Toyota Land Cruiser

bobbio56 · January 2004

came to that reality the other day...why fight for the early deliveries...i have company car and although it is a taurus pos...it is free and thay have been very reliable....thanks...the dealer now knows my threshold....will report back as the saga continues...

idahodoug · January 2004

The FJ80s were made to lumber along rough terrain reliably, year in and year out. Almost no thought was given to MPG efficiency. The parts are overbuilt and heavy and the bearings throughout are large surface area and the shape was intended for function, not to decrease the air resistance. If you bought it expecting good MPG, you bought the wrong vehicle. You own a vehicle designed to live out its operational life in a harsh bush environment, and attempts to improve the MPG will be met with frustration.

Accept this and put your money into things that make sense long term like quality oil, keeping it properly tuned and maintained and you'll be much happier. Chasing a half MPG with dollars is not wise.

IdahoDoug

vavavavolvo · January 2004

As you can see, this more modern design already exists in the land down under

http://search.carsguide.news.com.au/thecouriermail/display_used.j- sp?rec_id=670620&make_id=TOYOTA&site_id=thecouriermail

steelcruiser · January 2004

It's the 90 Series (4Runner here).

loosebottles · January 2004

I'm kind of dissapointed in the literature Toyota included with my '03 Crusier. I'm left with questions re service requirements to keep the LC within Toyota's specs to avoid voiding the warranty or having issues if repairs are later req'd..The booklet/pamphlet is broad and covers all of Toyota's models. I did purchase the extended platinum warrenty from Toyota so I don't want any glitches/hastles if I ever needed to make a claim..

My questions surfaced when I spoke to a local dealer asking about my 15K service coming up. They include all kinds of things not recommended in the guide. I looked over the included service booklet from Toyota and couldn't find any info on transmission fld changes nor the other "dealer recommended maintenence items" that the person I spoke with mentioned.I know dealerships add on all kinds of items to increase the maintenence dept's profitablity. I don't want to do anything that is not truly req'd..According to what I remember reading from the Toyota "pamphlet",15K service basically included an inspection of much of the things listed on the edmunds maintenence pages and an oil change/tire rotation/re torque of the propeller shaft bolts?? Can't recall as I don't presently have the guide with me..(At work)I do remember it not including changing the F/R Diff flds and I don't recall ever seeing any mention of changing the tranny fld.. Based on my driving conditions, I'm fine with the 5K oil change intervals.

So, my questions are:
-F/R Diff Flds? How often to change? The dealer mentioned that they only inspect the levels and top up fld as needed.
-Transmission Fld? How often if ever to change..I find it hard to believe they (Toytota) only recommend inspections and adding fld if req'd..
-Is there a booklet that I'm missing? Possible to buy a guide anywhere online? The dealership stated the pamphlet I had was it..I'm game for doing my own services as able and fine to go to a dealership for the stuff that's out of my league..Thanks in advance for the help.

grantchstr · January 2004

"the Borla exhaust will improve gas mileage" - any proof for this assertion before I pay big bucks?
I am inclined to go along with idahodoug - the relativley low maintenance costs of the LC make up for the heavy fuel usage.
Before I spend money on a Borla I am waiting for the time when I HAVE to replace the manifold for maintenance reasons - what sort of mileage on an Fj80 might be expected for this?

grantchstr · January 2004

I found there was a complete disconnect between what a Toyota dealer's maintenace schedule is and what the actaul LC maintenace requirements are - according to the Owners Manual. Dealers dont have a separate maintenance shedule for the LC. This is a huge oversight by the TOYOTA company it seems to me. Toyota sell a whole range of vehicles but the dealers maintain the LC just like it was a Corolla.
The whole point of the LC is that it DOESNT need as much maintenance as other cars - including other Toyotas. I do not take my LC to dealers anymore as I am fed up with being ripped off.

steelcruiser · January 2004

I think the manuals give recommended intervals and that dealers "modify" them to give you some options. Depending on your driving habits and how you use your LC, it might be wise to change fluids etc more often. I suppose liability issues have come up and Toyota has decided that the best way to address them is to recommend, not dictate, service intervals.

If you're uncomfortable with what you're being told by your dealer, you might try going to another one. I would also recommend that you consider buying the repair manual.

FWIW I do most of the maintenance on my '02. I change out my F/R diff and TCase at 10K intervals and also my ATF (pan only). While I'm underneath, I do the chassis lube and propeller shaft etc.

