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2007 Toyota Camry Transmission Questions

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Comments

  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    Yes, I have been driving and owning cars for 40 years now. And I am a car nut; get all of the car magazines, and read all from cover to cover. What I mean by not so perfect is that the best transmissions, in the best cars, shift seemlessly under almost all circumstances. The shifts are undetectable. This is the situation with my Camry now MOST of the time. Every once in awhile I can detect an up/down shift that seems a little jerkey to me, but not unusual in my mind. And not different from the previous version of the software. I drove quite a bit this last weekend, and did some straight line, pedal to the metal acceleration, and all 5 shifts were smooth and quick. I have to keep in mind that this is a $25K Toyota Camry, not a Lexus, BMW, etc.
  • princebuster1princebuster1 Member Posts: 1
    I hope I do not bore everyone with my long drawn out story. Hi my name is Jessica and I too am a 2007 4 cyl XLE Camry owner for the past 6 months. I have been following this forum for about 2 months and the first time I read it I thought, I'm not crazy. I am not the type to post on a forum and in fact this is my first time. I just felt compelled.

    In response to some comments.... most people do NOT take time out of there busy lives to complain about there vehicle for no reason. If they are like me hate to admit when they have made a bad choice.

    Just to give you a background where I am coming from. I work 2 jobs & am on a tight budget & need a reliable, quality, dependable vehicle. Hence my decision to purchase a new car, but not just any new car, the "CAR OF THE YEAR". So when I see someone implying that because the car cost $25K (which is a lot of money where I am from) it is ok that the transmission doesn't work like it should, it makes me feel disappointed and very frustrated. How can purchasing a new vehicle go so wrong.

    I can live with the cheap ratting interior. The smelly air conditioner. The chipping paint (all from a car that has yet to see a complete winter or a complete year of ownership). But a transmission that does not shift correctly. That is where I draw the line. And I REFUSE to make or accept excuses from toyota or anyone about why it is ok that is drives like crap. Because none of this is what envisioned/expected when I purchased this vehicle. Infact this is exactly what I thought I was avoiding. So with that said I am completely unhappy with the cars poor performance, thus far.

    Looking back my car has not shifted correctly since I first took ownership of it.

    First, at around 30-38 mph the transmission would flare up, causing the rpms to jump up to around 4k really quick & then drop back down (I had not yet exp. the 1-2 second hesitiation). I brought it in & they performed a TSB that flashed something. They gave me the line that the car would take awhile to learn my driving patterns.
    The TSB took care of that flaring problem, but then it started to hesitate. I push on the gas to accelerate from a stopped pos. & the car just idles forward for about 3 sec before acknowledging that I had pushed on the gas. Eventually it will bump up. This does not happen all the time (which is what scares me the most, because I cannot predict it).
    The car would also downshift for no reason when I was coasting at high speeds. Causing it to engine break. I brought it to the dealership last week & they performed another TSB that replaced the solenoid.
    When I drove the car home, I was so excited because it seemed to be fixed. That lasted for a couple of days. Now the car is so jerky. To describe the jerkiness...its like being in the car with a new driver that uses one foot to press on the gas & uses the other foot to press on the brake. I am not an agressive driver & like to gradually pick up speed, not possible with this car.
    Now after the "fix", its like you either go hard or you don't go at all. There is no in between. It feels like it is always shifting and never to the correct gear.
    I have also noticed that it is shifting rough/hard between gears. At times the rough shifting seems to escalate to a kick. It feels like its hitting something. It seems to happen most often when I am making a stop from a higher speed.
    Its going back to the dealership. I think my biggest fear/concern is what impact will all these software issues and excessive/unnecessary shifting have on the transmission and engine mechanically when the vehicle is out of warranty. I think they will eventually figure out how to correct these issues, but will it be to late?

    Toyota Corp. has made it quite clear that they are not going to be proactive & let the owner know that there are known issues with these earlier 2007 cars. To be honest I did not bring my vehicle in sooner because I thought I was imagining everything. The issues occur sporadically without warning & I have yet to figure out what specific conditions causes them to occur or how recreate them. Also, when I purchased a new Toyota ...I never expected transmission problems. It wasn't until I visited this forum & saw people were reading my mind that I brought it in.

