Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

wale_bate1 · March 2005

Nippon:

Forget $28,995. Won't happen. But I truly believe you'll be able to order a $29,995 IS. Can you wait the ten weeks or so from deposit? ;-)

You can bet your fanny that this next purchase of mine (whatever it may be), I'm gonna order it if I can't find exactly what I want. My days of compromise are behind me (touch wood)!

merc1 · March 2005

Is the RX330 really an "SUV" though? I don't think it is. Its a crossover which is really a raised car/wagon like the Volvo XC90. The RX is hardly the benchmark for SUVs like the Cayenne, FX, Touareg, X5 or anything else that is mean to be driven, or meant to do any thing like off roading. The RX330 on road dynamics are simply awful compared to anyone of those I mentioned earlier. Also, I hardly think anyone from Land Rover thinks of a RX as a benchmark. Now the GX and LX 470 models from Lexus are real SUVs, not the RX.

M

drfill · March 2005

with just a roof and xenon.

DrFill

ivan_99 · March 2005

There is no way an IS350 will cost over 40k. It's just not gonna happen

You may be right, the base IS350 may cost $39,995.

oac · March 2005

"There is no way an IS350 will cost over 40k. It's just not gonna happen..."

I guess many people *speculated* (that word again) that the new GS would not reach the $60K mark. Well, try pricing a fully loaded GS430. Lexus believes it has earned some more capital in the NA market, and now believes it can price uplevel to that of MB or BMW. Watch the next LS price go beyond $60K base. There has to be overlaps between models - where one tops out becomes the other's starting point. Tell me how the new GS300 can be selling for $50 large! That car, appropriately priced, should be in the mid-$40K range. That, imo, is the sweet spot. The IS350 will reach $40K easily, when fully optioned up.

lexusguy · March 2005

An optioned out G35 6MT is around $37K. A similar IS350 should cost maybe 1-2K more, so $39-40K is perfectly reasonable.

The RX may be the poster boy for the "soft roader", but it destroys the competition in the most important factor, sales. How many X5s or Touregs are REALLY taken off road?

sorter · March 2005

The RX is a HUGE money maker for Toyota. If each one makes $5,000, times that by over 100,000 and you have about half of a billion dollar profit just from the NA Market. And base on the fact that it is now makes in Canada, and the Toyota cost cutting drive, I suspect each car profits more than 5K. BMW and Benz are dying for that kind of number every single day.
remember the day when a DCX SUV makes about $10K each? Toyota are selling those vehicles now.

dl7265 · March 2005

I belive it. Looking at a local autotrader there are a couple of older GS300, a few IS300 and about 40 later model RX. Probably due to the higher sales volume ,But lots of them were late models with low miles....hmm

DL

alpha01 · March 2005

Looking back... the overpriced first-gen. GS loaded cost $50K in the July 1996 Car and Driver test. I hardly think that same $51K for a GS 300 AWD with NAV/Mark Levinson, Moonroof, Adaptive Lighting, Run-Flats, etc. is unreasonable. Its also about $6K less than a comparable E350. (Lexus isnt aiming to compete on price with Infiniti and Acura, though the premiums against the M35 AWD and RL, for example, are far less than those that BMW and MB ask for similiarly equiped vehicles.)

"That, imo, is the sweet spot." Yes, for the consumer, perhaps. But if Lexus can sell the same volume at a higher profit, it will do so. For now, only after some time passes will we be able to analyze the effectiveness of Lexus USA's strategy.

~alpha

jrock65 · March 2005

Standard Equipment
- SmartAccess with push-button start
- Optitron Instrument Cluster
- Power Tilt/Telescopic Steering Wheel
- Steering-wheel-mounted Cruise Control, Audio and Display Controls
- Bluetooth® technology
- 10-Way power seats with memory for driver and passenger
- Wood and/or Metal trim interior
- Dual-Zone Automatic Climate Control
- Mini Plug accessory connector
- Illuminated Scuff Plates on door sills
- AM/FM/CD, 13-speaker audio system
- Ten airbags, including a first-in-segment double knee airbag

Optional Equipment
- Ventilated Front Seats with multistage fans
- Touch Screen-Voice Activated DVD Navigation System
- Mark Levinson Premium Surround Audio System
- Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC)
- Intuitive Parking Assist
- Rain-sensing Windshield Wipers with Headlamp Washers
- Power rear-window sunshade
- XM® Satellite Radio capability
- Lexus Pre-Collision System (PCS)
- Intelligent Adaptive Front Lighting System (I-AFS)
- Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management System (VDIM).

