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I am happy with it. I believe that the LA Times review by Dan Neil reported 0-60 mph times of about 6.7 seconds.
We have the '06 and test drove an '08, the following is a combo of our '06 experience and impression of the '08. First off, hypermiling is fun and addictive but unnecessary in most cases unless you want spectacular MPG.
If you are a mild driver, then how many people/things you carry, tire pressure, summer vs. winter gas, terrain, traffic patterns and even wind can impact MPG. The heavier the car, the lower the tire pressure, winter gas, challenging terrain, short light-to-light stop and go and stiff headwind can impact MPG from tank to tank. Deal with those factors, hypermiling becomes just a hobby.
One thing about jack-rabbiting, the '08 HH is very smooth and quiet (more so than our '06) and can accelerate very quickly (ECON=OFF) without you knowing it. So relearning that characteristic is important. A gentle tap on a gas engine car may be considered "gentle" but the same tap on the HH may have it out-accelerating other cars and come up to speed in a blink. We have had to learn to really soften our tap in our '06, same is true for the '08.
2008 has an EV switch and an "ECON" switch. These two addressed our biggest gripes on our '06 HH. We are really glad Toyota "listened".
When batteries are charged up, EV mode allows one to drive 1 mile on electric only, no gas engine at all. On favorable terrain and a stiff tailwind, we rolled the '08 on electric-only for about 1.5 mile in our test drive. The sales guy was impressed and said he would do the same for the next couple test driving the car
The ECON mode tempers the power curve so that instead of instant torque and get-up performance, it is much slower and gentler with acceleration. This is a fantastic mode to use on gentle rolling terrain on CRUISE. It can really save gas. If we buy the '08, I would have ECON on whenever I can CRUISE.
The car cannot self-detect terrain nor your intention so we cannot just drive the '08 HH normally (even when gently) like a gas engine car and expect to get fabulous MPG. We will need to learn the characteristics of the car and its features (EV, ECON) to take full advantage of the available technologies. Our test-drive experience showed that with judicious use of EV and ECON modes, and by picking favorable terrain and traffic pattern, the '08 can get really decent MPG for a mid-size high-power SUV; better than our '06. Without EV and ECON, in challenging terrain, in frequent stop-and-go traffic, MPG will still be better than comparable gas-engine car but may not be as dramatic. It could be a difference of 20-MPG (other SUV) vs. 24-MPG for the '08 HH without any work but 20 vs 26+ if we learn to take advantage of the EV and ECON modes.
Our '06 now gets 26-MPG on average on summer gas. If I choose the road carefully and drive 5-MPH lower than posted limit, I can get about 28-MPG. If I hypermile, our '06 eeks out 29+ MPG but our area and traffic pattern rarely allow this.
Good luck with your '08 research!
If you can live with a smaller car, consider the Ford Escape Hybrid. The FWD is rated at 34 city / 31 highway (2009). They are hard to find, since Ford is only making 25K for 2009. The 2009 has a number of improvements over the 2008.
However, it is a smaller vehicle and only seats 5.
One other note. The HH rides soft, the FEH rides firm, more like a truck or SUV.
I am happy to report that my average is more than 30 mpg. That is about 85 % highway. I thought that I had to sacrifice speed to get this kind of mileage but not anymore. By driving as if you are driving a bicycle, you get the most fuel economy. That is to say, accelerating when there is downhill and maximizing the use of momentum that is gained, avoid accelerating on uphill but apply the same power as if you are on level ground and let the speed fall as you go up (just like in a bicycle). Coast as much as you can to the next stop. Avoid rapid acceleration and deceleration.
I had no problem going above traffic speed and still get more than 30 mpg.
In the end, it is all about driving technique since I even get much better highway MPG on my wife's subaru outback (35 mpg).
Now that I have had my Highlander for 2 months and 3000 miles, and have kept logs of fuel consumption, I think I can help contribute to the discussion. The first thing I noticed is that the cause of very low mileage results is most likely driving style. It would seem that many people believe the mere act of buying a hybrid assures them of optimal mileage, regardless of how they drive. Think of all the cars you see ahead of you accelerating with excess non-ignited fuel dripping (pouring) out of their exhaust. Floor the hybrid and the mileage will be poor - probably better than a non-hybrid, but not up to EPA numbers.