    I feel dooped. I am paying for a camry but feels like I'm driving a KIA.....(kia probably drives better). Now I am driving a car that I am completely disappointed in & reminded everyday why. Yes, I could sell it & buy a different one, but I'd have to pay taxes again on $25K....what a waste! :(

    I know the dealership is going to hate me and dam the day they sold me this car because I will keep returning the car until it is working like it should.

    I would like to thank everyone for there posts & copies of the TSB's...it has really been a huge help. I'm going to try some suggestions for when I return to the dealership (not like they don't already know).
  • 100carlos100100carlos100 Member Posts: 13
    [...]What do you mean by "jerky and stuff" Carlos in your original post?[...]
    princebuster1 couldn't describe it better. It's exactly what I'm experiencing with my car - 2007 LE I4 build in april 2006.
  • teamtboteamtbo Member Posts: 78
    I haven't had the software TSB performed (TC007-07) on my v6 XLE but I did have the tranny replaced about 2000 miles ago. All was fine until last Sunday, we experienced the shift flare again. I am so frustrated. I am considering trading it in now for something else (like a 4Runner) once I read on a different website that a guy is experiencing the shift flare on his brand new Camry v6 that was built in July of 07!! (which is after TC007-07 was released)

    I can't believe I am even thinking about trading in my brand new Toyota but I just lost faith that Toyota knows how to rectify this issue. Yes, granted, the flare is not as bad as it was before the tranny was replaced, but the overall quality of the car is not up to Toyota standards. I looked on TundraSolutions.com and the Camry has 99 TSBs compared to most other 2007 Toyota's which only have 40-60 (by the way, not all TSBs are issues/problems).
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    Hi Princebuster1....I too think 25K is a lot of money; I didn't mean to trivialize the expense. I bought my Camry for the following reasons (coming off a 2001 Avalon):
    1. Car Of The Year
    2. Reliability
    3. Quality for the money
    4. Fuel economy; I simply do not need a car as large as the new Avalon

    My most important consideration for a car is this--when I put the key in the ignition, the car starts, and I won't be stranded (I had a new Volvo that I paid far more money for that left me stranded all too often).

    With that said, I think Toyota does have problems maintaining quality, and a real problem here that they need to step up to. More cars, from all manufacturers, including Toyota, are going Drive By Wire (DBW). The software needs to be rock solid. A recent survey shows that Buick and Ford owners are happier with their cars (initially) than Toyota and Honda. Lexus, though, is at the top of the list.

    As per your other complaints about the interior, chipping paint, etc. I have no hint of any of that in my car. The $25K commment really targeted more than "less-than-perfect" shifts. In today's market, for $25K, you don't get (at least on a Toyota)
    -- real wood trim
    -- folding side mirrors
    -- very comfortable, well designed, leather, memory seats
    -- quiet glass (as in the Avalon)
    -- brakes that stop the car from 60 in less than 130 feet
    -- perfect, on center, steering

    You have to spend at least $10K more for these options. And even when you do spend the money, you don't necessarily get the reliability. Take a look sometime at what BMW 3 series owners have suffered over the years.

    I have friends who own Hyundai, Kia, etc. and they are generally happy with their cars. They spent less money than on a comparable Toyota. However, they tell me that their level of happiness is related to what they spent, not necessarily that they are thrilled with the cars. For example, longevity of parts, reliability, quality, safety and overall performance do not meet Toyota or Honda standards. Some can't afford to pay more for a car, and others think cars are a waste of money, and would rather take mass transit if they could, and rent a car when they need it.

