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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L: First Drives
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Comments
I am hoping that the salesman is wrong about the minuscule trunk space on the 600HL. If by some chance it is as large as the LS460HL with the rear seat upgrade, I would immediately jump on it. But I very much doubt that will be the case. It would be awesome if your information on the AWD is correct and that it will be available in the spring. I doubt that will be the case, however. Wouldn't that upset the folks that are now purchasing the RWD LS460L if they preferred the AWD? I know that I would be ticked. Also, wouldn't that take something away from the launch of the LS600HL which comes standard with AWD?
Finally got my first visual of the LS460 today... Well my initial feeling from a distance was "muted", but closer inspection led to a more excited feeling... but that's not why I am responding to this post...
The reason is that my dealer told me he expects the 600hL to be low production, and loaded.... get this... the price will start north of $100K, and he expects a loaded version to sticker at $115K... His words not mine...
If I were you, I'd just buy the 460L loaded at $85K and save yourself another $20-25K over the 600hL. YMMV
I did price out a LS460L sport suspension and that can be had for around $78K. That is the car I'd go for in a warner climate like yours. They didn't have one around though and I told them I want to test drive that if they take one as a demo.
The news I got was that Lexus would become more and more flexible over time. So what you see now will only grow. The dealers don't know anything about specifics, timing and nothing is a done deal yet. For example they don't know when they'll bring in AWD. They certainly will not do so until the 600HL debuts and then they are wrestling with whether it should be released just after that or whether it will be deferred until September as a 2008 car. The reason for the latter is that the LS600HL will be a 2008 car. Japan has this thing about hierarchies it seems. Just like the GS has to wait for the LS to hit before the bigger engine gets into the GS so now do the LS460 and 460L have to wait until the 600HL debuts.
I don't think you'll see the sport suspension on the LS460. The sport suspension is a fine-tuned air suspension and it appears the air suspensuion is only going on the LWB car - at least in this model year. I'd hold off, save extra and get that LS460L sport if I were you. Supposedly it handles like a dream and once you experience the L it's hard to go back to the 460. The LS460L handles very well as it is, so I can imagine the sport variant. Dream car and when I got back with it there were two othe people waiting to test drive it. I'm friendly up high at that dealership and the manager said give him till Christmas when things cool down and he'll let me have a demo for a weekend. Can't wait.
As for the early LS sales when AWD is not available - I don't think anyone will really get mad. It's not like AWD is free (likely a $2K option) and it's not like MB has a record of selling nothing but AWD S-class cars in cold climates. Most S-class buyers in cold cities still bypass AWD. Lexus probably expects the same sale ratios as MB gets or the GS300 gets anyway.
Thanks... Looks the same out here on the west coast... I finally got to talk to my dealer today (was away on a trip last weekend for the LS460 bash at my dealership, so I missed all the fun ) Here is what I got:
460 SWB = $61,000
ML + Nav + XM = $5,465
Parking Assist = $395
Door closers + $500
Accessories = $245
Destination = $715
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Total = $68,320
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A comparative LWB model prices out at $74K. The dealership has sold only one with a Touring Pkg, but they have none en route... My next issue is color combo... I want cashmere or alabaster interior, but only two cars come with these colors - obsidian and white. The truffle mica is not a color in production yet (until spring), so I can check out other combos.... Alternately, the dealer offered to special order one for me; ordering takes 90 days...
I am waiting to actually get to test drive both L and S trims before deciding... We'll see...
Disappointing.
There are 4 LS460/L to drive, 2 750i, and one S550 are available, so the line for the S is about 45 minutes.
After a scoot in the IS350 (no MT 250 was avilable), I drove the 750i, as the line was shortest here. Had a approx. 500 ft. straightaway for what was labeled "Acceleration Run". The straight was not flat, and the braking area was marked at about 300 ft., so I got to about 50-55MPH before braking, all too soon. :mad:
The BMW broke out fast, but midrange didn't impress, but it had plenty of power. The handling section was fairly difficult, and the car had no problem with it. Couldn't tell if the skid systems were activated.
Next was the Lexus LS460L. It didn't run as hard from the blocks, but the midrange was much better than the 7. It felt slower than the 7. But it's handling was not far behind. I disabled the skid control, and yes, I has it on Sport and Power modes. There was a large radius 180, a tight 180, and a 3-turn slalom.
Then I tested the S550, which had more heart than either vehicle! No replacement for displacement! It also seemed quite happy on the handling course. And it had acres of legroom. No real dynamic weaknesses, it's just not very appealing to me, inside or out.
Then I drove the LS460 SWB before driving the RX400h and SC. This car accelerated similar to the 750, but with the same midrange the other LS had, so it seemed faster. Not as fast as the S, but close.
My estimates are: IS350 5.2
S550 5.4
750i 5.7
LS460 5.6
LS460L 5.8
BTW, the IS350 drove well. No demons in the steering, and strong quiet brakes!
I had no problems with the LS' footwell, brakes, or tranny. They all seemed appropriate for the mission.
This just in........For 2007......the S550's rear end ......has replaced the 750 for ugliest in HELMdom.......Lincoln Mark III-VII sues for design infringement.....more next hour....
Surprise of the day?
The SC430! It was quite the kick in the pants! I would call it "Snappy"! No squeal from the run-flats, and I was puttin' it down!
RX400h was as quiet as a dinner napkin at the start light! Very powerful.
So in closing, I didn't really learn too much, but the SC and IS drive better than I had been led to believe. The SC is powerful, and roomy (I'm well over 6'!). The IS is not roomy, but wickedly powerful, and would make any garage a better place to spend time!
You can only learn so much from a 30 second drive, but if Lexus is a very confident company, it is very easy to see why. The Germans drive great, but their designs are not cohesive or well-thought out, inside or out.