I have found that my mileage exceeds the 27/25 EPA estimates, and I have also become acutely aware of my "gas pedal habits" because of two items in the hybrid - the multi-information screen showing the EV/ICE use, and the economy bars on the Kv Power Meter. If you keep the indicator within the economy bars you can typically beat the EPA numbers and still not seem like a "snail", though you will not experience any "G-Forces" on acceleration.
Over the two months I have averaged just of 26mpg, with a low of 24 and a high of 29 for individual tanks. 90% of my driving is a variation on local, as I live in a semi-rural area that puts us on 45-50mph roads for 15 mile (one way) trips to the closest malls and major shopping areas. I say this because local travel to me is not a lot of stop and go (where hybrids supposedly excel) but rather more like highway, where they do not. My true highway mileage (70+mph interstate) experience has been where we have gotten the greatest mileage (27-29mpg).
I calculate my mileage by only filling up each time, and by dividing the gallons into the actual miles since last fillup. I have been gaging this vs the multi-display indicator mileage estimates and find that the car is a bit optimistic by about 1mpg. My Infiniti was extremely accurate with its onboard computer estimates, so I was a bit spoiled.
Miles Gal Mileage
345 11.9 29
364 14.5 25.1
129 5.9 26.9
321 12.3 26.1
338 13.1 25.8
261 9.3 28
315 12.9 24.4 (lots of idling with heavy A/C use)
323 12.8 25.2
309 11.8 26.2
I have noticed that my mileage has been down a bit lately and that has coincided with very hot conditions (near Philadelphia) this past couple of weeks.
Overall very pleased with the choice as we needed more space and am really glad now that I did not go for the Lexus GX470 as I would be kicking myself at every fillup at $4/gal.
1. Tire inflation to 36 - 38 on all 4.
2. Slow and gradual push of the accelerator pedal, - plateau - , and then slow and gradual release. Repeat the process all over (pulse and glide or you can do pulse and feather). This is how you get >30 MPG in the city.
3. Slow and gradual push of brake pedal for max regen. The regen portion of blended braking works best with gradual pedal motion.
4. With cruise control "on", max MPG is at 47 MPH (35 MPG), it gets 28-30 MPG at 55-57MPH, Fuel consumption drops horribly above 57 mph.
5. Without cruise control, drive as if you are riding a bicycle,,,, accelerating on the downhill to gather momentum for the next uphill or use it for maximum coasting distance. Apply constant (level speed) power even on uphill and allow your car to gradually slow down as you move up.
6. Use of 0-20 toyota synthetic oil.
7. On hilly places, park your car facing downhill. Start your car and immediately shift to neutral (engine will not start) and let it coast as far down as possible before you shift to drive.
Good luck
I want to focus on only one aspect of "cold" weather mileage drops. This observation is based on 18 mo. (18,000 mi.) of driving a 2007 HH Limited 4WDi. It rarely gets below freezing where I live but, when outside temp is below about 50 deg F., I notice that it takes a lot more driving to get the ICE to shut off and the batteries to take over. Engine cylinder head temperature is already well warmed up but something about cooler weather delays the batteries.
What is that "something?" And, here is my point or my question: Is that "something" a sensor different than the engine temp gauge? If so, can that "something" be tricked, modified, or bypassed to permit earlier electric motor activation in cold weather?
Anyone?
BTW, I have kept track of every gallon of fuel used and every mile driven, and my average has been 28.5 MPG, with about 50-50 highway/city driving. My highway driving has been at 55 MPH and I drive conservatively.
Respectfully,
Inndriver
P.S. What's the latest on aftermarket mods for plug-ins? Any actually installed on HH?
The Catalytic Converter also has to get up to temp, in fact, this is why the engine runs - just to heat up that part.
I am not sure that is correct. I have a block heater on my '08 HH which will bring the temp sensor up to almost operating temperature in mild weather (50 F). The car will back out of my garage on the traction motors and I can then hear the ICE start. It will shut down at stops after running only a minute or two. I do not believe that this is long enough to have brought the cat. up to operating temperature.
I am not sure that is correct. I have a block heater on my '08 HH which will bring the temp sensor up to almost operating temperature in mild weather (50 F). The car will back out of my garage on the traction motors and I can then hear the ICE start. It will shut down at stops after running only a minute or two. I do not believe that this is long enough to have brought the cat. up to operating temperature. "
I'm pretty sure on this. All the hybrids have to get that converter up to temp due to pollution controls. The Prius has a hot thermos bottle that stores the engine coolant, which speeds up the process. By using a block heater you are doing essentially the same thing.
