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Comments
I am happy to share with you what I know, but, Good Lord, I am certainly not a guru or anything.
If you want to email me, I can hook you up with some web sites that have tons of technical info.
What we lack here in technical stuff in this message board, we more than make up for in the friendly, laid back atmosphere. The places that I would direct you for technical info would flame someone mercilessly for most of the posts in here.
There is just no other major web site that I know of like Edmunds, where people are actually friends (well, Gill's, but I said MAJOR web sites).
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Think of a ten speed bike. When you take off from a standing start, you use first gear, because you can peddle it more easily to get it going. As you get your speed up, your legs have to pump faster and faster until you finally don't know if your legs are propelling the bike or the bike is propelling your legs. You are pumping as fast as you can but not gaining any speed. That's why you shift to a higher gear, to slow you legs down, while at the same time making the bike actually go faster. Think of the speed that your legs are pumping as the equivalent of the RPMs of an engine.
Now, once you are up to speed and everyting is lovely, let's say you start up a hill. All of a sudden, you are working too hard trying to petal that bike, so you downshift to a lower gear.
It's the same way with an engine. There is a certain RPM range where the engine is putting out the best power, and gearing serves to keep the engine in its optimum RPM range, so that it isn't "working too hard."
In the case of a car or Jeep, you have more than just the rear end ratio affecting the relationship between engine speed (RPMs) and the tire speed. There is a transmission AND a rear end. The transmission has ratios for every gear, and the speed that the driveshaft turns in relation to the RPMs is determined by the gear you are in. In fourth gear, for example, the ratio is one to one, so you get one revolution of the engine for one turn of the driveshaft. Then the rear end gearing takes over, and it takes 3.07 turns of the driveshaft for one revolution of the tires, if you have a 3.07 rear end, or it takes 3.73 turns of the driveshaft if you have a 3.73 rear end ratio.
Hope I haven't confused you. I may not have done much of a job in trying to explain this.
Just remember, it isn't the rear end alone that affects the speed of the vechicle vs. the RPMs of the engine. It is the combination of the transmission AND the rear end. Tire size is another variable in the equation too. A larger tire diameter has the same effect as a higher gear (a higher gear is a LOWER ratio, by the way, just to confuse you even more).
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
I LOVE to talk Jeep, so I am always glad to answer questions. Just remember, you are only getting one guy's opinion, and I encourage you to seek other sources of info.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
I have a 2002 Sport that I ordered back in April. One of the things that I ordered was a Dana44 rear with stock tires. I already had planned on getting larger tires with a more aggressive tread and figured why spend the extra money on the tire package that they offered. If you want the Dana44 you should not have to order the 30 inch tire group. The Dana44 does give you the 3.73 gearing. The Dana44 does not cost that much more when it comes from the factory.
Different opinions on half doors or full doors. You did not mention what way you were going with that. I have had both and got full doors on this one. Full doors are more of a pain to take off, but I think I dislike folding that half window down even more.
The only thing that I regret not having ordered on mine was cruise control even though I was asked if I wanted it. Figure the cruise might help a little bit with the gas mileage for all the road miles that I drive.
I have never had ABS so I don't miss it.
As far as negotiating, I built mine on Edmunds and carried that paper work with me. The dealer came up with a price that was so close to Edmunds that there was no negotiating required. All of the prices for options were pretty consistent between Edmunds and the Jeep dealer (thanks Edmunds).
Please keep posting and let us know what you decide on.
Still a happy camper.
-twylie
I have given you some advice, and without rehashing all the reasons why, just let me summarize what I would recommend.
If you can afford a Sport, then I would go that route, since an "X" doesn't give you the option of a Dana 44.
By getting either the Sport or the X, you will be getting the 4.0 L six cylinder engine, which I know you will be glad you have. The only problem with the X is that they don't let you get the Dana 44, and that may not really be a problem at all. The Dana 35 for most folks would be OK, but if you get a Sport and have a choice, then by all means go with the Dana 44.
If you get the Sport, then I really like that 30" tire/Dana 44 package. It's a way to get the bigger tires and the Dana 44 cheaper than by buying them separately.
If you want different tires, then check with some tire dealers in your area, and see what they will give you for your new Goodyear Wrangler GSA's that come on the Jeep from the factory. I got a deal that you probably won't be able to find in your area, but I got $83.50 apiece trade in allowance on my GSA'a after they had 10K miles on them! They gave me $93.50 for the spare that had never been used. (You can look for one of my old posts to be sure, but I think those are the right numbers).
