BMW 3-Series Oil Questions

Mr_Shiftright · December 2007

Ferrari has already done that pretty much. You can't even scan the cars using auto industry computers and even standard Bosch parts are re-engineered to Ferrari specs.

shipo · December 2007

While Ferrari might get away with a stunt like that, I seriously doubt that any mass-market vehicle maker will be able to even try it without being inundated with law-suits.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright · December 2007

Oh not all at once...we'll be nibbled to death by ducks....first the dip stick, then who knows what? I believe dealerships can already extract information that our scanners cannot retrieve.

bdkinnh · December 2007

"They came for my dipstick, and I said nothing...."

Mr_Shiftright · December 2007

And they already got your transmission dipstick and drain plug --LOL!

What's next? No, no, not my washer fluid reservoir cap. It's the LAST thing i can check!

roadburner · December 2007

And they already got your transmission dipstick and drain plug --LOL!

The diffs on my wife's 2004 X3 don't have drain plugs, but the slushbox and transfer case still do...

What's next? No, no, not my washer fluid reservoir cap. It's the LAST thing i can check!

I still have the owners manual for my 1972 Bavaria 3.0. It explains how to drain the oil and change the filter as well as how to drain, refill, and bleed the cooling system. 2008 BMW manuals only state "Please visit your local BMW Center for all your maintenance needs."

Mr_Shiftright · December 2007

"Please visit your local ATM and then your local BMW Center for all your maintenance needs"

cdnpinhead · December 2007

have a BMW as my next car, it's discussions like this that make me wonder. Laying it all out, side by each -- dipstick, real tires, an oil temp gauge (& the temp itself), an oil cooler, etc. -- certainly helps put it all in an appropriate context.

Is the BMW still really an enthusiast's car, or a vehicle (pardon) to produce the largest ROI by providing the least common denominator at the lowest cost? If it's an LCD game, I may as well go with an Acura Tsx. While it may be an appliance, it has a nice tight manual shifter, real tires, a dipstick & no history of oil abuse.

Oh well. . .

bdkinnh · December 2007

>'2008 BMW manuals only state "Please visit your local BMW Center for all your maintenance needs."'

To be fair, though: if today's manuals had all that information, how many people do you think would use it? Do the majority of people today even know what their tires should be inflated to?

I don't mind that the manuals leave out the good stuff - I can find out on my own. However, when you take away the resources I'll need to maintain my car (dipstick, oil temp indicator), then I get :mad:

fedlawman · December 2007

BMW could make the choice easy for enthusiasts. Just start building cars that drive like crap so we won't be disappointed by the lack of serviceability.

Seriously though, I'm afraid all cars are going this way. The days of the enthusiast/shadetree mechanic are dying. Cars aren't designed to be kept on the road for 10+ years - drive it for 3 years and then toss it aside for a new one.

It's a shame, really. The entry-level BMW's are terrific cars, dynamically speaking, but how does an enthusiast buy a "special" car when nobody builds one? None of these current cars has the potential to ever become a "cult classic."

What has become of the genuine sports cars - the Porsche 911, Alfa GTV, E30 M3, etc? Is it any wonder that values are climbing for these classics?

All this from a lost dipstick!

roadburner · December 2007

To be fair, though: if today's manuals had all that information, how many people do you think would use it? Do the majority of people today even know what their tires should be inflated to?

I agree, the typical American vehicle operator is a moron. Still, BMW shouldn't be accomodating those automotive imbeciles.

roadburner · December 2007

it's discussions like this that make me wonder. Laying it all out, side by each -- dipstick, real tires, an oil temp gauge (& the temp itself), an oil cooler, etc. -- certainly helps put it all in an appropriate context.

That's a large part of the reason that my latest automotive purchase was NOT a BMW.

fedlawman · December 2007

"the typical American vehicle operator is a moron. Still, BMW shouldn't be accomodating those automotive imbeciles."

Unfortunately, these same morons who know nothing about cars also know nothing about money. They see a $389/month add in the paper and next thing you know, they're pulling up to their 40-year interest-only mortgaged home in a brand new 3-series.

Sure, we'd hope that BMW Manufacturing Co. wouldn't accommodate these imbeciles, but BMW Financial Services depends on them.

roadburner · December 2007

Sure, we'd hope that BMW Manufacturing Co. wouldn't accommodate these imbeciles, but BMW Financial Services depends on them.

True enough, sadly...

circlew · December 2007

Hey, be kind now...my taxes are way higher than my interest on the mortgage!

Since I feel for the house poor people, I rate myself as amateur but I used to change my plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor and would never let anyone change my oil. Heaven forbid!!

