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Comments
Hope this helps. Also, any of you guys that hate that annoying back up beeping noise which serves no purpose to anyone outside and seems to only be for morons not knowing they are in reverse, google "annoying backup beeping noise toyota prius". This also can get rid of that seatbelt beeping noise. Sorry to put this on the Highlander post, but I didn't know if you had the same problem. - Brenda
I do not know if we can do it ourselves, it requires knowing the engine temperature and the coolant temperature. it also involves a rather dangerous step (see below). I will be happy to email the doc to you if you tell me how.
I originally had copyright concern but more importantly, there is a dangerous step that requires putting the car in "D" (Drive), put one foot on the brake and the other foot revving the power up way high. If someone does this wrong and sends his or her HH through a fence or a garage door or goodness forbid, the HH hits a person, it is suddenly very serious business.
Parking brake is not a trusted safety device during the above procedure because of this car's power and torque. Even with parking brake set, the car will move if you step on the power and put it in D.
My personal preference and recommendation is to have a shop do this whole procedure because of the safety concern.
The TSB also says that if the auxiliary battery charge is low (less than 7V?), the engine will run longer regardless of whether the ISC Learning is set. So that little 12V has a huge role to play in ISC Learning and engine burn rate. The bold-italics is not a "quote" but a paraphrase from the TSB.
ps.
For those owners who do not believe the 06, 07 HH always runs its engine upon start-up, the TSB states this clearly when describing the process of checking whether the ISC Learning procedure has been completed. It says the following:
...
4. Turn the key back to "READY ON"
5. Wait for the engine to start and run through its initial startup cycle and shut off.
...
If Toyota TSB says it, then this proves beyond any doubt that the '06, '07 version runs its gas engine upon start-up. It is not a bug or a fluke, it is a design decision.
We still run the hot air when we must. We are having a dry winter and the tire pressure is set to 37-psi. Last year, I had it at 35-psi. These are not the stock tires, we changed them to tires that can handle psi up to 44. So 37 is safe.
To share some experience with you by referring to your questions:
(1) We never wait. If it says ready, I would get it rolling. For the first few seconds (10?), it will run on electric to get rolling and then the normal 30-sec engine burn comes on. For us, it is a downhill so the burn does not cost too much.
(2) At an intersection, we just get going and not worry about gas or electric. We briskly get up to speed and then either CRUISE or we "feather" the gas pedal so the power meter hovers close to the zebra region. It depends on traffic and speed limit.
(3) 20's is low but the cold may have something to do with it. I am speculating of course, no way to know for sure.
Have you talked to the local mechanic about the ISC Learning procedure? It has to do with the 12V auxiliary battery. If it has been disconnected or it is at less than 7V, the gas engine computer will lose settings it uses to control hybrid battery charging cycle. This will end up running the gas engine more often and longer. Toyota issued a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) last year. It may be worth taking it to the shop and have them check to see if the ISC Learning is set to COMPLETE. The TSB is EG026-05 Revised February 27, 2006.
The TSB also says that if the 12V is running low, all bets are off. The gas engine will run more often than it should even with the ISC set to COMPLETE. That little 12V is beginning to look "bigger" than its size.
I did not know about the 7 volt barrier. Are there ways to monitor the battery charge as it ages? Can we reset this ourselves?
The part of learning that states "This procedure allows the I.C. (internal combustion) Engine to re–learn its optimal idle speed during the initial engine warm–up cycle". Based on the time of year (summer vs winter) could this be why a warm-up cycle may be significantly different for various owners?
I have always sort of ran a battery till it would not work, but that $89.00 charge (in 2007) from Toyota on top of a new battery will have me rethink that.
So far, the 1st tank is at about 21 mpg, but for over half of that tank, I was showing only about 16mpg, so it went up quite a bit on the last portion. I assume it is learning. And we have had record lows for over half those days.
Also, as to worse winter mileage, that has been true in every car I have owned. Some due to warming up, running heaters and such, some due to the change to winter blend gas. It has always dropped 3-5 mpg. Just because I have a hybrid, I would not expect this to be much different.
"To our surprise, the IRS has recently disclosed in the last month that many HH purchasers will only see a fraction of their $2,600 credit (assuming you purchased before 10/1/06) due to the limitations imposed by the imposed by the alternative minimum tax.
FYI - This was stated in the in the Tax law that provides the rebates, was widely written about, and even brought up at the dealership.
Some info to share:
I did not know about the 7 volt barrier. Are there ways to monitor the battery charge as it ages? Can we reset this ourselves?
