What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

[Deleted User] · February 2014

@gagrice said:
The VW Crossblue is a very nice looking SUV. I love the lines and the interior is gorgeous.

However, my favorite picture is the engine compartment. Someone sweated the details to make the under-hood just as pretty as the outside is.

ruking1 · February 2014

Indeed ! BUT a lot of "form" is FUNCTIONAL ! A lot of what you see is indeed good looking. The heart of the matter (to me anyway over 3 TDI', are sound deadening, heat dissipation, ( perhaps to VW it tends to) keep components clean and provide snow prophalatics and keeping components cleaner longer.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

I get it. I understand that under the cover(s) is a myriad of wiring, hot aluminum and other alloys, dangerous electrical components,fans, processors, and various flammable liquids and gases, plus electrons flowing through and around it all.

Sometimes it is nice NOT to see it, and just know that some engineer made it all look beautiful.

gagrice · February 2014

@cski said:
I get it. I understand that under the cover(s) is a myriad of wiring, hot aluminum and other alloys, dangerous electrical components,fans, processors, and various flammable liquids and gases, plus electrons flowing through and around it all.

Sometimes it is nice NOT to see it, and just know that some engineer made it all look beautiful.

All the same issues the other EVs and hybrids suffer from. Dangerous batteries that spontaneously erupt in flames. Dangerous wiring firemen hate to mess with. One redeeming factor. It does not have a tank full of highly explosive gasoline.

benjaminh · February 2014

If I were buying a diesel, this would be my dream car: A BMW 328d xDrive Sports Wagon. Gets 31 city and 43 on the highway. 0-60 in c. 7.5 seconds. Panoramic sunroof comes standard, as do paddle shifters, which is interesting because it lists for only $2350 more than the 328d xDrive sedan, which doesn't have either of these features standard. A panoramic on the X3 goes for $1350, and paddle shifters are a $500 option. And so it looks to me like you're getting the Wagon part of this deal for the bargain price of $500! The list price is still a hefty $42,950, but the savings on gas and BMW's 4 years of totally free maintenance actually makes this a compelling vehicle imho. And BMW wagon would be almost as rare as a unicorn, which also would be appealing to me given how common the sedans are in some neighborhoods. Am I right in thinking that it's pretty easy to special order a BMW with the exact options and colors you want, as long as you're willing to wait for a couple of months for them to build it in Germany and bring it over?

gagrice · February 2014

@benjaminh said:
If I were buying a diesel, this would be my dream car: A BMW 328d xDrive Sports Wagon. Gets 31 city and 43 on the highway. 0-60 in c. 7.5 seconds. Panoramic sunroof comes standard, as do paddle shifters, which is interesting because it lists for only $2350 more than the 328d xDrive sedan, which doesn't have either of these features standard. A panoramic on the X3 goes for $1350, and paddle shifters are a $500 option. And so it looks to me like you're getting the Wagon part of this deal for the bargain price of $500! The list price is still a hefty $42,950, but the savings on gas and BMW's 4 years of totally free maintenance actually makes this a compelling vehicle imho. And BMW wagon would be almost as rare as a unicorn, which also would be appealing to me given how common the sedans are in some neighborhoods. Am I right in thinking that it's pretty easy to special order a BMW with the exact options and colors you want, as long as you're willing to wait for a couple of months for them to build it in Germany and bring it over?

Why not get European delivery and save enough for the trip. VW, Audi and BMW all give Free maintenance on their diesels. MB needs to do that as well.

ruking1 · February 2014

Yes, one also has @ least 4 options:

request a dealer or dealers or indy broker/s to search the dealers' logistic system for any that MIGHT be in US inventory.
European (ordered) delivery
dealer/s enroute and un claimed models
dealer allotment/order more custom

stever · February 2014

"Ram is first to market with a small-displacement, turbodiesel engine in a half-ton pickup truck. The Ram 1500 EcoDiesel is equipped with a new 3.0-liter EcoDiesel V6 engine linked to an eight-speed automatic transmission.

In comparison, a 2014 Ram 1500 with a 5.7-liter V8 engine and six-speed automatic transmission delivers 14 mpg in city driving and 20 mpg on the highway, according to the EPA."

2014 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel Delivers 28 MPG On The Highway

And for those following the Passat in the fleet:

2013 Volkswagen Passat TDI: Fuel Economy Update for January

jordan40 · February 2014

if its a pick up yes ill buy it if its the diesel ford excursion then yes ill buy it if not give me a million dollars and ill buy a diesel car

ruking1 · February 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
"Ram is first to market with a small-displacement, turbodiesel engine in a half-ton pickup truck. The Ram 1500 EcoDiesel is equipped with a new 3.0-liter EcoDiesel V6 engine linked to an eight-speed automatic transmission.

