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The Current State of the US Auto Market
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Comments
...whereas recent GMs (Cruze I believe) tested much better but are showing worse reliability. Just think if we could combine the two.
Of course if there were >250K workers that were excess, then the reality was the auto market was bloated and overstaffed and needed trimming. It has happened to aerospace, it has happened to retail, it happened to airlines. No reason the auto market should be so special, really.
Not quite getting it why you're bringing up this hot button allegation again.
Posters have lamented in the past the lack of "balance" in postings. I was pointing out that balance can be interpreted in a number of ways.
As far as telling others here on the board what they are to say or to believe, I don't think it is a requirement of the Rules of the Road that someone believe and post in a specific belief manner.
I don't see any mention where posters are being told what to say or believe, did I miss something? That's an inflammatory remark that is unjustified.
Specifically, I don't believe anyone has to post that they like things about the imports just to satisfy a forum requirement.
Did somebody say it was a requirement to post things they like about imports? I must have missed it. There seems to be some stretching of the truth going on here.
"What is not balance in my mind is when some posters say only good about preferred makes, and only bad about other makes, ignoring other sides of both equations." \\
>Did somebody say it was a requirement to post things they like about imports?
"Well, the way I define balance is that any poster says positive and negative things about any make, with some measure of objectivity.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Effects of the Bailout on the U.S Economy
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's a rather optimistic opinion on how warranty claims would have been handled.
It's pretty clear that private sector investors would have been extremely reluctant to blindly accept that potential exponential costs.
Lots of companies enter bankruptcy so they can basically clear their liabilities (including warranties) and create a "clean slate" so that another company or investment group will buy/finance them.
I certainly don't think is was a given that warranties would have been carried forward without a huge government contribution making it a requirement.
"What is not balance in my mind is when some posters say only good about preferred makes, and only bad about other makes, ignoring other sides of both equations." \\
>Did somebody say it was a requirement to post things they like about imports?
"Well, the way I define balance is that any poster says positive and negative things about any make, with some measure of objectivity.
So glad to see you recognize that those were opinions and not some sort of commands to other posters. We wouldn't want anybody to misunderstand that.
In other news, an interesting article from Forbes, although I think a bit patronizing:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahelliott/2013/12/13/barra-at-gm-is-it-good-when- - -detroits-biggest-automaker-gets-a-woman-for-a-boss/
I'd make the link cleaner, but the link tools seem to be missing (along with emotorcons) these days.
I found this Bloomberg article on Akerson quite a bit better:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-10/akerson-led-gm-from-ipo-to-end-of-gover- nment-motors-.html
OK, I'm going to try and post here.
Look at what I saw when I went for a walk in my neighborhood a couple of days ago. It's a Caddy!
About the Cruze...funny that CR's Christmas-edition mag said nothing about the declining reliability mentioned earlier...only that they liked the car. Are their records on, ahem, 'reliability' being updated monthly now?
NICE!!!
When I drive through a couple local stores looking at potential new cars for me, I don't see Cruzes in the service area waiting for service beyond a minimal number which are likely oil change type maintenance. Same for the 8th generation Malibus.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Of the D3, only Ford/Lincoln made the IIHS Top Safety list.
@tlong, if case anyone doesn't know, you can click your "small" photo and it'll blow up almost as big as that Caddy. The driveway is barely big enough for it.
IIHS names 22 cars as Top Safety Pick Plus
Those passing all the test include:
Honda Civic hybrid
Mazda3 built after October 2013
Toyota Prius built after November 2013
Ford Fusion
Chrysler 200
Honda Accord 2-door
Honda Accord 4-door
Mazda 6
Subaru Legacy
Subaru Outback
Infiniti Q50
Lincoln MKZ
Volvo S60
Volvo S80
Mazda CX-5 built after October 2013
Mitsubishi Outlander
Subaru Forester
Toyota Highlander
Acura MDX
Mercedes-Benz M-Class built after August 2013
Volvo XC60
Honda Odyssey
Just 2 American brands on that list---why?
