Cadillac CTS/CTS-V

b4z · June 2003

CTS production is up.
Already 3800 untils have been built in the first 3 weeks of June.
30,000 in less than 6 months this year vs. 19,000 in 2002.

Looks like the have the capacity to build 60,000
CTS a year. More than double what they thought they were going to do.

If they sell an extra 30,000 CTSs and they have a average invoice of $32,500 that would boost Cadillac's sales by $975,000,000!!!!
If they made $7,000 on each one then that would be a profit of $210,000,000!!!
Talk about a home run for cadillac.
CTS is more popular than they ever dreamed.

Production of saleable SRX and XLR units starts on Monday.

SRX built along side CTS.

XLR at Corvette plant.

http://www.autonews.com/files/prod.pdf

wwhite2 · June 2003

ALL require a leveling system ,Cadillac uses a car leveling system so that is why those headlights are not offered a la carte . A la carte would probably cost a couple of grand

bezel leak . where does it go ? mine doesn't leak enough to go anywhere I think . It just condensates on the plastic . someday I will get a chance to bring it in for a revised bezel .

Price what is this $$32K price ceiling for half of CTS owners why 32K ?

Maybe CTS pricing will be affected by 1. much higher production numbers - maybe that will help keep price down
  Popularity - this will raise the pricing
  I think 03 prices were introductory
   Clock issue My clock was right until daylight savings time . that calibration knocked it off 2-3 minutes since then it is now in sync go figure .
  I have 10330 miles on my garnet red CTS LuxSport 5 spd manual all options except the auto trans . This car has been unbelievable .It is great to drive and there is SO much to learn with the Nav and other electronics ....the learning curve continues
   saving my pennies for a CTS-V Hope CTS trade in is decent

b4z · June 2003

PDX Sport Package has self leveling.

b4z · June 2003

I suspect they are 70 and 80 year olds who showed up at their longtime caddy dealership and that is all they needed.

sevenfeet0 · June 2003

I'm just repeating what my dealer told me. Half the buyers they get (this is in Atlanta) have that as their budget ceiling and want to go no further. If they want to get into a new Cadillac, then an base CTS is their only bet.

sevenfeet0 · June 2003

Given the choices of option groups on the 2003 CTS, I'm not surprised that Cadillac got some complaints but at least they are making changes that they feel with help the consumer.

Options packages are a classic "upsell" mechanism, which any good business wants to push their customers toward. The profit margins are higher, plain and simple. It also lowers the overall cost of manufacturing (installing entire groups usually lowers total manufacturing time) and inventory (fewer permutations for both Cadillac and the dealer network).

Customer generally prefer a la carte ordering, but this kind of flexibiity is pretty much gone these days. Porsche still does this, but their volumes and small and their profit margins are very high. Finding a medium between profit and flexibility is what the markerting and manufacturing folks generally try to achieve.

sevenfeet0 · June 2003

No, I don't work for GM, nor have I ever worked in the auto industry. Not that this matters since your point makes no sense.

Again, my point is that GM is free to do whatever marketing programs they see fit at whatever given time. And so is Ford, DaimlerChrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan etc. Just because you did a specific marketing program at one point does not mean that customers are entitled to it in perpetuity. That's completely ridiculous. We're talking about the marketplace, not Social Security or Medicare.

And just like you, I've owned a few GM cars. This CTS is my third Cadillac, and I'm still not 40 years old yet. I don't need to be lectured on customer loyalty.

Finally, I thought my comment about you writing a letter to GM's executives was being constructive. If you can't recognize that, then I'm not sure that anything I say is going to matter to you.

Moving on to the next topic...

berrycherry · June 2003

Finally found some one who had the prices correct, so you could choose what you wanted.

Mine comes up at $36845 with 1sb, rear seat folding and XM satellite.

http://www.markchristopher.com/

It comes up as Chevrolet but if you find your way , you can choose Cadillac.

Dont think they have recieved the 2004 yet. I submitted an application to see just what price they are offering now.