This features list has been confirmed by several sources, as well as interior photos of the IS shown in Geneva.

Equipped with all of the above, I'd be shocked if the IS350 comes at less than $44,000. PCS alone should be a $2000 option. Hopefully, I'll be wrong.

jrock65 · March 2005

IS250: $31,000 base, $37,000 fully loaded (without PCS)
IS250 AWD: $33,000 base, $39,000 fully loaded (without PCS)
IS350: $35,000 base, $42,000 fully loaded (without PCS)

PCS will be a $2000 special order option.

mexcar · March 2005

Thanks for the great info. Just wondering whether you knew about the sunroof mentioned earlier as an option and/or about ABS or Trac?

oac · March 2005

I agree 100% with your price guesses. Exactly my guestimates, as well.

arthur_15 · March 2005

What is all this IS 250 talk? I thought we decided that here probably will not be a IS 250 in the U.S.?

wco81 · March 2005

"Have you all forgotten the way the ls400 stole the thunder or bmw and MB? My god, the car was a sensation at 35k-40k loaded. It flew off lots because it was quieter, faster, more elegant and more luxurious than all its direct competitors at a price thousands less than BMW/MB could touch."

I just read an LA Times article about the RX400h. There is suspicion that the LS400 was underpriced to establish the brand. Lexus may have taken a loss that a giant like Toyota could amortize.

There is suspicion they may be doing the same with the RX400h. A lot of people are squawking about the pricing but all the hybrid components may cost well over whatever the price delta is from a comparably equipped RX330.

Anyways, I think there are ES330 models on Lexus dealer lots which are like 41-43k. Put a 3.5 engine which will outrun the BMWs and the Audis and they will most certainly price it in the mid 40s, which is where the competition is.

wco81 · March 2005

It looks like most of the Lexuses these days come with a lot of these options. The main things they don't all have are Nav and ML.

So unless you want to special order, you're going to get ventilated seats and rear window shade and such.

wco81 · March 2005

"- Mini Plug accessory connector "

They call this "equipment"?

It's a good feature if they can't offer iPod compatibility (charging/control/display) but it's equipment?

smirnoffski · March 2005

So, how possible is it to get the 2005 IS300s at a killer price, say near invoice?

mg808 · March 2005

Lexus must be dreaming of selling 5000/month of these cars at these prices. Even with vented seats and other "goodies". The IS is smallish car.

The G35, TL are loaded in the mid-$30's with 270-290hp. Why buy a smaller car for more money and possibly less hp, if the IS350 isn't introduced, its speculation at this point.

I think the pricing needs to be way lower or it will be squeezed out at both ends. BMW and MB will keep their "high-end" customers and Acura/Infiniti will still have their customer base. Remember, all the other cars in this segment have a established following with HUGE sales numbers. Lexus hasn't retooled the IS since inception. At $42K or higher, it will be hard to dethrone all the current players.

lexusguy · March 2005

We'll have to see what happens. While the TL and G are great values, they wont be able to offer the engine and body options that Lexus, BMW, and Audi will have.

blueguydotcom · March 2005

nice list but I don't see the options I really care about:

Leather, Xenon and moonfoor. I have no use for any of the other options and if i like the car I'll gladly order it without laser cruise and ventilated seats and such. Don't need or want that stuff.

can't see them making moon standard but maybe xenon lights. Shrug, regardless, I feel I can get an IS at a reasonable price if the options are just tacky gizmos.

drfill · March 2005

Those are the best options.

I think there are going to be three levels of Lexus IS buyer:

Those sold already because the car is a Lexus and looks cool.

Those who like the car, but will become sold once they sit in the new, posh interior. It's interior seems much more luxurious than the 3 or the G35. Similar to the TL.

And those who are drivers, and want the best driver's car for the money.

I wouldn't worry too much on sales. I guess we can't project too much without knowing the other engines available. Who even know how much power the 2.5 has!

