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Towing with the Highlander Hybrid
I just got back from a little trip towing a 4000lb trailer from Eugene, OR over the Cascades into south central Oregon (a little town called Paisley). Tow vehicle - 4wd HiHy, towed vehicle - Fun Finder 189FBR trailer. Here are the results.
First - towing was a dream. A couple of times, got a little tail-wag at 65MPH - I shouldn't be going that fast! Hit the trailer brake and it straightened right out. Went up the hills (mountains) with power to spare. Elevation change was from about 700ft to 4500, with some passes slightly higher.
Total round trip is 450 miles - this was the number of miles towing.
Total miles driven is 730 miles.
Therefore, about 60% of the mileage was towing.
Total average MPG was 16.7
Since I didn't figure out the separate MPG for towing or not, I don't have the exact numbers, but I usually average 28MPG when not towing, so do the math. OK - I'll do the math.
730 miles at 16.7 MPG = 43.71257 gallons
280 miles at 28.0 MPG = 10.00000 gallons
That leaves 450 miles and 33.71257 gallons which works out to 13.34813 MPG during the towing part. Note, your mileage might vary!
I know that I am slightly over the total towable weight for this vehicle, but I felt that it could easily handle the load in braking, handling, and acceleration - especially the acceleration!
Jim
First - towing was a dream. A couple of times, got a little tail-wag at 65MPH - I shouldn't be going that fast! Hit the trailer brake and it straightened right out. Went up the hills (mountains) with power to spare. Elevation change was from about 700ft to 4500, with some passes slightly higher.
Total round trip is 450 miles - this was the number of miles towing.
Total miles driven is 730 miles.
Therefore, about 60% of the mileage was towing.
Total average MPG was 16.7
Since I didn't figure out the separate MPG for towing or not, I don't have the exact numbers, but I usually average 28MPG when not towing, so do the math. OK - I'll do the math.
730 miles at 16.7 MPG = 43.71257 gallons
280 miles at 28.0 MPG = 10.00000 gallons
That leaves 450 miles and 33.71257 gallons which works out to 13.34813 MPG during the towing part. Note, your mileage might vary!
I know that I am slightly over the total towable weight for this vehicle, but I felt that it could easily handle the load in braking, handling, and acceleration - especially the acceleration!
Jim
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Most of my camping is in the midwest, but I do get into the mountains occasionally. I'd like to tow a 19-23 foot light-weight travel trailer (<3000#). Do you think I can get better than 20 mpg if I stay under 65 mph on flat ground? Should I get a 4WD model if I plan to tow?
Thanks in advance for any information.
Running the genset exhaust through the RX exhaust system might result in keeping the catalytic converter up to temp, or at least closer too.
On the other hand if I were to use the Honda water cooled genset maybe I could also use the hot water to keep the climate control reheat/remix mode "happy" .
Any thoughts...??
The car is very efficient at recharging while in motion, it charges quickly when coasting and braking so charging is likely not a problem in motion.
The most common complaint right now is what happens whenever we turn off and turn on the engine again. The ICE comes on and promptly consumes 0.1-0.2 MPG to heat oil and the CC. If the battery is low (2 pink bars), the ICE will consume 0.3 MPG to heat the oil, the CC and charge the battery until it is 3 bars. If one takes trips around town with many full-engine-off stops, this consumption can add up real quick. It is unclear what can be done after-market because SULEV standard requires the CC to work perfectly.
Another complaint is why the car is not tuned to run on electric more often. I would love to have an EV switch and plug-in as well but the car is already engineered to be very responsive to driver demands. It can accelerate very fast and it can also crawl along on electric like a turtle. With patience and conservative driving techniques, one can get a lot from this vehicle as is.
I hope one day Toyota will offer an upgrade to add plug-in, higher capacity battery pack and a soft-EV switch. My wish is the ability to accelerate from 0-65 MPH on electric and maintain 65 MPH for 30 miles on electric.
Note that the Prius' city fuel economy is substantially better than highway, both in actuality and according to EPA estimates. Given the design of the Hybrid Synergy concept that is as it should be.
So what happened with the HH and RXh?