But it's like fighting the Cuban government anymore with these new cars...the bolt-on cover over the engine is harder to remove than both heads and rocker assemblies of an old 283 small block!

Regards,
OW

rpc1208 · March 2008

It's amazing to me there were so many posts for what I thought would an obscure problem. This is my 2nd BMW (last was 325Ci and never needed oil). Right now it's got about 10K but the first time the light went on was shortly after I had the oil changed (at my expense) at 7500 miles (just 'cause). Anyway, my "service advisor" said it's not unusual for oil to be added between changes. I sure hope it really is the sensor that's mentioned so frequently in these posts.
And no DIPSTICK? The light just came on again today after not being a problem since Dec 2007. I've NEVER heard of having to add oil between changes on any of the 12 - 14 new cars I've had..

shipo · March 2008

From an engineering perspective, it's actually a good thing for an engine to consume some oil during an oil change interval. Why? Primarily for the valve guides; if the engine isn't using a little oil, the valve guides are running dry (not a recipe for a long life for the valve guides).

FWIW, unlike you I've never had a new car that didn't use at least a little bit of oil, and between my wife and I, I'm talking like 15 new cars, two of which were BMWs.

Best Regards,
Shipo

roadburner · March 2008

I've NEVER heard of having to add oil between changes on any of the 12 - 14 new cars I've had.

Like shipo, most of my new/gently used BMWs have used a little oil.
Some only consumed oil at high rpm(E24 M6)
Others only at lower rpm(E36 318ti)
And some nary a drop(E36 318tiA, E39 528iA, E83 X3 2.5)

sunilb · May 2008

Okay, I'm double-posting but I thought this might be a more appropriate forum...

My 2001 330i seems to be consuming oil at a higher than normal rate recently (previously it was a quart every 3K miles; more recently it was a quart every 1K miles)... here's the recent history:

1- brought it to my indy mechanic around 85K to do a leak-down test; nothing came back, he pulled the plugs and said everything looked clean (ie, no oil). So, I had him change the oil (I suggested that he switch from the BMW oil to Mobil1 0-40, based on threads I had read on another board);

2- around 87.1K miles the oil lamp came on so I added a quart (I was okay with this as it had been 2K miles); but

3- this morning at 88.1K miles the oil lamp came on again (I will check the level this evening and add another quart again).

Question... what should the mechanic be looking for and/or what do you think might be the problem?

Could this be a problem with the oil separator valve? (though I've heard this is more likely in colder climates)

FWIW, I drive about 1K miles per month and live near SF (moderate climate).

kominsky · May 2008

I look forward to responses to this question! My '01 330Ci (138K miles) has recently started ~losing~ oil at a pretty quick rate too. I can find no signs of leaking nor does it look like it's burning the oil, at least not in any noticeable quantity.

What is an oil separator valve? I can't find any mention of it in Bentley.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

It's a fancy PCV valve. You are correct, the tecnical service bulletin does refer to these cracking in freezing weather.

You have to be burning the oil or leaking it. There is no other explanation under the laws of the universe (as we now know them) :P

Cylinder leakdown might not show worn valve guides or bad valve stem seals.

One quart every 1K is just about minimum tolerable level.

sunilb · May 2008

Thanks for the lead(s)... if it turns out to be worn valve guides or bad seals, any rough idea on how expensive this may be to fix?

Can this be discovered through another test or just visual inspection with a trained eye?

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

Sometimes you can do a road test with another car following to observe. What you do is warm the car up, and then put it down a long, long hill (after revving it up going up the hill)....you take your foot off the gas for a while and let the engine drag the car down, and then you PUNCH the gas briefly, and if you have worn guides/seals, the car behind you will observe a puff of blue smoke out your tailpipe.

What you have done is create a situation of high engine vacuum (coasting downhill in gear) and then relieve it by hitting the gas.

Valve stem seals might not be too expensive (not sure on procedure on your engine) but badly worn valve guides require removal and re-machining of the cylinder head.

kominsky · May 2008

"You have to be burning the oil or leaking it. There is no other explanation under the laws of the universe (as we now know them) "

As soon as I put the finishing touches on my 100% efficient machine, I'll tackle this one.

Thanks!

sunilb · May 2008

Well, the mechanic says that he cannot find leaks anywhere, though he said to check the valve guides would require taking apart the engine and would be quite expensive (he checked for smoke out the tailpipes and didn't see anything).

He's suggested changing the oil separator valve ($120 part + $150 in labor) as that might be the culprit, and monitoring it (ie, the oil level). He said that there's little way to know if this is the real problem until he pulls the old one out.

Thoughts??

Again, this mechanic has always been straight-up with me so I have little reason to suspect that he's trying to empty my wallet.