But with coupe, conv., hybrid, and maybe V8 down the road. whatever they sell in 2006, that number may double by 2008-9.

DrFill

k_mitsui · March 2005

This question should be very easily answered: If you get the list of equipment and options on the Crown Mark X sedan, you should have a very good understanding on the kinds of options and equipment this car has...From what I know so far, both laser cruise and ventilated seats would be implanted on the IS as an option, but I am talking to the ones that is selling in Japan (So may-be the ones in America would not have these options). In terms of pricing not surprisingly, my friend whom works as an official in Toyota seems to be very accurate that the sedan with the best powerplant and option would sold around 4.2 million yen ($42000 American approx) and the cheapest would sell around $28000 American. I would not anticipate the pricing would change by much given that too much funds are already invested in this project already. So unless Toyota change their mind on last minute prices would stay as it is Before I end my message, I know that either Carmode or Carview or some other magazine in Japan would have their full road-test review on the IS ready by next week and if I have time this week, I would try to summarize and translate the entire article to everyone in this forum...
Ken

dewey · March 2005

"Who even know how much power the 2.5 has!"

In recent auto articles from the Globe and Mail and the National Post, the HP of the 2.5 IS will be 206. Yes, only 206 and this is not a typo error. I read both figures seperately in both papers!

jrock65 · March 2005

The 2.5 in the European IS250 has 201 hp and 184 torque.

A loaded G35 sedan with Premium Package, Wood, Navi, and Satellite radio is $37,610. Add AWD and it is $39,410.

drfill · March 2005

that figure is based off of the anticipated power need in the UK.

The US version will be more powerful, and more details will be released at NYIAS, for both the 250, and any other model that will be available this fall.

I wouldn't bet on 206. That's not it.

DrFill

oac · March 2005

Assuming we get the 2.5L model, expect hp to be in the 210-220hp range. The 3L motor, if we get that should be in the 250-255hp range, and the 3.5L motor in the 300-320hp range.

Its going to be another couple of weeks before we know for sure.

dewey · March 2005

The hp figure of 201 for the 2.5 IS is a Canadian and a European spec.

Hate to break the bad news to all of you folks but Lexus cars in Canada are identical to the cars in the US.

Buying a 2.5 IS in the USA with more hp than 201 is just wishful thinking.

kyfdx · March 2005

Let's see..

IS250... 201 hp
325i... 215 hp

IS300... 245 hp
330i... 255 hp

Something about this reminds me of the launch of the original IS300..

jrock65 · March 2005

There won't be any IS300. There will be an IS350. It will be faster than a 330i, no doubt.

nippononly · March 2005

there are just IS300s and IS350s? I mean, the IS250 whose specs are proposed here will actually be LOWER powered than the IS we already have. Even given that this is Toyota ("we don't get into horsepower wars") we are talking about, that seems a little odd.

aldehyde · March 2005

Canadian and US specs are not always identical. There is a BMW 3-series offered in Canada and Europe that slots below the 325, which is the US base model, and there is an Acura sedan (the EL) which is bascially a glorified Civic, available in Canada but not here. It's very possible that different engines are coming for the US and Canada markets.

lexusguy · March 2005

The new 3.0 and 3.5 engines do seem like better candidates than the 2.5. Unless Lexus wants the IS250 to compete with cars like the TSX and Volvo S40..

dewey · March 2005

"Canadian and US specs are not always identical."

That may be the case for Acura and BMW but not Lexus.

That may change in the future with the IS. Canadians are more frugal and not as addicted to gas consuming power as you folks are down south.

is3ooguy · March 2005

Let's put this to rest....
Outputs on engines in the US and Canada have always been the same. Yes, in Canada we have some cars like the Acura EL, BMW 320i, and Toyota Echo hatchback they don't South of the border but it works the other way as well. We don't get the Pontiac GTO or the Lancer EVO.
With that said Aldehyde, European and Canadian spec are usually different. Someone help me out, is it because they use a different rating system or are the engines in a different state of tune?

kyfdx · March 2005

I'm not saying you are wrong...

But, I've seen nothing definitive on this.. I see a lot of talk here... but, no one can quote a source, other than Clements (sp?), and his thoughts seem kind of vague on it...