I don't think it's entirely about the battery capacity being too low, I think the problem is that unlike the Prius the HH's ICE must be run often enough to keep the catalyst and the water jacket HOT!
Resulting in poor city MPG but stellar highway MPG since on the highway the ICE must run almost continuously anyway.
But regardless, using a 3.3L V6 gasoline engine to recharge the hybrid batteries can NEVER be as efficient as using a small 6HP genset running continuously. Mounted on a trailer with pair of bicycle type wheels/tires to reduce roadbed friction and in the airflow "shelter" of the towing vehicle (drafting??).
There is a Lithium-ion phosphate battery called Saphion from
Valence technology that can provide the necessary energy density
and cost. The Edrive guys that are going to modify the Prius next
year in LA are using this battery. About 14Kwh battery will weigh
another extra 200 lb if the current NiMh battery is taken out. The cost
can go down further if a company like Toyota gives mass orders for
this battery.
The battery can be used from 95% charge to 30% for pure
electric. Not topping off and completely discharging the battery can
extend its life to about 3000-4000 deep discharge cycles or
about 8 years which should be enough. Changing the software
to make max speed 65 on electric if charge is available is simple.
This extra 9kwh of pure electric can give the 30 mile range for most
commutes. If the accelerator is pressed hard then ICE will
come on as an assist for rapid acceleration.
When battery is at 30% the car reverts to current hybrid mode.
Assuming 12K miles driving per year and 8K commute wth
electric the effective gas mileage will be ideally 90 mpg. I think
80 mpg is doable. Charging costs $1 per night. If using solar
panels it will be 0.
This is as opposed to fuel cells which currently costs $1 million.
From previous research (pre-Valence), I found out that the HH uses the Panasonic Metal Case Prismatic batteries. I believe it also uses their CCU (Charge Controller). The NiMh has significantly higher power throughput, double that of lithium-ion while lithium-ion has significantly higher specific energy, double that of NiMh.
I believe Wisconsin U conducted research on this and their conclusion was for HEV to use NiMh for now due to its higher power throughput, a requirement for HEV.
Thanks for the tip on Valence, looking forward to reading their spec.
reduced acceleration requirements in city driving and at sustained speeds
in highway driving. When further power is needed the ICE is always
there for assist.
Another option that Toyota has is to use the 2.4L 160 HP I4 ICE engine
in a greener model trim hybrid instead of the 210 HP 3.3L V6.
This will reduce weight by 150 lb offsetting the extra battery weight.
It will reduce cost by 2k. So plug-in will be just $2-3K extra.
It will give additional 3-4mpg in pure hybrid mode.
Mate this with 2, 40 Kw electric motors on both axels or
4, 20 kw motors at the 4 wheels.
0-60 acceleration will be 9.5s instead of 7.3s using both power.
This can be enough for many people. Then effective mpg
can exceed 100mpg.
Personally, just speaking as a consumer, I am very satisfied with the car. It has a very fine balance of performance and thriftiness, handling and ride smoothness, and overall interior comfort is very good. The stereo is not too shabby either. From a strictly "value" standpoint for cars in its class with comparable performance, this car has a ton of value especially with gas up to $3.22 (premium) a gallon where I live (SF Bay, CA).
If CR's numbers of the other tested cars are believable, my HH is getting 69% to 115% better mpg than these cars! If Toyota offers all sorts of upgrades for better mpg without sacrificing performance, I will definitely consider them but even if Toyota does nothing, I am very happy with this purchase.
Ace Techno - Larry
The ICE will kick in to keep you at over 1 bar on the traction battery. The system is designed to keep you between 20 and 80% charged (thereabouts) and not more of less for maximum battery lifetime.
When we first got it, i could get up to around 20 on the motor. Now I can get close to 40, from a standstill, but only by being really stealthy about accelerating. We love sneaking around on battery at tailgates, and so on.
The ICE will always kick in to warm up the catalytic converter when you're just starting out with a cold engine. It's not ideal, but it improves emissions scores, which are apparently stupidly conceived with respect to hybrids.
Make sure you're aligned properly (its not the same as the non-hybrid, so i understand), and most of us run high tire pressures - I use 40 psi all around.