Good question--although I wouldn't pay a premium price for a car because it's on the list. I tend to glance over bragging about safety items in car's ads. Probably because I've driven 39 years and a lot of miles, with zero accidents.
True enough--the dynamics of "real world" accidents are so complex that you cannot call any car on earth "safe". Still, it is odd that so few American brands appear.
Last year, good or acceptable small overlap performance was required only for TOP SAFETY PICK+. Vehicles that lacked it could still earn TOP SAFETY PICK, without the plus, if they had good ratings in the Institute's other tests (see "Family cars trump luxury models in rigorous new crash test; top performance earns 13 cars 2013 TOP SAFETY PICK+," Dec. 20, 2012). For 2014 that's no longer the case. The higher award now recognizes vehicles that earn at least a basic rating for front crash prevention, in addition to meeting the TOP SAFETY PICK criteria. Besides good or acceptable small overlap performance, these include good performance in the longstanding moderate overlap front, side, roof strength and head restraint tests.
iihs.org/iihs/sr/statusreport/article/48/9/1
Now mfg's need to scramble to upgrade to that next level which is great, afaic.
Of course you do realize that this doesn't mean much, as you could still have that accident (and no, I'm not wishing that on anybody). I've also never had a significant accident in all of my driving years, but I still try to be careful -- and I know that while I consider myself a skilled driver, there's a lot of luck that enters into it. I've known at least two people who've died in auto accidents, through no fault of their own.
It's kind of a matter of degree I think. How much difference is there between 4 or 5 starts in a category. I'm an admitted simple minded type - give me 3 alternatives "good", "fair" or "fail". I think it makes the answers more clear cut.
Thumbed through a CR auto issue on the newsstands now, for display until January-something. For all the belly-aching about GM can't make a competitive product, I was surprised to see they rated the '13 (not even the revised '14) Malibu 2LTZ at 89 points, versus 78 for the Fusion Titanium model. Both have average reliability per their charts. That's a big spread. And they recommend the Malibu, as I predicted last year when a regular poster said then it was "Not Recommended" (not really true; it was not "Recommended", as opposed to "Not Recommended"--two different things in their world). The Fusion is recommended too. All Malibus are built in Kansas City; some Fusions are built in Mexico and others in Michigan. This all is certainly not the conventional wisdom out there. I still laugh at their reliability reporting though--'11 and '13 Cruzes 'much worse than average'; '12 average. I can see people saying "I'll buy a '12 but not a '13".
@uplanderguy, you'll like this one too. GM's reliability is rated higher in one recent study than oft touted Honda, although Toyota and Hyundai beats them out. Hyundai beats everyone out overall.
"This year's data is based on more than 151,000 specific repairs performed on model year 2003-'13 vehicles from October 1, 2012, to September 30, 2013.
The CarMD report, which compares the combined "check engine" repair incidents and costs, ranks the top 10 manufacturers, top 100 vehicles overall, top vehicles by category and the most common repairs by make."
2012 Toyota Camry, Hyundai Score in CarMD Reliability Study
"For all the belly-aching about GM can't make a competitive product, I was surprised to see they rated the '13 (not even the revised '14) Malibu 2LTZ at 89 points, versus 78 for the Fusion Titanium model. "
Fusion Sales YTD Nov. 2013 = 270,872
Malibu Sales YTD Nov. 2013 = 185,101
Looks like the Malibu is not competitive with the Fusion for some other reason than CR's score. Must be the fact that only one GM made it to the second list from IIHS.
_**Meanwhile, only one General Motors car, Chevrolet Spark, found a spot in the "Top Safety Pick" list, which was the second highest ranking after “Top Safety Pick Plus”. Also one vehicle from Volkswagen AG (VLKAY), namely Passat, made it to this secondary list. **_:)
If you equate popularity with quality, then, as mentioned before, you must consider McDonald's to be the finest hamburger on the market. Of course, perception lags reality, sadly. Personally, I like not being one of the crowd.