That being said, this is getting to be a more expensive situation than I would like (especially if this doesn't solve the issue). I was (am?) hoping to keep this car to 150K... but I don't know how feasible of an idea this is.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

The oil separator explanation still makes no sense. It still has to be leaking or burning. If the oil separator were clogged, that would cause excessive internal crankcase pressure, and then oil would be forced out of the gasket or out the tailpipe. So you'd still have a leak or visible oil burning.

Perhaps it could be the oil separator and perhaps you can't see the blue smoke while you drive?

I think the car needs to go to a shop that knows how to diagnose worn valve stem seals and guides or can insert dye into the oil and then shine a black light on the engine to spot the point of exit.

I get the sense nobody's really trying here, just guessing. That oil separator installation isn't that cheap. What if he is $300 wrong?

We also have this method:

Vacuum gauge testing

js330xi · May 2008

I have had a similar issue. I would change the oil every 7000 miles and never had the light come on until around 48000 miles, then it would come on after 2K miles. Now the car has 100K on it and the light comes on between 800 miles and 1500 miles needing a quart each time.

I was told by dealer BMW spec was 1qt per 1000 miles while the car was under warranty. I was told today that BMW spec is 1qt per 700 miles (funny how this has changed now!). I have been documenting this for the last 50K but it has not really gotten me anywhere. There is no consistency about how many miles to the quart I get.

BMWNA paid to have a leak down test and pressure test done at 98 or 99K (just recently) - everything was in spec and no problems found. Prior to that they replaced the the oil sensor, the cyclone valve, the oil filter housing, and the head gasket (I paid for head gasket, but it was a super tiny leak and didn't change the oil consumption)

In the end it still uses 1qt every 700 miles to 1500 miles. It drives great so it isn't a problem - but a concern - at this point I give up until something drastic happens to the engine.

pdude1 · May 2008

Anyone know an easy way to check the oil w/o a dipstick? Just wondering in case the computer goes out some day or just for sanity check to know that the computer is actually working!

bdkinnh · May 2008

There's no way to check the oil except via the computer.

Other than having the engine seize up, that is.

pdude1 · May 2008

Oh great...that's how I lost my lost engine. Cam's seized and that screwed up the top end. Didn't feel like fixing it. Well I'll have to hope that computer keeps on working!

Thanks for the feedback.

shipo · May 2008

..there is another way.

The dealerships drain the oil, measure the results, figure an extra liter (or there abouts) of oil is in the oil filter, and you have your results.

Best Regards,
Shipo

pdude1 · May 2008

But if I drain it, then I can only tell if I was short. Trying to fgure a way to tell if I'm short w/o relying on the computer. bummer..

cdnpinhead · May 2008

"But if I drain it, then I can only tell if I was short. Trying to fgure a way to tell if I'm short w/o relying on the computer. bummer. . ."

Yessir, you are exactly correct. It's bad enough to have no dipstick, but when the substitute proves to be unreliable and very expensive to repair. . .

That, plus the run-flat tires, explain why the car I lusted for over the past four years isn't in my garage at the moment.

Now, to add to the joy, the prices are up and the residuals are down.

Gotta love them BMWs.

sunilb · May 2008

Thanks for the response(s)... given that I had left my car with the mechanic for two days (very inconvenient for me professionally). I went ahead and had him replace the oil separator (no offense, Shipo). Not sure if it will help, but I'll keep monitoring it.

js330xi-- thanks for the info... on one level, this is good to know; and on another level, this is bothersome that it's just something to "live with". But, sounds like your car is still driving and operating fine, despite the consumption.

Seriously... this means that by the time you get to the regular oil change (7500 interval), then you are in fact draining out relatively new oil (ie, the oil put in at the previous oil change is already gone and replaced by these 7 "top-ups"). Bummer.

shipo · May 2008

"Thanks for the response(s)... given that I had left my car with the mechanic for two days (very inconvenient for me professionally). I went ahead and had him replace the oil separator (no offense, Shipo)."

Uhhh, what was I supposed to possibly take offense at? :confuse: Personally I think the oil separator and/or anything else to do with the PCV system is a very good place to start when there is unexplained oil consumption, regardless of what type of engine or who built it.

Best Regards,
Shipo

sunilb · May 2008

Uhhh, what was I supposed to possibly take offense at?

Sorry... I meant to apologize to Mr Shiftright, who asked "what if he's $300 wrong?".