    Problem is Toyota and Honda seem not to be living up to their own standards. One last example, the new Honda CRV had a fluid leak between the engine and transmission. Many new owners drove their CRVs home from the dealer, and found a puddle of fluid under their cars next morning. Honda (they tell me) has fixed the problem. Still leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
  • gbabalukgbabaluk Member Posts: 70
    I agree 100% about this Camry. My SE V6 is an adequate car but I am sure that any car that is around what I paid for it, is at least as good! Here in Canada, if I would have been smarter, I would have bought the Hyundai Azera for about the same price.
    I own an Infiniti G35 as well, and the difference is that I paid $10K more for it and it has $10K more of everything!
    You get what you pay for.
    Anyway, I will keep the Camry for another couple of years and then get rid of it and NOT buy another Toyota!
    Have a great day
  • fxguyfxguy Member Posts: 132
    Its a Toyota! The shift should be smooth and effortless regardless of what was paid for it! Sorry but i guess Toyota has spoilt us and as such, we expect ALL their cars to be "refined". :)
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    That is true...they have spoiled us. For me, all else aside, it's a good car for the money. What I am happy about is I'm still getting very good gas mileage. On a recent trip to Hilton Head Island I got 34mpg, and generally get 23.5-24 in mixed local driving. Gas prices are going up again because we MAY have a hurricane hit us. Any excuse they can use to raise the prices...
  • seniorchief1seniorchief1 Member Posts: 2
    I've been reading the thread for about a week. I've had the cruise control up shifting / down shifting problem, the hesitation then unexpected down shift speeding issue and the floating deceleration issue since I got my new 2007 Camry Le 4 cyl. 5 speed in June. I always thought it was just my car. This is my sixth Camry or Avalon and it just didn't drive like a Toyota.
    After following the thread, I went into my local dealer yesterday and told him I wanted TSB EG036-07 installed. He did it in about 2 hours, and the Camry now drives like a different car. It feels like a Camry. Everything is fixed.
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    seniorchief1, this is great news. As you have read in previous notes, I had the same problems as you, and the TSB fixed all of them. It truly drives and behaves like a different car. I was considering trading my car in September, but now am happy.
  • nathan118nathan118 Member Posts: 31
    How would you describe the "floating deceleration" issue? Is that the engine braking when you're trying to coast problem?

    And also, questions for chief and joel...when were your '07 camrys made? I've got a june 07 make. Until now I've thought my car was too new and shouldn't have any problems, but hearing about a new possible fix, hopefully even for my car, sounds good.

    Won't know if my vin applies until I get home and can give a dealer a call.
  • chuck28chuck28 Member Posts: 259
    Hello, just wanted to say I feel exactly the same way as you do.
    I have a V-6 and I'm getting ready to take my car back in to a dealership that can duplicate my rough shifting and rpm flare.
    I'm tied of Toyota saying it's normal.
    This is not. I'm not giving up this fight yet.
    These are real issues with the transmission and I would advise anyone that is considering buying a new Camry to wait till Toyota shows that they are willing to make it right with the buyers of these 07 Camry's.
    I'm very unhappy with my car!
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    Mine was made in March 2007 timeframe.
  • camryowner1camryowner1 Member Posts: 62
    Hi, I feel same as you. Just had TSB EG036-07 installed. Hesitation was improved somewhat, but rpm flare and downshifting problems remain. I am applying for arbitration. If that doesn't work, will take legal action under Lemon Law.
    Too bad Toyota is trying to cover up this very obvious problem with the 07 Camry transmission. I have owned Camrys for the past 15 years buying new in 1992,2000,2003,and 2007. All but the 2007 have been outstanding cars. This 2007 Camry is the worst performing car I have ever owned, be it new or used. Have not given up the fight!!!
  • collettevcollettev Member Posts: 3
    hello, i just wanted to reply to all the comments on the 2007 camry's.i have the v6 le and i have been turned down on arbritation and am wating to see if they are going to reverse that decission. my car was involved in an accident and my husband thinks that it was due to the surges that my car has . i have taken it back to the dealer and they have updated the thing twice and each time it gets worse. i have talked with the toyota people in cincinatti and california and have gotten NOWHERE.... the last conversation was to let them know i was never so dissatisfied with owning a toyota than i am now . had an 1990 camry with 176,000 miles on it and loved it . but this 2007 is horriable. it is like it goes into neutural and then it grabs a gear finally and surges you forward . i was told it is a smart transmission and that is the way it is suppose to drive . well i told them they needed to put a dumb one in it cuz this one ain't working . i just don't understand with all the compalints why they are not doing something . i told the guy in california that i thought toyota's number one concern was the customer and now i have found out that it is not . what are we suppose to do with these cars? thanks for listening . collette
  • camryowner1camryowner1 Member Posts: 62
    Hi Collettev, What was the reason that you were turned down on arbitration? How many miles did you have on it and how long had you owned it when you went to arbitration? Did you take any witnesses with you to the oral hearing? What evidence did you present to show problems? If needed, I might suggest that you use the Lemon Law in your state to take legal action. Also, you might write a letter to the CEO, Toyota,USA. Get info at Toyota.com (ASK Toyota) Good Luck, and post any outcomes of your case so that the rest of us can see how Toyota treats you.
  • collettevcollettev Member Posts: 3
    the reason i was turned down according to the letter from the dispute place is that the car had been involved in accident. but according to the man in california from toyota it is because ( he states that there is nothing wrong with my car.) i goT so mad . i informed him that i drive the car and i was telling him that there was something wrong with the car.( he states that it is the way the car was designed to perform.) it is called drive by wire system. i wished i had thought and said that WHAT , IT IS DESIGNED TO RUN UP AND HIT THE BACK END OF VEHICLES??????. JERK YOU FORWARD WHEN THE STUPID THING DESIDES WHAT GEAR IT SHOULD BE IN. i called the dispute place back and told her that it was not fair that there was something wrong with my car and i could not even get someone to drive it long enough to see.that it is not fair to have to pay on something that is not right . i have not heard back from them yet to see if i am going to get another chance to even go to arbritation. i have talked with a lawyer and if things are not settled i am hiring him. i am tired of all the bull....!!!my car is a little over a yr old with 18,ooo or so miles on it .so dissapointed in toyota
  • chuck28chuck28 Member Posts: 259
    Hello, I know exactly what you are going through.
    Please know that the lemmon law or arbritration requres atleast 3 attempts to fix the problem. If you don't have those attemps they have already decided your case befor eyou go to the meeting. They just don't tell you that.
    I had two attempt with video evedence and they turned me down even though I made a great case.
    Arbitration will use the same guide lines that the lemmon law uses even though it's not a lemmon law case. That means you need atleast 3 fixes for the same problem.
    I'm having problems with the dealership even attempting to fix my car because they know it will lead to a 3rd fix and then I would qualify for the lemmon law guiede lines.
    This is really unfait to all us camry owners who are experiencing the problems.
    We need to stick to gether and don't give up the fight.
    Feel free to look at my profile and contact me.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    It would be quite easy to design an aftermarket kit to prevent these transaxles from so quickly upshifting upon a lift-throttle coastdown event.

