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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Comments
It is telling the Accord (/Camry) hybrids take 11+ years to B/E against the Passat TDI. Most hybrid enthusiasts like to leave out "like for like" comparisons. If one insists on going 80 mph, one best should paste ones' car in the SLOW lane, i.e., #4/4 lanes. I do 85 mph and I am routinely passed by CHP and Sheriff and local LEO's using highways (not to mention the GAGGLE of cars in #'s 1/2/3 lanes). So getting 50/42/31-33 mpg @ freeway speeds are fine with me.
I think things are further complicated by the "computer" " I zation" of the cars' "amenities". It is a further "go figure" as the emphasis seems to be on doing less miles, individually and over all (yearly) aka less hours, so therefore, there is less need to stay in the car. In that sense, the "go figure ness" of it all it drives UP the prices and for nonessential "STUFF" and drives DOWN reliability and durability. Again the assumption is AVG yearly American drivers of 12,000 to 15,000 miles.
So for example, I would HATE to get into a serious accident and hurt or kill someone else while DISTRACTED texting the kids to stay safe crossing the street. So for example to this day, I do not do ANY phoning, while I am driving (behind the wheel). I will only do EMERGENCY CP stuff, 911 , etc. It isn't that I don't know how or can comfortably do it, I can.
In addition, I really can do without the LOADS of amenities they now consider "standard equipment."
Just looking at the top selling mid sized SUVs. The Explorer is number one and they are getting an average of 19.7 MPG mostly highway. The number two best selling is the Jeep Grand Cherokee which is getting an average of 18.7 MPG. The 3 Grand Cherokee diesels are averaging over 25 MPG. Which means you can save on average about 25% on fuel. I can't find any places in the USA where diesel is 25% more than RUG. Buy a GLK250 Bluetec and nothing in the class is even close.
seems that arithmetic is not a way to win non-VW diesel customers nowadays. locally gas is 3.27 and diesel about $4. except for VWs, diesel vehicles are 10s of thousand$ more than cross-shoppable gassers.
getting paid back the extra upfront diesel-cost thousands over decades is not reasonable for those without extra piles of money.
as much as i'd enjoy a bigger vehicle, i'll probably end up cross-shopping VW diesel (and gas) wagons and subarus in a year. all with stickshifts...
boo to diesels!
sincerely,
the fox and the grapes
Your obsession with manual transmissions does limit your choices in both gas and diesel vehicles. It also eliminates most of the luxury offered in the better SUVs. I don't mind driving a manual transmission. I just don't see any advantage over the modern 7-8 speed auto transmissions. As far as cost to own, VW does offer comparable choices in both gas and diesel to compare. For example the VW Touareg VR6 Lux is about $3000 less than the TDI Lux that I bought. I was very lucky to buy right at the end of the 2013 MY and bought my Touareg TDI for about $3000 less than the TMV for the V6 gas model now. For the sake of argument say I did pay the full $3000 more for diesel. I am after 7600 miles averaging 26.6 MPG. The T-Reg gas model averages 20 MPG if you are lucky. And that is on Premium gas. So on just cost of fuel it would take 5.6 years to make up the $3000 difference.
Now here comes the real kicker: After only 2 MYs the 2012 VW Touareg TDI Lux with 25k miles certified is listed for $46k. The 2012 Touareg VR6 Lux with 18k miles certified can be bought for under $40k. After only two MYs the $3000 premium has doubled to $6k more on resale. Add the $536 per year I save on fuel and after only two years of ownership I will be about $7000 ahead of the poor guy that thought he was saving $3 grand. Not to mention the far superior driving pleasure & range with the diesel over the gasser.
When my 4 years of free maintenance and service including brakes draws nigh, I will likely trade for a new one. That eliminates all the hand wringing about VW reliability. Looks like a 3 year old TDI Lux with 48k miles should bring about $43k. Glad I did not settle for less than the best.
To me, the mantra has been pro CHOICE in the market place. It is almost undeniable there are more oems and more diesel choices and diesels. So I am ok with (you) anyone choosing something else, albeit NON diesel, non VW, hard to find stick shifts with other OEMS.