In comparison, a 2014 Ram 1500 with a 5.7-liter V8 engine and six-speed automatic transmission delivers 14 mpg in city driving and 20 mpg on the highway, according to the EPA."

2014 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel Delivers 28 MPG On The Highway

And for those following the Passat in the fleet:

2013 Volkswagen Passat TDI: Fuel Economy Update for January

The 2025 54.5 mpg standards are here right now (30ish mpg)

benjaminh · February 2014

BMW 328i base msrp $37,300, 27 mpg, $2050 annual fuel costs

BMW 328d base msrp $38,600, 37 mpg, $1550 annual fuel costs

So the diesel costs $1300 more, but in just three years it pays for itself. Over ten years you've saved c. $5000 in fuel-$1300 purchase price=savings of c.$3700.

And, in general, is maintenance on a diesel less? About the same? More?

ruking1 · February 2014

The 2025 54.5 mpg standards are here right now (30ish mpg)

Michaell · February 2014

@benjaminh said:
BMW 328i base msrp $37,300, 27 mpg, $2050 annual fuel costs

BMW 328d base msrp $38,600, 37 mpg, $1550 annual fuel costs

So the diesel costs $1300 more, but in just three years it pays for itself. Over ten years you've saved c. $5000 in fuel-$1300 purchase price=savings of c.$3700.

And, in general, is maintenance on a diesel less? About the same? More?

Who buys and keeps a BMW for 10 years? Most BMWs, I suspect, are leased for 3 years then turn into CPO cars.

However, you will get your money back in those three years based on the numbers quoted.

What I'm curious to know is what the premium is, if any, for a CPO 328i vs. 328d after those three years? Still $1300?

benjaminh · February 2014

Yes, look at the cars that the 328d at 45 mpg beats for highway mpg: Smart Car, Mazda3, Mini Cooper, and even the Prius V

benjaminh · February 2014

The newer diesels are supposed to have very good resale value. And so could that $1300 premium even stretch on resale into something more? Don't know...

stever · February 2014

Looking at True Cost to Own for the 2011s (nothing newer, at least for a diesel 3 Series), the maintenance and repair look pretty even. Depreciation is similar too.

3.0L 6-cyl. Turbo Diesel 6-speed Automatic

3.0L 6-cyl. Turbo 6-speed Manual

Didn't see an automatic option so it's a bit of an apples to agates comparison.

The other wrinkle is the "free" maintenance you get now with BMWs for four years.

benjaminh · February 2014

Stever: Those maintenance and repairs numbers seem very odd to me. Let me put it more strongly: they look almost insane. They are way too high imho. Who calculated these numbers, and what method did they use?

BMW estimates that its 4 years of free maintenance are worth about $2000. If my rough addition is right, Edmunds is estimating maintenance and repair costs for these models of something like $8000 in the first 4 years. What the heck is up with that? What new car needs that kind of maintenance and repair work in the first 4 years?

In the last 12 years I've bought 3 new Honda Accords--a 2002 LX, a 2008 EXL and now a 2013 EXL. For the 02 and the 08 the main thing for the first 4 years was a lot of oil changes and couple of tire rotations. I know Hondas are a lot cheaper than BMWs to maintain and repair but.....??? I'm at a loss for words, because I think those numbers are just off by a significant amount. If I'm reading them wrong, I apologize.

Any thoughts?

gagrice · February 2014

@benjaminh said:
Stever: Those maintenance and repairs numbers seem very odd to me. Let me put it more strongly: they look almost insane. They are way too high imho. Who calculated these numbers, and what method did they use?

BMW estimates that its 4 years of free maintenance are worth about $2000. If my rough addition is right, Edmunds is estimating maintenance and repair costs for these models of something like $8000 in the first 4 years. What the heck is up with that? What new car needs that kind of maintenance and repair work in the first 4 years?

In my 15 plus years of reading Edmunds, I would say their TCO is generally flawed. They seem to pick numbers willy nilly with little basis in reality. Such as depreciation, insurance, interest & Maintenance. For instance, they show for my 2013 Touareg TDI Lux a first year depreciation of $12k. Yet on their used car appraisal they show $5000 lower trade-in value than what I paid. And I paid about what they showed as TMV. Which I have found to be pretty accurate. I live in a high insurance zone, yet no where close to Edmund's estimate.