I plan to use a simple voltmeter to check periodically. We also have a solar power trickle charger that we use once in a while. As for reseting, do you mean reseting the ISC Learning procedure? If so, please read my posts today regarding this. There is a step that is rather dangerous. I would rather pay the $89 for a shop to do it.
The part of learning that states ... could this be why a warm-up cycle may be significantly different for various owners?
You likely hit this right on the nail. From reading the TSB and technical document, each HH is able to learn its own optimal operating parameters by accounting for engine wear, load and other factors that are unique to each car and driver. So it is definitely possible that some HH will run differently than others if the differences are great enough. In our case, we have noticed that on a very cold morning, say about 35-F, the warm-up period could exceed 30 seconds. We have never timed it but it felt like may be 40 to 50 seconds. If it was 25-F, we have experienced it running for up to a couple of miles of driving. I remember this because I used to get all upset trying to figure out why it kept running and burning gas!
On rare occasions, we have experienced the ICE suddenly running more often than usual. It happened in winter and summer. It would begin one morning upon the day's first start-up and last for half a day or more. We could not figure why the sudden change. The engine would run more often and significantly longer. Now I am wondering if we had left something ON overnight and ran the battery charge down to or just below 7V.
I have better go find my volt meter
billgold@toast.net
Thanks a lot!
Good luck!
While still in HS, I rebuilt a Mustang in our garage and was showing off one night. I had it in reverse, foot on clutch, was revving the engine waiting for the garage door to finish rising. THen my left foot twitched, the beast jumped into gear and promptly wedged itself into a half-open garage door. Scrapped up the trunk and scratched up the rear glass. Garage door was a goner. It was winter in MI and my family was definitely not pleased. My friends got a good laugh.
Sorry hosts, had to share that story
So your advice of doing this somewhere wide open with nothing around is important.
Have fun and please let us know how it works out!
The best highway mileage has been 27.9 mpg actual and 29.0 mpg, digital readout, driving at 70/55 mph with AC in hills/mountains with a moderate tail wind. The worst highway mileage has been 21.4 mpg actual and 22.4 mpg, digital readout, while driving at 77 mph with AC in hills against a stiff wind.
Best around town mileage has been 29.2 mpg actual and 30.7 mpg digital readout while driving in and around town with max of 55 mph speed and no AC.
A driving experiment I have tried on a 55 mile isolated flat country road route on a calm day has yielded my best interval mileage of 36.6 mpg, digital readout. The technique involved starting with a full tank of gas and driving 55 mph on cruise control until the computer graphics icon showed the battery charged to midway of the plus sign. Then, coasting to 37 mph and setting the cruise control and running on the battery until the engine kicked on, kicking down the cruise control to 36 mph, running on battery until the engine kicked on, kicking down the speed to 35 mph and repeating running on battery. The runs were 3-5 miles at 55 mph charging the battery and 0.7 to 1.2 miles on the battery at 37-35mph. About 10 of these cycles were required to make the 55 miles. What was interesting was that the average mileage increased from 30 mpg to 36.6 mpg, digital readout, over the 55 miles and was still increasing when finished. The experiment showed me the mpg potential of the vehicle but, for safety reasons, I would not recommend driving this way in traffic. I can not wait for the PHEV version of the HH.
I bought a new 2007 HH Limited AWD without nav on March 30, 2007. I've driven it almost 2000 miles, filled up the tank (no top off) three times and average 30 MPG (miles driven/gallons used)in combination city-freeway driving. I follow the "pulse, feather, glide" technique mentioned in this and other forums. And, just as an experiment, I am limiting myself to 55 MPH on the freeway.
I am always looking for ways to improve mileage. Any suggestions?
Happy driving,
Inndriver
If by freeway, you mean interstate (65-70 mph speed limits), I would be very concerned about your safety and those around you. Than is much to slow to be safe in traffic going 70 (and probably plus)
If the driver is in the rightmost lane, he or she is doing something perfectly legal and being courteous. Maximum speed is 65, not minimum speed. Legally and theoretically speaking, no one has to go 65 but almost everyone does and more. Trucks and cars with trailers are by law, limited to 55, at least in CA. So 55 is perfectly fine in the rightmost lane. If the HH is doing 55 in the fast lane or other lanes other than the rightmost lane, then I will agree that it is a problem.
Taking this the other direction, I drive 60 in the rightmost lane and crazy drivers would zip up to my butt trying to push me along. That is plain stupid.