There's nothing wrong with the GSA's, if you want to keep them, but I wanted 31" tires.
Hey, you might even make it part of your deal when you place your order??? Maybe the dealer can get you the tire of your choice and include it in the deal to begin with. You would think a car dealer would get a killer discount on tires from the local tire dealers, so maybe the Jeep dealer could work out something for you and put it in the deal. (Get it IN WRITING).
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
#3081 of 6915 Thelma got some 31's by tsjay Jun 27, 2001 (05:40 pm)
Hey everyone! Took Thelma today to have some 31 inch tires put on her. I got the 31 x 10.5 BF Goodrich All Terrain TA's, like old Tonkadave did.
I couldn't believe the deal they gave me, and I jumped all over it. It was going to be $641 for five new tires, mounted, balanced, and tax included. I was ready to forget it, but I went to the tire store to let them see what they could allow me on Thelma's 30's for trade in.
The spare was new, and they gave me $95 for it. The four that were on Thelma had 10,500+ miles on them, and they gave me $83 apiece on them!
Bottom line, I got five new 31 x 10.50 BF Goodrich All Terrain TA's mounted, balanced, and tax included for $188.63.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
If you plan on keeping stock tire size, then I'd say go for the 30's. If you have even a slight inkling of going offroad, or going larger, get the stock ones, and you can get a better deal aftermarket.
As far as Dana 44 or 35, I'd say 44. Even if you don't use it, it will hold the value for you if you should ever make a mistake and sell it.
To rehash:
Dana 44
3.73
your call on tires
5 speed manual
6 cylinder (or "the new" 4!)
no stereo (better aftermarket)
half doors
When I ordered, the dealer asked me if I wanted cruise since it would help with the resale value. I told her to take a look out the window at my twelve year old truck and guess if I was concerned about resale (still driving that truck).
Yea, hindsight is 20/20 just like they say.
At the moment I am holding off on the cruise and am going to spend my money on Skid Row engine and lca skid plates. Am hoping to get them ordered this week. After that I will be in pretty good shape for having the underside covered. Using a combo of DC steering, Kilby gas, Fourxdoc rockers and pumpkin, and Skid Row for the rest. Did I miss anything?
Still a happy camper.
Think you're doing the right thing, though. I still haven't ordered my Skid Row engine/oil pan skid yet.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
I figure I am going to need all that plating for when I go to Turkey Bay next year.
I am still a happy camper.
Let's hear what yer thinkin' as of now.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Seems I have a leak in my slave cylinder which applies the fluid to the clutch. Unfortunately the slave cylinder is in the transmission so the transmission has to be taken apart before that can be verified. He said that as long as that's open he might just as well replace the clutch too. Worst case scenario is $800.
I'm not a happy camper this week.
Jay
I drive a little S10 pickup to work and for a lot of my running around. It has 153K miles on it, so I know I'm gonna have an occasional problem to have to deal with. Just had a buddy put a fuel pump in if for me this past week.
Hopefully, after your current problem is fixed, you will have only very minor things to contend with.
FYI, at some point they changed the design so that the slave cylinder was no longer inside the tranny and was more accessible. That doesn't do you a lot of good, though, does it? I think I have heard that it was 1991, but I'm not sure about that.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Just wanted to say this is best forum by far. You all have great insights and information on Wranglers. I have been reading your forum for a while now and I don’t even own a wrangler. (Which is why I never posted before) But, now I am seriously looking into getting one and I was hoping you could help me out with a few questions.
First off, I think the model I will be getting is the X. I would love to get the Sport so that I could get the duel top option, but when you equip the 2 models against each other with the same options the X comes out $600-800 cheaper. (Except for the fog lights of coarse standard on the Sport) Does anyone understand why? Since the X model is cheaper, but the dual top is not an option I was thinking of going with and X with a hardtop and purchasing the soft-top separate. My question is should I by the soft top through Jeep/Mopar at time of purchase or is the soft top from Best Top just as good of quality?
Secondly, does anyone have the 7 speaker sound system? Is this a lot better then the 4-speaker system? Should I not worry about it because the road noise will drown it out anyway?
Concerning ABS, seems like all Wranglers at my area dealers are ordered without it. I have owned 2 cars with out ABS before and I had no problem with the Chicago weather here, but I’m a little worried about my wife. Is ABS a worthwhile option? Has anyone had trouble stopping in the Wrangler without it?