    But then the aftermarket kit supplier would become subject to all the wrongful death lawsuits FWD manufacturers are attempting to avoid by adopting the new shift pattern/sequence/schedule.

    Truly a CONUNDRUM..!!
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    you entered your issue with www.nhtsa.org right?

    it's important that others out there are made aware of the issues people like you are facing, and dispite toyota's and the dealership's position on the matter, the behaviors of these vehicles represent a true safety issue (for you and the passengers in your vehicle), and the vehicles immediately surrounding you.

    it's as plain and simple as that.

    toyota needs to have stepped up (a while ago).
  • camryowner1camryowner1 Member Posts: 62
    Hi, I agree with you, so I entered my issue with the 07 Camry LE 4cyl/5spd automatic flare up and downshifting problems with NHTSA.ORG so that other people might be aware of the safety issue with this car.
  • seniorchief1seniorchief1 Member Posts: 2
    The "floating deceleration" was my way of describing the feeling that I was not slowing down when I took my foot off the gas. On flat ground, when I took my foot off the gas the cars speed and tack read like the pedal was still depressed at a steady state. I could count to 8 and I either maintained my position in traffic or in some cases felt like I was gaining on the cars ahead of me. Terrible in stop and go traffic. I was riding the brake wa too much. I initially solved the problem by dropping the trans. into 4th and leaving it there. Now with the TSB installed I feel the deceleration when I pick my foot off the gas.
  • nathan118nathan118 Member Posts: 31
    Have an appointment for tomorrow morning to have the transmission looked at. The service guy on the phone was almost rude when I said I was calling about looking to have a TSB installed, and informed me that wasn't the way it worked. They look at the car and they decide when to do one. He said you bring it in and we'll look at it first. To which I wanted to reply, ok jackass, then I want to bring it for you to look at it.