I do agree when you say that most buyers OVERWHELMINGLY chose gassers EVEN when they know/ see the cost per mile driven fuel for gassers are more than like model diesels. ( 95% gassers vs less than 5% diesels, half of which are currently light trucks, aka which are not light for "light trucks".) An interesting thing is the 12 Passat set a mpg/tank @ 84 mpg+ at 5 mph under the speed limit (65 mph). I have read in Toyota Prius threads of folks going 57 mph and less and happy as clams to get 50/51 mpg. They are no where NEAR like for like cars.
Indeed if you get a gasser, you will be another anecdotal example. VW as another example sell app 75% of its yearly production, gassers. However this is up from the 03 Jetta TDI of less than 5%. To your example "wagons", you surely must know the JSW (Jetta Station Wagon) is fully 85% TDI diesel !!! ??? It also offers stick shift as "STANDARD". Resale values are very very good.
However, any number of other metrics and its math does NOT back up your assertion about diesels and/or VW customers, even as it is your intention to choose/cross shop other than a diesel (in any other OEM), AND specifically NOT a VW. Since you have been following this thread for a while, I am sure you know what metrics they are. One really has to say "ALL the best ""
This is also despite that VW is one manufacturer that offers stick shifts in almost all the models, while most other oem's are limiting the choice OF stick shifts. Another example is the complaint about Subaru CVT's "rubber banding" effect, despite it probably being one of the most well made passenger vehicles in/on the US markets.
**There is another good choice for the oil burning afficianado. **
_GM Engineer Drives 2013 Chevy Cruze Diesel 900 Miles On One Tank
Chevy's Cruze diesel is one of the more significant cars arriving this year.
With a 15.6 gallon gas tank, that 46 mpg should be enough to get you over 700 miles at highway speeds--717, to be precise. But one GM engineer has gone even better, with an astonishing 900 miles on a tank.
Reversing the math, that works out at just shy of 58 mpg, if she ran the tank dry--so potentially a little more.
How on earth do you get that from a Cruze Diesel? According to Tessa Baughman, the energy engineer in question, it simply involved traveling at 5 under the speed limit on a family visit to Arkansas.
Even on the return journey, with more traffic, she achieved over 800 miles to a tank - just over 51 mpg._
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084119_gm-engineer-drives-2013-chevy-cruze-diesel-900-miles-on-one-tank
Needless to say, it would be an interesting comparison for that same person to do the same trip in a 13/14 Chevrolet Cruze gasser and to compare and contrast the results with posted the numbers posted for the diesel.
So the context, fuelly.com shows the 14 Cruze's @ 29.1 mpg/40.8 mpg AVERAGE or diesels posting 11.7 mpg better or 40.2% average BETTER. So, say you do 2 cycles of 100,000 miles. That is 6,873 RUG gals used vs 4,902 D2 gals used or=1,971 gals SAVED. @ current RUG prices ($3.29) $6,485 SAVED, in terms of gals x 40.8 mpg= 80,417 miles more commuting. So in effect this one person can exceed the fully.com average by another 42% !!!!!!!!!
I think it is best to keep it all in perspective. At our current price for RUG in CA of $3.45 per gallon. Diesel would have to be $6.12 to be comparable to what I was spending to drive my gas SUV. The largest gap I have seen is what it is currently. By Summer they will be about the same price here. Even at $2.75 per gallon that some are seeing, diesel would have to be close to $5 per gallon. Looking at my cross country route to Indiana, I see diesel from $3.43 to $3.59. RUG would have to be under $2 to be cheaper than driving a diesel. With an easy 700 mile range it gives you so many more choices. A very preliminary observation tells me that Shell and Phillips diesel give me the best mileage. I will know more after my next CC trip. Lowest mileage was using Safeway diesel.
Spotted an .84 cent per gallon discrepancy yesterday. Locally it's fifty cents.
