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Ford Expedition

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  • davantdavant Posts: 294
    C,

    We've had our '03 EB about 10 months, still in love. Other than mirror probs, it's been smooth sailing. There's another site that talks about the AC and brake dust (I assume you didn't mean break dust which are those crumbs next to the coffee pot) but I can't mention it here (initials are BON). E-mail me, I'll send it.

    The AC problem is quite common. It is so hard to pin down and I haven't gotten in resolved in two attempts, no parts changed yet. It happens on our rig at about the 1-2 hour point, lasts a few mins (feels like hot flashes might if I had them), and then back to normal.

    There will be new brake pads in a Technical Service Bulletin out this fall that are of a less dust shedding material. It's specifically for (as Ford puts it), "those that find excessive brake material deposits objectionable." I for one enjoy the black front rims versus shiny aluminum when I skip a week of washing, can't speak for the masses, LOL. I have the $80 set of Kleenwheels and they help lots. I took them off as I fear they'll contribute to heat build up and if rotors warp prematurely, the dealer could hold them responsible--warranty voided? Best of luck, happy Fording!
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I had this odd A/C issue on my Navigator when it was new. Turned out to be an expansion valve hanging up. New expansion valve, everything ice cold since.

    I have been putting up with the brake dust myself. My chrome 18 inch wheels really look great with graphite tint, I thought it was an option I had been graced with.
  • td19td19 Posts: 1
    I have been looking for a used 99 or 2000 Expy OR Tahoe. Now I have to pick between this two options.
    (a) 2000 Expedition XLT with 90k miles. Asking $12500 (I know the single owner and all miles are highway miles)
    (b) 1999 Tahoe LT with 73K miles. Asking $10900

    Should I prefer newer vehilcal or with less miles?
  • jrc346jrc346 Posts: 337
    Honestly I have experience with both. I own a 1999 Expedition Eddie Bauer 4WD with 88K. A good buddy of mine has a 1999 Yukon 4WD with about 125K on it now. I think it's fine now but around the 70K mark had a TON of problems. I know that's not the case with all Tahoes and Yukons, but I think for the two vehicles you are looking at, the Expedition is probably the better choice. For one, my buddy had to do his brakes probably once every 12-15K. I now know that just recently that GM came out with a revised proportioning valve and new rear shoes to help rectify the problem. I think for him it has helped the rotor warping problem, but not the fast wearing out of the pads. My brakes are being done for the second time as I speek (only the rear pads). He has had many electrical problems, many stemming from the power locks and the HVAC. His leather seats have worn through to the padding on the drivers side and the color has worn off in patches on the passenger side (so get the cloth seats if you get the Tahoe). On My Expy the leather drivers seat is wearing in the same area (near the edge closest the the door) but only the size of an area smaller than your pinky finger, and it is no where near being worn through to the padding.

    There are things that I do like about his Yukon though. I really like the 350 5.7L. What a great engine, not to mention it sounds great. My 5.4 sounds good, but only sings when it's reving high (which is not really often (gas$$$)). I also like that he has a 2WD option, where as on my Expy you only get A4WD, 4HI, 4LO. The last thing that surprizes me, is that he can be a lot harder on his gas pedal, and still get as good, if not better gas mileage than I do. All things considered I guess they both have tradeoffs. I like my Expy more than my friend's Yukon mostly because my truck has been bulletproof and his has been a money drain.