    Said I'll probably have to go on a road test so they can see the problems. I really hope this isn't more headache than it's worth.
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    nathan118, you are right, dealer wrong; that is absolutely the way it works!! If anything, they need to check your Vin for the build date; that's all. They don't want to tie up a service bay and tech for a $0 return. My dealer was very happy to install the TSB, no questions asked. Again, the TSB is for ALL 2007 Camry's, and they should install at your request. It takes about 1-2 hours (mine was 1 hour). Remember to remind them to hook up your car battery to an external charger BEFORE starting the TSB installation. I guess I lucked out with a great dealership (Toyota of Concord, NC). I am happy to report that after two weeks, the car continues to drive like a different car under all circumstances. No accel/decel problems, no hesitation (well, minor on really HOT days - over 100 - due to the air conditioner), and shifts are what I'd expect in all situations encountered. Quite frankly, I am surprised by how much "snap" this little 4 banger has; my car is actually fun to drive now. I am happy now, whereas before I was going to trade in September, and take the loss. Don't take any crap from your dealer. The fix actually works; one thing for sure, it can't be any worse than the initial software with hesitation, rough/poor shift, etc. Good Luck!!!
  • chuck28chuck28 Member Posts: 259
    Hello, I want to share a reply a dealership told to my mothers friend who has a 07 xle V-6. She was at a stop light and her car surged forward with her just sitting at the light.
    She took it to the dealership and they told her nothing was wrong with her car and she should keep the brake pedal pushed all the way down when the air-conditioning is running, How lame is that.
    This is becoming a serious safety concern. You may already have read others who have experienced this problems. WAKE UP TOYOTA!!!
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    Hi chuck28, i have owned cars in the past (one a Honda Accord) that would surge forward slightly when the air con compressor kicked in and out. It may be that the surge is not related at all to the transmission problem. Not sure this should be classified as "normal"; maybe the dealer should check the tach at idle? Anyone else have any suggestions?
  • camryowner1camryowner1 Member Posts: 62
    Hi Joel, Glad to hear that new TSB worked for your Camry. I also had it installed last Friday (8/17) and noticed a nice improvement in the acceleration, but car still shifts too often when in cruise control and encountering even a slight inclined highway (3 times in 1 mile of travel). I would like to know if anyone else has this problem after the new TSB is installed. How about you?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...shifts too often..."

    Sorry, you have just arrived in the future...!

    Both of the vehicles I rented while on vacation this year would shift so often it made me think something was wrong. The first was a 2007 Mazda minivan and I was totally convinced it had some strange transaxle behavior until I rented a 2007 Chrysler Sebring the next week and if anything found it was even worse.

    These days everthing possible is being done to keep the engine operating within its best FE "sweet spot", the lowest possible RPM at which the engine will just barely produce the level of HP/torque required in the instantaneous, short term, sense.

    Then throw in the need to have the transaxle ALWAYS upshift upon a lift-throttle event to increase the vehicles safety factor by avoid any substantial level of engine compression braking and you have TOO MANY SHIFTS

    Take a 6 speed automatic transaxle with a lockup clutch for the torque converter and you essentially now have a 9 "speed" transaxle. To the benefit of improving FE Lockup clutches are now being used, engaged, in gear ratios below OD.

    Maybe an effort is afoot to try and match the FE that can be attained with some of the new CVT equipped vehciles.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    best sweet spot at the expense of the driver and passenger comfort. wonderfully advanced. not. :sick:
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    But I suspect this "too many shifts" thing is something we will/can grow more used to, be forced to grow more used to, as time goes by.

    Unless we somehow end up with almost all vehicles CVT equipped.
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    One of the reasons for the push for FE is the change in the measurement standards for estimated gas mileage. Many (but not all yet) cars are listed on www.fueleconomy.gov for 2008 models, and in some cases the numbers have changed substantially. Toyota vehicles look to be slightly better than the rest of the bunch.
  • nathan118nathan118 Member Posts: 31
    Just brought my car home from the dealer. They weren't near as easy as Joel's dealer. I had the number, but they didn't even want to look at it. I'm a stupid customer, I don't know anything about servicing the car!

    They made me go on a road test with a service technician. He was nice, and they decided they could look at improving the transmission performance.

    Two hours later I get the car back, and the operation that was performed is "EG7031." That doesn't look at all like the new TSB Joel is raving about.

    The ride home was mixed. I'll give it a few days, and if they haven't done this newest TSB, I'll try and take it back, or find a place that will do it when I ask them to.

    Any thoughts on what the EG7031 is? Thanks guys.
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    Again, just to be clear, I have a 2007 4cyl 5spd automatic XLE Camry.