If you are looking for nits on the LS, you've got your work cut out for you. The interior, and exterior, are in another league above the Germans on hand.
Other than the torque on the S550, the LS is equal to, or superior in every way from what I could tell. And the style is clearly more advanced.
The Germans came off as well-built, but rather complicated.
The LS was more stylish and had a finely crafted way about it. Easy to use, easy to drive, easy to like. And with the windows up, you could get a good whiff of engine note in the cabin. This is a good ting!
I will now take your questions.....
DrFill
You see why I wanted the LS to cost more. Maybe the S-Class is $5k more car than the LS, but not $15-25k. The LS is a smarter buy. Period.
And it's kinda fly!
DrFill
So true. In my Lexus, people think; "He's good, and he's smart".
In an S-Class they think; "That guy can afford $150 for an oil filter!"
Well, to each his own - BUT - the LS460 has LESS footwell space than my 528 - AND - it is noticeable to those of us who drive cars with more room. Obviously, that has not included you. If you took time to actually read the posts of others, you would not find much "criticism" of the LS, just observations that this car does not have as much room inside (SWB) as one might think from looking at the outside. Most of us still "fit", and most of us may still buy the car - but NOT because of its generous trunk and footwell room.
Driving
As far as driving goes, at high speed 75+ the steering is loose. (I drive in Califorinia)More so than my GM truck. I feel as though at high speeds, BMW definately has the car beat. The BMW just gives you more confidence at that speed.
Yes...there is something definately going on with the brakes. They are different. A few times I found myself trying to figure out what they were doing and ended up over braking when I couldn't get it right. It was almost as if there was a brake computer that was trying to figure out what I wanted instead of just doing what my foot was telling it. That too did not instill driving confidence. I guess Lexus is asking me to adapt. I would think, they would want me to say what an unbelievable braking experience. (It's possible some may say that if they have a close call)
Ergonomics
The seat pan in the LS is a little concave vs. BMW or even a new GM. Not as supportive in the pan as it could be
It's easier to reach everything in the LS and No IDrive
The LS FEELs just a little snugger than BMW. (I have always had a philosophy that the Japanese don't understand that the average American is a little bigger than the average Japanese person.)
Nice big display in the LS. Great for safety.
OK...Here's the deal breaker. (not really but...)The LS does not have 1 touch 3 second turn signals. Go figure. Even a GM Denali has that. I would have gladly taken that over a car that parks itself. Self parking is a cute feature, but is Lexus forgetting it's heritage. The world loves usefulness, but making new car owners pay for a useless marketing gimic is not good business. This is a feature a 16 year old needs for a driving test. The average purchaser of this car will not have the patience for this. Plus how much more R&D, and manufacturing expense did they put into this just for marketing buzz. They should make gimics optional and then decide if it's really worth the effort to put it into manufacturing. Most gimics have short lives. After the gimic wears off, you still have to pay for it with higher prices which means less units sold.
The LS has come a long way and this is the first year of a new model. However, if Lexus is truly seeking "The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection" hopefully these comments will help.
Conclusion
Really nice interior. Will keep the 7 for the moment.
I could not agree more. $10000 for a larger rear seat and cutting down the driver's space at the same time while increasing the base vehicle to over $60000 (up almost 8%) tells me they have forgotten their value seeking customer base in favor of glitz. Too bad.
Must admit, I like the Bimmer lots. Like the goofball controls, the little electronic shifter, parking brake button and seat controls.
Like the footwell space - I also have felt the LS is a tad short on legroom up front, but have gotten used to it. All Toyotas are that way to me.
The Navigation on the LS seems way superior to the BMW to me. The Bimmer screen was tiny, too far away, and impossible to control with the mouse.
The Bimmer cabin seems smaller to me, and more confining. I'm a big guy, and the seat seemed small. I love the looks of the cabin though - it's beautiful.
I'm ok with the steering in either one, as well as the brakes. I adapt quickly to grabby brakes.
The road feel is decidedly different, however. Not that the LS is bad at all, but the Bimmer does convey a better road feel - more of a "driver's" car than the LS, which is still very much an isolation chamber. Again, either is great, just a matter of preference.
The deciding factor to me will likely come down to the price again, reliability factors, and that damned I-drive.
The touring package is is probably the driver's LS relative to the others. It does not include the rear seat upgrades which while nice also reduce the size of the trunk (extra AC unit and small cooler box instead of trunk pass through) and even effectively reduces the rear seat area if you go with the "throne" seat which requires that the front passenger seat to be moved forward all the way to allow the throne to be extended. Thus the Touring L provides even better driving dynamics and full room in all seating and trunk areas.
Drove a 750iL, very nice ride, little sportier than the LS and I liked the look of the larger tires. The i drive, geez, a real show stopper. Why would they put that in this car? Also, I much preferred the LS interior and the 750 IMO is starting to look dated. So the 750 is out of the running. Next test, Bemz 550, stay tuned
You would have the extra AC unit in the back and the side sunshades so maybe that will be of some benefit. The Touring L comes with AC outlets in the back and the rear window sunshade. It has a very good level of luxury built in to the rear seat area and tons of room but not quite all the bells and whistles that the lux/rear upgrade packages add.
With the Touring L there is an appearance benefit (imho) and handling benefit too but for your needs you may have made the right choice.
Well, IMO, the S-500 was superior to the LS430, however, the price difference, and the reliability issues turned me off. The LS seemed to be the value of the 3 contenders. Let us know what you think of the 550. We'll be watching. :shades:
Exactly how I felt. And, since all three offer the same warranty, and BMW changes your oil too for the warranty period - that REALLY speaks to what it costs to keep one after warranty is up.
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