Air conditioning will cost you several mpg.
There are a lot of advanced tricks, such as pulse-and-glide, explained elsewhere, because i'm sure i do it wrong.
-- rick
Q1: As Idaten had said, the ICE should kick in to charge when it is down to 2 pink bars. Was the engine ON and transmission in PARK?
Q2: Try higher tire pressure (but within Toyota recommendation) and be patient with break-in time. Most of us here use 35-40 psi. Idaten is already getting 28.7 MPG at 1250 miles while we never could get beyond 24 mpg at 1250 miles. Idaten is using 40 psi while we used 35 psi, so tire pressure may be the trick.
Q3: This car cannot accelerate using electric only. Let it start rolling from rest by itself and then tap gently to slowly bring speed up to whatever it can reach. Idaten can bring it up to 40 mph while we never could go beyond 25 mph on electric at 1250 miles. Again, it could be the tire pressure of 40 psi versus 35 psi.
Please have patience and expect progress to be gradual rather than instant. I have just been surprised by Idaten's result so will be trying 40 psi next. This is part of the fun using a car like this! Enjoy the ride in the process!
We keep the Head lights on all the time for added safety (auto mode). Curious to know if electrical consumption cuts down on MPG? Would more electrical demand cause the motor to kick on sooner than with less electrical demand?
When at a stop we always leave the car in "D" never park or "N" I have on occasion just took my foot off the break and rolled up to speed just ever so easy on the gas. I recall the engine kicked in at something like 18-20 mph. I can really only do this on side streets.
Just wanted to add, that we got the dealer to come down on the price $1000.00 off MSRP. They kicked in all the paper work for free and gave me the first 3 oil changes for free. Free tank of gas, polish and wax job. A coupon book with like 50 coupons that have anywhere from 5% off to 25% off for parts and service. And a free dash cover. Not the best bargain I was hopping for, but I guess every little bit helps. They also gave me $2000.00 over blue book for my 2002 Jeep Liberty 4X4. It helped that I took 2 cell phones with me and had two dealerships fitting for my business while I sitting in the seats at a 3rd dealership trying to make a deal as well.
Thanks Ace Techno - Larry
The ICE kicks in and raises the battery to 3 bars, then shuts off. For me it happened just as it dropped to one bar.
2. I seem to average only 20 miles to a gallon. I am already on my 3rd tank of gas. I am not a lead foot, but do drive about 15 miles of free way one way. Does this seem right?
Unfortunately, yes. It'll get better - I started at 22mpg on the first tank and got up to 25 mpg on the 3rd tank. Freeway driving and short trips hurt mileage - the freeway driving doesn't use the hybrid system unless it's a lot of hills and the short trip hurts because the ICE always turns on to warm up the cat converter.
3. Lastly. How fast can I go on electric power before I should feel the gas motor kick in? It seems like the wheels make a complete 180 turn and then the gas kicks in. I would figure If I don't tax the engine I should be able to cruise around the neighborhood on straight electrical power alone, right?
This, too, improves with time. I am on my 4th tank and I can get it up to 20 MPH on level ground with just battery and the A/C turned off. At the beginning it kicked in more or less immediately. You DO need to have a light foot to do this.
Have fun!
reduced acceleration requirements in city driving and at sustained speeds
in highway driving. When further power is needed the ICE is always
there for assist.
Another option that Toyota has is to use the 2.4L 160 HP I4 ICE engine
in a greener model trim hybrid instead of the 210 HP 3.3L V6.
This will reduce weight by 150 lb offsetting the extra battery weight.
It will reduce cost by 2k. So plug-in will be just $2-3K extra.
It will give additional 3-4mpg in pure hybrid mode.
Mate this with 2, 40 Kw electric motors on both axels or
4, 20 kw motors at the 4 wheels.
0-60 acceleration will be 9.5s instead of 7.3s using both power.
This can be enough for many people. Then effective mpg
can exceed 100mpg."
Much said here and only one reply:
If you want really high MPG, don't buy a 4500 lb vehicle and then try and equip it to run like a Prius. Buy a 2900 lb Prius. There is no substitute for lighter weight and smaller engine size.