They are about $400 over invoice for a 2003 using CarsDirect

berrycherry

jemiller · June 2003

$32K price ceiling?

Fascinating.

Can Cadillac really make any money selling a car with the CTS' content level at $32K?

That's competing with the Acura TL and the Maxima, only much smaller BMWs and Audis at that point.

In the longer run, if Cadillac is successful in reinvigorating the brand, it may be necessary to push those buyers down to Pontiac.

Buick doesn't really fit in between, if GM even attempts to get them out of the motorized-walker market space it'll take ten-plus years to do it.

bingoman · June 2003

I find the attitude of some of the members of this board toward dealer pricing quite remarkable. They seem to think that they are entitled to purchase the car for dealer cost. There seems to be little understanding that the dealer is in business to make a profit. I wonder how many of these people work for non-profit companies or give away their products at cost.

The difference between what the dealer pays the factory for the car and what he sell it for is not profit. The dealer has a few expenses, like salaries for the salesperson, the receptionist, the people who clean and prepare the car, the cashier, and others. The dealer has to pay rent or mortgage payments for the showroom and sales offices. He/she has to pay the bank interest on the loans to pay for the cars while they sit on the lot waiting for a buyer. He/she may also pay for advertising to get you into the showroom to begin with. He/she also has to pay state and city taxes for the privilege of being in business. And if he/she is lucky, goes home with a little compensation at the end of the day.

And by the way, if the dealer is not conscientious and caring, and providing good customer support may have his/her franchise yanked by the factory. I personally have seen two dealers replaced by the factory for poor customer support, one Ford and one Cadillac.

So when you go to buy your next car bargain with the dealer, but remember that he is out to make a reasonable profit, not a killing. He knows what his product is worth. Go with knowledge of what the car cost the dealer, but don't expect the dealer to give it away without covering his costs and a little profit.

berrycherry · June 2003

Yes I would like to buy at dealer cost. You can see many GM cars that are sold at dealer cost, but maybe not a CTS. Some even below dealer cost. I look at carsdirect a lot.

Have you forgot about Dealer Holdback. It appears to be 3% on a Cadillac so on what I want to buy at $36845 would give them $1105. And remember they have advertising built into the invoice.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incentives/holdback/index.html

Many dealer like the quick profit that a new sale, via the intetrnet, even if close to dealer cost. That is if the car is new, so no flooring costs result. And we pay the shipping.

My comments.

berrycherry

batmanscts · June 2003

cu95, bingoman, and sevenfeet0: Well said with good points! Glad you guys responded so well and quickly enough to save me from the public embarrassment of a less polite response.

rsteph also hit the nail on the head about being happy (or at least satisfied) with the deal that "we" make.

Anyone who is smart enough to access this web site should also be smart enough to do the preparation to make a deal that they can live with or to determine that they can't do that. There are plenty of sources that help you build your own; determine what you want and what you don't want; locate in-stock vehicles that satisfy your desires; determine the prices; determine the value of your trade-in; determine financing options and payments; and then determine what your acceptable deal will be and do all that long before you talk to anyone at a dealership.

If you don't find exactly what you want at exactly the price you want, or if you find that you can't afford what you want... welcome to the real world. It would be nice if we could always get it, but no one owes us exactly what we want in life.

Ref Attitudes: Many Cadillac dealers/salesmen do not have arrogant attitudes. Nor do they have a monopoly on bad attitudes. I've encountered that kind of arrogance (really ignorance) at Honda, Chevrolet, Acura, Ford, and other dealers, as well as at Home Depot, Best-Buy, etc. Unpleasant attitudes usually are attached to ignorant people and are not related to the value of a product. There are plenty of places to buy cars and TVs. Just find someone who appreciates your business and buy what you want from them.

