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Honda Insight Hybrid Battery Pack Questions

2

Comments

  • mayornatmayornat Member Posts: 2
    Ron- spoke to you once and can't figure out how to get back to you. Replaced my Honda Hybrid Battery pack with one from a car that had been totalled. It was easy and I now have the old 2003 honda hybrid civic battery. What should I do with it? Do you want it to rebuild? Free to a good home.
  • rookie60rookie60 Member Posts: 39
    What are "CARB states" and "non-CARB states"???
    Which are which??
    Is Minnesota a "CARB state"??
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    The CarSpace forums cannot be used to buy or sell items or conduct business. If you wish to allow other members to contact you directly, click on the Forum Preferences link and set your email address to "public". That way registered forums users, and only registered forums users, can click on your user name and find your email address to contact you directly.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    CARB states:

    CA (naturally)
    NY NJ CT RI MA ME VT

    Sorry, not Minnesota.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > Ron- spoke to you once and can't figure out how to get back to you. Replaced my
    > Honda Hybrid Battery pack with one from a car that had been totalled. It was easy
    > and I now have the old 2003 honda hybrid civic battery. What should I do with it? Do
    > you want it to rebuild? Free to a good home.

    Yes, I'd like it. I'm trying to find out how to contact you. Apparently the "Make my email address visible" option does not work and I'm not allowed to post a phone number, much less an email address here.

    You can probably find me on Google by putting in my id "ogregev" (leave out the underscore) and skip over the wargame related entries. I'm on the first page.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > Ron- spoke to you once and can't figure out how to get back to you. Replaced
    > my Honda Hybrid Battery pack with one from a car that had been totalled. It was
    > easy and I now have the old 2003 honda hybrid civic battery. What should I do
    > with it? Do you want it to rebuild? Free to a good home.

    Hurray! I got it working! Click on my ID to get my email address. Please contact me. I'd like the battery. I'll send you a shipping crate and pay the shipping charges.
  • mayornatmayornat Member Posts: 2
    I tried that. No email when I Click on your ID. so how do we get in contact?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    To see the email address you need to click on the user name to open the profile window. If you just mouseover the user name a balloon pops up with some info that does not include the email. But Ogre's email is set to public and will display for you as long as you're logged in when you try to view it.
  • insightfuljiminsightfuljim Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2000 Insight with 54,000 miles. Drove 2500 miles on a trip this month from South Carolina to Miami, Florida. 400 miles into the trip the battery and brake lights came on. Another 100 miles and the IMA and 'check engine' lights came on, and the 'Assist' & 'Charging' lights went black. My simple solution was to stop and buy another cranking battery. Once ALL the electricty was used up, the dash lights were fading in and out and the cranking battery would power the spark plugs to propel the engine no more than 40 mph, I replaced the cranking battery and everything functioned normally again with no trouble lights on. My solution is to keep a spare CHARGED cranking battery in the back and drive the fool out of the car. Love my Insight!
  • joacchimjoacchim Member Posts: 7
    So you're saying that when the cranking battery dies, even if you have a good IMA system, everything is going to go squirrelly?
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Let me explain what I think really happened. Your car threw a P1449 battery overheat error due to a bad cell that was stressed during your drive. The car shut down the IMA system to prevent a potential fire which also shut down the alternator-like charging of the front 12V battery. You continued to drive the next 100 miles on the 12V battery alone until it finally dropped below the minimum voltage to power the systems and the dashboard started to flake out. When you replaced the 12V battery, you removed power from the system which reset all stored codes. Your car hasn't had a repeat of the cell overheating, so the IMA has been charging the front battery properly.

    If it happens again, you should unplug the front battery for a minute or so when the battery indicator first lights up (or pull the 4th fuse from the left on the bottom row of the fuseblock by your left shin). This will reset the system and allow you to proceed again. Then you should go about getting your battery repaired. Your warranty is just about up if it isn't already.