89 versus 78; both the top-line models--that is a significant difference by any yardstick.
No, only reality with an opinion. I understood from you how absurd CR's rating system is, by the way, now it is all of a sudden law. Interesting.
Sadly, Malibu is not understood by the McDonalds's crowd, let alone by the power of "One".
My complaint is about their technique of tabulating reliability records. I've felt that way for decades and decades...as long as I've been looking. It's wildly inconsistent.
Conversely, I think they can test a car as well as anyone. Why couldn't they? In fact, I could see less subjectivity of 'coolness' or whatever compared to the thirty-somethings that review at the car mags, but that's only a guess on my part.
I think one reason that the Ford Fusion might sell so well is that it really doesn't have much overlap from within the division. It's a midsized car and the Focus is clearly a compact. There's a definite step up in size when going from one to the other. But not so with Chevy. The Cruze, while marketed as a compact, is rather large for its class. And the Malibu is definitely on the low end of the midsized class (although supposedly the reshaped seats for 2014 help). So, I definitely see a lot of overlap, and potential for cross-shopping between the Malibu and Cruze.
Where I do see some overlap with Ford though, is with the Fusion versus the Taurus. While I consider the Fusion to be a solid midsized car, I just think the Taurus falls flat as a full-sized car. Its only real advantage over the Fusion IMO is the larger trunk. But I don't see any real advantage in interior room.
However, cars like the Taurus, and Impala, really aren't mass-market cars anymore, so I don't think either one is stealing that many sales from their midsized counterparts.
As for the 2014 refresh on the Malibu, I'm not sure I like it. It seems to have a bit of Korean influence, like it could be mistaken for a Kia or something. Not that that's a horrible thing, but I just think it loses a bit of brand recognition.
Also, on the subject of sales, if we just look at more recent months, how has the Malibu been stacking up to the Fusion? The 2013 Malibu did have a bit of a botched launch, with only the Eco model being offered at first. And, for awhile there were a lot of leftover 2012 Malibus that the new model had to compete with.
I liked the new Taurus when it came out, but I think it looks chunky now. I think it's not selling very well, although probably nothing in that size class is a top-seller. I still like the Impala and wish I had an excuse to buy one, but I'd worry about my wife putting bumps in it due to its size. LOL
I liked the new Taurus as well, at first. I was a bit disappointed when I sat in one though. It just seems to me that a car that size should be bigger inside. Interestingly, the older 500/Montego/Taurus, which was the same basic car I thought, seemed huge inside. That older model was just a bit short on legroom up front I thought, although the seat was high enough that I could still get fairly comfortable...sort of a truck/SUV height seat. But the back seat seemed almost limousine-like!
I like the new Impala, as well. I've been seeing one show up here at work, a champagne colored one with Maine plates on it. I wouldn't mind finding an excuse to buy one, myself, although I think I'd probably prefer a Charger. But, my 2000 Park Ave has been behaving itself lately, and I'm also finding that the older I get, the less money I want to spend on a new car.
Kind of a shame I'm not rich, so I could rationalize a Charger AND an Impala!
About the '14 Malibu--for all the talk of a 'refresh', it doesn't look very different to me! I think I've come to like the new front end a little better, only in that it seems to me there's more chrome, which I like (can't exactly remember what the '13 looks like in front by comparison). The '13 was definitely a botched launch. But like most things, people jump on the bandwagon and gang up, whether something is claimed to be a good by a magazine or not so good.
I've probably seen not enough new Dodge Darts on the road to count on one hand, but CR says it's "much better than average" in its first year. I wonder if andres3 has an opinion on that based on his Neon?
Actually, I do wish the Dart well.