I have seen GM Envoy towing a large 3-horse-trailer zipping along at 70-mph. I have seen delivery trucks going 75 in the leftmost lane. I have seen Lexus monster SUV going 80 weaving in and out of other lanes. All those morons are much worse than a HH driver doing 55 in the rightmost lane.
If doing 55 mph buys me 30-MPG versus 28-MPG and I can do it safely without impacting other people, why not? What is not to like?
Personally, I would never drive less than 5 under (or over) the posted limit. The biggest danger on interstates is coming up behind someone to fast (whether that car is speeding or the other car is to slow - both pose a hazard) and not having any place to bail out. Bad for both cars.
There are more speeders on the road than slow ones. There are more reckless stupid drivers out there endangering everyone else than slow ones too. So why focus on us penny-pinchers?
That said, I am finally pushing 29 MPG with summer gas. Yeehaa!
We have gotten 23 -24 mpg driving 70 -80 with a Thule Evolution Cargo Box on our '06 Hh. Worst was still over 20 mpg.
Averaged 29.1 mpg for the last fill up, a little over 1/3 of a tank. I did use P and G and golf cart speeds in an attempt to drain the traction batteries.
I recently purchased a ScanGauge II, which plugs into the OBD II port under the dash. It shows REAL TIME mph, mpg, engine temp, and a bunch of other factors, plus it will show you your trip mpg and tank mpg among other things. I find that watching it, I can choose whether to rev up and use more gas or not based on real-time performance numbers. It has adjustment factors for when you fill up your tank each time so you can match the pump's readout. It's fun - and I am not a high-tech person!
Also, I plan on installing a block heater, as the worst mileage is in the first 5 miles when the car is warming up. The block heater can be plugged into an outlet with a timer, so it will go on 4 hours before I drive it in the morning. Toyota dealers can get the block heater for you (part #00213-00644), but they'll tell you that you don't need it. Of course, you don't need it to help start your car - but it will improve your mileage, especially if you live in a cold climate like I do (Wisconsin).
Finally, read tips & techniques on cleanmpg.com There are some great suggestions there.
If the freeway is hilly, if speed is over 65, 70 or 75 or 80 or changing constantly, if tire pressure is too low, if engine condition is not great, if the car is heavily loaded with people or even just one driver with a load of things in the trunk, then all these factors can combined to impact the MPG.
I believe the HH software is designed to work well at freeway speed up to 60-MPH. It does not seem to do much at 65-MPH, kind of disappointing if this is true.
When our HH has a good solid charge, the battery kicks in often to help the car along at 60-MPH. We see it on the energy flow screen all the time. On somewhat flatter terrain, this often gives us 30-35 MPG (intermediate only) for the 32+ miles trip one-way that we take. At 55-MPH, it can do even better giving us up to 37-45 MPG (intermediate) for the 45+ mile trip we take one-way.
Unfortunately, once we go over 60 or once we get to 65-MPH, the battery kicks in less. May be aerodynamics and physics is forcing the ICE to run more, may be the software is still stuck in the old days of 55-MPH Speed Limit rather than the 65-MPH limit
If I live in flat country like NV or AZ or just flat areas of CA, our HH can easily get up to 30-MPG if I just go 60-MPH on freeways (not on I-5 though) and nice and easy on city streets.
THEY (Toyota) don't say it gets any gas mileage. The United States EPA tests the cars, and the manufacturers are required to post what the EPA ratings are. The EPA tests are very outdated, and in an attempt to get them closer to what the people are actually getting, they (EPA) are adjusting the figures down for 2008+ cars.
For an eye opener as to how the tests are done, try searching the web for: EPA Fuel mileage tests.
Well, sort of. The EPA makes the testing rules, but most vehicles are actually tested by the manufacturers, not the EPA.
Glad the tests were re-tooled though !!
My scangauge reading was 5 MPG less than the actual MPG.
I thought the hybrid system is not worth it, until I cross checked with actual hand calculation at the pump.
Now that I know the actual fuel mileage, I am very happy.
No other AWD SUV can touch that, except Ford escape but the escape is a 4 cylinder, less powerfull, slower, noisier and rougher.
Regarding the scangauge, it needs to be cross checked against actual MPG. Since it is a little bit off. It reads 2 MPG more than the actual MPG in my Subaru outback. It is also 1 MPG less than the comptuter read out in my Sienna.
Bought June 1, 2006
Odometer now has 10595 miles.
According to my glovebox log book,
we've put in 448.5 gals into the SUV.
Calculates out to 23.6 mpg.
Mostly rural city type driving.