    Contact me privately if you want more information.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    >So you're saying that when the cranking battery dies, even if you have a good IMA
    >system, everything is going to go squirrelly?

    No. The IMA system charges the front battery and if the 12V goes bad, it will run the car until you turn the car off. My Insight came to me with a pair of 6V motorcycle batteries that were being used to start it. The 12V battery really only has to turn on the HV relays and allow the hybrid battery to take over. That's why so many Insight owners have bad 12V batteries - they are 8 or even 10 years old. Since they don't get called upon to do much, you don't know they're shot until you suddenly need the starter (and lots of Insight and Civic owners have bad starters and don't know it because they've never used them).
  • bmb97206bmb97206 Member Posts: 4
    IMA and engine light came on simultaneously. Display to the "charging/not charging" out. Dealer said I need to replace IMA and controllers--$6000.00 bill but they are going to "see what they can do" because I had IMA system and controller replaced 3 years ago and appx 9K miles ago while still under warranty. (I have 2000 Insight with 63K miles). I drove the car back from dealer while waiting for the followup call from them next week fully expecting horrible mileage but it is almost exactly same as lifetime avg mpg. This can't be IMA system out? What could be going on?
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Where are you? I've only heard numbers like that from LA area dealers. The rest of the country gets $4700. Of course you can fix it instead...
  • bmb97206bmb97206 Member Posts: 4
    I'm in Portland Oregon. The dealer had forgotten they already replaced it and is going to "see what they can do." I'm wondering why the car seems to drive normally and get good mileage. I didn't get a chance to talk to the tech yet so I'm trying to figure out what to ask.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Ask him what the codes are. P1447 and P1449 are a bad pack. P1600 and P1601 don't mean anything. Have you visited Insightcentral? It is a large Insight community and there are plenty of people there that can help. DON'T pay $6000 for the repair or even $5000 (or even $2000) before researching your options.

    Most errors that light the IMA allow you to drive the car for a while without a problem.

    If your battery "idiot light" is on, then you must repair it ASAP. There is a way to bypass the battery and use the car indefinitely, but it will not pass inspection.

    Contact me privately for more information.
  • mrsllrbymrsllrby Member Posts: 1
    What would be your charge and warranty for a new IMA battery unit for a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid? Like you, I do not feel easy about spending $1500 for a "refurbished" IMA battery unit. The older batteries will fail sooner than later, and I'll be in the same predicament I am in now.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    imahelp has not logged into this system since March of last year. He claimed to be making new cells, but none have ever surfaced, so I'd say that he was unable to surmount the engineering problems inherent in making battery modules that can support 100 amp discharge rates.

    At this time, your only options are a new battery from a dealer, a reconditioned battery or repair your old battery. A fourth option is a junkyard pack, but you must recondition it prior to use, or it WILL die in 7-11 months.
  • bcoubcou Member Posts: 4
    edited August 2006
    Why will the junkyard pack die in 7-11 months?
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > Why will the junkyard pack die in 7-11 months?

    The 120 cells in the battery self-discharge normally. When the pack is new, they discharge at the same rate. Once the battery has been used for any length of time, the discharge rates change (as it wears). When you leave the battery to sit, the faster discharging ones will deplete completely, and the less fast ones will not. Once you put it in your car, you charge it up to 80% (average over the pack). This means that some cells are full and some are at 60% or so. When you start to discharge the pack (assist), the lower charge cells take the brunt of the load and they wear faster.

    I have seen more than 20 cases of people putting junkyard packs in or parking their car for an extended period (for example when a crashed car is rebuilt). In EVERY case, the battery has failed 9 months later plus or minus 2 months.