It all looks pretty intimidating under there if you don't have some one who can tell you where the various things are. You might consider having your dealer do things for awhile and become friendly with the tech who works on your LC and ask him questions--assuming you're allowed to enter the shop area. Then you can try some things on your own as you become a bit more comfortable with your LC and where things are.

grantchstr. If you mean the LC doesn't need more frequent maintenance than other cars, I would tend to agree, but it does need more things done to it during a service. LCs are fantastic vehicles, but they do need to be taken care of

Sorry that you've had bad luck with dealers.

hicaira · January 2004

I have the Borla on my '98 and, unless you constantly flog your LC at high RPM's, do not expect to see any measurable difference in MPG. (But then, if you constantly flog your LC MPG should be the least of your concerns) I did notice a bit more power up beyond the 3000 RPM mark (and most noticable at around 4000), but I suspect that any increases in MPG are being offset by my increases in throttle input

I average 14-15 in town and 16-17 on the highway if I keep it under 75. It drops to 15 on the highway on long stretches at 80-85. Best I've ever gotten was 19.5 MPG on a tank. A serious tailwind made the difference there.

The sound of the Borla though beats the heck out of stock. Not louder, just lower. Finally, if you off-road, expect to bang up that pretty tip. It becomes the low point on the departure angle.

HiC

ruking1 · January 2004

I had a Borla on my 91 TLC(fj-80 model). Together with Mobil One 5w-30 (synthetic) I notice almost 1 mpg difference. As Hi has said, the effects of the Borla exhaust can be felt at higher RPM's. For me, I can hear the "vacuuming" sound going up to the 6k 6.5 elevation range. (going up to Tahoe CA/NV)

While it does have a 1M mile warranty, the fit in my case left a lot to be desired. Borla had to correction ship about 6 times to correct the deficiencies. I had to go to the dealer app 3 times to take care of issues unrelated to the dealer. I also had the hangers break a few times and my Toyota Dealership fixed it free on those occasions. To have sent it back or get the local representatives to fix it would have entailed far more hassle, work and down time! I have had 5 TLC's and did not bother to add it to any of the other 4.

idahodoug · January 2004

One of the major 4WD magazines in the last year added a Borla to a vehicle. They found absolutely no benefit save sound. The article was almost painful to read as the editors frantically tried to find good things to say about it so an advertiser and its PR article remained happy. Zero fuel economy impact, zero hp impact on a dyno. It was laughable.

DougM

blockislandguy · January 2004

Grantchstr, sorry, didn't quite follow the math on the "fully amortized" cost of running your LC. Are you saying that the your cost of buying it , less what it is worth today, divided by the number of months you owned it , is your "fully amortized cost"?

ruking1 · January 2004

My TLC depreciation experience as been a low of 3% to a more normal 6% per year.

If the article on Borla systems is to be believed the 1 mpg that I experienced would be solely due to switching to synthetic oil!

grantchstr · January 2004

My calculation is a simple one - Acquisition cost divided by years/months driven. By 2006 (15 years old) I am not counting on any residual value!

ruking1 · January 2004

If you do not count on residual value you might be in for a pleasant surprise! I sold a 14 year old 1987 TLC for 9k bought new in late 86 for 16k.

grantchstr · January 2004

Wow. That seems like a low new price for an 87, only $9K. The new price for the Fj80 only 5 years or so later was close to $30K.
But the Blue Book value for my vehicle (1991 with 108K) is only $4,950. Which is why I dont insure it by the way. I'd get nothing back.

coupedncal · January 2004

Correction: Ruking1 said he bought his '87 LC for 16K and sold for 9K.

In my opinion, that is an awesome resale value. Even when you consider inflation, that is still excellent. There isn't anything else out there that holds value like the LC. However, it seems like the price of new fj80 did shoot up a great deal after 1987. An increase from 16k to 32+ k in just four years is indeed steep.

blockislandguy · January 2004

Steelcruiser, if you posted on the Jeep Grand Cherokee or the LR Disco boards that you felt it necessary to change your ATF and both differential's fluid and check your drive shaft every 10K, everybody would comment on what pieces of junk these SUVs were etc. etc. Makes you wonder about the self-full filling expectation, chicken and egg question: LCs last a long time and don't depreciate because the folks that own them expect them to, can't afford to get stranded (in say, Africa) and so maintain them well and hence the world wide rep.