    Two things to expect with the Tahoe and Yukon is a clunk when engaging Drive from Reverse and Vice Versa. This is NORMAL and is caused by play in the driveline. The other thing is lots of brake jobs. It is just a characteritic of that model. The 2000 and newer Tahoes have solved the brake problem with 4-wheel disc brakes (much better).
    I am just one guy, that has one Expy and a buddy that has one Yukon. Not all Expy's are great, and not all Yukons/Tahoes are bad. This is just my experience, so do what you will with this.
    Goodluck with your research and your decision:-)
  • I'm looking to buy a 2003 Expedition and my dealer has been able to locate one with everything I want except AdvanceTrac. I'm trying to decide if I should settle for this or keep looking in hopes that I find one with AdvanceTrac. I'm interested in others' opinions about the AdvanceTrac option and how important it is (I live in New England). Thanks.
  • zman3zman3 Posts: 857
    That is a hard question for someone else to answer. It depends on how much you trust your driving skills. Our 03 has it. It is the first vehicle that we have owned that has a stability control system and we are extremely impressed with the system. Fortunately for us the only time we needed it this past winter was messing around in snow covered parking lots. It never saved us on the road in a panic situation but based on testing it, it seems like it would be a huge help in certain situations.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,918
    zman3 has a good point. it sounds like you have to be willing to make some kind of emergency maneuvers to activate the system. i'm thinking you have to have faith that it will handle like a mustnag gt when you need it. how do you expect it to help you?
    maybe ford should start an advancetrac driving school, so you'll know what you paid for. :)
    imo an expedition will give up a lot of itself before it gets to you, if you don't get it on it's side.
  • zman3zman3 Posts: 857
    We actually have activated it in "normal" driving. My wife likes it because it will keep the tail end from swinging around when taking a snowy/icy 90 degree turn. She can pretty much just mash the accelerator and go, no need to worry about any fishtailing. That should be something that is pretty easy to control, but to her the AdvanceTrac is important now that she has it.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I also have had experience with both cars you are considering, and jrc has given you sound advice, IMO. Couple of things he didn't mention, and one I don't completely agree with. That first. The clunk in the driveline of the Tahoe, while normal from the point of it's going to happen to every one of them, is not a good thing and should be fixed. A good grease packing will do it, but you need a mechanic familiar with the problem. He didn't mention that about every one of them (Tahoes) eventually will breach the intake manifold, potentially flooding your engine with coolant. So watch for that. Fuel pumps, alternators and other assorted repairs are to be expected.

    The Expeditions generally hold up much better from this vintage, unless you get a bad one, which can happen no matter what you buy.
  • jrc346jrc346 Posts: 337
    Thank you for those couple extra bits of information. The only reason I said that the clunk was normal, was because that is what the dealer told my buddy when he inquired about it, LOL! Figures doesn't it? The intake manifold issue is something that I was completely unaware of. You hit the nail on the head with the Fuel pump. He is on his second one, though his alternator is still original. Other problems he has had are as follows.

    BRAKES!!!
    Broken exhaust "Y" pipe at exhaust mainifold (never seen that before)
    Bad water pump
    Bad radiator (they break in one spot that is plastic, and they can't be recored)
    5 bad u-joints, and counting (something must be out of balance)
    Bad pitman arm
    4WD-issues
    Oh geeze, there is so much more, and it has basically been a big yellow lemon.

    I do know two others with Yukons (1998 and 1999) and they haven't been as bad, but they have the clunk problem (like they all do) and the wearing leather seats. Plus they don't have as many miles on them.

    I had to dig through my repair records to see what repairs I have done on my Expy just to make sure I was accurate.
    With 88K I have had to do the following,

    38K new front brake pads
    72K new battery
    73K new Alternator (was told my bad battery killed it)
    88K new rear brake pads
    That's it! I love this rig!
    Again NV, thanks for the info :-)
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    You know, on the Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban, (if the 1500), they have car brakes on them, which is why they last in the 12,000 mile range. I hear they're fixing that one of these years.

    My Navigator got 60,000 on the original brakes, and they weren't done yet at that point either! That's performance and quality to me.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    I have a 2003 Expedition XLT for a day.
    I kind of like it other than it isn't as smooth-riding and quiet as I thought it would be.
    Is the top line model any quieter than an XLT?
  • davantdavant Posts: 294
    I have an '03 Eddie Bauer and also test drove an XLT. Both seemed just as quiet, not sure what could be done to improve either. They both have the same body with foam filled panels for quietness and independent rear suspension that results in a smooth, compliant ride. Keep in mind these are trucks beneath the well designed stiff frames capable of towing 8,900 pounds. It was a compromise I think Ford got right. If you have money to spare maybe the Navigator rides smoother. The XLT to EB differences are trim and toys. The EB has a nicer stereo to take your mind off whatever you hear.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    It seems to be the engine that's the problem. It feels powerful at parking lot speeds to the point almost being jumpy, but once you are moving at road speeds and want to accelerate, there isn't enough reserve power, so you have to floor it and get a bunch of engine noise at that point. It is too bad that such a big Ford engine doesn't put out the power like the big Chevy Vortecs and Toyota's smaller V8.
    A Navigator with 300HP might be better, but the styling is over the top and it's too pricey.
    Maybe by 2005 the Expedition will have a more powerful engine (like the current Navigator) that can move the Expedition around with less effort which would result in less engine noise as a side benefit.
  • The 05 Expy will have the new (F150) 300hp 5.4l 3 valve engine. It was supposed to be late availability in the '04s but apparently capacity can't supply the F150 and Expy at the same time
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    As long as the 300HP engine is not noiser and there is no significant increase in price. It might be quieter in real world use simply because it won't need to be pushed as hard.
    The Expedition is not as nice as a Sequioa, (except that the third row seat is usuable for adults in the Expedition)but the price is so much cheaper (after you figure in bigger discounts and rebates on top of that).
    I wonder if the Expedition still works out cheaper in the long run after you factor in the cost of a $0 deductable Ford Premium Care extended warranty as a hedge against expected repair problems after 36K miles and if you consider the added depreciation cost of an Expedition as and expense?
    For a lease, it would probably be cheaper to go with a Sequioa because of higher residuals, so I assume it might cost you less to go with the Toyota if you purchased and then sold or traded it in 5 years later with 75K miles or so on the odometer.