Highest priced diesel in San Diego is $4.69, same station selling RUG for $4.49. RUG spread today in San Diego is $3.37 to $4.49. Diesel spread from $3.81 to $4.69. Plus or minus 10 cents for using a CC.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-39-push-americans-buy-diesel-cars-working-195528646.html
Interesting take on success of 13 YTD diesels
VW's Push To Make Americans Buy Diesel Cars Is Working Really Well
Business Insider By Alex Davies
Another "in context" article
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/consumer-spending-vehicles-forecast-time-high-december-004500962.html
So if the projections come to pass, VW with 557,000 (13YTD Nov) have MORE than app 4.35% of a projected 12.8 M vehicle 2013 yearly sales/marketshare.
Caught an episode of Coronation St today (I have a friend in England and she asks me at times if I watch it so she can compare notes) and there was this scene where some regulars had rented an S Class to attend a wedding on set. Haha..MB wudda been squirming a bit their seats if they caught it..the producers musta had the microphone for the scene literally right under the hood. It was so loud it made it sound almost like a Mac truck..lol That said though, it did still sound quite tight and precise...the way that MB diesel sixes do sound. Although..not to be too hard on their 4s cuz they too sound good. The only Asian 4 cyl diesel I've heard that sounds anywhere near as precise as a MB was my old 3.4 l NA Land Bruiser's engine. What a monster it would have been had they turbo'd it.
Not to leave VW out in the cold here tho..cuz their TDI (and previous, FTM) 4 cyl sounded better than my Isuzu 2.2 or Toyota 2.4 ever did.
My fav though remains MB for precise and tight sound. They're the Cat™ among cars.
I can tell you, if MB had brought the ML250 Bluetec to America I would have jumped on it. I like both the ML and the GLK. Just for cross country I wanted the space of the ML. To get the ML350 Bluetec equipped like the VW Touareg TDI Lux would have been a LOT more money. Maybe Mercedes will offer both in this 3rd World country. The 250 Bluetec has more than enough power for the ML. The ML250 Bluetec sold in the UK gets great mileage..
As I started to read your post, I was thinking what you ended up saying here: The 250 Bluetec has more than enough power for the ML.
I continue to be amazed at the torque figure of that 2.1 twin turbo. And yes, it certainly has enough to power for the weight of the ML or the Touareg if VW were to copy whatever MB has done with little monster motor. Of course it wouldn't have the almost giggle inducing acceleration when merging or two-lane passing, that the VW T with the six has but nonetheless it wouldn't even be close to being the slowest on the road either.
This past summer I was in my friends '12 ML with 4 (fairly big) guys. Three of us well over 200lb each. It was a boy's w/e reunion..(was a great w/e) and when tromping down..not floored mind you, but just somewhat aggressive enough for it to kick down into 4th at about 55, my gosh that thing would just pull like a freight train. Plus it had an incredible sound system. I'm still green
It also had a presence that seemed to flow from the outside parking lot view, into the interior that created this feeling of being really really safe if anyone were to cell-phone their way into our lane unexpectedly. I would imagine the VW T must evoke a similar confidence compared to...say...a Traverse? or some other such similarly weighted vehicle.
Yesterday, as I was backing out of a space in town I looked to my right and (up..waay up) and darned if there wasn't a Seqouia sitting there towering down on me. It was a rare sight. Hardly ever see them around here. Those things are big! No wonder yours was as thirsty as it was. In a way..it's a bit shocking the thing did as well as it did really.
I was basing my opinion on the several reviews of the ML250 Bluetec slated for US delivery.
Though Mercedes-Benz originally intended to introduce new four-cylinder diesel versions of the E-Class, GLK-Class and M-Class in the U.S. for 2014, it now seems that one of those models may not arrive on our shores after all.
The tri-star automaker has decided to indefinitely delay the U.S. launch of the ML250 BlueTec, according to a Car and Driver report. The oil-burning 'ute remains a possibility for the 2015 model year, although it's equally likely that Mercedes will simply decide to can plans to bring it stateside altogether.
The ML250 was expected to use the same 190 horsepower, 369 lb-ft of torque 2.1-liter turbodiesel four-cylinder found in the GLK250 BlueTEC and E250 BlueTEC. Mercedes never clarified whether the ML250 would replace or supplement the existing ML350 BlueTEC, which utilizes a 3.0-liter turbodiesel V6 with 240 horsepower, 455 lb-ft of torque and fuel efficiency of 20 city/28 highway mpg.