Sticker numbers in very large
eye-catching font says 31 city and 27 highway.
I'm a little disappointed in the results.
Huh? That is two different driving cycles.
Have you attempted the various gas saving techniques?
Many of the gas saving techniques are practiced as much as possible. I'm under the belief that "conservative" driving should be all that is needed to attain "near" EPA specs. Please don't be offended, but anything more then that, seems to me, like needing to jump through hoops. I'd rather just relax and drive.
That is most likely your problem. Hybrids are very sensitive to short trips - the engine has to warm up the catalytic converter, and thus it runs all the time. For longer trips the hybrid components have more effect.
I owned a 2003 Honda CR-V; 26 MPG @ 80 MPH is exactly what I always registered.
I think the hybrid is not as useful at highway speeds...
The 2007 HH is a mid-size V6 SUV that weighs 4200+ lbs. It has emission rating of SULEV II or EPA grades or 7,9 (higher is better). It can haul 3500-lbs. For the speedster-owners, it can accelerate like a bat out of . Yet, this owner can get 26-MPG.
The Honda CRV is a small SUV using a 4-cyclinder small engine. The 2007 version scored a 6,7 respectively from EPA. Not bad for the CRV but still 1,2 points less than the HH, a gas-electric vehicle in a larger class.
So in terms of ability to do more work, carry more load, cargo volume, MPG and emission, the gas-electric is still a better engine choice.
As for hybrids being not as useful at highway speeds, that is not always true. I see this generalized claim a lot but no one has stated clearly what is considered useful in contrast?
Even in the first generation HH, the V6 2006 HH, the battery turns ON to assist in keeping our HH cruising along at 65-MPH. When it does that, the mileage (intermediate) shoots up anywhere from 35-45 MPG. If there is a head wind, it may drop to 30-MPG. If there is a tail wind, it will reach 45-MPG easily. This is most apparent whenever we drive the flat stretch of HWY 101 south of San Jose all the way to San Juan Bautista, about 30+ miles. If I only commute on that stretch everyday, I am sure to easily get 30-MPG average on our HH.
To be more specific, I can drive at speed limit from San Jose to Watsonville via 85->101->129 and back and get an intermediate MPG of 26. If I am the only person in the car, no gear and I drive 60 on 85+101 and 55 on 129, then I have been able to get 27+ MPG.
As of today, July 2007
With the 2008 HH coming this fall, the ECON mode gets the MPG up to 28-MPG. I will love to see FORD, GM, Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai or whoever put out a car in that same class, with the same performance, getting the same 28-MPG and the same SULEV II rating.
Gas-Electric is just one engine choice, like diesel, diesel-electric, gas or biodiesel. They each have advantages and disadvantages. For a car as big as the HH, until someone can point to a specific example, citing specific test results, the only cleaner and more efficient engine choice currently in production is gas-electric.
I've had my 2007 HH FWD Limited w/Nav for a bit over 3 months now. My average MPG over that time has been just a bit over 28mpg. Mostly rural/highway driving w/maybe 10% city traffic (Charlottesville, VA). My best mpg was 29.8 and my worst has been 26.1. I calculate manually as the onboard cpu seems a bit generous in its numbers. I attribute that 26.1mpg to being a bit aggressive with the go pedal too frequently. The 29.8 mpg figure was when I first got the car and was driving very conservatively and not using the AC. Not sure why the AC would affect mpg as it runs off the batteries but maybe the ICE must run more frequently to keep the Batteries up due to AC use.
Not sure why some of the other HH owners are stuck in the low 20's - maybe its the fuel formula that is used in different regions of the country for environmental reasons.
All in all, I am quite pleased with my HH. Very comfortable and quiet, impressive fit/finish and great mpg for such a good-sized vehicle. The 2008 model has a few features I like but I am guessing the price will be at least 40K for a similarly equipped 2007 HH.
BTW, I changed the oil in the HH last week. A very easy task as long as you have a cup-type oil filter wrench that fits over the end of the filter. There is even a little drain pan right under the filter! This allows the runoff to drain right into the drain pan I placed under the car and not all over the engine or nearby components. No muss, no fuss - the cleanest oil change I've done yet.
Regards - M. J. McCloskey
If you will check the interior dimensions for the Gen 2 CR-V, I think you will find them comparable to the (pre 2008) HH. Granted, you don't want to tow with a CR-V (max 1500 lbs). However, that CR-V is available at a far lower actual out-the-door cost than the HH. And the Honda has a simpler engine / drivetrain - it will still be going strong in 10 years, no concerns about the traction battery or electrical motors.
