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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,679
    edited January 15

    I agree, Steve! I don't mind those 1,000 mile days when the situation warrants, but I'm also coming to appreciate a sub-500 mile driving day. And, if I could do that on a single tank, so much the better!

    Gary, you are, of course, absolutely right that there are far more factors than just the cost of fuel to consider. As an analyst, I had to throw that piece of the equation out there. ;)

    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 16

    @nyccarguy said: Driving around in a 328xd and liking it a lot got me thinking about BMW's current 3 series offering and how I could get into a new one when my lease is up if I were so inclined. Your thoughts?

    320xi sedan (180 hp/184 lb/ft torque) - White/Black Sensatec, Lighting Pkg, Heated Front Seats, Moonroof - MSRP $38,125

    4 USA cars on Fuelly averaging 27.625 mpg

    328xd sedan (180 hp/280 lb ft torque)- White/Black Sensatec, Lighting Pkg, Heated Front Seats, Moonroof - MSRP $43,975

    Use the 39 mpg I'm getting according to the OBC

    The diesel costs $5,850 more & gets 12 mpg more. I drive 20,000 miles per year. Where's my "break even point" ruking?

    I appreciate the shout out. Strictly on differences od MSRP, MPG, and costs of fuel, (PUG/D2) XWESX is in the ballpark @ 8.3 years. My quick and dirty was more like 9.14 years.($640. per year fuel savings) However, the resale values (your residual values since you like to lease) can tell a far different story. Also since the avg age of the fleet is closer to 11.5 years, the fuel portion really piles up or SAVES you as the case might be. You also forstall for @ least 6.5 or so years MORE of the massive depreciation of a new car.

    I just got back from "spring" skiing in the DEAD of WINTER (mid January?) !! GLORIOUS !!!! would probably be an understatement, as well as letting the cat out of the bag. :'( B)

    I even took public transportation to and from the end destination !! So while I would love many more 3 to 5 ft snow falls, it is HARDLY looking like the case, even as the farmer's almanac predicted large snow falls.

    But I digress. With a lot of high desert stop and go driving as well as numerous SIDE trips, 12 VW T TDI posted 30 mpg upgrade trip and 31 mpg downgrade trip. The usual speeds applied. ;)

    I even wandered into the so called FAST Lane #1 (close to home or down grade portion) and got behind a White MB 300 series. The driver was asleep @ the wheel. But when I passed her (I was told by my passenger, the driver was a woman) on the right, she either woke up or took umbrage and/or both and started to move as one is supposed to (in the fast or #1 lane) !! She got back up on the SIX of a PU truck, so I assumed after the "wake up call" she went back to sleep.

  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,919

    Not sure how excited I'd get over another 100 lb-ft of torque either. 50mpg -- now that excites me. B)

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166

    @Stever@Edmunds said: Not sure how excited I'd get over another 100 lb-ft of torque either. 50mpg -- now that excites me.

    When you are stuck behind a Prius going 50 MPH in a 70 MPH zone and the traffic in the left lane is bumper to bumper doing 75 MPH, you will appreciate all the torque you can get merging into the faster lane. The near double mileage over a comparable gas rig is just the gravy.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166

    @Stever@Edmunds said: Work at home, you'll go weeks and weeks. :-) Range is fine, but I have to take a break every hour anyway. In my 20s I'd drive 20 hours straight to get somewhere. 300 miles has always been our road trip target, although we still hit too many 500 mile days.

    We probably take a break every couple hours. Not at a dirty filthy truck stop. Usually a fast food place where the rest rooms are relatively clean. Only having to fill up once a day is sure nice. 500 mile days are pleasant and easy on my back with the Touareg. The Sequoia was also very comfortable. It would take us 7 days and nights to get back to Indiana driving 300 miles a day. We do it in four easy days. Finding a motel early in the evening is much easier. Then leave at first light. After we have our complimentary breakfast. :p

  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,919

    @gagrice said: Not at a dirty filthy truck stop.