My bet is when you go to sell a BMW diesel the premium paid will come back in resale value. Probably even gain some if you don't keep it 10 years. In which case the cost for fuel will have paid you back.

stever · February 2014

More apples and agates but Kelley has their own version and Consumer Reports sort of does (don't see a calculator for a specific model off-hand). The 3 Series may not be the best to look at because, to quote CR, "BMWs are some of the most expensive cars to maintain over the long term."

The 2011 TCO numbers I quoted are going forward, so the free BMW maintenance would be over in a year (assuming that transfers to new owners).

And this page explains where we get the numbers. (ie, the owner's manual, Tire Rack, and extended warranty estimates).

ruking1 · February 2014

The real issue to my way of thinking: how much OVER (or under) are the diesel PORTION costs.

gagrice · February 2014

How do diesels impact the auto makers sales? Just looking at the two leaders in US luxury auto. MB is holding their lead to start off the year with .5% increase with 22,604 sales. BMW is not letting MB rest. They sold 18,253 for a 10.5% gain over last year.

Sales mix for Audi A6 TDI finished the month at 13.8% to 205 vehicles sold, for the Audi A7 TDI at 11.2% to 70 vehicles, for the A8 TDI to 13.1% to 44 vehicles, the Audi Q5 TDI at 17.4% to 483 vehicles, and for the Audi Q7 TDI at 22.9% to 291 vehicles; with an overall increase of 16.9% to 1,093 total TDI sales for January.

Audi achieves 37th consecutive monthly sales record in January

http://www.audiusanews.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=C22247DDB18C138DA710E247D6EA6EC0?&id=3671&allImage=1&teaser=audi-achieves-37th-consecutive-monthly-sales-record-january&mid=1

ruking1 · February 2014

The array of Audi products seems to hit the "target marks" at many different levels and price (albeit higher than VW) points. I

If I didn't know better, I would think that Audi might have been listening to "me" in the 14 Q5 offering. While I am very happy with the 12 VW T TDI, the Q5 is app 500#'s lighter and a smidgeon (technical term) smaller ( with a 3.0 L TDI with now 428 # ft of torque. In line with those factors, mpg will probably be structurally better (swag 31 mpg MINIMUM to 34/35, VW T being 28 EPA with little effort to post 31/33 mpg. Knowing what I know and over 45,000 miles in a CUV TDI, the 14 Q5 TDI would definitely be one of my top 5, IF I were looking today ! Needless to say the 14 VW T TDI would (still) be another.

ruking1 · February 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
More apples and agates but Kelley has their own version and Consumer Reports sort of does (don't see a calculator for a specific model off-hand). The 3 Series may not be the best to look at because, to quote CR, "BMWs are some of the most expensive cars to maintain over the long term."

The 2011 TCO numbers I quoted are going forward, so the free BMW maintenance would be over in a year (assuming that transfers to new owners).

And this page explains where we get the numbers. (i.e., the owner's manual, Tire Rack, and extended warranty estimates).

BMW (1 example) has ALWAYS been a car requiring an enthusiast's effort and to be campy "understanding". Probably more real world, with the cash for the "privilege of owning one". The real issue to me has been its appeal to NON enthusiast's and resulting dissonance. I think the all inclusive new car warranty and maintenance was really BMW's way of getting non enthusiasts happy and into the fold. Going forward, the writing has been on the wall for a while, they will have to become more "Japanese" (Lexus as an example) that way to grow and ultimately survive.

VW has always been a car to need PERIODIC maintenance and upkeep. For my .02 cents, over the years, it was really the reason for the switch to Japanese products. Surprisingly, and over the years, VW TDI's seem to be more maintenance FREE (or more properly, do just fine with EXTENDED intervals) than some to all Japanese products I have owned. One example which I know is like finger nails scratching a blackboard to some, are longer OCI's with the very robust VW SPECIFICATION oils VW 507.00/504.00 5w30, et al.

gagrice · February 2014

I think the Q5 TDI is a good seller. 39 owners are posting on Fuelly. Overall average is 27.7 MPG. Just slightly above the EPA 27 MPG combined. If I was looking for a smaller CUV than the Touareg, it would probably be the GLK250 Bluetec. I cannot imagine liking any vehicle more than I do the Touareg TDI.

stever · February 2014

@ruking1, thanks, interesting insight behind BMW's marketing. It really may be the most competitive auto sector, and both BMW and MB have gotten (or retained) the upper hand over Lexus.