Mr_Shiftright · May 2008

Oh a mere rhetorical question, that's all I was posing....I was wondering what he'd say if it didn't work. But I hope it does for your sake

idoc2 · May 2008

I'm unclear on how a "liter (or there abouts) of oil" can be left in the filter. I have 2007 328xi. I am having the dealer change the oil for "free" during initial maintenance program at the 15K+ (aprox) intervals as called for by the car's computer. I change the oil myself at the intervening 7500K interval. First the oil is drained from under the car via the bolt opening in the pan. Then the filter housing cap is removed. At this point there is perhaps 30ML of oil remaining in the housing. As I assume you know BMW oil filters for this engine are not constructed in a self contained cartridge as is typical of most other manufactures. They are simple filters and when removed are only moist with oil holding I would guess no more than 20ML of oil. I look forward to your reply.

shipo · May 2008

Hmmm, that's odd, when I screwed off the caps of the filter canisters on my BMWs, I always found them to be basically full. After pulling the filter element out (which holds a fair amount of oil in-and-of-itself) I always had to extract considerably over a half of a liter of used oil before the canister was completely empty. That yours was basically empty has me at a loss. :confuse:

Best Regards,
Shipo

arbie2211 · December 2008

According to BMWUSA the following oils are approved:

Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30

Here's the link:
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

dmaccioc · February 2009

Hey-

I had the first oil change on my '07 328i done at about 13.5k. Just paid to have the second oil change done at 19.7k and had that oil sample sent in to Blackstone for analysis. Here's what they said:

"Don, your BMW is still relatively new, so we are probably seeing some lingering wear-in, in these elevated metals. Universal averages show normal wear levels from this engine type after 61,000 miles on the oil. 7,300 miles will be a fine oil change for you, especially once you get the extra metal out of the system. We'll let you know what things look like next time around, but hopefully everything is going to improve. The TBN is still good at 3.4, and no moisture, fuel, or antifreeze was present. The viscocity was just a little thicker than expected. Try 7,000 to 7,500 miles again."

Basically across the board, there were higher metal levels in my car than the universal averages. Looks like I'll be paying for the off-cycle oil changes since I intend to keep the car to at least 100k miles and quite frankly, oil changes are a small thing to pay for on this otherwise problem-free car.

Just wanted to share with everyone, let me know if you have specific questions on the report.

Thanks-
Don

cdnpinhead · February 2009

Interesting.

Thanks.

nyccarguy · February 2009

that is great information. did you have you oil change done at the dealership? how much did it run you?

roadburner · February 2009

You need more than one UOA in order to be able to establish a trend. In the case of my Mazdaspeed 3 the wear metals didn't really settle down until it hit 30,000 miles. My wife's X3 had high Pb numbers and required @72,000 miles to get close to the universal averages:

Firebird_EOU · March 2009

I do 80 miles each day about 55 of it is highway. Computer estimates 18k miles per change and that's what I've done the first 2 free oil changes.

My 2006 330xi has 65k miles now. I last changed at around 10k interval out of pocket. I don't rev or drive the car hard.

tngolfnut · May 2009

Hi, just bought this car with 76,000 miles.
Can I use Castrol 5w-30 synthetic blend?
Do I have to use BMW filters?
Can I use Wagner brake pads and rotors?
What tools should I buy?
I am a mechanic, but never worked on BMW's.
What should I be worried about?
What recommendations do you have?
Thanks for any information and recommendations for this vehicle.

js330xi · May 2009

I would stick with the factory parts to the degree you can - if you are BMWCCA member you can often get discounts, or shop from dealers with a large online parts presence for lower prices - most of the factory parts come with unlimited mileage 2 year warranties on the part and most of it is plug and play - as in the parts get replaced not repaired...

If you want to keep the car performing "as new" I wouldn't go substituting after market parts... if the performance can be good enough, or for transportation and doesn't matter to you then give it a try - you can always go back to oem parts..

The tools on the car are pretty simple - there are not a wide variety of fastener types... there is a special snap on trim tool for removing plastic rivets, there are a couple metric hex heads and bolts, but the main issue with tools is access - long tools to reach deep tight locations...

My car has dissappearing oil (passed leak down tests etc) of about 1qt per 1000 mi, yet drives like new, and is very fun at 8 years and 110,000 miles. I have stuck with oem parts and find the repairs costs to be reasonable, more reasonable than your average US made car...

I am not a mechanic, but I find these cars easy to take apart and put back to gether with my limited tools... but I have not gotten as daring as some...

shipo · May 2009

You must use a BMW LongLife-01 (aka. LL-01) certified oil, and Castrol 5W-30 is not such an oil. The three most commonly available oils for late model BMWs are as follows:

BMW 5W-30
Castrol Syntec 0W-30
Mobil 1 0W-40 (which is what I use)

Best regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright · May 2009

German car, German parts.

idoc2 · May 2012

Shipo, does this change your opinion about the frequency of oil changes? www.eliteautocareinc.com/pages/bmw-repair-services.html

BMW 3-Series Oil Questions

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