The HH and other hybrid SUVs are a compromise between the higher weight and wind drag caused by the SUV platform and larger size, and the need for somewhat better mileage.
The fact that some HH are getting nearly as good MPG as the Escape Hybrid is telling - there are limits to the capabilies of the Atkinson cycle small engine when mated to a heavy platform. I actually think that if the I4 had yielded significantly better MPG in HH prototypes, Toyota would have produced that engine instead of the V6.
So, they can build lighter cars (because they did). I can't believe the Prius weighs the same as my 4Runner . . . you should see the size difference, the Prius could fit inside. Hard enough to work out why the Highlander weighs so much more.
If conservation is more important, Prius would be our choice and then we will buy a real 4x4 V6 or V8 for outdoor adventure use. With gas at $3.22 a gallon, I am glad we did not do this.
It is fun to tweak a car like the HH so some will indeed try to tweak it for better MPG in town while sacrificing its performance. Our family prefer its current blend of efficiency and performance. More MPG is good but less performance is bad and more performance is not necessary :-).
The above statement is not true. There is a substitute. It is using multiple
sources of power. Like ICE and grid charged batteries in a plug-in hybrid.
I want a large vehicle to haul my extended family on long trips (maybe 2 to
3 times a year) but also one that lets me commute daily efficiently. I do not
want to buy two vehicles for the two purposes. A grid-charged plug-in hybrid
will be able to do both these tasks efficiently. The car is just configured on-the-fly
for the different requirements. That solution can be provided and the
technology exists. Solar power feeding into the grid will cost less in the long run and a 60 mile square area in the US has enough solar power to run all the
vehicles running in the US.
Pure electric is poor solution due to limited range and long charge times.
Pure ICE is poor due to gas costs, dependence on foreign countries, and environmental reasons. However combine the two and you get a much better solution. Now replace gas in the ICE with ethanol or bio-diesel and there
just might be a complete lasting solution.
As for weight, the I4 highlander base weighs 3500lbs. The V6 limited AWD weighs
3950lbs, the HH weighs 4250lbs. Unfortunately the extra battery and electric drive
train adds weight. A plug-in using the I4 can be possible within 4300 lbs.
3950lbs, the HH weighs 4250lbs. Unfortunately the extra battery and electric drive
train adds weight. A plug-in using the I4 can be possible within 4300 lbs."
Thanks for the update, but Edmunds lists the FWD model at a Curb Weight: 4070 lbs, AWD at 4245 lbs. I will modify my statement to include RH400 and HH:
"If you want really high MPG, don't buy a 4000-4500 lb vehicle, with large frontal section and large V6 engine, and then expect MPG like a Prius. Buy a 2900 lb Prius. There is no substitute for lighter weight and smaller engine size."
I must disagree on the concept of multiple sources of power in the context of this discussion. The Prius achieves it's MPG based on small engine size coupled with the HSD supplementing the power of the ICE.
Since both the sedan and the SUV use the same powertrain, it is not a factor in the comparison.
If you want high MPG, you need to think smaller, less frontal section, and lighter. (and going slower at highways speeds).
I am not saying the HH or RH400 are bad vehicles their design purpose; on the contrary they are excellent designs. I am saying that their primary purpose is not high MPG, and people should not expect high MPG. Better than in ICE only SUV, yes, but not on on the same order as a smaller sedan.
I mention this because I keep seeing posts from people who are displeased at their MPG, when in fact they are getting MPG within an expected range for this class of vehicle. People keep seeing "hybrid" and yet they only understand "high MPG". MPG is relative to the engine size (and tuning), the frontal area, and the weight of the vehicle - in short, the vehicle class.
(See thread)
The 3500 and 3950 lb weights mentioned are for the non-hybrid highlanders.
A plug-in highlander hybrid can have effective gas mileage of 100 mpg.
A plug-in Prius can have effective gas mileage of 150-200 mpg.
I do not know if 100 mpg is good enough for you. If not then HH will
not be an option.
A hybrid vehicle is more efficient than a pure ICE vehicle but all
the energy comes from gas. This is not a long term solution as
gas will run out. A plug-in vehicle gets its energy from
external electric grid and gas - hence multiple sources of energy.