The first solid info I've seen, that also seems logical, is the horsepower number on the IS250... and we know the car comes with that.. they said so in Geneva..

And, I've actually seen a new 3.0 litre engine in a Lexus... in the GS300...

So far, the 3.5 in the IS is just supposition.. No current Lexus has one..

Anything can happen... but, I wouldn't say we "know" anything about a possible IS350..

regards,
kyfdx

aldehyde · March 2005

dewey and is3ooguy - points taken, thanks, I was just pointing out that the Canadian and US markets are not completely identical. As Canadian gas prices are much closer to European prices than US (I found out the hard way when I visited Vancouver that I should have paid more attention many years ago when they taught us that there are about FOUR liters to a gallon, not two - at almost a dollar a liter that's a LOT worse than any US gas station...), I too would put a big premium (no pun intended) on gas economy over horsepower if I lived there.

As kyfdx says, we're all just speculating, but we'll probably find out in late March when the New York show opens.

The is300 line was supposed to encompass as broad a range of options as the 3-series, from convertibles to AWD crossovers. Unlike most posters here, I don't need or want more horsepower or torque, I want all wheel drive, MORE ground clearance AND Lexus reliability... as someone who's gone through consecutive A4 quattro and 325xi leases because I don't trust either company's reliability after warranty, the big difference for me is the appeal of Lexus' legendary long-term reliability, which means a car I would actually buy and keep for a decade rather than endlessly cycle leases.

I know for a fact I'm not alone and folks like me represent a whole market segment that are looking for something smaller than the G35x and the near-luxury-wannabe Legacy that Toyota/Lexus could easily capture by bringing a diversified is300 line to fruition.

Low-slung aero-packaged IS350s for those who want that and AWD snow-capable raised-suspension IS250s for people like me, while consistently undercutting Audi and BMW's price points for similar products.

wale_bate1 · March 2005

The HP figure is strictly academic. We all know that. The Kentucky man ought to know that better than the rest of us. [-P

Having the highest number most certainly will not make for the best car, as BMW has routinely and consistently proved with the 3-series for three decades. Let's just see what the numbers look like on the test loops, and more importantly what the driving impressions are.

You'll pardon me for the opinion here, but buying a car by numbers is an idiot's game. Kind of like basing a purchase decision on the eventual value of a depreciating asset...
;-)

kyfdx · March 2005

All true.. My point was mostly marketing.. The first IS300 only came with automatic.. Now, even 3-series are probably 80% automatic, or more.. but, as Lexus found out, not having an automatic was a terrible marketing mistake.. They got roasted by the enthusiasts' magazines...

So, marketing the handling dynamics of a car is a good thing... but, BMW will be hard to beat on that issue..

If you are going to mimic the offerings of the 3-series by having engine options, etc... then you should be able to point to something superior, other than a lower price. Superior horsepower is an easy thing to trumpet over the competition.. whether it means you are actually faster or not..

BMW has fairly low HP numbers in relation to the competition.. I just think it is a marketing mistake to not top them... I personally could give a rat's patootie about the numbers... How does it drive?

But, you and I are in the minority...

regards,
kyfdx

gotenks243 · March 2005

"As Canadian gas prices are much closer to European prices than US (I found out the hard way when I visited Vancouver that I should have paid more attention many years ago when they taught us that there are about FOUR liters to a gallon, not two - at almost a dollar a liter that's a LOT worse than any US gas station...), "

Though more expensive, I still would say Canadian gas prices are closer to the US than Europe. You have to remember there's an exchange rate difference too. Regular in Ontario at least is around $0.80/l. That's $3.04/USgal. But even with the rapid decline of the US dollar preceding and especially following the election, that's about US$2.43/gal. That's not far off from California right now

Still, high gas prices are a factor, along with salaries and disposable income, that encourage Canadians to buy more efficient cars.

Either way, an efficient 250 (or 220d) is a good thing in any market. I expect Lexus to take the TSX head on.

