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Comments
You are right, however what you are missing, is that the vehicle didn't have enough power to hold the target cruise speed thru even the slightest of inclines. This is an old past tense problem for me, because the has TSB resolved this problem.
I drove the same interstate beltline every day with a number of different vehicles on cruise, rarely is there a need for the other vehicles to downshift to maintain cruise speed. We're not talking the hills of West Virgina, where you would expect downshifting to occur.... we're talking about very-very slight grades in normally flat terrain.
If I drove without the cruise control using standard old gas pedal, it would rarely downshift (but I would be allowing the speed to drop slightly). With the cruise control engaged however, it would downshift many times from 5 lockup to third, sending the rpm's sky high while it's doing it. The shifting is really so bad, that you don't want to use the cruise for fear of doing damage to the engine or transmission.
Between all of the cars I've owned and the hundreds rented over the years, I've never had anything perform so poorly on cruise. But again, this was a past problem. The original TSB a year ago resolved this problem for me.
I've been a VERY happy camper for a year, and would not hesitate to buy another one. It's one of our daily drivers...great car.
I know I still have problems with my car and have gone through Arbritration.
If you noticed you don'y hear to many people talking about winning in Arbritration?
Toyota has tuned this into a fight with the consumer.
I know I don't like spending this much time on these web sites and I'm, sure nobody else does either.
It's real and beaware of buying a Toyota Camry until Toyta says they have fixed the problem. The dealerships are trained to say this is the first we have heard od the problem.
Please be advised, that if your read my posting "very carefully," you will notice that I am trying to "support" those Camry owners who have the problem with their vehicles!---------- I stated in my posting that I enjoy my Camry, and I do not have the problem at 16,000 miles. (That does not mean that the problem will not surface in the future, but at the present time, I do not have the problem.) I do not believe that Toyota has done enough to help the Camry owners who have the problem. These people have purchased this vehicle in "good faith" believing that they were getting a high quality vehicle. As we can see, this was not the "reality" that they expected.
I do not understand your comment. Kindly explain your position with regards to my posting. I doubt that I will purchase another Camry in 2010, even though I love my vehicle, and I am very satisfied with the selling dealer. My dissatisfaction comes from the way "Toyota" deals with the consumer after the purchase! There is TOO MUCH TALK, and NOT ENOUGH ACTION! Every customer has a right to expect a certain level of value for their dollar. I could have easily gotten one of those "problem vehicles"! Why should I take a chance on another Toyota product???? Let Toyota persuade me to make another purchase by solving this issue in a professional manner! When I make a purchase, I expect "quality" for my money, and I also expect the parent company to "back up their product". My obligation is to service the product in a professional manner!
Best regards. ----- Dwyane :shades:
With that video, do you know the model of that Camry. The instrument panel/gauges look different than the ones in my 2007 LE I4 Camry.......I do not have an "S" next to the "D" in my car, and where the mileage is displayed, I do not have a line above the mileage readout.
Also, it looks like the person's window is down because snow is coming into the vehicle.
You and I have an I4 with 5 speed transmission.
Yes, it is going to hold a higher RPM for a while, because it just downshifted. It downshifted because it needed a lower gear for however long (could be a short time, could be miles up a very long and steep grade) to maintain the same speed. If the car would immediately upshift again, it would start losing speed again, right? This is normal for automatics. Of course, if you have a larger engine, the need to downshift may not be necessary.
From what I have read, I think the new TSB solves the complaints about the 4 cylinder.
It's my studied opinion your car has the capability of displaying the problem. The factors are the "learning" that the computer has done in your case adapting to your driving acceleration methods and your actual driving patterns not involving need for quick acceleration after hesitation or decel.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
To check whether you have EG036-07, you should look on the underside of your hood for a sticker.
But joel as I've mentioned before, you supposedly have the latest 036-07, but you car isn't behaving like you have it. If you don't have the sticker, you definitely don't have the TSB installed. If you have the sticker, I personally would take it back and suggest to the dealer that you are still experiencing the problem and could they re-do the install.
You are probably correct with regards to your analysis of my driving style, and my vehicle. I tend to accelerate slowly, and on the highway, I tend to leave a large space between my vehcile, and the vehicle in front of me. When I do accelerate to pass, I "press the accelerator slowly," the trasmission does down shift, and the vehicle does accelerate very rapidly, after which I slowly "back-off" on the accelerator as I return to the right hand lane. Maybe the vehicle has learned my driving style, and has adapted. On the city streets I tend to drive the vehicle in the manual transmission mode. I set the selector for #4 in the manual mode, and the transmission shifts from one to four. I ride the 4th gear through traffic. It gives me "engine braking" and "quick acceleration". Sometimes I set the manual mode to 3rd gear, and I ride this gear in city traffic. (It depends on the speed of the city traffic.)