Living in New England I still chuckle over the great rep that 240 RWD Volvos have among academics for being good winter cars that are good for 200K before a valve cover comes off. An Intrepid or a Taurus, of all things, will do that same job a lot better and a lot longer.

Speaking of ATF fluid, do you use Redline Synthetic? If not, why not?

joeeblow1 · January 2004

Most of the Cruisers in the world are beat hard every day and not well maintained. Yet they still keep going. That's why they are popular.

steelcruiser · January 2004

block. I posted my own preferences and don't doubt that many don't "worry" about checking/changing/adjusting, tire rotations etc. like I do and their vehicles are just fine. I'm sure some would think I over do it.

My rationale is rather simple. LCs to me are and always have been, an investment in quality and I like to protect my investments.

Also, I don't buy one every 2 or 3 years, so I like to maintain mine for the long haul. . And I like to do the maintenance--sort of a hobby. At least I know it's done right or who to blame if it isn't!

Though I've put Redline in the TCase and diffs, haven't yet tried their ATF, but I'm thinking hard on it. How about you?

Joeblow1 I think you're right and that's why to those that know, nothing but a LC will do ;=)

grantchstr · January 2004

As well as my Fj80 I am one of those with an 87 Volvo - still going strong. As you can see I like to keep cars a long time! But the RWD Volvo could not get up the hill to my snowy driveway in Massachusetts.

e9999 · January 2004

I too would like to know how easy it is to put an 04 rear camera on an 03.
Any experience? just plug in or nightmare?
thanks
Eric

e9999 · January 2004

got some odd experiences with the Nav sys on our 03. Seems like it turns some of its functions off perhaps at erratic times. The manual says that you can't program destinations while moving but IIRC this may have happened while standing still too. Not sure that was indeed while stopped though, don't recall. And other menu items just stop working too.
Experience with this issue?

and pretty annoying you can't do some of the functions while moving, heck, not safe if the passenger does the input??? grrr...

thanks
Eric

e9999 · January 2004

can't find a sales brochure for the 03 anywhere. You know, the glossy thing with photos and descriptions of all the goodies.
Anybody got a copy or knows where to got one?
Electronic version fine too.
thanks
Eric

rleong · January 2004

I think I have a '03 LC brochure somewhere. I'm assuming you are referring to the ones you picks up at the dealer for free? Let me know what info you are looking for.

vavavavolvo · January 2004

Several things about the nav system were upgraded for '04, including the addition of the camera. I would be extremely suprised if it were possible to integrate the stock '04 camera with an '03 nav system display. There are at least two aftermarket rear display cameras available, of course they both require you to mount a display somewhere in the cabin.

blockislandguy · January 2004

Steelcruiser, I like the way you think (but I can't get over the initial LC buy-in).

RedLine ATF supposedly lowers the temp in the tranny fluid although I have no way of measuring this (although, interestingly, the 2004 Denalis do have a transmission temp gauge as standard equip.). I do know that in our small ragtag fleet of a Ford Pickup, two Jeep Grand Cherokee LTDs, a Jeep Grand Wagoneer, Volvo XC, and whatever else drifts in we've never, ever had a tranny problem out to 130K miles. We buy'em two years old, drain out all the old fluids and stuff them full of Mobil1 oil and filters, RedLineATF, premium air filters, and superpremium tires. Then we use them. Hard.

As a side note, I think that the LC owner base is going through the same changes that the BMW and Saab owner base went through about 10 years ago. That is, the kind of people who initiatlly liked the attributes of the BMW 2002 sedan or the old Saab 95's, no longer can afford or even like where BMW and Saab are today. Most of the folks I see driving late model LCs tend to put initials on their shirt pockets and after their name. Then they charge a couple of hundred bucks an hour for "professional services" and wonder why a tradesman with an equal investment has the nerve to charge $65.

wolstenholme · January 2004

I own a 03 TLC. Love the truck, chose TLC over LX because I prefer the silver look over wood. However I'm looking for brushed aluminum trim kit. Anyone had any experience?

steelcruiser · January 2004

Block- interesting comments on BMW and LC owner bases. I've had several BMWs over the years, including a 2002tii and a couple of heavily modified Alpina versions of other models

I would like to think that both BMW and Toyota are still building high quality, exceptionally capable vehicles. I also think that many who buy these vehicles (now) are totally unfamiliar or unaware of the tremendous history of either marque.