And BMW can use diesel torque to keep the "driver's car" enthusiasts engaged while relying on the range and mpg to expand the marque to "regular" shoppers.

ruking1 · February 2014

A close friend of my wife has been (over the 35 years I have known her) a HUGE fan of BMW's. Her husband (independent of her) is another, with the facilities, tools, special and otherwise to fix his now 4 or 5 "KIDS". So every time we get together, one topic of conversation: catch up on all things BMW (non diesels) .

ruking1 · February 2014

It is a slow diesel news day. I just missed posting 52 mpg !! Filled after returning from errands, after the low fuel warning lamp/buzzer lit/sounded. It took 12.6/14.5 tank gals, 654 miles. The highway cops were out with radar guns in the customer service mode. I watch one pull a "customer" over.

stever · February 2014

"The new X3 xDrive28d will offer BMW's 2.0-liter TwinPower turbodiesel four-cylinder engine rated at 180 horsepower and 280 pound-feet of torque, mated to an eight-speed automatic transmission. BMW says the X3 clean diesel will accelerate from zero to 60 mph in just under 8 seconds"

2015 BMW X3 Lineup Offers New Turbodiesel

ruking1 · February 2014

It would seem like the CUV S/M/L segment/s has/have been identified for the TDI's to really get a host of product offerings. Chrysler will be testing the full sized utility truck segment !!!

gagrice · February 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
"The new X3 xDrive28d will offer BMW's 2.0-liter TwinPower turbodiesel four-cylinder engine rated at 180 horsepower and 280 pound-feet of torque, mated to an eight-speed automatic transmission. BMW says the X3 clean diesel will accelerate from zero to 60 mph in just under 8 seconds"

When it comes time to trade in there will be lots of choices. I like the X5 and X3. Will be plenty of time to build up a data base of actual mileage on all the new choices. If BMW continues offering free service issues like AdBlue will just go away.

ruking1 · February 2014

Any car should be able to last a minimum of 100,000 miles to a so called "major tune up." This underlying assumption is true for almost any modern day car.

A lot of non diesels folks cite Ad Blue as an issue. It is literally no different than replacing windshield washer fluid when it runs out.

ruking1 · February 2014

I think that one of the reasons why my above post bares keeping in mind or in my case repeating on this thread, is the first major tune cycle really sets the BAR. In the case of the newer VW TDI's, the bar (VW oem major tune recommendation) is really now @ 120,000 miles. So what it then does is beg the question: how many cycles can this vehicle reasonably do in the REAL world. So if 2 cycles is the "edge of the flat earth" for most folks, that is really 240,000 miles !! ??? and no big deal??? . There are of course wearable and unscheduled break able items. The next question then would be how long does it take most folks to do 2 cycles of mileage?

Now I realize the one, two, three, FOUR of it might be an acquired taste: to off putting, just like the 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 miles OCI's.

stever · February 2014

@Ruking1, the first major "tune-up" on my minivan was at 124,000 miles and I still think I should have left the plugs in longer. Took too many months for the mpg to creep back up to where it was.

The real question is who wants to drive the same old car that long? (present company excepted. ).

ruking1 · February 2014

Yes I did a prior (snap shot 12.6 gal) post on an ALMOST 52 mpg on an 11 MY old VW Jetta TDI with almost 181,000 miles... zzzzzzzzz. Admittedly, I have come off cruising the highways @ 90 mph. Oh the price of Fogie dom !!!!

As you have probably gathered, I like new cars as much as the next person Probably more so than most !? Indeed your question is really of WANT.

So if one is TIRED of ones "OLD" car, it is a hell of a lot cheaper to find an ace detailer to have them reinject that "new" car look and feel. Additionally, they will probably appreciate the business, especially if one does the home work. To mention the logistical systems hidden in plain sight, aka for anyone who has ever gotten into an accident, are the first folks one goes to are are car/accident "restorers".

If one follows so called "restoration" car shows (Chasing Classic Cars is but one example) part of the essential skills sets are the abilities and capabilities to restore things on an "OLD" car to new car DETAIL. Bottom line here is it is way easier to establish and keep a high baseline.

Here is an anecdotal example. The 09 Jetta TDI was one of the first of VW's modern diesels (5 years ago now) EPA H is 40 . @ app 68,000 miles, it posts between 39 to 42 mpg in a crushing commute. 2014 VW Jetta TDI has an EPA H of 42 mpg or 5% better mpg. Nobody really knows what mpg it gets in the real world . Sure, I can guess and it will probably be spot on. So just on the EPA H differences (40-42=2) and on 15,000 miles commute I save what, ... 18 gals? (375 gals-357 gals) Next question is it worth ( B/E) the extra costs and depreciations and increased taxation (it would be then be DOUBLE) to get an EPA H of 5% better mpg? One does not even need to do the math to know the answer to that question.