Final observation: As I've noted before, it is interesting and speaks volumes that there is very little whining on this site from people who own a CTS. I'm gonna go outside, lovingly wash mine, and bask in the satisfaction with the car and the deal that I got. While ctsjerry and his SoCal CTS buddies are having their gathering, I'm gonna have a one car show in my driveway. Cheers and a good weekend to all!

cjs2002 · June 2003

Yeah I tried last night and everything seemed to be messing up with the internet.... any hows... I went back to the dealorship and took my papers and asked about the pricing again.... once again I got the same answer sortta... but this time it wasn't as confident in his tone... I showed him the printed out versions of the CTS's I built. one was the Cad site, second was Edmunds, and third was AOLs build a car... all three gave me the same thing of getting a base 04 CTS with the auto 3.6 with out needing to add the option package.... after looking at it he showed it to someone... don't know who... (the guy I'm dealing with is the owner) but anyways he said that his dealorship was mis informed about what the pricing was to be and that if I came back in a week or called in a week theyd have a base 04 CTS that I could drive. so I'm glade ya'll told me about all that... plus now I can decided which one I'd prefer... rather than being stuck or forced buying the cheaper of the two,....(even though I like them both.) thankx to all who helped...

oldsman01 · June 2003

Don't relegate that 32K price ceiling to the old folks, I'm not even 30 yet and 32K is pretty much the max that I can afford right now. While I would love a fully loaded CTS, I can be perfectly happy with a base model as the car does come well equipped. I think it is good that Cadillac offers a model that sells in the low 30s price range. My guess is there are alot of buyers(young and old) that want a luxury car but cannot(or will not) spend much over 30K and to me, despite lacking a few features, a base CTS is a much better car than most other low 30s luxury sedans. I would be perfectly happy with a base 04 CTS with only the 3.6 liter V6(and required automatic) and XM radio.

b4z · June 2003

32K is my max also on a '04, but '03's are cheaper.

I figure I can squeeze a '04 base with 3.6L and Sport package in at about 32K.
SC sales tax caps at $300.

Unfortunately they make up the difference with property tax on vehicles. Will be about $1000 the first year.

b4z · June 2003

In the overall scheme of things a dealer's profit on new cars in not huge.
Unless they whack some unsuspecting soul for their trade in and a high interest rate.

They make far more per unit on used cars.

Lets not forget about the service department which can be the cash cow of the business.

5 years ago a mechnic friend of mine told me that
the service department at the local RicK Hendrick Chevrolet made a 2.1 million dollar profit the year before.
I imagine it is 2.5 million now.
I would guess the whole store is probably making a
5 million dollar profit now.
Pretty breathtaking.

mcgreenx · June 2003

I agree with everything berrycherry said. Or says in the future. Or thinks. (No flames for me!!) We should all petition Congress to repeal the law of supply and demand. Then there won't be any need for incentives, rebates or 0% financing. Or class action lawsuits against auto manufacturers to require offering owner loyalty rewards. They would all give us discounts out of the goodness of their corporate hearts.

bingoman · June 2003

You many 'want' to buy the car for below dealer cost, but you are only going to get it for what the dealer is willing to sell it to you for. It's called Capitalism. If you don't like the system you had better make friends with someone like Saddam.

b4z, that 2.5 million profit is relative. Is it before or after taxes (taxes are a business expense.) Is it 'net' or 'gross' profit (there is a difference.) How does your friend the mechanic know about this 'profit'? Owners do not normally advertise profit numbers.

What is the investment that the 2.5m is based on? If the owners investment in the business two and one half percent profit is no big deal. If the investment is 25 million ten percent is good. If his investment is 10 million it is a great profit.

There is something in economics called opportunity cost, or what that invested money could have produced if it where invested elsewhere. If you could have made more after taxes and everything else with the money invested in a bank, then a business is a poor investment. But until you know all the facts you don't know nothing.

jemiller · June 2003

When a dealer is consistently shipping product for at or very near their invoice price (by this I mean real invoice, after any 'trunk money' games), it is an indication of failure.

