Electric Vehicle Pros & Cons

larsb · December 2010

I test drove a Nissan Leaf on Sunday 12-5-10 in Tempe AZ at the Nissan Leaf Drive Electric Tour.

It was a VERY SHORT drive, only city streets, no highway testing allowed, unfortunately.

But my impression and the impressions of my impressionable kids:

Three Thumbs Up. Way up.

Pros:

1. Drives like a normal small sedan. Seats 5, with the back seat a LITTLE it cramped for 3 fast-food-addicted adults, but just fine for two people of virtually any normal size.

2. Quiet. Oh, Yes. Nothing other than a silent hum and the barely perceptible road buzz.

3. Comfy driver seat. Seats made of recycled plastic bottles, so the feel is a little odd, but nothing you can't get used to very quickly, I'd guess.

4. Plenty of ZIP. The immediately-available torque is 210 foot pounds, which is more than most family sedans. It will get up and scoot.

5. Lots of room in the "hatch boot" area. And rear seats fold down.

Cons:

1. I can't buy one yet.

2. You need a Home Charging Station. Charging from a standard 110V outlet takes 18 hours for a full charge.

3. Range limited to 75-130 miles.

More later..........

larsb · March 2011

This is a business model I knew would take off along with EVs. A way for "stranded" EV drivers to get recharged on the road for a fee.

This guy is going to charge $60 plus $3.50 per mile.

On the cutting edge of EV support needs

As electric cars gain momentum with consumers, two Phoenix entrepreneurs have developed a business plan focused on assisting stranded motorists who find themselves with dead batteries and want to avoid a time-consuming tow.

The newly formed company plans to use mobile chargers to replenish spent batteries, which will allow drivers to get their vehicles home or to another charging station.

apeweek · March 2011

The article says "it's a lot easier to run out of electricity than it is to run out of gas."

I don't agree. Running out of gas is a very abrupt experience, while running out of electricity is not. Your EV may slow down, it may go into "turtle mode", but abruptly stop? Not really. There's plenty of time to strategize before a tow truck is needed.

As a hobbyist EV driver, I have a couple of strategies for running low on juice. I have been in situations like this when forced to take unexpected detours, for example.

The first trick is to stop somewhere for lunch or coffee and ask the restaurant manager if I could please plug in for an hour.

The second strategy, if I'm close to my destination, is just to pull off the road and wait for a few minutes. When you use a lot of current from a battery quickly (which EVs do), the ions (in the electrolyte) nearest the battery electrodes get depleted first - when you run down a battery fast, the battery is likely not really dead. Wait a bit, and ions in the electrolyte further away will migrate toward the electrodes - and you can drive again. You may find that as much as 20% of the battery's capacity is still available by doing this.

This is one of the reasons that "mileage remaining" gauges in EVs can present confusing readings. If you stop for a while, or drive slowly, your 'remaining miles' can actually increase.

larsb · April 2011

Coolness.

http://www.smartplanet.com/technology/blog/thinking-tech/recharge-an-electric-ca- r-without-plugging-in/6814/

Refueling an electric car may someday be as simple as finding a parking spot.

Siemens, in cooperation with BMW, has developed a technology that allows electric cars to be recharged wirelessly. The system, presented at the 2011 Hannover Messe tech show, will undergo testing in Berlin as part of a project funded by the German Environment Ministry.

Similar to a technology being tested by Google, the experimental charging stations supply power to the battery through a process known as inductive charging in which energy is transferred from a ground-based electromagnetic coil to one attached to the bottom of the car. Simply pulling in to park the vehicle brings the two parts close enough to induce charging.

Siemens says on its web site that the charging stations can be easily incorporated into practically any setting, making them nearly invisible and effectively protecting them against vandalism and wear and tear. The cars can also be recharged at 90 percent the efficiency of plug-in stations.

This means that existing parking lots can be retrofitted with the technology so that car owners have the convenience of being able to leave their cars unattended while it gets juiced up. And if the system is widely adopted, drivers wouldnt need to constantly recharge at designated refueling stations.

Testing will begin a May with a 3.6 kilowatt prototype, with more trials slated for June to determine which improvements are needed to allow the system to work in real-life settings.

larsb · April 2011

First drive of the RAV4 EV being built with Tesla:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110414/CARREVIEWS/110419943

By MARK VAUGHN on 4/14/2011
For the most part, we're still looking off into the future when it comes to EVs. Right now, the only mass-produced electric car you can actually buy from a major manufacturer is the Nissan Leaf. But next year, the market will be crawling with them. Toyota will have three if you count the plug-in: the Scion iQ, the plug-in Toyota Prius and the Toyota RAV4 EV.

We had a long-term plug-in Prius prototype a few months ago. We haven't driven the iQ yet, and this week, we got to drive a five-mile suburban loop in a RAV4 EV prototype. We found it just about ready for market right now.

But we're easier to please than Toyota, apparently. The production version of the RAV4 EV won't arrive for another year, but the prototype was so close to production standards that other car companies could learn a lot from Toyota.