    The solution is to recondition the pack before putting it in. This resets the charge levels on all the cells and the damage never happens.
  • bcoubcou Member Posts: 4
    how much time can elapse before you need a rebalance
    where can I get a rebalance in Tx. and how much$?
    what repair manuals will I need? ect. ect.
  • bmb97206bmb97206 Member Posts: 4
    I have 2000 manual transmission Insight purchased Dec 2000. Was recently advised I needed new battery pack and 2 controllers. Was told warranty is 8/80K but after researching on this forum and Insight forum questioned dealer and now they say there was a 2008 extension bulletin extension on manual xmissions to 10/150K. I'm told that the bulletin is "monitor and motor control module" Honda Service Bulletin 06-057 dated Feb 5, 2008 that explains all this. Haven't verified all this yet.
  • bcoubcou Member Posts: 4
    Mine is 2000 mt with 200,000mi. ima came on at 199,980. Dealer said new battery needed. (code #1449 I think) Battery cost $1895 plus install ect. about $2400 total.
    I have read you can reset the ima if you disconnect the 12v battery then reconnect.
    Did that, ima and battery started working normal. for now? driven about 50 mi. so far so good.
    Wondering how far it will go and will it continue to run if the ima shuts down again?
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > how much time can elapse before you need a rebalance

    The minimum is not known. I can only speak for 90-180 day periods. The batteries become more sensitive as they age, so an older battery will be less tolerant. For example, a brand new battery could sit forever, where a two year old could not handle 90 days. An 6 year old battery might not tolerate 30 days, but it really depends on the condition of the battery - there is no "typical" at those ages. The only thing I can say for sure is that more than 20 people that I have polled had a failure close to 9 months after a 90 day period of non-use.

    > where can I get a rebalance in Tx. and how much$?

    You can do it yourself. Otherwise, I think I'm the only one in the US doing them. Contact me privately for details on how to do yourself it or for my pricing. Reconditioning requires dismantling of the battery and you have to be comfortable dealing with high voltage, but if you are careful, it is relatively safe. There is a pictorial of the disassembly of a battery on my website on the DIY page.

    > what repair manuals will I need? ect. ect.

    Contact me for a link with instructions on how to remove your battery. No manuals needed.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > I have 2000 manual transmission Insight purchased Dec 2000. Was recently
    > advised I needed new battery pack and 2 controllers. Was told warranty is 8/80K
    > but after researching on this forum and Insight forum questioned dealer and now
    > they say there was a 2008 extension bulletin extension on manual xmissions to
    > 10/150K. I'm told that the bulletin is "monitor and motor control module" Honda
    > Service Bulletin 06-057 dated Feb 5, 2008 that explains all this. Haven't verified all
    > this yet.

    Yes this is true, but it covers ALL Insights, both MT and CVT in ALL states. You have 10 years/ 150,000 miles from the in-service date. 2002-2006 Insights are covered to 157,500 miles.

    The battery and the BCM/MCM are covered. You don't NEED a new BCM/MCM, but Honda is requiring it.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > Battery cost $1895 plus install ect. about $2400 total.

    Can you tell us what part of the country you are in? The prices vary. Also, please let us know if you actually get it for this price because I suspect you will be hit with the following additional charges:

    BCM and MCM $1700
    Shipping: $600

    > I have read you can reset the ima if you disconnect the 12v battery then
    > reconnect. Did that, ima and battery started working normal. for now? driven
    > about 50 mi. so far so good. Wondering how far it will go and will it continue to
    > run if the ima shuts down again?

    You caused the car to forget that the battery had overheated. You have until it overheats again. If you can't afford to fix the battery right now, you should be aware that you can bypass it for free and drive the car on gas only. This does not cause any problems with the car other than failing state inspections, so it is temporary solution.
  • bcoubcou Member Posts: 4
    West Texas, Odessa
    1895 for the Bat only
    There were some more charges to follow?
    Still looking for alternatives.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    > West Texas, Odessa
    > 1895 for the Bat only
    > There were some more charges to follow?
    > Still looking for alternatives.

    That's a pretty good price for a new battery. If you can get it for that price, do it. You won't do better.