    Has anyone compared the ownership costs over 5 years of and Exp. XLT vs a Sequioa SR5 (or Eddie Bauer vs Sequioa Limited)?
    The Expedition will cost thousands less to purchase, but will be worth thosands less at resale and you may need to spend at least a couple thousand on repairs or prepay the repairs with an extended warranty. Ford depreciation is so massive that it can wipe out everything you saved up front plus more.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    Vehicles like the Expedition are good for long trips with 4 or more people and their luggage or even carpooling with up to 8.
    I'm wondering if many people would be interested if Ford offered XM radio and Directv availability in a couple years.
    Directv is available on planes now:
    http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/asts/sattv.htm
    I'm sure the equipment is too expensive for personal vehicles now, but maybe the price will drop in a few years especially if it were sold mass market.
    It will be really nice to be able to watch HBO, a football game or maybe a PPV movie on a long trip instead of only DVDs.
    Even commuting in traffic, you would be able to have passengers watch live TV from the flip down screen.
    Maybe they could even offer high speed internet access via the same satellite connection.
  • zman3zman3 Posts: 857
    I hear where you are coming from. I own an 03 Expy and really debated getting the Sequoia instead. FWIW here are some of my observations:

    1) The comparable Expy was roughly $4000 less to purchase. This is based on what it actually would have cost me to buy the vehicle, not MSRP. This was with a rebate of $1000 last October, so now the difference would even be more with the higher incentives.

    2) For me at least, with Farmers Insurance, the Sequoia would have been $500 more per year to insure. I plan on keeping the vehicle for roughly 8 years so that would have been $4000 more just for insurance. That puts the overall 8 year tally at $8000 for insurance and purchase price.

    3) Eight year depreciation - I have no idea what the vehicles will be worth then. I am certain that the Toyota will be worth more, but $8000? I doubt that.

    4) Short term depreciation - if you are not a buy 'em and hold 'em type person I would shy away from the Expedition. The resale right now on my 03 is horrendous. I bought it at invoice minus the rebate. I paid roughly $38K for a $45K vehicle. A trade in right now would be roughly $31K. That is a heck of a drop for one year. Can you imagine if I was dumb enought to pay sticker? Ouch. Based on previous vehicles that I have owned I expect the resale values to start to converge on the two vehicles as time goes on. It is worse in the short term.

    So in summary - if this will be a short term vehicle do yourself a favor and don't buy the Ford. If it is more long term I would consider it. I actually liked it just as much as the Sequoia. The fold flat third row is awesome. I decided to take the $8K difference and run. I didn't know how much more the Sequoia would be worth in 8 years so I didn't try to guess. I can always spend $1500-$2000 and get a better extended warranty than the standard Toyota warranty if I have reliability concerns.

    Hope this helps at least a little bit.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    If you really like it and you need some feature not available on the Sequioa (like the flat folding seat and more usable third row seat), then the Expedition is probably worth it in that situation.
    If you are buying only because it was cheaper and you really wanted the Sequoia all along, then 8 years of sacrificing would be hard to handle.

    If I were to get one, I would not keep it for only a year or two, but I wouldn't keep it 8 years either. No extended warranty is going cover the vehicle for 8 years.
    If I were to get an Expedition, I would probably get a 7 year 100K mile $0 deductible Premiumcare extended warranty and sell the truck to a private party after 5 years or so, using the remaining warranty as a selling point to the new buyer.
    I think the best Ford EXP plan (that has full coverage similar to the factory warranty) with 6 or 7 years coverage and 100K miles with zero deductible lists for more like $2500 minus whatever discount you can get and that will wipe out some of the savings over the Toyota. The Toyota is likely to need far fewer repairs, plus it has powertrain coverage for 60 months/60,000 miles included in the price so it would be a much safer bet to skip the extended warranty with the Toyota.
    If you keep it for 8 years, I think many more people will be willing to buy an 8 year old out of warranty Toyota than a similar Ford Expedition, so the resale difference might be quite dramatic even after 8 years.
    A 1997 Taurus LX sedan in my area in "good" condition with 100,000 miles lists for about $2400 trade-in value and a 1997 Honda Accord LX automatic sedan with the same miles and condition lists for about $5000 trade-in. That is more than double the price. It could be the same situation bewteen an Expedition and Sequioa down the road.
  • Let's play with numbers, all 2003 base vehicles with no options...