    Here's the information from my TSB
    Number = EG036-07

    Title: ECM Calibration: Enhancement to shifting performance & smoothness

    Note: This TSB supersedes TSB No. EG056-06 (obsolete and should be discarded)

    Applicable Vehicles: 2007 Model Year Camry vehicles equipped with 2AZ-FE engine

    Applicable Warranty: This repair is covered under the Toyota Federal Emissions Warranty. This warranty is in effect for 96 months or 80,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the vehicle's in-service date.
  • nathan118nathan118 Member Posts: 31
    Yours is much more detailed than mine. The only other thing I see indicating what was done besides "EG7031" is the description of the correction. It says:

    "Performed ECU Recalibration to Improve Shift Logic."
  • teamtboteamtbo Member Posts: 78
    Nathan,

    Hmm, I have a subscription to TundraSolutions.com which lists all the 2007 Camry TSBs. I don't see anything that matches the TSB you mentioned. Could it be brand new? Also, your TSB is missing a number. Here are all of them that start with EG:

    EG004-07 M.I.L. ON DTC P0011, P0012, OR P0016
    EG014-07 M.I.L. ON DTC P0456 (REVISED)
    EG015-07 2AZ-FE ENGINE BLOCK
    EG018-02 2GR-FE ENGINE OIL LEAK FROM FRONT TIMING COVER
    EG018-06 ILSAC GF-4 ENGINE OIL RECOMMENDATION
    EG034-07 ENGINE BANK 1 AND BANK 2 A/F AND O2 IDENTIFICATION
    EG038-06 2GR-FE (V6) ENGINE OIL LEAK (REVISED)
    EG039-06 EXCESSIVE ENGINE NOISE AFTER TRANSAXLE REMOVAL
    EG056-06 ECM CALIBRATION: ENHANCEMENT TO SHIFTING PERFORMANCE & SMOOTHNESS (REVISED)
  • nathan118nathan118 Member Posts: 31
    Just talked to the dealer. Apparently "EG7031" is the operation code that they send to Toyota...but the guy confirmed that they did perform the newest TSB, EG036-07.

    I'll drive it for a few days and see where I'm at. :)
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    Ah, that clears it up...GREAT!!! I hope it works out for you too. Maybe the Toyota engineers got it right, or at least LESS WRONG.
  • rfarkerfarke Member Posts: 3
    When I got the EG056-06 done on my Camry last summer, the shop ticket there listed an operation number that was different from the TSB number. I suspect that isn't something to be alarmed about.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    or something they are intentionally doing? :shades:
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    This great explanation provides more reasons to get a manual transmission!
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    My service guy told me these types of problems don't occur on the manual transmission version of these cars. He did say all Toyota vehicles will be going drive by wire, as well as Hondas, and other Japanese brands. Two reasons mentioned (a) fuel economy (b) wear and tear on the engine and transmission. I suppose less wear and tear would help the Japanese offer longer warranties (some are fairly short compared to the American and other Asian brands). He didn't mention safety, but others on this forum have (re: upshift before downshift upon throttle lift). I would like to hear if this happens on the Hybrid versions. Anyone know?
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    My service guy told me these types of problems don't occur on the manual transmission version of these cars.

    True, I have a '07 Camry with a manual transmission.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Yes, but if you have a manual transaxle it is presumed that:

    1. You know to use the clutch INSTANTLY if your seat of the pants sensor indicates that the current level of engine compression is excessive for roadbed conditions.

    2. You know, absolutely, not to downshift to a level that will result in loss of control due to excessive engine compression braking REGARDLESS of roadbed conditions.

    3. You might shift down into 1st gear before coming to a full and complete stop but you do not engage the clutch unless you are certain of roadbed traction conditions.

    4. You know that unlike a RWD or R/AWD w/stick shift you cannot use engine compression as "drag-braking" (braking only at the rear) to moderately brake the vehicle while simultaneously helping to maintain the vehicle's alignment with the roadbed or desired direction of travel.

    That being said...

    You may notice that fewer and fewer FWD and F/AWD vehicles are being made available in the marketplace, the RAV4 for instance. Apparently the industry feels that not everybody purchasing a FWD or F/AWD stick shift knows these RULES.

    Additionally some of the FWD and F/AWD vehicles that do still have a stick shift have control firmware that will automatically UP-REV the engine to closely match roadspeed if the ECU determines that your downshift would result in an extraordinary level of engine compression braking.