    If by some miracle they let you keep the old battery, I'll buy it from you.
  • ronwitmanronwitman Member Posts: 9
    Purchased a 2002 Insight about March 2010. Pickes it up in Tucson, Ari. drove it to Pahrump, Nv. (between 500 and 600 miles]. Did not need to refuel. refuel cost me about $23.00.Have really enjoyed the Insight, its style, comfort ( I'm 6'4") Attention getter.
    IMA came on a few days ago. Called Honda ( I wanted a mechanic in Pahrump to do the job but I was advised that (due to the need for verification of the codes) that I should take it to Las Vegas.When contacting the first dealer in Vegas i was told that I would have to lease a car at my expense. The second dealer advised that the would give me a car to drive while they performed necessary repairs.
    I guess that reading the various items on the message board added to my knowledge and assisted me in getting the proper information.
  • kimw007kimw007 Member Posts: 1
    I've got a 2000 Insight. The battery was replaced in 2006 by the dealer after I received a recall notice. It had 86,000 miles at the time. My IMA light just came on (at 152,000 miles) and the dealer says that it needs another new battery but it isn't covered under warranty. He also says that the battery they put in 4 years ago was "reconditioned" not new, and that all batteries come that way. They want to charge me $3600 to replace the battery. Do I have any recourse? Please help!
  • bmb97206bmb97206 Member Posts: 4
    I also have 2000 Insight and had almost exactly same scenario. My light came on earlier this year but I had less than 150K miles so it was covered under the 2008 warranty extension for manual xmissions to 10/150K (bulletin is "monitor and motor control module" Honda Service Bulletin 06-057 dated Feb 5, 2008). I was also told that the "new" battery is reconditioned and any battery failures, even during the warranty period would not be covered.
  • ronwitmanronwitman Member Posts: 9
    Had the battery replaced. Contrary to the info you received my battery has a new 150,000 mile warranty.The new battery is not working properly so back to Honda West.
  • ronwitmanronwitman Member Posts: 9
    I'd find a new dealer. Call Honda. They will remedy the situation. I call them to see if I could get a mechanic outside the agency but they wouldn't allow. They stated the any new installation would have a 150,000 mile warranty.When I called Honda West they agreed with the installation and did so free of charge. Be tough.
  • hank43hank43 Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2001 Honda Insight and the IMA light on the dash has been coming on!

    How do you recondition or rebalance the 144 volt batteries?
  • joacchimjoacchim Member Posts: 7
    Honda warranties these batteries for 10 years/150,000 miles. If you're within these limits, I'd check with your local dealer.
  • ronwitmanronwitman Member Posts: 9
    See your dealer. Warranty should cover . If not call Honda International. My 2002 had CMA light come on 90,000 miles. I called Honda. I was directed to the nearest dealer and a new battery was installed, no charge. Got free rental car while in shop.
  • gecko3gecko3 Member Posts: 2
    I have a 2000 insight and last week the IMA light came on. Took it to the dealer, and they said it was a P1447 code - battery module definitely needed to be replaced ($3474) and once they took that out they would see if I would needed anything else replaced (possibly another $3575). I have driven about 150 miles since then, and everything seems to be working perfectly: my mileage is the same, autostop is working, the battery is charging as usual, assist is kicking in as usual....

    So does this mean everything is actually o.k.? Was the test wrong, or is my battery starting to deteriorate but not enough to effect performance?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Your battery has already deteriorated and has gone below the threshold required to light the light. You aren't seeing a change in economy because you are already suffering from it and probably have been for a year or more.

    Your concerns are:

    1. you cannot pass emtissons in most states. If you are in a state that does not require emissions, you can put the IMA system into limp-in mode and drive it as a non-hybrid.

    2. The P1447 indicates that the battery is wildly out of balance and some cells are extremely weak. Over time, these cells will bear the brunt of the assist work and will be made weaker. Eventually they will start to fail and will cause the car to shut down the IMA system to prevent overheating (read:fire) and will shut down the DC-DC converter (aka the alternator). Then you will be stranded.