    Aren't those the places that sell diesel? :D

    And you lost me at first light. What's that?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 16

    @Stever@Edmunds said: And you lost me at first light. What's that?

    Yes they do sell diesel and other fuels !

    Aka, OH dark thirty !!!

  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,919
    edited January 16
                                B) 
    

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    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    edited January 16

    @Stever@Edmunds said: And you lost me at first light. What's that?

    Yes truck stops all sell diesel. Usually have one pump with right sized nozzle for a car. Truck stops are one reason so many people think of diesel as being dirty and smelly. I used a 76 truck stop by mistake this time. Dirty rest room and diesel all over the ground around the pumps. I look for Shell or Chevron stations in towns selling diesel.

    First light is before the sun comes up. Try to be on the road to catch the sunrise if we are headed East. Also good time to see wild game along the roads. Don't travel in the dark much. Hitting one deer was enough to last me for life. If we get on the road by 7 AM we have an easy 500 mile day before we start looking for a motel around 4 PM. Works everywhere except the oil country of TX. I avoid when possible. Prefer cutting across the panhandle of TX up into OK. From Amarillo it is US 60 all the way to Henderson, KY right across the border from where my kids live in Indiana. Much more relaxing than the Interstate and those nasty big cities.

    PS First choice for hotels is Hampton Inn B)

  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,919

    Funny, I like seeking out truck stops. And they often have the best gas prices.

    Just razzing you about first light. Not a morning person. The sun does tend to get me up early on the road though - it comes right through the tent fabric. :)

    We typically coffee up and hit the road around 8ish, stop for a leisurely breakfast at 10, maybe a late lunch or just snack, camp and play around 3, and then drive to town for dinner if we're hungry in the evening. Then play on the wifi till midnight. B)

    Texas is a great place but the area surrounding Midland does smell like crude and will give you a headache driving through there.

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    edited January 16

    TX has some nice areas, North or South of Interstate 20. Truck stops invariably charge extra for CC on diesel. And finding which pump has the small nozzle is a trick. I have found the best prices on diesel to be right in town. Also get my Costco 3% at small stations. Gasbuddy is my friend. Get on Wifi at the hotel and find the best price within the area fillup when we go to dinner. All very efficient. Avoiding Interstate highways has the benefit of avoiding dirty gas stations.

    PS Early to bed, Early to rise B)

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 16

    I really enjoy the ability to more at choice in chosing fuel stations because of the longer range. In the SOS/DD scenario's. I can make almost 4 legs (210 mile legs) before fueling. Since any of 4 (major) routes are along Interstate Highways (50/80/ 5, transportation corridors), agriculture and tourist routes, not to mention the state's capital and the western "HARVARD"university of agriculture and WINE/BEER (there are of course others, law, medicine, bio, biotech, fuel research, the myriad mix of fueling type options are available. Now that is what I should have gotten a BA/BS in, WINE and or BEER !!! Actually a double major would have worked also !! Cheers !

  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,919
    edited January 16

    There was an auto show story on NPR this morning talking about diesels and one of the talking heads said that only 25% of gas stations offered diesel. I don't pay a whole lot of attention but I think that's wrong. Not much of a survey but, of the three stations closest to me, two have diesel.

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  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 16

    That ratio (1 diesel 4 RUG/PUG) really has not changed much ! In fact, based on over all percentages diesel dispensation is WILDLY over built. Newer concept stations seek to narrow/address this gap/issue. (I really should not say this)

    Here are two examples.

    1. Retail diesel availability/dispensation SEEMS to be offered more as a CONVENIENCE, rather than a cost effective stand alone revenue generator. Fuel vendors know that 5% of the passenger vehicle fleet are diesels. An example is "older" station products/concepts have the diesel pumps SEPARATE and in some cases separated from RUG/PUG product dispensation. "NEWER" station products/concepts (seeking to optimize sales per pump/installation, given what YOU and I are saying) and have a 1 in 3 configuration (one on either side being RUG/PUG and not all having diesel hoses.