To each his own, of course. As you note, they are different breeds. However, (as I note), for my comparison of Gen 2 vs pre-2008 HH, for basic transportation and capacities they perform a similar function.
My comments are based on the '06 HH, you will have to examine if it applies to the '07.
I would suggest the following:
1. Check tire pressure. I learned from other owners here that higher (within safety limits) air pressure helps. In our case, we use one that can take up to 44-psi, so we pump it up to 37 psi cold instead of the recommended 32 psi.
2. Break-in. We babied our HH for the first 6 months and tried to drive extra gently to "save" gas. We got no better than 22 MPG for the first 2500+ miles. A tad better, I think 24 for the next 2500 miles. Finally popped up to 26 with a glimpse of 27 at the 5000-mile service. I have never really believed in long break-in but this car takes forever to break in. We could not get consistent 27-28 in normal bay area driving until we got past the first 20,000 miles. Ouch!
3. In the '06 version, there was a problem with the ISL - Idle Speed Learning procedure. If the little auxiliary (not the traction battery) is disconnected or runs down below 12V, the drive engine will lose its parameters for keeping the car running at tip-top shape. Toyota bulletin says the car will have lower mileage and louder gear clanking, gas engine will run much longer than normal. The dealership can check this for you to see if it has been set correctly.
I would start with the above 3 and see if they help. The rest is just driving techniques and car breaking in.
I did not want this car at first. I like its emission rating but it was expensive, first-gen, and seemed wimpy on range roads to me. My wife wanted it and that was that
If you happen to be in the same region as I, we can trade driving experience along same stretch of freeway.
I live in the Oakland Bay Area so there are some hills, some highway, lots of city. Really a little of everything. But I'm still at 22.
That area is very hilly, with a lot of small streets and gerzillion street lights. Too many street lights close to each other makes it tough. If there is no traffic, we can use electric to move from light to light, if there is traffic, I have to get rolling and the gas engines kicks in but then I can coast earlier too as the car coasts well.
One trick I have used whenever I am the first car or if there is no traffic, I would quickly pick up speed from stop to 25 or 30 and let it coast to the next light. This is possible for most of the lights in that area. Some half-block ones are impossible so I do not bother. The quick start burns little gas and the coast recharge the car batteries so it can be used later to cruise on electric-only in slow traffic or from light to light. I do this a lot in Oakland Chinatown area (dim sum runs
Another trick is to get up to speed and depending on traffic condition, gently press down on the accelerator so the needle stays near the top of but inside the zebra region ('06 version). This either kicks in the electric-power only to keep the momentum going or even if the gas engine kicks in, it runs at low RPM and uses less gas.
I notice the HH seems most efficient at around 30-MPH when cllimbing a hill. On-board MPG read-out often returns 10+ MPG at this speed even up some rather steep hill. I do not lose much at the final tank computation. You can see if this is possible in the hills you have to negotiate.
If possible, use of momentum helps too. Another owner who posted here shared this trick last year. As you head downhill to a dip before the next hill, use the accelerator to maintain or increase momemtum safely downhill as you enter the dip and as you climb, give it a little more power and then ease off and reduce power as the car reaches the peak for another downhill run. The goal here is not to maintain a set speed to the top but use no more power than absolutely necessary to reach the peak for the next downhill. Of course, the car will slow as it climbs and approaches the peak while you reduce power. You will have to decide how slow before it becomes unsafe or impractical. You may have to do this a few times to learn to time the easing off process just right.
Too slow, you will end up having to step on it half way up to give more power, this will burn more gas. Too fast, and the car will rocket to the top in a blink
Same trick for when you start from a stop to climb up a hill. Gauge the climb and power needed and traffic condition so you can give it a go and then ease off as it slowly nears the peak. On some hills, the climb is so steep, all bets are off, so I just move at a reasonable speed to climb. The quick start works well if you are the lead car because the HH will move off real quick and reach posted speed half way up while the other cars are still laboring up the hill. By the time you slow enough at the peak, they will barely be catching up, then it is all downhill again at safe posted speed. So you can save some gas and not block traffic.
All these of course assumes safe speed only, either below speed limit or at posted speed. Sorry it is long winded but hopefully, these are tricks that can help you a bit.
It actually is impressive you can get 22 MPG on the HH in that area. As it breaks in more, may be 5000+ or 7500+, you may start seeing 24-MPG on occassion. Given that terrain, it will be interesting to see if it can ever get 26-MPG.
I may be going up into Montclair again next week, will see what mileage I can get.