Both Tesla and Toyota are hoping to learn from each other in this partnership. Tesla, which makes the powertrain for this battery-electric car in a partnership with Toyota, is hoping to learn about manufacturing. Toyota, for its part, is hoping to learn about electric cars and also about how to make a corporate decision in less than two years and with fewer than 16 layers of management, each layer of which is desperately trying to preserve its job and not rock the boat.

It could be a marriage made in heaven, or at least in Fremont, the northern California town where these things will be made.

The drivetrain shares a lot of componentry with the Tesla Roadster, including the power control module that sits topmost in the "engine" bay and the lithium-ion battery packs that ride slung beneath the front and rear seats. Specific parts of the powertrain will be different from those in the Tesla Roadster, but we will get details on those closer to production.

The prototype RAV4 EV weighs about 3,860 pounds, which is 220 pounds more than the gasoline-powered RAV4. The extra weight comes from the lithium-ion batteries carried in two modules beneath the front and rear seats. Toyota says there are 37 kilowatt-hours of "useable" power in those batteries, no doubt referring to the top 80 percent of capacity, below which engineers prefer not dipping in order to preserve battery life. So we could probably round up battery capacity in this rig to 40 kilowatt-hours, which is substantial.

That battery is about 50 percent bigger than the one in the Leaf, and Toyota says to expect 100 miles-plus of "real-world range" despite the RAV4's heavier curb weight.

There was a fairly high amount of regenerative braking dialed into the RAV, which really slowed the car as soon as we lifted off the accelerator. But the production version will likely have far less regen. When we suggested a thumb wheel to adjust regen on the fly, so that you could coast or decel depending on what was most efficient, we didn't get any takers among the Toyota techs present. So don't look for that feature come 2012.

There was no output listed for the motor on the prototype. The Tesla Roadster's motor is 185 kilowatts, but a production SUV would almost certainly have a lower peak output than that. We'll find out soon enough.

Despite the extra weight of the electric version, Toyota claims a 0-to-60-mph time of 9.3 seconds for the RAV4 EV, which is only a tenth slower than the smaller, lighter Nissan Leaf we just tested. Though we brought our test gear to the drive, there was nowhere on the route flat enough and straight enough to try a 0-to-60 run of our own. But it felt about that quick, maybe quicker.

The RAV4 EV felt perfectly fine accelerating away from stoplights and in pseudo-passing maneuvers. Toyota lists top speed at a more-than-adequate 100 mph.

Packaging the batteries under the floor left the luggage space unencumbered in back, one of the advantages to this relatively large vehicle. And seating for five was perfectly up to the standards of the class.

So here we sit, at least a year ahead of the coming wave of electric cars and plug-in hybrids from manufacturers all across the board. For those car buyers eager to recharge instead of refuel, that's a long way off. But the early indicators are all pointing to nicely finished, entirely useable, real-world "cars."

plekto · April 2011

I bet it will be a very short list of models that you can actually buy outright and not be forced to lease.(with no ability to buy it at the end)

larsb · July 2011

Coolness:

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/07/18/study-electric-vehicles-90-less-costly-to-r- efuel-than-gasoli/

According to Northeast Group (NG), an energy sector research and consulting firm based in Washington D.C., it's "always cheaper to recharge an electric vehicle than to fuel a conventional gas-powered vehicle." In fact, NG claims that in some scenarios, charging a plug-in costs one-tenth as much as fueling a conventional vehicle. Here's NG's exact wording:
In all scenarios we studied, the costs to recharge an electric vehicle were cheaper than fueling a gasoline-powered car. In the most likely electric vehicle charging scenarios, costs were approximately one-tenth to half the costs of fueling a conventional vehicle with gasoline.
NG briefly justifies its claim, stating:
Electric utilities in the U.S. are encouraging the adoption of electric vehicles by rolling out electric vehicle-specific tariffs to their customers. These tariffs take different forms, ranging from time-of-use (TOU) tariffs to flat rate tariffs. With the TOU tariffs, customers receive cheaper rates when they charge during off-peak times. With the flat rate tariffs  i.e. $40 per month  all charging is typically covered.
The study, titled "United States Smart Grid: Utility Electric Vehicle Tariffs," (pdf order form) includes a breakdown of the electric vehicle tariffs from ten utilities in six different U.S. states (California, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Oregon and Texas) and proves (again) that plug-ins are remarkably cheap to charge.

[Source: Northeast Group | Images: Copyright 2011 Jeff Glucker / AOL]

goldenfuel · August 2011

EVs face significant battery-related challenges:

Driving range. Most EVs can only go 150 miles (or less) before recharginggasoline vehicles can go over 300 miles before refueling.

Recharge time. Fully recharging the battery pack can take 4 to 8 hours.

Battery cost: The large battery packs are expensive and usually must be replaced one or more times.

Bulk & weight: Battery packs are heavy and take up considerable vehicle space.

Researchers are working on improved battery technologies to increase driving range and decrease recharging time, replacement frequency, weight, and cost. These factors will ultimately determine the future of EVs.

larsb · August 2011

USA drivers are spoiled and selfish is one problem. :shades:

Well, a huge part of it is that people need to understand that RIGHT NOW, an EV is unlikely to function in most families as a PRIMARY CAR.