Lastly, if you have any advice on a purchase of a Wrangler it would be greatly appreciated. What would you have done different? We will be using our Wrangler for mostly around town driving with some light off roading.
Thanks for your time
Jeephead
Good news is that once I got the lugs tightened (checked all of them) and added a new one in place of the one that went AWOL, the Jeep ran great and no damage was done. I took her into the aspens this past weekend and brought back a lot of trophy mud. We stayed on the trails and didn't do any spinning, so no harm done to mother nature. Although the trails were pretty tame, they were definately Jeep worthy and allowed us to lose the cute-ute folks crowding the fire roads. The kids are still getting used to the idea of going off-road and I am still getting a feel for it myself, so we will stick to less challenging terrain for a bit.
Parking lot speed: I work at a college where security actually uses radar guns in the parking lot, hence the speed limit enforcement (15 mph). I don't mind really, since I bought my Wrangler I have been in less of a hurry to get anywhere, it's too much fun to drive!
I hope you let them know about it.
You still ought to do one more thing, if you haven't already. Did you check the holes in the wheels where the lug studs go through? Are they still nice and round? Loose or missing lug nuts can wallow out the hole that the studs go through,
and that "ain't a good thing." Well, I said one more thing, but you should also have checked the threads on the studs very closely to be sure they weren't damaged.
If either of the above are in evidence, then go right back to that shop and make them make it right for ya. A new wheel and/or new studs.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
It takes me about six or six and a half hours to get to Attica (Badlands). I've only been twice, and the second time I was only two hours away from there on business, so I just shot on over there.
I would love to hook up with ya, so just let me know.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
My buddy did on his 79 Anniversary Trans Am!
" ...double check the lug nuts after getting new tires, that's like checking to see if your dentist drilled the right tooth."
I had shoulder surgery in the spring. They have you circle the area they will operate on and initial it with a purple magic marker. I guess that is a lot cheaper, quicker, and easier than the alternatives.
You should also rotate tires yourself, do own spark plugs, and do own oil changes for these reasons. These monkeys are the kids who drop out of high school, don't forget!
OK, the "X" is fine, I'm sure. They didn't even offer it in the 01 model year when I ordered my Thelma Jane. As you have probably read in my recent posts, the Dana 44 rear end is not available in the X model. How important is that? It really depends on how you will use the Jeep and what future mods you want to be able to make.
If you think you will ever do more than just mild offroading, will ever want to put in a locker, or go to 33" tires or larger, then the Dana 44 can be pretty important.
You said your use would be around town and mild offroading, so as long as that remains the case, you should get by fine with the Dana 35.
As a matter of fact, around town and mild offroading sounds like a good set of condtions for the new 2.4 L four cylinder engine. You could save some money and get the "SE" version, which has the four cylinder. You would save enough there I'm sure to get the dual top option and some after market wheels and tires. (I'm thinkin' five speed here... I don't think I would want the four cylinder hooked up with an automatic tranny under any circumstances).
As far as the soft top after market, Bestop is the manufacturer of the new tops used by DC on the brand new Jeeps, so you could get EXACTLY the same top as you would get from the factory.
There is no way in the world to get both tops as cheaply as you can by getting the dual top option, assuming you want the same quality of hard top and soft top that you would get from the factory.
If you have a good place to store the hard top, and if you don't have to depend on using the Jeep on rainy days, then you might find the hard top only to be a pretty good deal. I have an old pickup to drive to work and for most of my running around, and having the hard top only isn't so bad for me. I take that puppy and the doors off in the spring and don't put them back on until the fall. I just use my old truck for rainy days.
Hope this helps
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Larry
I can tell you, though, that it's not a power issue that limits the towing, especially if you have the 4.0 L inline six.
It is because of the short wheelbase (and maybe the high center of gravity?) of the Jeep that you are limited in what you tow. It's a matter of handling and stopping, I think.
Somebody jump in here and give us the straight skinny on this.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
It is the short wheelbase. The power is more than enough. The same engine/tranny in a Cherokee (a heavier vehicle) will tow 5000 lbs.
It has to do with driver ability, lawyers, and courts more than vehicle capabilities.
I tow a 2000 lb boat in the summer with no problems at all. Sometimes it is close to the spare when in a tight turn, however.
;-)
Thanks for replying to my message. To answer a few of your questions:
I would love to get the SE, but my wife cant/refuses to drive stick so the 4.0 Auto is the ONLY option as you know.