    2. Fuel vendors also know that 8 to 9% of the passenger vehicle fleet are PUG recommended/required. So to encourage the higher profit PUG sales, they both can be and ARE dispensed through the same hose. I do not know the ratios of RUG required UP buy PUG. I also do not know the ratios of PUG recommended/required DOWN buy RUG. They also know that (theoretical) RUG is fully the majority of the markets (86%). So in fact, the "anecdotal" volume and percentage and vehicle counts can reach pretty close to 95 to 99% RUG.

    I say this having diesel (available) stations within a mile of each end destination. (the routes are literally PEPPERED with diesel stations and truck stops). They also seem to be consistently CHEAPER than any number of 5 diesel available stations. In the rural or mountain areas, I do see more diesel light trucks (heavy really).

  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,919

    Maybe that's it since there's a lot of diesel plow trucks here. Apparently that ratio is holding back some buyers who think they'll have trouble finding fuel.

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  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,679

    @Stever@Edmunds said: Maybe that's it since there's a lot of diesel plow trucks here. Apparently that ratio is holding back some buyers who think they'll have trouble finding fuel.

    After crisscrossing this continent a few times, I am quite confident that modern vehicles requiring either gasoline or diesel will have no problem finding fuel within reasonable distances.

    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,919
    edited January 16

    Hey, you know there's a new road getting built north of Inuvik? We should do a meet up. :)

    Gary's rig can tow us out of the muck when we run off the shoulder staring at moose. And Ruking can make the run south to get a 5 gallon can of gas when I run out at the Arctic.

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  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,679

    Didn't know that, but Inuvik?! Talk about off the beaten path! :p

    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166

    @Stever@Edmunds said: Maybe that's it since there's a lot of diesel plow trucks here. Apparently that ratio is holding back some buyers who think they'll have trouble finding fuel.

    I would say here it is the other way around. About 25% do not sell diesel. Of course we have an over abundance of big diesel PU trucks. The choice for toy haulers. The five stations in our little village four sell diesel. They are all higher priced than 12 miles away. They think they have a captive audience. Nice to have a nominal 650+ mile range.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166

    I have 49 stations reporting diesel price within a 12 mile radius of me. Price varies from $3.87 to $4.35 a gallon. Where we were yesterday the Shell had diesel for $3.75. Cheapest right now in San Diego area. In that same radius the cheapest RUG is $3.43 at Costco.

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 16

    I figuratively and literally (300,000+ diesel miles) have NEVER had issues getting diesel fuel in a so called "mixed products" station. Indeed I have never even WAITED for a diesel customer in front of me to fuel. !! I am curious to hear other diesel users experiences.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166

    I can't start to tell you how many times I have waited in line to get gas at Costco. It is rare to find the diesel pumps busy at the various stations I have visited. Having to fill only half as often doubles the odds in the diesel drivers favor. I scope out the Green areas on the Gas Buddy map and then close in on the highways we are taking. Shell, Mobil and Chevron on the roads less traveled are usually the best prices on diesel. Better than the truck stops most of the time. Gas is just the opposite. Best price on our last trip was $3.51 at a Cooperative selling Shell in Indiana. It was not on Gas Buddy I just saw it driving by. Will head for there on my next trip as it is only a couple miles from my son's home. Average price last October was $3.79. Not much change since then. Have only filled once since returning on the 5th of November. Diesel cost me $330 less than the previous trip in the Sequoia. Paid for 3 nights at the Hampton Inn. And that was with gas averaging about $3.20 in the Spring vs $3.79 for diesel in the Fall.

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 17

    @gagrice said: I can't start to tell you how many times I have waited in line to get gas at Costco. It is rare to find the diesel pumps busy at the various stations I have visited. Having to fill only half as often doubles the odds in the diesel drivers favor. I scope out the Green areas on the Gas Buddy map and then close in on the highways we are taking. Shell, Mobil and Chevron on the roads less traveled are usually the best prices on diesel. Better than the truck stops most of the time. Gas is just the opposite. Best price on our last trip was $3.51 at a Cooperative selling Shell in Indiana. It was not on Gas Buddy I just saw it driving by. Will head for there on my next trip as it is only a couple miles from my son's home. Average price last October was $3.79. Not much change since then. Have only filled once since returning on the 5th of November. Diesel cost me $330 less than the previous trip in the Sequoia. Paid for 3 nights at the Hampton Inn. And that was with gas averaging about $3.20 in the Spring vs $3.79 for diesel in the Fall.