Either the manufacturer is shipping product that cannot attract buyers, or the dealer is incapable of selling the product they're getting, or both.

rob35cts · June 2003

I may be wrong but I think one good reason for the resale on the cts will go down alot is because of the big changes being made from year to year. Also the big rebates also hurt resale as noone wants to buy used because they do not have the reabate or low financing. As a result prices are forced down.

rob35cts · June 2003

I got my car at 30 dollars under invoice. You bet your bottom that they made money. Their are kickbacks for selling a certain number of cars plus their is that large holdback. (3% of 38,000=$1140) They also make a ton of money on getting your car back in their garage! I have always know that invoice is never the true cost of the car in the end. In fact if you do the math they made $1110 off of me plus the kickback which I was told was 1500 per car if they reached 90% of normal sales. So they just have to keep their sales up they do not have to sell more cars than normal. So no one should feel bad for the dealer. They aren't living in their big fancy houses for nothing!

b4z · June 2003

There is no lost opportunity with this dealership.

I guess ideally Rick Hendrick would like to show a fairly low profit so as not to pay a lot of corporate taxes.

Although i suspect the profit was rolled into the purchase of another dealership.
This is the same Rick Hendrick that owns Jeff Gordon's race team.

I think he is the second or third largest car dealer in America.

Plus he bought the dealership for a song in the late eighties. He owns the Volvo, Saab, BMW, Mini, Jeep and Honda dealerships adjacent to it(all seperate entities, not shared).

He has over 1500' of frontage on a major highway.

So it is basically a license to print money.
Good for him.

Although I am glad they didn't buy the Cadillac dealership when it was up for sale because they can be difficult to deal with.

wwhite2 · June 2003

Oh I see they dont make any money ..Look they take the risk and therefore make the big money .IF they didnt they wouldnt take the risk . and yes dont forget the "trunk money "

dhannahiii · June 2003

Today I had to make the third change on my CTS order. Back in the first of May I ordered a CTS with xenon lights and folding rear seat, with the 1SB Pkg and Sport Pkg. I also included the XM radio.
Three weeks later the dealer suggested I make a change to my order, by deleting the XM radio option, because of the indefinite hold on that option. So the dealer substituted the Bose Radio Pkg in it place. I still had the 1SB and Sport Pkg, Xenon and folding rear seats.
Today I was asked to make another change, if I wanted to receive my New CTS in the next three weeks. I upgraded to the 1SC Pkg, which include everything I wanted plus the Express Sun Roof which I wasn't planning on. Today's changes only cost me extra $500. Do the math and you want believe it.

automole · June 2003

Has anyone found a decent exhaust tip that fits the CTS? I'm looking for something chrome or preferrably stainless that looks similar to those on the CTS-v. Also, I'm trying to avoid the cheapie car-mart types that attach with two ugly bolts but am open to anything that looks good. I'm tired of looking at that ugly black exhaust tip hiding behind the empty hole in my rear valence! -Thanks in advance!

sonjaab · June 2003

Try http://www.cadillac.com
I have some new brochures of "bling-bling" stuff for new Caddies. Wheels, exaust tips, jackets, etc. Caddy authorized and aval. at dealers also. The brochure is at my other house at the moment so not sure of the web address. If the one above is not correct I will repost it...geo

b4z · June 2003

Here are the CTS accessories from GM.
This a .pdf and will take about 2 minutes to load.
It is also very smalll and hard to read.

http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/accessories/images/cadillac/cts/2003/- cts.pdf?&sid=2177755154097963

wwhite2 · June 2003

thanks for that info ,but it took less than 2 seconds to load (DSL) . and you can use the zoom function to enlarge the print

mcgreenx · June 2003

While I have no intention of trading up from my 2003 LuxSport CTS, I was perusing the Edmunds info on the 2004 and came across the J.D. Powers report on the 2003. There is a "Style" category, where new owners rate the exterior and interior styling of their cars. Surprisingly (to me) CTS 2003 owners gave it a 3 out of 5 for exterior styling, "Does not stand out from the pack" or words to that effect. How anyone can say that about the CTS is beyond me. Like it or not, it is not the run of the mill, although the way other manufacturers seem to be emulating it, it may soon be.

wwhite2 · June 2003

As you said it soon may be because the other manufacturers will be catching up to the CTS styling prowess

arenn · June 2003

If Caddy is really on track to product 60,000 CTS's per year, I think that's a bit aggressive. I know you want to take advantage of a design when it is hot (I even advocate doing more "fashion" oriented auto design in another thread), but for what you hope is a core component of your lineup in the year's ahead, you want to keep sales to a reasonble level to avoid the crash and burn of other "hot" style cars.