I see what you mean about going with the Sport to get the dual top. You do save money. That would be the best route to go if I wanted longer (arrg)for 0% financing to come back. But, if I bought soon and got the 4.9% I think I would go with the X with a Hard top and by the soft top later in the spring. Then Im not paying Interest on a soft top that I couldn't use till April/May anyways.
I assume you have a Sport then? Do you have ABS or did you skip it? How is your stopping with or without it? Is there anything else that would of done differently when you purchased your Wrangler?
Anyone else's insights would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Brandt
OK, I feel better now.
Let's see, what IS my definition of moderate offroading?? Hmmm. I think what I do is probably on the high side of moderate, but cetainly not extreme.
Rock crawling is pretty extreme, I would say. Have you seen pictures of what they do with Jeeps out west, where the main type of "wheelin" is rock crawling? Whoa! They go almost straight up rock faces, over boulders, and everything you can imagine.
Anything that puts a major stress on the drive train would be where you would want the Dana 44. Like a tire spinning and then grabbing all of a sudden, especially with a locker in the differential.
Bigger tires put more stress on the differential too. I think you would be OK with the Dana 35 up to 33" tires, but that would depend on the type of offroading you would be doing.
I hope I haven't overdone this Dana 35 vs Dana 44 thing, but I read so many posts in another forum where all the folks are offroaders, and there are NUMEROUS posts about the Dana 35 being too weak and axle shafts breaking.
The safest thing to do when in doubt is to get the doggone Dana 44, and then you don't have to worry about it.
It leaves a lot of options open for you in the future.
Is it absolutely essential? NO.
Sorry I can't be more definitive. I am simply trying to supply you with the best info for your decision.
I CAN say that I am very glad that I got the Dana 44. Could I have done everything I have done so far if I had just the Dana 35? Most likely, yes.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Hope this helps
Check out the Towing tips for SUVs discussion for more generic info.
Steve, Host
dewars
I did not go with the ABS option, since I couldn't get the Dana 44 rear end and ABS together. I probably would not have gotten ABS anyway, though. I have heard that ABS doesn't work very well at all if larger tires are put on the vehicle.
Four wheel disc brakes were not an option in 01, but I think they are now, and that would be a good option (unless that means you get ABS too).
Jeep brakes (with the old shoe type brakes in the back at least) are not very strong. I would be happy to have four wheel discs.
The larger the tires you put on the Jeep, the weaker the braking is, unless the brakes are modified somehow.
Anything I would have done differently?? Good question, and fortunately I think I can answer that with a qualified "No." I say "qualified," because there is one minor thing... tow hooks. I skipped the tow hook/foglight option, since I really didn't think I would be offroading the Jeep and originally didn't think the fog lights looked good (I do now, though).
So, why did I make it a point to get the Dana 44, if I wasn't planning on offroading? Because, I figured if it was a heavier duty rear end, then it should last longer and would allow me to go to bigger tires in the future. I was hoping to get a lift and bigger tires, but it was going to be just for "looks." Well, one little offroading trip changed that! Now I would be getting the lift and bigger tires for better offroad capability (and looks too).
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
P.S. Some of you other guys and gal (mtngal) chime in here with YOUR opinions! I'm hogging up too much space here.
There are also some shots of what can happen with a Dana 35 if you do much wheelin'.
Take a look.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
http://community.webshots.com/album/50936701UXBYSu
I want a D44 now! That broken 35 pic scares me...
On the other hand, I want people to realize that a Dana 44 is a much stronger rear end that allows bigger tires and lockers in the future and will stand up to much tougher offroad situations.
In the final analysis, it is YOUR call and YOUR money, so take what has been said and make your own decision. I think I have presented the case as best I can, so you judge for yourselves whether the Dana 44 is something you think is very important.
There are lots of people out there on Dana 35's, and most of them don't have a problem.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Just kidding..
WELCOME to all the new jeepers here..
Keep us all posted on what you get.
Im not a JEEP purist like the rest of the folks in here, I bought my just because it looks cool.
and NO offroading for me, I might get a scratch.
But I do agree with tom, If you think you will EVER do anykind of offroading go with the 44's
PLUS-- that wouls make it better appealing IF you ever decide to re-sale.
BTW Mine-- TAZZ 01 60th aniiversary Edition
Black with black dual tops. Auto with all the sahara goodies.