My FEH runs for about 5 minutes before allowing EV mode - in Socal summer conditions.
It really bugs me with my 2008 FEH, which won't run on electric only until everything is warmed up. I sometimes want to move the car only a hundred feet or so - and the engine has to come on...
1. My gas mileage has gone down starting at least last June '08.
2. My ICE seems to run most of the time and even takes more time than usual to shut down at stop lights. Also, when coasting long distances, the ICE usually did not shut down.
3. My car used to go into battery only drive when traveling at a steady slow speed (about 30 - 40 mph) but it rarely goes into battery only now.
4. I was only getting about 24.5 mpg around town.
5. If you don't find anything wrong, will you reset the "learning computer"? (answer was Yes)
6. Will you check the hybrid battery for performance? (answer was Yes)
I then left my car.
After returning to pick up my car, I was told:
1. The mechanic found no "out of limit" alarms so the car seems to be operating normally. ( I assume that the dealer checked the OBD ii indications which I could have told him that I had received NO warning lights.) As I know that there are several temperature inputs to the computer that may keep the ICE on line, I asked if those out of limit checks would tell the mech if ALL temperature inputs were working correctly. I got no answer.
2. I asked if the hybrid battery was performance checked. The answer was NO. In fact, the service rep said further, we cannot even charge a dead hybrid battery and if that needs to be done the Toyota rep must be called in to do it himself.
3. I asked if the hybrid learning computer was reset. "No, that computer cannot be reset."
4. I told the service rep that I was going to leave tomorrow on another 1400 mile trip and I will again see how my mileage performs, but when I return I will be a little over my 36,000 miles. But I reported to you the dealer that I had a problem before my warranty ran out. He said if I still feel I have a problem after returning, bring the car back in but "don't wait too long."
The mpg on this trip was 25.5mpg, the worst I have ever seen on a trip. A few days later I went by the dealer. I told the service rep that I still have the mileage problem, that there isn't any reason for you, the dealer to look at it again since all you're going to do is check the "out of limit" alarms, and that I need some answers that I haven't received so far. I told him that I would like to be scheduled to talk with a Toyota rep that is knowledgeable in the hybrid system. Hopefully, he will be able to explain to me why my car is still functioning properly. I also told the rep that my batteries are under warranty by Toyota not the local dealer so if they need to be tested, then they should be tested. The rep said it would be fine with him for me to see the Toyota rep but he didn't know the reps schedule. Said he will check with his manager. A couple of minutes later he returned and said that the service shop manager would like to talk with me if I had the time. "Great, I do have the time." The manager came out and we talked a few minutes. He then wanted to see my car. We walked to where it was parked. He looked at my tires and noted that I had replaced them from original. Yes, but the rolling resistance is "good" as per Consumer Reports, I said. He then proceeded to disconnect the Negative battery cable (not hybrid battery but the normal battery found under the hood). He told me that by leaving the cable disconnected for about 10 minutes will computer reset the computer!! I told him that I was told that resetting the computer could not be done. No comment.
Let me stop this long winded story here. After the computer was reset, my car now opeates as it did for the first 20,0000 miles or so. The ICE shuts down often, even short coasting events. Since the computer was reset, I have averaged 29.2 mpg for the first 134 miles, expressway and stop & go!!!!
Moral of the story, you can reset your computer yourself by disconnecting the negative cable of the normal battery (not hybrid) for at least 10 minutes. Another thought: be aware of your car and try to understand the technical aspects of how it works. Armed with this knowledge will help you when receiving service from your dealer.
I assume the "reset" refers to the ISL or Idle Speed Learning reset?
Sorry you had to go through all this. I remember several of us posted about this nearly two years ago. Back then, several of us were noticing sudden improvements in mileage after service and we were trying to find out why. Someone posted the ISL "reset" note.
The ISL "reset" happens when the battery is disconnected, then the computer has to relearn everything as the car is driven again. There is no way for Toyota service to set anything that can influence the ISL. Our local Toyota mechanic explained this to me when the ISL Tech Bulletin was out in '06 or '07 for the '06 HH.