Several factors could explain Mercedes' hesitance to launch the ML250.
The ML350 BlueTEC has been a decent success for Mercedes, accounting for roughly 15 percent of total ML sales in the U.S., and the ML250 might steal a significant amount of volume from the higher-profit six-cylinder diesel model. Depending on pricing, the ML250 could also be positioned right on top of the GLK250 BlueTEC, causing further sales cannibalization.
In essence, it may be a case of too many models for too small of a niche.
By Nat Shirley
Friday, Jun 14th, 2013 @ 5:38 pm
The Sequoia is big for sure. Not nearly as big as my 1998 Suburban, with far less usable space. That beast generally got 12-13 MPG mixed driving. And one memorable tank at 17 MPG on a trip through the Sierras. The Sequoia was plusher and better riding than the Suburban. Neither was even close on acceleration to any of the diesel offerings. I am sure even the GLK250 Bluetec would Get to 60 MPH faster and easily beat them 30-70 MPH. I do miss the extra room for stuff while traveling. However nothing else is close. The Touareg is faster, quieter, better handling and riding by far. I don't miss either one now. Here is a British review of the ML we are not going to get. Can you imagine the ML getting 37 MPG US combined?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/review-mercedes-benz-ml-250-bluetec-1478087
What I like the best are barriers and expectations are being broken down and exceeded. Probably my favorite is the 30% or more diesel mpg advantage over RUG/PUG and taser/ hybrid.
So for example, 369 # ft of torque for a 2.1 L 4 cylinder (let alone diesel) was literally unheard of, a very short time ago. Of course, a twin turbo was a rarified outlier. Both (under the MB nameplate) are game changers.
Now I really LIKE the 3.0 L 6 cylinder TDI with 8 speed A/T (dare I say robust and bulletproof- Audi/VW/Porsche) . Again, in the short past, 406 # ft of torque was in the SUPER CAR leagues.
It almost goes without saying the 31 to 33 mpg on (SOS DD) mountain road trips (30 mpg currently for this tank full in this slough) to 39.8 mpg MPG is not hard to take also.
Aren't these 8 speed automatics mostly the ZF unit that has become very popular in all kinds of vehicles? From the (Dodge) RAM to the Audi A6 to the Bentley Continental this tranny is very popular and is highly rated for perfomance as well.
That is correct. ZF is indeed one competitor, the other (for VW) Aisin. I read in passing that Dodge has a license from ZF. GM is resurrecting an A/T plant (Ohio?) to ramp up for an 8 speed A/T surge.
Right now, Dodge's 9 sped A/T is both not cost effective and needs some to a lot of tweaking. Another article I read in passing are plans for more speeds, 9,10,11,12? in the A/T.
"Better transmissions " for the mpg grail hunt is indeed part of the equation, albeit more expensive. I do understand a lot of gassers use the CVT. Some examples that come to mind are Prius, Subaru, Accord. I have heard complaints across the spectrum about the "rubber band" effect. I really do not know the mpg advantage over say a 6 speed A/T.
Anecdotally, the 8 speed A/T is pretty seamless and I am pretty impressed with it over all. I still have to think about it when I am in the "manual" shift gate. It promises to be robust (627 # ft capacity for a 406# ft TDI) and durable. ( I will be REALLY impressed @ 500,000 miles)
The 8 speed in the Touareg is an Aisin. Very conservatively built and designed too apparently. Probably end up being bullet-proof with the 3.0l TDI. I have read here that it's a wonderful shifting tranny, not busy but responsive, smooth and smart. I have heard that the ZF (so far) has similar impressive comments when used in the new Rams. (or is it a ZF design but is actually blood rooted as the old Torque Flite? ...I've read both versions).
@crkyolfrt
Tangent, but can't help but give a thumbs up to the only OTHER person I've seen that has had a ST1300 and a Majesty. Had a 06 black ST ABS, and a 05 blue Majesty. See you around.