    Realistically on your description of fueling experiences on the GASSER as well as the ULSD sides, mine mirror yours.

    Insofar as the diesel fuel nexus on this thread, I know the FEAR of "can't find diesel fuel stations, to save one's life" is alive and well . Not only that, that issue/fear is probably "one more nail in the coffin," so to speak. So while the temptation might be to try and dispel theses myths, the other truth is that I also benefit from those very same myths ! So, not only are the PERCEPTIONS and narratives totally false, the realities are FAR different, aka SWEET !! ???

    One has to wait even LONGER to fuel RUG/PUG gassers AND by structure, or as folks have heard me use the word) de facto, MORE FREQUENTLY.

    So for example, in the city of SOS/DD :D B) , the YP.com's lists 38 "fuel" stations, aka, not catering to the transportation "trade", aka truck stops, etc. 28 of those stations dispense ULSD, or 74% ULSD. What folks probably do not think about (the why not's are perfectly understandable) is the population that needs diesel fuel is 5%. vs 95%

    EXAMPLE:

    So IF 100,000 cars (95,000 RUG/PUG and 5,000 DIESELS) need fuel for 38 stations/28 diesels, there are 2,500 cars per station RUG/PUG and 179 cars per station diesel. The ratio is 1 to app 14.

    So the "theoretical" number of diesel stations to achieve the same "ratio" are, .... ????? (drum rollzzzzz) literally 2 DIESEL stations !!!!!!!! ??????????

    This means diesel dispensation (@ 28 stations) is WAY overbuilt ????? !!! Come on L & G's, I bet you can tell me by how much ?????? !!!!! (on a STATIONS BUILT basis, the sound of one hand clapping) Now for you folks that see this as obviously BIASED, I am totally leaving out the DIESEL TRUCK stops Gagrice and I occasionally speak about.

    SO ooooooo, ..... I / WE (you, Fintail, et al) want HIGH percentages of diesel conversions...... BECAUSE ??????? B)

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,988

    The RUG/PUG/ULSD spread in my neck of the woods at a gas station I frequent is as follows:

    RUG: $3.759 PUG: $4.099 ULSD: $4.259

    Just filled up the Pilot tonight with 18.5 gallons of RUG. Got $.30 off per gallon ($3.459) using my Stop & Shop card. 15.2 mpg last tank.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 18

    I read an interesting article in passing (WSJ or Yahoo Finance?) : given that many folks have "perceived" issues when the diesel option costs "more" than a gasser. Two oems had ZERO issues getting $ 6,000 more for a so called "refreshed" Impala and $7,000 (?)MORE for a F-150 truck.

    The back drop for all of this are almost all oems offer many more models and an even more dizzying array of options (in those model lines) that folks (buying gassers) have absolutely no issues paying HUGE premiums FOR.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166

    **What would it take to get me into a Domestic brand PU truck? This would be a tough one to beat. **

    https://www.fuelly.com/driver/jamezis/ranger

    It's been said many times before: The all-new 2012 Ford Ranger will not be sold in North America. Why? It's too close in size and capability to the best-selling Ford F-150, according to Ford executives. And if this new Ranger were offered, it could confuse buyers and hurt F-150 sales.