    If you purchase a pack from the dealer, they can no longer require you to replace the BCM and MCM (at a price of $1800) which should limit the cost to about $3000.

    Of course, you could have it repaired instead. You should look on Insightcentral for information about this error and what you should expect.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Any battery replaced under warranty does not have it's own warranty. It is covered under the car's 150,000 mile warranty. It doesn't matter how many times it is replaced. As long as the car is within the 10/150,000, you are covered.

    If you PURCHASE a replacement battery, it comes with it's own 3/36,000 warranty that is independent of the age or mileage of the car.
  • ronwitmanronwitman Member Posts: 9
    I have a 2002 Insight. CMA light came on, drove it awhile, during this time I got the same mileage as before the light came on. After a short time the car stopped, had it towed to Honda West, Las Vegas. It was confirmed that your code along with another was on and that the battery assembly and a control unit needed replacing.
    Honda replaced the battery assembly and control unit at no cost to me. I believe the bill was in excess of $8,000.00 (paid by Honda)

    With the new battery assembly in my initial mileage was 37 MPG, scary, that is the same mileage I obtained when using only gas, Then, for some reason, the mileage started to increase, now I'm up to 48.8 and feeling better.

    When this situation came about I called Honda regarding the codes, the warranty and replacement. They responded that I should find a dealer of my choice. When doing this I looked for a dealer that would offer a free rental. That ended up being Honda West.

    This experience has resulted in the best treatment I've had with a dealer and Company (Honda).
  • gecko3gecko3 Member Posts: 2
    edited October 2010
    Thanks! My mileage did seem to drop about 2 years ago, so what you're saying makes sense. So will I have any warning before the eventual stranding? Will my mileage go down drastically or the battery stop recharging -- or could I get in the car tomorrow and it wouldn't start?
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  • ronwitmanronwitman Member Posts: 9
    On my 2002 Insight since the battery replacement the mileage has decreased to 42 mpg. What I'm afraid what has happened is that when the dealer replaced the battery a new battery pack was installed ( the newer technology) resulting in the lower mileage recorded on more recent models. I was unaware that this was being done, in fact somewhere in the message board a comment was made alerting users to be aware not to let this happen. please comment on this.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    >With the new battery assembly in my initial mileage was 37 MPG, scary, that is the same mileage I obtained when using only gas,

    That's normal. The IMA system doesn't increase gas mileage, it make the efficient but anemic engine feel like a normal engine while still retaining it's gas sipping qualities.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    If the battery light comes on (the "alternator" light), get under the hood and unplug the 12V battery for 30 seconds and then reconnect it and go straight home. This will reset the system and you should have enough time to get home before the error comes back.

    This will only work once or twice so don't think you can continue to drive the car.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    The latest software (A01/070) is attempting to lengthen the life of the battery. It does this by being more liberal with assist when the battery is more than half full and much more aggressive with regen (killing your mileage) when less than half full. In addition, it will periodically perform a balancing charge by deciding to fill the battery completely, even when trying to climb a hill.

    Once the car is out of warranty, you can simply replace the BCM and MCM with an older set and restore the original behavior.
  • ronwitmanronwitman Member Posts: 9
    What do you mean OUT OF WARRANTY? With this new battery I get an additional 150,000 miles. Don't think I'll be around that long.
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Your new battery has no warranty at all. Your CAR has a 150,000 mile warranty. The battery will be replaced as often as necessary until the CAR's warranty is up.

    If you had purchased the battery, it would come with it's own 3 year 36,000 mile warranty.
  • gmacalegmacale Member Posts: 2
    What is limp-in mode?
  • Ogre_GEVOgre_GEV Member Posts: 263
    Limp-in mode is a term used in the automotive industry to describe a mode where a computer will, knowing that it has severe problems, ignore its' sensors and use a predefined set of default settings to allow the car to "limp-in" to a repair facility. In this case, it will ignore the fact that the entire BCM (the battery charge controlling computer) is MISSING and will activate the DC-DC converter to keep the car running.
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