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
Interesting, tifighter. I still have both. Can't bring myself to part with the ST but a pinched nerve in my back has made it harder and harder to actually get on the thing, hence why I bought the scooter. As you know, the little 395cc has a lot of heart. I do miss the ability to shift down tho for doing corners. I really thrash the little bugger tho, altho rear unsprung weight from so much weight being hung all on those two mediocre rear springs, makes for quite a hard kick on my poor ol' back on some of the roads around here. Jumping on the ST though after a month on the scooter, makes for some renewed adrenaline rushes.
I have the first year, an 03.. has the power W/shield and ABS like yours. And I must say, the ABS system with the linked brakes is a really really good system. Better than many of the earlier BMWs apparently. I have felt it only once, and it was very confidence inspiring. I'm HUGE believer in ABS for bikes. More so than on a cars frankly. They're quite simply potential T-Bone savers in the wet. My VFR had the linked, but no ABS. It was the last of the gear-driven cams gen.
Sounds like you no longer have either bike?
edit..I was going to post a pic but can't seem to find the 'attachment' button anywhere now. Maybe it's not part of an edit capability?
It never ceases to amaze me how many common-sense powertrain options are available for so many vehicles in the EU. What we have here in comparo, almost makes us 3rd world to them
And yes..I (and anyone else who already drives a recent heavy 4x4 diesel equipped SUV type) could imagine such an incredible mileage figure on such a heavy vehicle as the ML with that little 2.1. It's incredibly capable. I sure hope it ends up having great longevity potential though, since it really must be putting out close the max torque that size block can handle. There's only so much room in there for main bearings and beef.
Looks like you are right. All you get in the Edit mode is the Image button, which means your photo would have to be hosted somewhere. I recommend imgur.com.
But wasn't that one of the new features the new site was suppose to have? I recall being able to on the Vanilla site. Whatever happened to that site, btw? Did this one just replace it and all content in it is lost now?
I do like the smooth purr of the Bluetec in my car, especially once it is warmed up. Although I am very curious about the 4cyl unit - almost as much power, more efficient, lighter. Might see a small handling improvement, but perhaps with a small increase in NVH (which I don't mind, but the average non-traditionalist MB buyer might).
At this exact moment, diesel might only work for heavier expensive cars that require premium, though. My local Chevron has RUG 3.29, PUG 3.59, diesel 3.99.
Almost? We can all thank the EPA powertrain qualification rigamarole for much of this, and the California Air Resource Board for the rest. There are dozens of powertrain combos, mostly diesel, available elsewhere in the world that we'll never see here.
Someone somewhere thinks this is a good thing.
I hear ya..
The test platform had a lot of stuff enabled to see how it worked. The "real" site got rolled out with fewer options to try to avoid glitches and ease us all into it. Once we get a good handle on how members and guests are using this place, we may implement some more plug-ins. The test platform reverted to in-house access only.
Back at the hospital with the MIL tonight. Gas popped .14 cents but the one diesel place is hanging at $3.76 so the differential there is down to .37 cents. The cheap gas place is still running at $3.15 for RUG and I need gas, but the lines were nuts. Small station and it was "rush hour". Most other diesel stations are at $3.99.
[edit, just got another tank before they went up to match everyone else.
]
Sorry to hear about the MIL, Steve
Poor Mrs. Steve must be stressed too..
Thanks and yeah, it's tough getting old. The Subaru has been getting a workout with all the snowy roads; luckily the whole drive this afternoon was in "daylight".
If anything though, the miles on the Sube is probably a good thing. I assume you drive it somewhere on purpose at least once a month over the summer?
What are the headlights like on the Outback? Legacy?..I forget..
Headlight reflectors/lenses are something I've learned to not take for granted ever since they replaced the old glass sealed beams. Remember when Chrysler brought out their first ...dang..having a brain fart here...their cab-forward cars..LH plus the cheaper ones..anyway, people could barely see 40 or 50' in front of them on low beam. Can't even imagine the R&D guys at Chryco..."oh...you mean they have to be functional too? We thought they just had to look good sitting there in the parking lot." ugh..