He said the most they could do was to test drive the car gently to get the learning process rolling but the mileage improvement will come after we start using the car.
Glad you are getting great mileage again!
Tire pressures on the display were showing a variance from 33 to 43 psi, but when I checked at the gas station (manually), all were just above 31psi.
Also, could someone post the major points of getting the best gas mileage? I read through the first 9 pages of this post, but to go through all 40 pages...UGH!
Thanks in advance,
Gusto
p.s. I notice the gas engine will frequently turn on when we turn the car on, even while we're sitting in the driveway and the battery shows almost a full charge. Is this normal?
1 - Multiple tanks of gas to break in. It really took 2000 miles or so to stabilize our mileage.
2 - Driving habits. Anticipating accelerations and learn to "glide" helped a bit.
3- Tire inflation. We inflated to the tire limits and that helped a bit.
4- Location, location, location. - We lived in a relatively hilly area and those short trips always included going up and down a series of moderate "hills". When we moved to the (flat) burbs our mileage improved by about 3-4 mpg.
Good luck, be patient and enjoy the ride. It's not a bad car at all.
I returned hauling almost 500 lbs. of my daughter's possessions in the back of the car. That dropped my milage to 29.5 for the first 655 miles of the trip (I filled up about 85 miles east of home).
Thanks again,
Gusto
I don't have a 2008-09 HH, I have a 2007 HH FWD. I reside in central VA. Anyway, I believe the A/C in the 2006-2009 HH is electric and runs off the battieries so it shouldn't have that much of an affect on your MPG. I was stuck in a traffic backup for about 20 minutes last Summer. The ICE was off most of the time but did cycle on/off for brief periods to keep the batteries at a certain level while the A/C continued to pump out cold air. I have been averaging 26-27 MPG during the cooler months and have gotten over 29 MPG during the Spring/Summer early Fall timeframe. I've had my HH for a bit over 2 years and am extremely pleased with the overall quality, performance and MPG.
Regards -
M. J. McCloskey
There are sites on hyper-miling you might want to read. The first thing is to increase your tire pressure. I run mine (2008 HH) at 39 psi. This is within the limits for the tires.
This past week I had the pleasure of being the sole driver of our HH for 2 straight days, and drove it over a 100 miles with a mix of city and highway driving, probably 50-50. By doing the things previously stated on the board - we had just filled the tank up the day before- I was averaging between 25-27 mpg. I quickly came to realize my wife wasn't adjusting her driving style to the hybrid synergy drive.
A couple of quick notes:
1. Trying to coast as much as possible
2. Trying to keep the power meter on the very bottom 2 bars seems to use the electric motor more
3. Cruise control on the freeway - Speeds of 75mph returning around 24-25mpg
4. Gently depressing the break while coasting downhill to optimize battery recharge
5. Letting your foot OFF the gas pedal when not accelerating (This kind of goes with coasting, but it's kind of habit, at least for me and my wife).
We did not inflate the tires up to 35psi yet. They're still running around 30-31 psi, so I'm thinking this will increase mileage a bit more too.
Thanks to all who've contributed to this forum.
Gusto
And from experience I speak, she probably won't change.
The second thing is how you use your gas and brake pedal. A slow/gradual but continuous downward motion on acceleration, and then slow/gradual but continuous upward motion of gas pedal when coasting, yields the best FE. Also a slow/gradual but continuous downward motion of brake pedal yields the best energy regeneration or battery recharging.
This can be hard to do unless you have to plan your speed and look 5 cars ahead or 1 to 2 blocks ahead so you can plan how you can exactly execute those slow/gradual pedal motions.
Don't mind if the engine is running or not since the computer will just sort it out for best FE.
For city driving accelerate moderately (not slowly and not jackrabbit quick) until you reach your desired speed then gradually release the gas then reapply just enough to maintain speed.
A slow and long duration build up of speed gets the worst FE. Acceleration phase should be brief. Maintaining steady speed gets best FE. Abrupt acceleration and braking hurts FE.
For highway, you can set the cruise from 50-65 mph and forget about it. Or you can regularly modulate the gas pedal without allowing power needle to go above the half mark on acceleration nor dip below the zebra when coasting.
I inflate to 34 psi on all 4 wheels.