KEEP JEEPIN
BAMA
This makes me think we should have a slogan around here - something like "Tom reports, you decide!"
tidester, host
When are YOU getting a Jeep??? I'll be glad to advise you on rear end selection.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
I almost got one once! A new vehicle won't be on the horizon for a while but when the time comes I would consider it!
tidester, host
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
2003 Sport Patriot Blue
3.07 or 3.73 - I haven't decided and I need to really bounce that off my brothers although I'm leaning to the 3.73 since there isn't an additional cost
Dana 44 - point taken about what if...
rear trac loc limited slip differential
four wheel disc brakes
sentry key
steps - my mom needs to be able to get in the jeep
air conditioning
am/fm with cd
P225/75R15 tires
dual top - black
add a trunk - for shopping
I keep bouncing between buying the 7 speakers or taking the standard 4
and oh yes, not to be forgotten - floor mats
I think that covers it
Susan
You said the other day that you were getting a five speed, so your fifth gear will keep your RPMs down, even with the 3.73 rear end.
You will have much better power, and, if you ever go with bigger tires, you will be very glad you have the 3.73s.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
P.S. I understand your wanting steps for your mom, but please take my advice and remove them before you go offroad. They aren't that hard to take off and put back. It's almost a certainty that they will hang on something and get torn off, if you leave them on for offroading. The bad thing is that the steps themselves will not be the only thing damaged most likely. The body of the Jeep usually gets bent too when the steps hang on something.
I told a buddy that was going wheelin' for the first time that he needed to take off his steps, but he didn't do it. Guess what? Yep, he bent his steps and the lower part of his Jeep's body that day.
Larry
You often see XJs (Cherokees) running the trails with TJs or other Wranglers.
Kinda hard to take the top and doors off of a Cherokee, though. (well maybe not taking them off, but getting them back on)
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
I don't rock crawl, and it never gets muddy enough around here to dig up roads like those pictures, so I'd consider the X. I'm more likely to run into sand or snow. So it really does depend on what you think you will be doing as to what you need.
Mine happened to have fog lights, which I didn't care about when I bought it. Now I am really glad that I have them - they are great in snow and fog when you have to navigate by the sides of the road.
I have the dana44 and maybe will never have a real need for it, but I consider it cheap insurance. I spent like two hundred or so dollars for the dana44 alone without a tire package. Like my auto insurance, if I need it I have it and I won't have to worry about maybe paying big bucks for repairs. The dana44 does not care if you run stock tires or large ones. Have the 3.73 since it is part of the dana44 package.
I got the trac loc limited slip. If I need it, I have it. I have heard both pro and con on the subject.
I have ac which is nice at times in Texas, but I don't normally use it.
I have the sentry key since the Wrangler is the second most stolen car in the US. Maybe next year we can make number 1.
I went with the 4 speaker sound system and the cd. Lots of after market stuff out there that is better.
I got a 5 speed since I have never owned an auto in my life. If I lived in a large city I might have considered the auto, but I doubt it.
I ordered floor mats which I promptly replaced with Husky liners. The Husky liners hold the dirt and water. I also bought cheap seat covers to protect the seats.
I have tilt steering, don't know if I have ever used it. It was part of the Sport package.
I have tow hooks and fog lights which were both included. Tow hooks are a great thing to have, not sure about the fog lights (no snow in this part of TX). I would prefer to have offroad lights mounted in that area.
I test drove a 4 cylinder. I bought a 6 cylinder.
If I was doing lots of city driving maybe a 4 cylinder, but I doubt it. Gas mileage is not that much different.
Got a soft top since I was not worried to much about theft, weather, or safety in a wreck. If I lived in a large city I might have reconsidered the theft part of the picture. I don't think fiberglass will make much difference in case of a wreck.
They did not offer the 4 wheel disc brakes when I got mine. If it had been available I would have ordered it.
I did not order cruise control and I wish I had. It might have helped some on my gas mileage.
I was going to get a trailer hitch, but drug my feet long enough for a new truck to come into the picture. For what I was going to haul (a small dual axle stock trailer), I was just not comfortable using the Wrangler.
The above is what I ordered on my 2002 Sport and my thoughts on the why. Just my reasons, if it helps with the buying process I think that is great.
Tom has put out lots of good stuff on pretty much the whole shooting match. From steps to towing he has covered it. He just has not talked much about colors:)
Hope all the new folks get what they want and that they keep on posting about how much they enjoy their vehicles. The Wrangler is fun both on and off the road.
Maybe I should have gotten the Rubicon:)
I am still a happy camper.
-twylie