I do like the additional chrome, which is a nice touch, but I just think the lower part of the grille has too many corners to it, which just seems a touch over-styled to me. But if I found the car to my liking otherwise, I wouldn't let that detail stop me from buying one.
I haven't seen very many Darts on the road, either. I kinda like them myself, except for a few details. For example, I think the car looks great, up to the B-pillar. But from the B-pillar back, it reminds me of an older Hyundai Elantra (thanks to TJC78 for first pointing that out...). I do like the taillight pattern on the Dart, though. I've sat in a few Darts, and was comfortable enough, but I still think in the end, I'd prefer something bigger.
"Check Engine" seems like a pretty narrow measure of repairs. A car could be very unreliable yet almost never report this condition, and vice versa. I'd call that a pretty idiotic study if I understand it correctly.
If defects aren't "weighted", the results can be very skewed. Both an 02 sensor and a bad catalytic will throw a CEL, but one might $250 and the other $1,750.
Won't a loose gas cap often give a "check engine" light?
I agree with Tlong...
_About the '14 Malibu--for all the talk of a 'refresh', it doesn't look very different to me
The '13 was definitely a botched launch_
The Malibu is pretty conservative in styling to me and I think that type of buyer leans toward larger sized vehicles. I wonder if the Malibu is capacity constrained in production volume? Until this year, that was a problem for the Ford Fusion.
Personally, Burger King makes a better burger but I prefer McDonald's fries.
I dunno. I'm starting to see a lot of Darts lately in the Philly area. I guess they started to catch on. Just saw a silver one today on my way back from the store.
In the era of electronically-controlled transmissions, problems there often set a CEL as well.
Personally, Burger King makes a better burger but I prefer McDonald's fries.
Lemko, I like Five Guys burgers and fries best, but at almost nine bucks for a small everything including drink (OK, their small sizes are big enough and more for me), sure is a lot of $$.
Ditto on the Five Guys from a taste perspective, but I can't help but feel my arteries clogging up when I'm eating there. They definitely give you your money's worth on the fries... A regular size will feed a family of 6...
They now have a "little fries" which is still PLENTY even for a big eater like me. Their original 'regular fries' was for at least two hungry construction workers! LOL
A little off-topic, but a friend of mine with a '96 Lumina they bought used, and an '08 Impala bought new, last night turned 222,222.2 miles in the Lumina and sent me a pic of the odometer. To his knowledge, neither the engine nor trans has been opened. Pretty neat.
"last night turned 222,222.2 miles in the Lumina and sent me a pic of the odometer. To his knowledge, neither the engine nor trans has been opened. Pretty neat."
That is pretty impressive. I think the Lumina was fairly reliable for the most part by that time, although I believe head gaskets and intake manifolds could be a trouble spot on the Chevy 2.8/3.1/3.4 block.
No doubt, but he says that while he's kept an eye on that, he hasn't done anything.
Saw a just-detailed '08 Malibu that, afaic, is the Best 'Bu since the '60's so far....despite what CR says!
That styling is better than the current one IMHO, although the interior of the new one is better I think. Only thing I don't like about our '11 is the very low passenger seat and we don't have power seat on that side.
"Only thing I don't like about our '11 is the very low passenger seat and we don't have power seat on that side."
Funny...that's the same complaint one of my grandmother's old-lady friends had about Grandma's '85 LeSabre! Must be a GM thang! Her point of reference, most likely, was her '75 Monte Carlo, which you'd think would be as low, if not lower. However, if my '76 LeMans is any indication, GM did a pretty good job with those '73-77 intermediates when it came to seat height/comfort/thickness. At least, it fits my butt pretty well!
One thing about an '08 Malibu that I'm very glad they changed immediately--I never liked that Saab-style marker light high on the front fender, behind the wheel opening. Clutters the styling IMHO!
andre, I wonder how an old lady ever closed the door on a '75 Monte Carlo! They were long and heavy in my memory!