Anyway..drive safe..although I know she's a lot closer than she used to be so that's good..
Be thankful you didn't get the ice storm that GTA got. My friend in Brampton says his street in Brampton looks like a war zone. He measured the ice and was a full 5/8" thick..
Trees and power lines down all over the place. Massive destruction..trees sitting on homes and cars..was a big area..well outside of GTA too..
Saw clips on the news..pretty nasty. It basically missed us up here..had about 1/32" layer..walk in the park.. just as well, it simply has NOT quit snowing here every day since Dec 11th. Is getting hard to find places to put it...so we've already paid our dues for all of this year AFAIC'd..
Yeah, just nice powder here, no ice. As soon as the sun comes out I'm waxing my snowboard. The lights are marginal on the Outback, but better than they were since I found some polish stuff at the house (used toothpaste with okay results before). Even though they aren't too hazy for their age, they are low enough that the road spray covers them up pretty good after a few miles.
A tank of gas lasts me all summer.
I trust your friend has a diesel generator....
Merry Christmas ! Happy New Year ! The best to all for the coming year ! Happy dieseling !
Slow diesel news day.
D2 = $3.85,
PUG = $ 3.55,
RUG = $ 3.35
@ruking1
:thumb up:
Remember the two rules on Xmas eve..
and
Uhhh..you guys get Baileys down/out there, right?
I was addicted to Baileys in my evening coffee and had to go cold turkey to break the habit. Good stuff but very fattening. Now I have to break my addiction to a nice Grand Marnier every night. Doc says one cocktail per night is fine.
Santa looks like he's had too much Baileys over the years!
Merry Christmas to everyone.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 is a good year to buy that diesel and quit pollutin' so much.
Have a Hairy Christmas and a Happy, Happy, Happy New year
As good as resale value is on diesels (relatively), depreciation is not a friend of plug ins
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/12/26/plug-in-cars-electric-cars-depreciation-resale-residual-value/4194373/
Right now a 300 mile range, is pretty much vaporware.
The tax credit only applies to new vehicles so it's a bit like how new car incentives can depress resale values. I guess the incentive is still big too (~$7,500). Gas hanging around $3.35 doesn't help either unless an EV fits your commute or mostly city driving. CAFE is going to keep them around a while though.
With Nissan batteries losing a large part of their capacity at an early age, may be a good reason not to buy a used EV. Unless there is some big break through in battery design, I would not expect the resale of EVs to improve. Still trying to grasp what Musk will do with a bunch of used Teslas he has paid too much for.
Hm, I've had good luck with refurbs. That could be an affordable way to get into a Tesla, especially if they'd put a good warranty on one.
People made similar kinds of arguments trying to shoot down the Prius, and look how that turned out.
I really do not know about that. OFF the diesel topic, knowing what I know and having run 150,000 +plus miles in 10+ years now in a "commuter type" car, I would STILL get a Civic/Corolla in the COMUTER segment over a Prius. This is despite wanting to "like Prius'es more, even after multiple REdesigns. Not to scratch a black board but diesel Civic/Corolla' are still the best "non existent" commuter tickets.
This is not to say that I am unhappy with any of the VW commute TDI's (03/09), I have since moved onto. One of the other benefits are diesels are WONDERFUL road cars !!! Anecdotally, they are turning out to be far more reliable and durable than most give them credit for ! ? Also the quality of even the non luxury models are heads and shoulders above.
I think the BIG picture utility of the Prius is so Toyota can sell the rest of its line with more volume and greater profits. One example are the small to "light) but HUGE light trucks segments , albeit far less MPG !! ??
I also think the VERY artificial adversarial diesel vs Prius Hybrid is way too over done and straw man. Most folks who shift to a Prius see the enemy as another... gasser. In fact they remain gasser USERS !!! A lot are relatively unaware of diesels let alone realistically consider a diesel. So for example, a relative who went to a new Prius came from a GASSER (MB 320 station wagon). He was less than marginally aware and could care less about diesels.
What is become more visible (according to a WSJ article and IHS statistics) are the average age of the passenger fleet is forecasted to climb to 11.5 years old by 2018.