I'd as a matter of policy produce no more than 50,000 CTS's per year, and only gradually increase production over time.

vcjumper · June 2003

I don't get it.. Unless the CTS is a 8+year model run like a Cavalier was, how slowly do they ramp up production?

arenn · June 2003

If you oversaturate the market, it hurts resale (and new retail) and diminishes the exclusivity of the brand. If you think the CTS is a flash in the pan, then by all means crank production through the roof and sell every last one you can (throw some incentives on there to boot) while you can. But if you're trying to be in the luxury game for the long term, you need consistent sellers with high resale and an exclusivity factor. So many recent hot designs have crashed and burned. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility that next year or the year after that, art & science will fall out of favor and Caddy will be right back where they started.

b4z · June 2003

Production has been up and down.

The lowest I have seen in recent months was 1100. The highest I have ever seen was a little over 1500 in a week.

This past week's 1350 was about average.
If they make 1200 a week for 50 weeks that is 60,000.

YTD 30,000 have been produced in 5 months and 3 weeks.

Last year I posted that if they continue at this rate we would see massive incentives by this time. Hasn't happened yet.

As long as they don't have a bunch of program cars that flood the market in 12 months we should be fine.

My dealer does have th largest inventory he has had. 7 cars. it might be time for some end of the model year incentives. LOL.

willngayle · June 2003

Other than the new 3.6L engine, which should be a nice change, can anyone tell me what other changes were made on the 04 CTS? Any interior or exterior changes? Thanks, Bill

cdnpinhead · June 2003

what it can be sold for. The CTS is in a good position, in that it can be sold with fewer (or no) incentives, relative to most other American cars these days.

It's a good thing. Will it last? Time will tell.

jemiller · June 2003

In the past, Detroit has gone for volume over margin, quantity over quality, and the end result was the commoditization and devaluing of what should have been high-end nameplates.

There's an old line that what we learn from history is that we don't learn from history, but GM seems to have some fairly bright people on board these days, hopefully they can manage to re-establish GM as a portfolio of brands covering at least the middle 2/3 of the car market.

oldsman01 · June 2003

I think your dead on about Cadillac not giving into fleets with the CTS and thus causing a surplus of year old program cars selling for more than a 1/3 less that what they did new. This has killed Lincoln Town Car resale and also hurts the Cadillac Deville as those are fairly common in fleets.

thebug · June 2003

On the JD Powers review, I saw that also a while back, and said to myself, "that's got to be a typo", or they didn't survey CTS owners. In my expereice, I've only had people (and that's several) approach me to tell me how sharp the car is.

Additionally, I don't know if it has ever happened to you, but I've had drivers making a left turn so slowly at an intersection to take a look, that they make others miss the left turn signal.

I also went back to read the reviews that were written (when the CTS was first introduced) by various car mags/reviewers, and they seem to have been altered just a bit. Seeing how the CTS has done much better than many perceived it would, a fair amount the harsh criticisms have been removed from their reviews. Go figure. I love my CTS, it rocks.

Because of their contempt prior to a full investigation, a great deal of them will have to eat crow, and I beleive it's now safe to say,(as my buds say when the underdog wins the football game) "crow is now being served on the promenade deck".

automole: I had a dual exhaust system installed at a local vogue dealer, they used chrome tips, and may sale just the chrome tips. They are of solid quality and look pretty sharp. It may be worth a shot asking them, if you have a local vogue.

thebug...

merc1 · June 2003

I have to ask you, who do you think is copying the CTS' design?