Mike

petl · March 2005

Canadians tend to buy smaller more cost efficient vehicles than Americans. Just look at the top selling vehicles on both sides of the border. A couple examples include the Civic and the Corolla outsell the Accord and the Camry in Canada (the opposite is true is the States). I hope that AWD will be an available option with the new IS (CR states that it will be). If so it may be a replacement for my 2002 XLE Camry. The lower HP won't deter me from purchasing this vehicle.

jrock65 · March 2005

There hasn't been an official press release, but the IS350 is more than a mere supposition, because Lexus released information regarding the IS350 RWD (no AWD option with the 3.5) to its dealers, along with the features list I posted.

Of course, the dealer that posted the info could be just making it up, but I wouldn't bet on it.

wale_bate1 · March 2005

"If you are going to mimic the offerings of the 3-series by having engine options, etc... then you should be able to point to something superior, other than a lower price. Superior horsepower is an easy thing to trumpet over the competition.. whether it means you are actually faster or not..."

Unfortunately you make sense. To decry, on my part, the fact that it caters to a lowest common denominator attitude, is like throwing sand at the incoming tide!

Toyota being all about volume, you are probably on the path.

Ah well, nobody complains about HP excesses unless they come at the expense of more necessary attributes. My stance is firmly on the grounds that that vast majority of resources needs to be thrown at driving dynamics first and foremost; power and amenities need to be in the back seat (figuratively, of course). That's really what makes my car so intensely satisfying.

I took a trip Saturday up the CA coast on hwy 1. For anyone who's never been there, it's the ultimate driving road (when the traffic's light). I think the total amount of straightaway numbers maybe 400 ft. per 10 miles! The car that replaces this one needs to make me feel the same or better on a road like that!

lenscap · March 2005

I agree with you. People are looking for sources and I spoke directly with regional managers at my dealership. There will be a 2.5. There will be a 3.5. And there will NOT be a 3.0. (The 3.0 in the GS will be replaced with the 3.5 for 2007.)

kyfdx · March 2005

I'm not doubting anyone's sources... I'm just saying that they may not have any idea..

Example: The new '06 3-series makes its NA debut at the NY auto show in three weeks.. And goes on sale the first week of May..

As recently as January 1st (only 4 months before it goes on sale), no one had even heard that the 325i wouldn't have the 2.5 litre engine, but would have a 3.0 litre engine, instead...

So, until we get an ordering guide, or a copy and paste of an official letter from someone at Lexus, USA.. I'll remain skeptical..

My point is.. no one knows for sure..

regards,
kyfdx

drfill · March 2005

It would HAVE TO sell for less than $30k, and that flies in the face of everything Lexus has done for it's 15 years here.

They want volume, but not by cheapening the brand.

What I don't understand is, how is the IS gonna be 2.5 and 3.5 only, with the 3.5 at 300+HP?

Where does the hybrid go from there?

I would have all three engines in the mix, if the 2.5 made enough power.

You can never have too many engines to choose from, can you?

DrFill

lenscap · March 2005

I understand you are not doubting sources and I guess I agree with you that something needs to be seen in writing. So, we'll just have to wait a few more weeks.

tsx24 · March 2005

Any IS250 in europe is going to be tuned for the best gas mileage possible. Does anyone know the MPG ratings? I would guess somewhere between 32-35 highway.

The 250 sent to US will be tuned for maximum hp; and not so concerned with mpg. I can see 220 hp, and 30 mpg on highway.

crimsono2 · March 2005

------------------------------------
It would HAVE TO sell for less than $30k, and that flies in the face of everything Lexus has done for it's 15 years here.

They want volume, but not by cheapening the brand.

What I don't understand is, how is the IS gonna be 2.5 and 3.5 only, with the 3.5 at 300+HP?

Where does the hybrid go from there?"

I would have all three engines in the mix, if the 2.5 made enough power.

You can never have too many engines to choose from, can you?

DrFill
-----------------

My guess is that they stayed away from the 3.0L because it wouldn't necessarily give off a *remodel* or *upgrade* vibe. Also, I think the option of a 3.0L would soon be obsolete considering that a *possible* future hybrid mated to a 3.3L would come into play. The 3.3L is what I'm presuming they would use considering that the RX and Highlander are fitted with it.

Can't wait to get more details in the NY show.

CrimsonO2

arthur_15 · March 2005

The base model absolutely has to be as fast as the current model or else I won't be getting one. Why would they release a new version of a car that has less power? Has anyone ever done that?

Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

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