My 2006 AWD HiHY averages 30 MPG per tank, 95% highway. With warm engine, I am getting unbelievable FE in the city trips, like 35-40 MPG. With cold engine my short city trips ranges from 17-25 MPG.
I am sure this will help you.
Please let me know if there are changes after you tried this technique.
Then, I searched one last time and saw the postings on ISL reset. (I had been looking since 1/09, but these are newer posts since I last searched in March.) I unhooked the negative terminal for 20minutes. Then, on our drive last night, I hit 25.8mpg on a highway trip that rapidly nosed over 26mpg on the last city stretch before home. I had been having trouble entering EV mode despite coasting and being light on the gas. Now, the car seems to prefer and enter EV at every possible opportunity!!!! Yeah!!!! I had begun to lose faith in out HH, as we bought it to avoid the SUV gas suck. 15mpg is not exactly hybrid-worthy, and the noticeable difference points out to me how important the tech/computer function is relative to the mechanical function in these highly sophisticated machines.
In conclusion, I believe that the ISL reset works in our 2008 HH as well.
Also, will it void my warranty to do that?
We live in SE AK and are considering buying a used highlander hybrid 4wd. Are you still getting poor millage in Anchorage? What issues should we consider before buying? We have a few days each winter with -0 temps. Thanks.
To top it off, Toyota is a part of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce that is fighting to have green standards limited. This is from a Move on email I just received: "The Chamber is spending millions fighting clean energy, and a long list of companies including Apple and Nike have backed away in protest.1
Toyota responded to our calls by shutting off their voice mail.
1. Replaced OEM tires and changed from 245/55R19 to 255/55R19
2. It got cold (I live in the south)
I didn't think the slightly larger tires would make much difference (maybe 1-2 mpg), but I could immediately feel resistance and mpg dropped to 22 city/20 hwy. Returned tires and went back to stock size and still only getting 21 mpg, but it hasn't gotten above freezing since tire swap.
I have taken to the dealer and they gave me the story of the bigger tires, weighing more, and winter gas having more alcohol but I still don't buy a 25% drop in winter. I read above about the ISL reset, so will try that and report back.
I have taken to the dealer and they gave me the story of the bigger tires, weighing more, and winter gas having more alcohol but I still don't buy a 25% drop in winter."
If you live in an area that does not use E10 (the maximum allowed for non-flex fuel cars) blend in the summer, but does in the winter, that would drop your milage by les than 2 mpg. However, cold weather, by itself, is hell on mpg. It is -20 F, headed to -30, here in NE North Dakota tonight :shades: . I have to drive longer distances to get the engine warm enough to defrost the windows, my mpg drops to 17-19 mpg. If I get a longer road trip, I get up to about 23 mpg.
The larger tires did two things: 1. They are heavier and 2. they cause your odometer to under record the distance you have driven (if even only a very small amount) thus reducing your calculated gas milage.
#2 wasn't much of an issue as I calculated actual mileage vs odometer and the difference was only 2%, my mpg was dropping 20-25% so it's more than just the size difference affecting the odometer reading.
It has started warming up here and mpg creeping up but still not like it was before.
When I asked about reseting ISL on another HiHy board, I was cautioned that it's a bad idea to purposely disconnect the battery. Doing so will require a trip to the dealer to reset the ISC. Can anyone who has disconnected the 12V terminal confirm or deny this?
We see the drop in our 450h as soon as it gets below 50 degrees outside; when it is in the 30's it starts getting more substantial. We don't go below 30's in N. Calif., so I would imagine that other states have a bigger drop.
Even with the drop, there is no better 7 seater (really 6 for older kids) vehicle at this time. I called Porsche int'l to check on the upcoming Cayenne/Tourag/Q7 or 5 hybrid for '11; they are not officially releasing info, but don't think it will seat more than 5, and price tag will be higher. They have a different hybrid system; predict 35 mpg for their models. Until seen, we still think we have the most gas efficient, low price tag suv out there!!
The hybrid models are not in the recall. They are completely "drive by wire" for power control.
"idon't need the 7 seats, just the room for dogs, and winter driving."
Toyota says you can buy the HH without the 3rd row, but good luck in actually getting one. The 3rd row does fold completely flat and there is good size storage behind the 2nd row with the 3rd row folded.
The one good/bad thing about the 3 row models is that the outboard 2nd row seats are very nice, but the center seat is only fit for a very small child.