    Using Edmund's TMV for Purchase Price
    Available Rebates in the Chicago Region
    Residual Values based on MSRP from Automotive Lease Guide

    Exp. E.B. 4wd: $42,355 MSRP
    Purchase $39,105 TMV - $4500 Rebate = $34,605
    Residual Value: 24mo. $20,754 (49%); 36mo. $17,789(42%); 48mo. $15,248(36%); 60mo. $13,130 (31%)

    Sequoia Lim. 4wd: $44,730 MSRP
    Purchase $40,265 TMV - $750 Factory to Dealer Incentive = $39,515
    Residual Value: 24mo. $25496 (57%); 36mo. $21,470 (48%); 48mo. $19,234 (43%); 60mo. $16,997 (38%)

    In this example, the original purchase prices differed by $4910. At no time during the 5 year ownership did the value of the Sequoia Limited exceed that of the Expedition Eddie Bauer by more than the original difference.

    What does this prove? You draw your own conclusions. In my opinion, it does lead a person to conclude that the higher residual value of the Sequoia will never make up for the original difference in purchase price based on the current large Expedition rebate.

    What does this mean to you? Buy the vehicle that gives you the most enjoyment, that fits your needs best, and stop worrying that you'll "take it in the shorts" when it comes time to sell it if you decide on the Expedition.
  • We want to purchase a used 2003 Ford Expedition with cash. However the seller owes money on it to the bank. How can we transfer title from the bank to us? We do not want to trust giving money to the seller, and if we give money to the bank, the bank will sign the title over to the seller.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    There is paperwork the seller signs transfering liability to you and a bill of sale you can give to the bank with the money so the title will go to you. Call the bank. You will need to verify the payoff amount anyway.
    You might be able to give all the money to the bank and they will credit the excess back to the seller or you can write one check for just the payoff and one check to the seller if he is selling for more than the payoff.
    Call the bank and ask them what paperwork is required, then send it to them.
    You might be able to go with the seller to a car dealership that can handle the sale for a fee.
  • davantdavant Posts: 294
    Let's realize something gang. If you intend to make this a short-term ownership don't buy ANY vehicle or you'll lose your a**. If short-term, maybe a lease is better as at least you know exactly how much money you're throwing away up front.

    It all comes down to what you enjoy; either thinking about what your ride might be worth when you're tired of it compared to the other model, or not having to worry because you enjoy it and it works well for a long time. Both vehicles meet that criteria depending on your school of thought as explained so well above.

    I considered the Toyota, Ford (and Chevy too - old school). There was no comparison for me. I couldn't justify some probable future trade-in savings with a $5-8K additional expense up front. Besides, I felt cramped in the back, hated the 3rd row seats, and thought the engine was peppy but not earthy like the XP 5.4. I want room, flexibility, innovation, and safety, all XP fortes. The way I feel is the Sequi feels like a tennis shoe and the XP like slippers. Couple that with the incentives and other new tech features, and it was not hard to choice at all.

    As far as '05 goes I think it'll take more than 300HP to push 6,000 pounds of Expedition around and make it feel sporty, 500HP might do the job, 6 MPG sound good? Once again, IMHO it's a compromise between utility, economy, durability, cost to manufacture, and fun to drive. I feel it's a complement to the Expedition that Nissan felt copied it and called it the Armada. Face it, Ford got it right!
  • SIGGIE1 had a question a few weeks ago on getting CD or FM audio to work for front seat passengers while rear seat passengers watch a DVD with headphones.

    The first time you use the "Dual Play" mode, I believe the Rear Seat defaults to AM, so:
    1: If the Vehicle is in "Single Play" DVD and the driver pushes the "Headphone" button, the Front Seat stays in DVD and the Rear Seat goes to AM. This could be verified if you plug in headphones to confirm what audio channel is being routed to the Rear Seat. If the Front Seat were to then move away from DVD (say to CD), the DVD shuts off because it thinks no one wants to watch it (e.g. Front Seat wants CD and Rear Seat wants AM)
    2: If you find that the Rear Seat IS in AM (or any other NON DVD mode), you should press the Mode button on the Rear Seat until you hear DVD audio in the headphones and the Radio Display says either "DVD Shared" or "RSC DVD".
    3: Once the Rear Seat has selected DVD, the front seat can move away from DVD mode and the movie will continue playing.