M

automole · June 2003

I don't think ANYONE is actually copying it YET...
I do think however, that in the near future more auto manufacturers are going to jump on the art&science bandwagon and style their cars with more dramatic edges and a sharper more agressive look.

Take a look at this Ford for instance:
http://www.ford.com/en/vehicles/autoShows/detroit2003/ford/427/de- - - - fault.htm

Or this Lincoln:
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/2002- - - - - - /laautoshow/lincoln.continental.f34.500.jpg

Or BMW?:
http://www.conceptcarz.com/folder/photo.asp?car_id=5489&picID- - - - =27142&printAllPictures=&whichPage=&pagesize=&aut- - - - oshowID=&vehicleTypeID=1

Yes, they don't look exactly like the CTS but they share certain design traits that the CTS 'pioneered'. I think you'll be seeing more sharp edges, shiny grilles, and vertical headlamps soon....just my opinion.

b4z · June 2003

Looks like the CTS has seriously cut into deville sales.

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

CTS sales are up 34% from May 2002!

merc1 · June 2003

Those cars don't look anything like the CTS. A lot of cars share some characteristics, but emulating the CTS' style they are not. The Cadillac theme is that of a jet fighter, I don't see that on any of those cars.

M

automole · June 2003

You can honestly say that this car doesn't look ANYTHING like the CTS?

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/03images/det_ford427_1.jpg

If you look at the following page the article states that " Ford indicated that it may a possible design direction for a future lineup of Ford cars" and that "The center console runs the entire length of the interior creating the sensation that its four-passenger bucket seats form individual roomy fighter jet cockpits"

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/030106-5.htm

As I said in my previous posts -"JUST MY OPINION", yours may differ.

It would seem that at least A FEW others share my opinion that it shares a likeness to the Cadillac design as seen by the comments at the bottom of this page...I found them amusing:

http://www.corral.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=239&papas- - s=&sort=1&thecat=536

ctsjerry · June 2003

Yes, Automole, I agree they are TRYING to emulate the CTSs design, but aren't copying it EXACTLY. I posted some photos at http://www.caddyedge.com showing the similarities. See: "CTS Versus Infinity Styling Similarities". At first glance, the Japanese makes in particular, look alot like CTSs. The 2003 CTS has been in production since October of 2001, enough time for these guys to start copying. I agree the F117 Nighthawk styling is not being copied very well. I like the American bred "stealth look" of my CTS and I look down on those wannabee copycats.

jemiller · June 2003

...that the F-117 was a 'hack'.

It looks the way it does only because the tools and techniques available in the late '70s (it's quite an old product) for low-observability design didn't allow them to do something aerodynamically efficient or aesthetically attractive.

See the F-22 by comparison - the product of two-generation-newer design processes - a far smoother and more attractive shape (not that the Pentagon goes out of its way to make its planes pretty.)

As for the Ford noted above - it looks a lot like an Infiniti M45, and that's *not* something one should run around patting oneself on the back for. There was another Ford showcar of some months back that looked a little like a '61 Continental, it was a much more attractive shape.

b4z · June 2003

Anyone know where I can see a color sample of the new silver smoke?
My salesman tells me that they won't have the brochure until late July or August.
And if anybody has a dig cam pic and can post it or email it to me I would appreciate it.

wwhite2 · June 2003

Gee ,I wonder where they got the styling cues for that car LOL
Automole you are absolutely right

tomcat630 · June 2003

"Seeing how the CTS has done much better than many perceived it would, a fair amount the harsh criticisms have been removed from their reviews. Go figure."

They were biased simply by the name on the hood. Never mind the whole new plant and other new engineering that went into the car. I'd like to see them eat crow, too.

rob35cts · June 2003

So are you guys telling me that the sterling silver is no longer available? I wouldn't trade up for just that reason. I love the sterling silver.

Cadillac CTS/CTS-V

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