If gas can be replaced with bio-fuel then it becomes a long term
solution.
Once all the sources of energy that you use are renewable and
eco-friendly (solar and bio-fules) it is not necessary to be very
efficient in its use. There is enough solar energy in this world
to meet global energy needs 1000 times over.
Look at all the RX300 and RX330 clear majority of customers who are perfectly happy with the ~200 HP V6 in those.
Yes, there are a few of those will be thrilled with the extra BOOST of 268 HP, but wouldn't the majority of us, even pre-$3 gas prices, have been happy with less HP and stellar fuel economy?
Personally I think I'll pass on the Rx400h until Toyota wise's up and converts to the atkinson cycle. Or I find a custom cam grinding shop, grind the heads down to 13:1 compression, and do it myself.
Or just thow a KGE3500Ti genset in the back and continously charge the hybrid batteries more economically, dramatically moreso, than the OEM ICE.
Back to the original questions - I tow a ~3000lb tailer behind my 4wd. It is a Shadow Cruiser 189FBR, dual axle. The trailer tows very smoothly behind the Highlander. My only complaint is there seems to be towing mirrors available for the Highlander (except the generic ones that don't look or work very well).
My only trip so far has been into the mountains about 100 miles from home. I got about 15mpg on that part of the tank while towing. The electric doesn't kick in much on the level, mostly is used for more power on hills, so you don't get many 'free' miles out of it. I got the 4wd for occasional snow, not for towing, but I assume it can't hurt to have the extra HP and traction for towing.
I doubt you could get 20mpg under almost any situation while towing. The 15mpg I got was mostly 55mph to 30mph.
Jim
Anyone else getting this? Anyone know where the sensor for the CC is?
Instead of warming for 30 seconds, the engine stays on longer now. It also comes on twice more in the 3.5 mile drive to the freeway. I used to be able to nurse it on electric all the way to the freeway without the engine, no longer true.
Each 30-sec burn eats up 0.2 MPG. Each >30-sec burn (1 min?) eats up 0.3 MPG. So in our 3.5 mile trek on a cold morning, after a total of 3 burns, we are losing 1 MPG due to engine warm-up.
I read somewhere it is warming not just the CC but also the engine oil. Because the engine has to turn ON and OFF instantaneously without some sort of pre-spin (idle), the engine oil needs to be warmed properly to protect the engine when it spins up to high RPM to provide power. if I can find the source again, will post this info.
I do not have towing info but do have 2 places on Edmund that have related info - HL on Outer Bank.
I found these long ago last year when I first researched the Highlander's capability off-road.
When you first get to these boards, the photos may not load, you will see the ".jpg". Try to reload the page by going back 1 page in Edmund and going forward back to the page with the photo. Then the photos seem to load fine. if you have problems, let me know, may be we can arrage some kind of e-mail contact where I can send you the PDF file. I downloaded his posts with pictures after I found them last year.
(1) First board:
Toyota Highlander Owners: Photo Gallery
Post #25 of 38 by poster "stevtec".
(2) Second board
Toyota 4Runner vs Toyota Highlander
Post #44 of 65 by "stevtec".
OR try this "search link" that takes you to Stevtec's posts listing:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef234ee!keywords=allin%3Amsgtext%2- - 0stevtec&count=20
Unfortunately, in the second board post #44, either Edmund has removed his pictures or there is a loading problem. The picture link named "...Highlander3.jpg" is the same as the second photo in the first board post #25 where the HL is on sand on the beach.
The second board has specific sand-depth information that may be helpful to you.
Good luck!
He said the hitch on the HH looks awkward and is not flush with the bumper.
This is the first I have heard of that and wondered if anyone else has noticed it. Not sure if he is telling the truth, or they just don't want to install it.
Thanks
http://www.hihychat.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85
http://www.hihychat.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85
I stand corrected: the hitch protrudes perhaps 2 inches.
Thanks,
Jim
Do you have a 2-inch hitch?
From your very detail report, it looks like towing on freeways is a breeze. That really adds to our confidence level.
Thanks!
Jim
Jim
J-