    This works for the factory-installed Expedition DVD system -- not sure about dealer-installed versions.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I'm sorry folks, but depreciation aside, I just don't see the beauty in the Sequoia, and I honestly don't feel the Sequoia's engine is quieter or stronger. I clearly acknowledge Toyota's rep for dependability, but I still have to like the truck each morning as I get into it. Your mileage may vary.....
  • I just bought a '03 Expy last week and had the opportunity to use the DVD player for the first time yesterday.

    I'm not sure I have the most efficient method figured out, but after several trial and error trys, what works for me is - Start the DVD, press the 2 and 4 memory buttons on the radio at the same time to place system in Dual Mode (both headphones and speakers are playing DVD audio), Select AM/FM for radio or CD to play CD (DVD audio remains in the headphones).

    After shutting off the truck, I have to go through this sequence each time I start the truck, even though I didn't touch any system buttons prior to shutting it off. Hope this helps.
  • zman3zman3 Posts: 857
    I'm with you on this one, but one would expect that since we bought the Expy over the Sequoia. Don't get me wrong, I liked the Sequoia a lot, I just didn't think it was vastly superior to the Expy, if at all. I looked at them as being different, but basically interchangeable. Then the guaranteed money spoke.
  • Nice posts zman3, s852, Willimjo, Davant, Nvbanker and others on this. Good data presentation. Kind of like Chase Econometrics!

    Two additional comments:

    Depending on whose analysis you read, the Expy savings over the life cycle is between 4K to 8K. Given the idea of present value of money etc. etc. this savings is really much more significant. (For example, the 4K you save today in buying the Ford will be really worth about $10K in 8 years.)

    Secondly, I was interested in S852's comments about the need for a longer aftermarket warranty with the Ford to really even up the playing field with the Sequoia cost situation. Afterall, he implied a Ford wouldn't hold up as well so you should factor in the cost of an additional warranty. Rather than doing that, I checked used prices. Since the Sequoia will last longer, people say, wouldn't a year old Sequoia be worth about what a new Expy is worth? (Putting it another way, lots of people would argue that a 8 year old Sequoia will have a better powertrain than a 7 year old Ford and so they will be worth about the same, despite the year's difference.) Rather than checking just sales prices, I looked at TCO. Lo and behold, Edmunds TCO for a new 2003 Sequia LTD is 69 cents per mile dipping to 61 cents for a used 2002 Sequotia LTD. The Eddie Bauer Ford Edmunds says is 73 cents if bought new and 55 cents if bought as a used 2002.

    So, where did everyone's feelings that a new Ford was less money over the life cycle come from? The EB Expy is more money, significantly more, than a Sequia LTD if bought new. The Ford is only less money if bought used a year later, presumably after all the deprecation is taken out of it. Is the Edmunds data all wet? (Incidentally, I used a New England zip code.) Doesn't the Edmunds data include real world things like rebates??

    A little help, please?
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    This is how edmunds.com determines TCO. You should read it.

    tidester, host
  • zman3zman3 Posts: 857
    This is going to be long...

    Based on what I just read TOC does not seem to take into account incentives. The Total Cash Price appears to be TMV+taxes+fees. It looks like TMV is before incentives. The Sequoia has a TCP of $44685. The Expedition has a TCP of $42,367. Ignoring the sales tax savings on the incentives, the TCP with incentives taken off would be $43935 for the Sequoia in my zip code ($44685-$750 incentive) and $38867 ($42367-$3500 incentive) for the Expedition. Based on these numbers it appears to me that the Ford is comparatively $2750 ($3500-$750) less to own than Edmunds estimates, since it doesn't take into account incentives. $2750/60,000 miles = 4.6 cents per mile too high. Subtract that and the Expedition is about the same cost to own as the Sequoia.

    To each his own. I did not analyze the numbers that closely. The fact is we liked the Expedition. But like I also said previously, for me the actual purchase price was even greater than Edmunds estimates based on TMV, due to the fact that the Sequoias in my area only came with options I didn't want, like wood applique dash. So before incentives I was looking at a "Real World" difference of $2700 not the $2100 TMV difference. Add into this my "Real World" insurance difference of $500/year and it was an easy decision. Your mileage may vary.

    I think it still boils down to but what you like and what you can afford.
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