Best regards. ----- Dwayne :shades: :confuse:
These engines, I4 or V6, attain the BEST FE when operating at WOT (lowest pumping loss) or at the lowest possible RPM (lowest frictional loss) that will still maintain the current roadspeed.
AT THE LOWEST POSSIBLE RPM THAT WILL STILL MAINTAIN THE CURRENT ROADSPEED.
Get it..??
The lowest, LOWEST, possible RPM...
Right on the cusp of just barely producing enough HP.
These vehicles DO NOT have CVTs so I would imagine that a lot of computer time is burned modeling the transaxle gear ratios in order to come up with the most OPTIMAL OD and higher gear ratios
Folks, you are now driving a finely tuned, SWISS WATCH, type of vehicle.
So, yes, there is a while lotta shiftin' going on.
If you have a six speed, 5 speed plus OD w/lockup, you really have a NINE speed gearbox, as the lockup will often be used in the gear rations below OD.
And keep in mind that the cruise control system does not have your forward vision. Absent that, the cruise control must sit there "dumbly" waiting for the speed to decline AFTER starting up the incline, downshift accordingly (HARSH, ABRUPT, LATE downshift insofar as YOU are concerned), and then HOLD that downshift ratio BEYOND the crest, or until the roadspeed begins to rise.
With nine forward gear ratios the ECU has the ability to keep the engine well within the operating parameters for attaining BEST FE, but in the process it will use ALL of those gear ratios, AND OFTEN.
The problem is that these days more attention is being paid by the manufacturers to the issue of FE. Again keep in mind that the engine/transaxle control ECU is programmed to do its best to keep the engine operating at it's LOWEST possible RPM during constant speed "cruising", especially under cruise control.
So, yes, the speed starts to decline slightly due to reaching the inclined roadbed, but now....
The ECU is BLIND, is this to be a brief declination in speed, and if so it should maintain, for driveability aspects, the current gear ratio. How long should it wait before coming to the "realization" that the declination in speed is prolonged. Certainly long enough that the driver doesn't become irritated by "too much shiftin'".
I admit, readily, that I was very irritated at the number of shifts, gear changes, the two 2007 vehicles I drove this past spring would make in relatively level terrain. But the fact of the matter was that it soon became clear that the use of the cruise control would reduce that number substantially.
Thankfully I'm not in the market for a new vehicle, but if I were I think I might stick with manual transmissions until this "Perfect Storm" blows over.
We have entered a new era, get used to it.
But the above is by no means intended to be an excuse or explanation for the flare issue nor the hesitation issue. Those are REAL problems and something Toyota should undoubtedly be paying a LOT more attention to.
That's what I did, manual tranny Camrys are hard to find, but they are out there.
"But the above is by no means intended to be an excuse or explanation for the flare issue nor the hesitation issue. Those are REAL problems and something Toyota should undoubtedly be paying a LOT more attention to. "
From what I am reading, the new TSB is correcting most people's problems.
That is quite clearly a design flaw within the cruise control ECU firmware. The cruise control ECU should be programmed to hold the transaxle in the downshifted range until/unless the incline steepness becomes less, lower enough that an upshift would still allow enough "on the cusp" engine torque to the roadbed to sustain the set speed.
I would ask the dealer about a TSB for this symptom, and if one is not presently available complain to Toyota directly.
Sound like the RUN-AROUND? OR CATCH-22?
Mackabee
Read my response to above message.
Mack
1. are people, in general, for the most part happy with their Camry's
2. is Toyota what it professes to be? a company that cares about it's customers and the reputation of its cars?
When you are having this sawtooth cruise control problem, how fast are you going, and what is your rpm?
Assuming that the original rpm's are lower than 2K, can you try a test along the same road....drive faster to get your rpm's up at say 2000 and then another at 2500, and see if that doesn't stop the sawtoothing.
At those RPM's, the engine has more torque and HP, and I'm thinking it will hold the target speed.