    Looks as if the new Suzuki SX4 stick shift uses that technique.
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    I've read some material that said the similar/same firmware that is in automatics with manual shift mode (either at the stick, or shift paddles on steering wheel)is somehow incorporated in (what some call) a "straight drive" (aka stick shift). Good thing most of us didn't know the danger we were in 20-30 years ago with stick shift, or automatic, front drivers. I had a 1978 stickshift Honda Accord when they first came out and got into a fender bender on ice when I downshifted going around a corner. Now THAT car was fun to drive--a shapely tin can on wheels, weighed almost nothing, smaller than today's civic.
  • nathan118nathan118 Member Posts: 31
    Let me preface this post with the fact that I'm weird when it comes to cars. I get car sick easily, very, easily.

    New TSB on the Camry still isn't cutting it. I think it's a little better, but still making me sick. At this point I'm looking to replace it. But that's not why I'm posting.

    Without going too off-topic, in the last two days I've driven the following cars.

    '07 Camry
    '07 Civic
    '07 Altima

    I can say that all three drive almost identically. The CVT in the Altima is nice, but there is a problem with all of them. When I press the gas and brakes, I feel disconnected from the car. Whether it's drive by wire stuff, or something else (I'm sure wwest can shed some light on this). Then I've driven two other cars:

    '01 Jetta (My wife's car)
    '07 Jetta

    These two cars drive identical, and COMPLETELY different from the previous three. When I press the gas, it goes, and it all feels so natural. Are the Volkswagens really made that diffently, because it feels like a completely different system. The Camry, Civic, Altima, all feel the same.

    So that's where I'm at. Off to look at some Jettas! :) I love this forum.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Just now before I responded I Googled for:

    Volkswagon hesitation

    (Volkswagon, wrong spelling but that's the way I googled.)

    Interesting, VERY interesting....

    I suggest you do the same.

    Up until just now I have been comfortable with my belief that this engine/transaxle delay/hesitation issue had to do ONLY with FWD and F/AWD vehicles. The first google hit as a result of the above search has made me begin to think otherwise.

    But I suppose inadvertent (SURPRISE!) wheelslip due to engine compression braking at the rear can be just as detrimental as in the front in certain circumstances. Say for inexperienced drivers that tend to freeze up when something life threatening unexpectedly occurs. But I still content that this occurance is less threatening on the rear wheels since you still have traction at the front for maintaining directional control.

    So maybe it has to do with the evolution of the firmware design of ALL automatic transmissions(***). The goal seems to be to make them act more like one would use a stick shift and clutch.

    What was that Clint Eastwood fighter pilot movie awhile back wherein the airplane's "ECU" could read the pilot's mind?

    Maybe that's where all this is headed. Just to avoid a clutch pedal....??

    *** Or maybe not.

    The Touareg can be in 4X4 mode wherein 50% of engine compression braking effects will be at the front wheels making it potentially just as unsafe as a FWD.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Let me say that I "feel" for you there.

    I don't often feel the effects of my RX300's strange upshifting technique but rarely I do get that slightly queasy feeling in my stomach. Oftentimes if I think back I can usually attribute it to just having experienced a circumstance wherein the RX unexpectedly upshifts.

    Sort of like that "here and quickly gone" momentarily out of control experience as you fly a light airplane through a slight/short up or down draft.
  • joel16joel16 Member Posts: 64
    I see all too many people driving around here with tires that really should be replaced. They either have too little tread, or are too low profile compared to what is standard or recommended for the car. But, on average, I agree that it is, at least for me, easier to control a rear drive in a slip versus a front driver. I've driven plenty of both (rentals) and the rear drivers seem better, especially without traction control.
  • nathan118nathan118 Member Posts: 31
    Finally traded in the Camry and bought a new jetta, and I love it. Forget the supposed Toyota quality, I love the way the jetta drives, and finally feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

    For all future Camry buyers, don't take my bad experience as a condemnation of the Camry, because I'm not exactly normal. What I recommend is driving a LOT of cars to see how they drive. For me, the Jetta felt completely different than most of the asian cars on the market, and for me that was a good thing. Everyone is different though, so go out and drive cars for yourself, and don't assume that a car will be good just because of the name on the back.

    Good luck to everybody!
  • teamtboteamtbo Member Posts: 78
    Nathan, glad to hear that you are happy with your new car! That is what matters. I am looking into trading in my 2007 Camry once I get the Title from the credit union. I think your advice for everyone is awesome. I wish I had done that before buying my Camry just because of the name on the back.
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