I can compare my earlier LCs to my '02, just as I can compare my earlier BMWs to the current offerings. Way back when 2002s and FJ40s were "undiscovered" the cult followings started--in fact there wasn't even a BMW of North America then. Hoffman Motors was the importer and I think the total # of units imported was about 15,000/yr in the early 70s. As you say, many of the customers that started the "movements" may have been priced out of the current market and are driving something else (Hondas?), but it's a business, and it just seems that the more options offered the more they sell?

While I think the 100 is an improvement in many areas over the 80 series, the refinement of it with the V8, VSC, soundproofing etc, has taken a bit of the edge from the LC. But, having driven cross country in the 100 I can tell you it's one sweet machine and I think that Toy did a good job of adding the luxo features the majority of folks want, without totally taming what the LC has been and stands for. Though I've modified my suspension and have a lift, I think the 100 gives away very little, if anything, to the 80 series in off road capabilities (I'm sure many will disagree with me and say that real LCs have solid axles, just as old time BMW people say that real BMWs have round tail lights).

I may not be 100% satisfied with the LC US offerings--I'd love to have another one with a solid front axle--but in the Luxo SUV catagory I think it's hard to beat.

I think BMW's direction is, well, different

Look at a 3.0cs v. the new 6 series coupe.

And I don't have initials on my shirt

vavavavolvo · January 2004

I didn't understand that last sentence about the tradesman having an "equal investment". In what?

blockislandguy · January 2004

vavavolvo, an MBA, CPA, JD, MD, etc. has invested in him/herself in advanced education. During that time they had educational costs (at hugely subsidized rates, e.g., medical school) and, perhaps, just perhaps, some lost income which they would call "opportunity costs". Far too frequently IMHO, they leave professional or graduate school and whine about the loans they took out to make this investment in their human capital.

The tradesman also has capital investments. These are the traditional investments made by a small business person. Machine tools, welders, computers, service vans, etc. etc. Clearly, a successful trades based business will have easily 200K in assets. Most, more. This is often more debt than a professional took on to purchase his assets.

One difference is that the traditonal small business person usually doesn't whine about his debt load as does the small business person whose assets are in human capital like an MD. And there is less a feeling of entitlement; he doesn't think that someone else should have given him his assets. Some of this is often reflected in consumer behavior: the "professional" once through with school has less of need for capital and might pop for a new TLC. The small business guy might say, gee, I could pick up one more 3/4 ton service truck for another crew AND a Yukon for me to do sales calls in to grow the business for the price of a TLC. (One could argue that a business person who buys a TLC either has a stagnant business into which no more capital should be deployed or has more cash flow than his business plan can keep up with.)

justjenn · January 2004

Just replaced the head gasket on my 91 land cruiser - broke the air flow meter in the process - any suggestions on rebuilding it or where to purchase used??

Thanks

steelcruiser · January 2004

Try a salvage yard?

joeeblow1 · January 2004

Though I've modified my suspension and have a lift, I think the 100 gives away very little, if anything, to the 80 series in off road capabilities (I'm sure many will disagree with me and say that real LCs have solid axles, just as old time BMW people say that real BMWs have round tail lights).

You're comparing a difference in tail lights to a difference in suspension design?

There is a large difference between independent and live axle suspensions with pros and cons to each design. For more than mild offroad, give me a live axle every time. Much easier to maintain and much cheaper to lift a live axle as well.

mobiweld · January 2004

I'd like to see pics of a modified and lifter LC if they're available.

steelcruiser · January 2004

I'm not sure how you concluded from my post that I was comparing round tail lights to IFS. I was responding to blockisland's post and comments on his feeling that customer bases for BMW have changed and that maybe the same thing is happening to the LC customer base.

To some long time BMW people (the round tail light set), the replacement of the 2002 with the 3series was a big mistake, just as live axle fans think Toy offering an IFS suspension on an LC is heresy.

My point(s) was that many who are buying, or leasing BMWs and LCs these days are probably unaware of the rich history of these vehicles and the cult followings they created. Some who had the early offerings may feel a bit betrayed". I think if you re-read my post you'll see that my preference would also be for a solid axle LC, but having owned live axle LCs and now an IFS LC, I don't really think the IFS models are any less capable for the BULK of off road use. Do I think that there are situations where I'd like to have a RFS , of course, but it seems to me that you're assessment of the IFS LC is that it isn't much good for any thing other than jumping speed bumps.