Mackabee
Mackabee
Mackabee
2. Toyota the manufacturer does care for its customers. The dealer network is where some of the customer service issues reside. There are a lot of what I like to call dinosaurs that still do business like they did 30 years ago. Slowly but surely these will go out of business or get taken over by other mega dealers. You are probably aware that the president of Toyota Japan is very concerned with the recent lapse in quality with some of our vehicles and wants the problem rectified. Toyota didn't get to where it is today by not caring for their customer base and making top notch vehicles.
Mack
But I wouldn't be so quick to jump in and assert that the Camry and the Honda do not have the same transaxles. The japanese manufacturers are not any different than US manufacturers in that regard, they often "share" the same suppliers. Is there any japanese manufacturer, or even asian for that matter, that doesn't use NipponDenso as the supplier for climate control systems?
Previously described in post 566 & 574.
The transmission 'flare', happens on 6 cylinder engine/6 speed transmissions, when the transmission is cold. One poster has captured it on a video, which is in post 574. This is known problem, TSB issued but seems to not fix the issue and Toyota will either replace the solenoids and/or ultimately the whole transmission on a number of vehicles. Sometimes the issue is resolved, other times still remains and is believed to be an inherent problem of the 6 speed design. Some users have had the transmission replaced a couple times.
The cruise control, hesitation, and what recently Joel has nicknamed the 'sawtooth' problem, is on the I4-5speed. For most folks, there was an early TSB last year, which was superceded by a recent TSB in August. For most folks, the TSBs have resolved the problem. Read earlier post for the cruise control/sawtooth symptoms.
These symptoms/problems have been described and documented in these Edmund forums since a month after the vehicle started selling.
Kindly be advised that I have a GREAT Toyota Dealer, who gives me outstanding service every time that I present my vehicle for service,(which is every 2,500 miles.) Now having said that, there is another side to this transmission issue. When I see other people having a problem with the same vehicle, and the parent company is not taking a serious interest in their concern, and I own one of these vehicles, ---- that is VERY personal to me! It is very possible, that my driving style is masking the problem in my vehicle, since I DO NOT USE my cruise control, and I use the manual side of the transmission in city traffic. I simply do not like the cruise feature in any vehicle. I would rather make my own driving decisions.
I have been following this issue, since I purchase my 2007 XLE Camry in January. The reason for this interest is as follows: ----1.)I want to know, for future reference, what if any solution to the problem Toyota is developing; ---- 2) At what mileage does the problem show it's ugly head; ---and ----3.) What actions are being taken by the customer base to get the problem corrected. This is called being an informed consumer.
I have nothing personally against the Toyota Corporation. As a consumer, I purchased a "loaded" top-of-the-line Camry. I have an expectation that I purchased a "HIGH QUALITY PRODUCT" that is backed by both a warranty, and an extended 100,000 mile warranty that I purchased at the time of sale. Should something malfuction, that expectation includes a timely diagnosis of the problem and a professional repair. If Toyota cannot accomplish that task on a particular vehicle, they had no business putting that vehicle on the market, and in the process taking the money from consumers, based on Toyota's past reputation. I think the word that describes this is "ethics," (a set of moral principles or values). The customers on this board are concerned with being stuck with a vehicle that is going to have a major transmission failure after the 3 year / 36,000 mile warranty has expired, and as such, they will then be responsible for the cost of the repair. In addition, they are concerned with an "operational / safety issue" as they use this vehicle on a daily basis. As an owner of this vehicle, I have the right to exchange ideas on this subject, because I have a vested interest in this subject. I paid my admissions fee to this party in the form of the purchase price of the vehicle. If these vehicles,(that have the problem), are operating as designed, then let Toyota prove that fact to the customer! That is Toyota's obligation! If they are not operating properly, then let Toyota fix the problem of buy back the product!
Best regards. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas and opinions in a professional manner. (Nothing personal, just business!) ----- Dwayne :shades: :shades:
The first one, left on the screen, is very enlightening.
We see the drop in engine RPM as the shift into third (presumably) occurs, pretty much SOP.
Then with the shift into fourth(?) it is quite clear, not only via the tachometer but aurally, that the engine overspeeds briefly and then drops back into the "proper" range.
In both videos the engine appears to be dead COLD and the RPM and speed ranges involved also makes it clear, to me anyway, that the driver was not by any means "lead-footing" (not even close IMMHO) it at the time.
But the second video raises some serious doubts in my mind regarding its circumstantial authenticity.
Not only is the surge in the extreme, well above 5000 RPM, but the engine drops to an idle RPM level immediately thereafter and the roadspeed begins to decline.
It's possible the driver got off the throttle quickly upon encountering such a serious engine overspeed/flare. But that explanation doesn't seem to be cognizant with what the driver was trying to accomplish.