Your comment makes sense -- if Prius drivers see gassers as the enemy, they'd put diesels in that camp too. Wonder what they mutter when a pure EV driver gives them flack?
I wonder how much better mileage my car could achieve if traffic could flow properly. The lost momentum and excess idle time has to kill it. The single strong point of hybrids, enabled by inept "engineers".
I think even for hybrids, that relationship promises a lot more than probably what happens in REALITY. The Prius 2004, as I remember had an EPA of 60 mpg C/50 mpg H. At that time, it fulfilled in neither metric. The best I can gather is the over all was 42-45 mpg. It also took a lot of effort once one knew how to maximize the mpg. The brouhaha even spilled into the regulations being changed to give hybrids an edge even as they had to simultaneously severely lower their EPA figures and do several costly "RE" designs. The rule changes even put gassers and diesels @ a STATED disadvantage.
I recall the 2003 Jetta TDI had an EPA of 42 C/49 mpg H. My over all for 186,000 miles was app 50 mpg. My range of tank fulls were between 44 mpg to 62 mpg and in a normal commute were more the range of 48-52 mpg, again call it 50 mpg. In the process of understanding how diesels were different one really did not have to try hard @ all. In fact you could easily go from egg ono go pedal to slightly to moderately aggressively and mpg would literally FALL into place. It would be interesting if I knew what a 04 Prius could do under like operating conditions.
Both sides saw the writings on the wall and the Prius went toward actually trying to GET 50 mpg and the diesels went for app 52% more torque while boosting efficiency, and getting more like 40- 44 mpg.
I know the Prius benefits from driving like there is an egg between the go pedal and one's foot. The TDI's benefit from slightly aggressive to moderately aggressive operations. From a practical perspective, the differences are literally night and day. Now this is not to say the Prius could not be driven (harder) like a TDI , or for that matter vice versa.
I love driving my Touareg TDI. We went to an appointment in downtown San Diego today. Merging onto Interstate 52 some jerk in a Camry thought he could block my small opening into the right lane. Needless to say that sluggish gasser did not have a chance. I was up over 90 when I let off and slipped back into the flow about half a mile ahead of that neanderthal.
I hate when people will not let you smoothly flow into traffic. Thank you diesel torque.
These arguments are either in bad faith or borne out of ignorance.
First, comparing the bare-bones Prius V base leatherette model at $31k to the loaded to the gills TDI Premium at $32k is like comparing a Toyota to Lexus. The $31k Prius V is comparable to the $27k TDI SE trim, which I purchased for $24.5k btw. Even that has more features than the Prius V base - including power seats. Even Totyota does not try to compare the Prius to a Passat, they compare it to a Jetta Wagon.
Likewise, a partial list of things that the Camry XLE $27k base does not have that the TDI Premium has include leather, a sunroof, premium audio system, navigation, heated seats and much much more. I figured this out on page 1 of the Camry build.
It took me 5 mins of research to figure this much out. I would think that people comparison shopping cars would try to at least make sure that they are comparing apples to apples.
I will not even get into how the EPA numbers for diesels have been thoroughly and repeatedly (by both professional reviewers and ordinary drivers) shown to be understated. On a personal level, I drove my '14 Passat TDI to work today - clocking 70/30 highway/city @ 44.2mpg. The highway leg was @80mph and included 3 very aggressive 3rd gear redlined merges. Even better, I clocked 39mpg on a BMW 328d in Germany racing (literally with the pedal jammed against the floor) on the autobahn @140mph+. Steady 130kmph (82mph) on Swiss highways delivered close to 53mpg. No one actually disputes the fact that diesels have substantially better mileage, especially on the highway.
If you want to justify the Prius then you should at least highlight the correct reasons, not un-researched baseless ones. Maybe you drive almost exclusively in the city. No diesel can touch a hybrid's mileage in that environment. One could argue that the money you would save buying a comparable diesel would more than make up for the lower mileage but still, from an immediate emission perspective a hybrid would outperform a diesel.
But nothing that you discussed above have any basis in reality.
Btw, icing on the cake:
Putting the family at risk, for what?