It can serve a HUGE number of families, as is right now, as a second car, a "commuter" car.

The fact remains that the average round-trip commute is 46 minutes.

Almost everyone who falls under that category, and who drives to an office with less than 4 people, could use a Volt or a Leaf for that commute, right now.

The high cost is a problem, as is the charging requirement.

Many commuters (especially in big urban areas) live in apartments, condos, or in a living situation which does not give them the option for overnight charging.

Virtually anyone in the USA who:

1. Owns a home (or has access to a garage or a carport), and
2. Can afford a $350-$400 car payment, and
3. Has a commute of less than 100 miles round-trip, and
4. Travels to work with 4 or fewer people (including the driver), and
5. Does not need to haul or pull something

could use a Leaf or a Volt right now for their commute.

That's a BIG number.

The EV marketers need to do a better job of getting the word out.

Battery technology needs to improve also.

ev_owner · September 2012

Well, here it is 5 years after the discussion started. And EV's are taking hold! The i-MiEV that was referred to above as starting in 2009, DID. Mitsubishi created them for the Japanese market. It's now late 2012 and the Mitsubishi i-MiEV is available for sale in other markets including Australia, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Switzerland, UK, and US. It's amusing that when a car is rumored to have a sticker price of $45,000 people said that was too high. But if it was around $30,000 they would be in line to buy one. Now that the reality is a sticker price around $30,000 people (not sure if it's the same ones or not) are saying if it cost $20,000 they would get one. Well, I thought the sticker price was reasonable and I bought one. It does help that there is a $7500 federal tax credit and a $3000 IL state rebate. (So maybe I fall in with the $20,000 crowd after all.)

dwhatshername · September 2012

PF_Flyer · November 2012

See the story about the 16 Fisker Karmas that burned up in NJ after being flooded in salt water because of Hurricane Sandy? At $100K a pop, that's serious money!

motorbolt · October 2013

i've seen reports today that http://bit.ly/16cN5kD have been part of a project to improve electric cars. It looks promising their using the car's body panels as a battery! that will save space and provide more power
.. just what i like to hear..

Anyone else think it's a great idea?

motorbolt · October 2013

PF_Flyer · December 2013

@motorbolt said:
i've seen reports today that http://bit.ly/16cN5kD have been part of a project to improve electric cars. It looks promising their using the car's body panels as a battery! that will save space and provide more power
.. just what i like to hear..

Anyone else think it's a great idea?

While it might be an interesting idea in terms of using space, I can see two issues. One, given current battery technology, I'm not sure how much power thin batteries that double as body panels are going to get you.

And two, the obvious, wouldn't that expose the batteries to damage from impacts with all sorts of stuff?

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imTravisK · January 2022

EV will be the trend in the future. I fully support EV because it is eco-friendly. However, the battery will be an issue that we need to pay attention to such as how will the discarded battery be handled, will it affect the environment or human health?

bhill2 · July 2022

I am very concerned about having sufficient electricity to power a large number of electric cars. The move from fossil fuel to renewable energy is going to stress the availability of enough energy to provide even present needs; much less a large increase in needs. All of the proposed renewable energy sources have significant downsides; ecological damage, unsightliness, and so on associated with increased use. Is nuclear generation technology at or near solving the problems that have made it problematic? I think it is the renewable energy source capable of handling the increasing demand. Any ideas or comments?

kyfdx · August 2022

bhill2 said:
I am very concerned about having sufficient electricity to power a large number of electric cars. The move from fossil fuel to renewable energy is going to stress the availability of enough energy to provide even present needs; much less a large increase in needs. All of the proposed renewable energy sources have significant downsides; ecological damage, unsightliness, and so on associated with increased use. Is nuclear generation technology at or near solving the problems that have made it problematic? I think it is the renewable energy source capable of handling the increasing demand. Any ideas or comments?

They don't move from fossil fuel, until they have renewable energy to replace it. Until that happens, we aren't running out of fossil fuels.

The electricity grid is set up to provide all the electricity needed at peak demand. Most electric cars charge overnight in your garage at non-peak hours.

Likely to take 15-20 years to convert a majority of vehicle ownership to electric. That's plenty of time for utilities and government to figure it out.

EfrainCooke · March 4

One of the biggest pros for me is the fuel price, and also the maintenance price, they are much lower than with a normal cars, of course I understand that changing the batteries is a huge cost, but I am referring to new cars. One of the biggest cons are the millage and the fact that EV cars are mostly only made for in town use, going on a long distance with it may be problematic, also the residual value of such cars is low because of the battery life.

edmunancy · March 11

Understanding the good points and bad sides of electric cars is very important when you want to decide if you should start using this new kind of car. Electric cars have many benefits like being good for saving energy, not harming the environment too much, and helping save money, but there are also problems like how far they can go before needing a charge, not enough places to charge them everywhere yet, and the cost that comes with their batteries.

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