Looks like, rather than an upshift flare, a quick shift to neutral to me...
Is/was there an explanation..?
How'd you stand that for 4 hours?
The problem is, would be, if the cruise control, under a constant load, dropped out of the downshift state due only to regaining the set speed, the speed again declined, downshift, etc, etc.
In other words on a "constant" upslope, incline, the cruise control forced more than a single upshift/downshift sequence.
The cruise control's "short hold" of a downshift state in order to regain the set speed going up an incline might very well be SOP. The speed declined initially because the CC, unlike you, could not initially "foresee" the need to add in a bit more engine torque. Now that it has "seen" the extra load level it may very well return to the initial upshifted state but now increase the throttle level just enough to sustain the set speed.
The "sawtooth" issue arises if it yet again has to downshift to regain the set speed without any additional "upslope" engine load, loading. Obviously an increase in the upslope "rate", even a slight one, might very well result in a need to downshift yet again.
Remember, keep in mind, that the BASE goal is to improve FE to the nth degree by keeping the transaxle in the highest possible gear ratio, thereby the lowest possible engine RPM.
My LE I4 - "pre-original TSB from last year", was getting about 24-25 mpg highway, and had the cruise control problem big time. After the TSB was installed, we got 29mpg on a highway trip travelling 70-75mph.
Now I can't definitively prove that the mpg increase was due to the TSB and only the TSB. Interstate was different, gas companies were different, the vehicle had more miles on it and could have been 'broken in' more, etc.
Net is, the car runs substantially better than it did pre-TSB. It used to act like it was just too lean, and didn't have enough power....and we are now getting better mpg than before. Whether the TSB changes mixture, or engine spark timing, or shift points, or anticipatory delays/advances, or all of the above.....I don't know and have not seen any details. The TSB fixed my problem, and I'm getting better mileage......happy! What the revised TSB did different than the original one, I don't know that either but they've obviously decided to further tweak it.
Many who have had the TSB report resolution to their issues. Why a subset of I4 folks are still having problems, I have no idea.
Soo, the programmers overdid the FE thing initially. It happens, I KNOW.
Operating the engine so close, TOO CLOSE, to the point of almost not having enough HP to sustain a set speed with minor load variations can be overdone. Overdone would undoubtedly result in TOO OFTEN having to downshift and regain the lost speed.
Net result...POOR FE.
Looks as if the TSB was really a recognition, and sunsequent correction, of a software design flaw. Glad it worked.
ateixeira, "Are Toyota's recent quality problems just a glitch?" #831, 19 Sep 2007 7:18 am
and specifically:
http://www.angelfire.com/ky3/gabby/intake_mod.htm
That's really interesting.
Of course, if you're lean to begin with, adding more air is gonna push you in the wrong direction. So I'm mentally conflicted on how to react to it.
But it's an interesting post.
Back to the Cruise, what if, Toyota applied their pre-existing cruise implementation with the new Torque Convertor, Transmission, Engine, DBW combo, but didn't really test it out. I mean, I buy the search for the FE Grail and all, but what if they just flat out goofed in the test phase and the Cruise needs to be substantially reworked to be compatible with these new elements?
Mack
Dear Dwayner,
That is not a true statement. All Toyotas have a 5 year or 60,000 mile power train or drive train warranty. This includes your transmission, engine, and other lubricated components.
There are no perfect cars that I know of yet. Toyota/Lexus probably come closest IMHO. Some things will break and be fixed under the warranty, some may not be fixable. That's why you have the lemon law protection available to you.
By the way, extended warranties are not worth the paper they are printed on. They don't cover what actually breaks on the car. You are wasting your money by having the car serviced every 2500 miles. Oil changes are required every six months or 5000 miles which ever comes first. Enjoy your Camry. I've owned three in my lifetime and my next one will more than likely be another Camry.
Mackabee
Mack, if you go back several years on the NHTSA website, you'll see problems with Toyota/Lexus DBW isn't a new thing.
They won't issue a recall unless there have been reports of accidents or fatalities. The NTHSA is responsible for that.
Mack
Mack
As this problem got more wide spead Toyota got stricter with the dealerships and didn't want to start buying back cars.
Since that car replacement you mentioned dealers are getting trained by Toyota reps. on how to deal with the consumer complaints.
Thats why you don't hear about any car replacements anymore.
Thanks for trying to care.
We would stay away from if these problems were affecting this car.
thanks