    The new Ranger, code-named T6, was always intended to be part of the global "One Ford" design to cater to a wider international market. Ford's engineers worked with design centers in North America, Asia and Europe with a few very specific priorities to keep in mind. It had to keep the Ford DNA, offer great fuel economy, be exceptionally quiet and be a great drive. And it needed to offer more comfort than in any pickup truck before it.The 2012 Ranger will be made in three different plants around the world: Argentina, South Africa and Thailand. We had our road test (and off-road test) in Thailand, in the northern province of Chiang Rai.

    http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/cars/2012-ford-ranger-road-test-1.3369588

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 18

    Perhaps I should mention those "competitive" advantages that "allowed " for the $6,000/$7,000 up charges/premiums. The "new" 14 Impala was redesigned on a recycled Cadillac platform that has long since been declared obsolete and fully amortized. Now this is a bit TMI, for this Cadillac was pretty good in its' day. Albeit a lower cost/price/performancd Cadillac. No doubt CR's very high ratings was another marketing boost. The F150 went to "boot camp" and "lost" 700#'s and got a (always problematic) cylinder de activation system. I am also sure each got stuff folks "wanted" that had absolutely nothing to do with mpg (boost) due to diesel and drivetrain.

    Indeed the MSRP between the lowest and highest 14 Civic can be $6,700 +

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 18

    @nyccarguy said: The RUG/PUG/ULSD spread in my neck of the woods at a gas station I frequent is as follows:

    RUG: $3.759 PUG: $4.099 ULSD: $4.259

    Just filled up the Pilot tonight with 18.5 gallons of RUG. Got $.30 off per gallon ($3.459) using my Stop & Shop card. 15.2 mpg last tank.

    Speaking of 15.2 mpg in gasser SUV's, we are always happy when the 94/96 TLC's get between 15 and 17 mpg.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166

    @ruking1 said: Speaking of 15.2 mpg in gasser SUV's, we are always happy when the 94/96 TLC's get between 15 and 17 mpg>

    Do you ever drive the old Land Cruisers? For me it would be like my getting into the LS400 once a week for a run into town. It keeps the battery charged is about all. It is in no way the pleasure to drive of the Touareg. Not to mention the radio quit working 10 years ago and we don't have any Cassettes worth listening to. I sometimes wish it would just die so I could give it to father Joe and get the tax write-off.

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 15,159
    edited January 18

    Yes, Before I do, I really have to get into the "mental frame work" !!! The thing is GREAT all day long @ 55 to 65 mph !! :D ....zzzzzzzzzzz

    Every so often the "kids" ask me to drive them in their ( 20/18 year old) TLC's. They have long ago seen the utility and beauty of NO monthly car payments (on a depreciating asset??? ) !!

    On my last outing, We took a batch of friends (8 total folks) to an Italian dinner house. (I am the designated driver !? ) It is also useful as the 2nd or even third truck for moving "STUFF". Yes the 94's "radio" quit working a while back, and it has had the latest "whatz" it sound system. I have the DEAD radio on a shelf in case I sell it to a guy who wants to RETRO it.

    Anymore, I use battery trickle chargers to keep them (various batteries) on their "performance edges". There is a whole TMI narrative on why this is good and some of the BAD side effects, that make a battery trickle charger necessary.

    I would be more of a "fanboy" of battery technology (Tesla\ as an example) if it were actually:

    1. cheaper than diesel per mile driven
    2. longer range, say 800+ miles
    3. don't have to drive like Wayne Gerdes during record tries
    4. duplicated the energization process of diesel tanks (less than 10 mins)
    5. Actually went 300 plus miles without losing 100 miles range in winter (MINUS 33.3%).
    6. Right now to go 800 miles @ 33/3% loss it is only 534 miles. That is optimistic as it does NOT account for winter operations, just battery energy loss. It is easy to say another loss of 20% for winter operations. I actually have experiences with electrical tow vehicles in down to - minus 70 degree weather. Two caveats: 1. LONG ago 2. electricity was paid for by taxpayers (free to me). 3.The industrial equipment necessary was a 3 phased charger. Obvious now a days NEITHER to all caveat/s applies.

    Now in winter, I do not fuel @ the 800 mile per tank mark (31 mpg for 818 mile range) as it can be life threading in winter operations to run out. But I would think it a HUGE letdown to think one has a 300 miles range and it is deader than a door nail @ 200 miles and WAY less..

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