But, as I've already stated, these are my opinions based on my own experience. I agree with your points about the "ease" of raising a live axle v. IFS. Also, my 4WD needs are for snow, some ice, beach sand, and occasionaly some mud. I suspect your needs are much greater than mine.

I know others that have both an 80 and 100 and are pretty adamant that the 100 gives away nothing to an 80. There were a lot of sneers from 40 and 60 guys when the 80s came out......until they started seeing them on the trail. Maybe you've judged these newer LCs a little to harshly?

Mobi-hit me off line and I'll send you some pictures and explain the difference between the lift for the IFS LCs v. those for the solid axle ones.

fj100 · January 2004

http://www.pbase.com/roane10/galleries

CLick on each gallery for more pics.

Mine is the champagne one.

uzj100

mobiweld · January 2004

Is that an OME lift? From Slee Off-Road? What size BFG's?

fj100 · January 2004

Yes, OME Lift, which includes 2 rear springs and 4 shocks. For the front - Sway away torsion bars. I purchased these before Slee had his on torsion bars for sale. Yes, all from Sleeoffroad.com.

285/75 R 16 BFG ATs - About 33 inches. You can go to 315/75 R16 's (35's) with a few more adjustments.

uzj100

mobiweld · January 2004

Do the 285/75 R 16 BFG ATs - About 33 inches require the lift? Or will the meats clear without the lift? Thanks.

steelcruiser · January 2004

joeeblow1 · January 2004

I'm not judging anyone, and I don't have anything against the 100. I don't like IFS. For my type of wheeling, live axle is better. It's also much easier to work on a live axle rig.

Tail lights are not a functional item. A suspension change is major, and it represents a step in the softer direction. The 80 does better than the 40 and 60 offroad. Underneath the leather, it's a hard core rig.

Ask '86 and later minitruck owners who take their rigs offroad what they think of IFS. A live axle conversion is a very common operation these days.

joeeblow1 · January 2004

BTW I would own a 100 if I could afford it. It's just not my choice for an offroad rig.

mobiweld · January 2004

For crawling, most would agree with you. Those who have Hummers or do Score Baja-style racing will probably swear by the independant front & rear.

grantchstr · January 2004

"There is a large difference between independent and live axle suspensions with pros and cons to each design. For more than mild offroad, give me a live axle every time. Much easier to maintain and much cheaper to lift a live axle as well."

I have an Fj80, can some one fill me in a bit on the pros and cons of the axle I have and what I am missing, if anything?

hicaira · January 2004

Your FJ 80 has live (solid) front and rear axles. Simple pro: better wheel articluation for tricky off road situations = less likely to "hang" a wheel which, with open diffs is a good way to get stuck or, more commonly, drag low hanging parts over the rocks. Also, they are probably more reliable (IFS will take more maintainemce and will not go as long without major service - like new CV joints and boots).
Simple con: Road manners are a bit harsher and cornering (high speed especially) are not as good.

HiC

ironside7 · January 2004

Has anyone ever removed a dashboard in a 100 Series? If so, any tips on the process would be appreciated. I have an annoying buzzing sound emanating from the center of my dash (only when accelerating) that I need to fix pronto.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

grantchstr · January 2004

I requested that the K&N filters and Mobil synthetic be put in at my recent oil change - but my indy said that the addition cost (at least double or triple) would be way way over the fuel efficiency dollars saved.
Comments?

FYI: the front brake pads were down to the metal 25,000 after the previous change.

hank14 · January 2004

Using the Toyota repair manuals and info from this site, I proceeded to remove the instrument cluster to replace a non working "D" indicator light in the dash. It was relatively easy to get apart, but I could not get the cluster past the steering wheel, although it had been suggested that it could be done. I may try it another time, but don't know if I want to tackle pulling the steering wheel.

Is the buzz from the back of the dash rubbing against the windshield?

steelcruiser · January 2004

Grant. 25K for your front bads is pretty good wear. Plenty of folks with 80s get about half that. You may want to consider switching to TRD or similar pads. I upped my pad mileage from 30K to 50K when I did.

Some 80 owners are putting 100 pads on thier rigs. I think there's some modification needed though.

Maybe Idaho doug knows about this?

Toyota Land Cruiser

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