What have I done to it? Other than Dealer TSB's, covered maintenance, I had the DSG oil and DSG filter changed (extended interval 65,000 miles instead of 40,000 miles) with VAG.com calibration. Two rear brake lamps burnt out. Dealer gave me the parts (bulbs/lamps for those in the know) FREE and changed them both out. Not that the parts were expensive nor the procedure hard.

stever · February 2014

Yeah, but I'm jonesing for all the new tech. Not to mention a half dozen more airbags. Seeing a car ad makes me blue.

(And you were supposed to ask - "what's a plug?")

ruking1 · February 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
Yeah, but I'm jonesing for all the new tech. Not to mention a half dozen more airbags. Seeing a car ad makes me blue.

(And you were supposed to ask - "what's a plug?")

OK ! Since I don't have SPARK plugs (they do have GLOW plugs), I will give you a plug and give you that airhead gasser question, what's a plug?

On a more serious note, the "new every two" attitude and probably more importantly execution has never really died, albeit it may be a much smaller population and percentage. What that actually is is beyond my expertise and pay grade. The back drop to this is now, the industry is much more capable of MUCH shorter concept to market products. The industry still has to deal with the average age of the passenger vehicle fleet getting OLDER not younger ! So to repeat some details, the average age of PV light trucks is more like 11.5 years old, going HIGHER. So if the average US driver's yearly mileages of 12,000 to 15,000 miles holds true, reasonable vehicle mileage is = between 138,000 miles to 172,500 miles. Last I read and no longer can find is the salvage rate is app 6 to 8% per year. This would probably be one factor why the total registered passenger vehicles has gone down despite RECORD yearly sales.

In an unrelated WSJ article, I read that 1 in 6 (16%) of MEN of working age (25 to 54) are NOT working. The nexus here, normally those folks would TEND to be car buyers.

I personally am late to the party with an iPhone iPad and I am still in amazement I can watch TV/movies, get the phone to call UP and execute a plethora of stuff and have a face to face chat with clients while driving !! Now I do NOT, but still that is in an 11 year old car !

ruking1 · February 2014

This is an interesting take for a non car oriented magazine 3/13 (23%) TDI's high resale values. Interesting from the standpoint of view that TDI's are only 5% of the passenger vehicle fleet.

autos.yahoo.com/news/13-best-new-cars-of-2014-with-the-highest-resale-value-012612715.html

stever · February 2014

This project truck, at least as seen at the 2014 Chicago Auto Show, is not meant for showrooms.

Nissan Frontier Diesel Runner Powered by Cummins (FAQ)

gagrice · February 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
This project truck, at least as seen at the 2014 Chicago Auto Show, is not meant for showrooms.

[Nissan Frontier Diesel Runner Powered by Cummins

Now that makes more sense than anything so far.

ruking1 · February 2014

A real hot air way of saying "me too" when the time comes.

Since Cummins chose to be a contract vendor to Nissan. It will be interesting if the relationship gets Cummins chops/recognition for being a hot diesel brand, or takes a real back seat to Nissan.

gagrice · February 2014

Cummins may be playing games with Fiat on this one. They have supplied the HD Ram PU engines as long as I can remember. Now Fiat is using a 3rd rate Italian engine maker. Nissan is wise to pick the leader in diesel truck engines as least in the US.

PS
The Frontier is by far the best midsized PU sold in the USA.

nyccarguy · February 2014

@stever

I'd love a diesel X3, but I'll have to dig up $50K 1st;)

ruking1 · February 2014

So how is everyone enjoying this global warming? I have taken to wearing as much or more "arctic" wear in sunny CA, than when I lived near the arctic headquarters of the 10th Mountain Division. (upstate New York)

I used to think heated seats were for wussies. So I am glad two of the three diesels have HEATED seats. Not that they have a nexus with diesels.

stever · February 2014

Sounds like your skiing has been hammered - Mammoth cut salaries by 25% for the month. How long has Donner been closed now? (took tele lessons there in the 80s) Like riding on that manmade snow?

The heck with heated seats; I want a heated steering wheel now.

ruking1 · February 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
Sounds like your skiing has been hammered - Mammoth cut salaries by 25% for the month. How long has Donner been closed now? (took tele lessons there in the mid-90s) Like riding on that manmade snow?

The heck with heated seats; I want a heated steering wheel now.

Yes ! The irony really hits HARD ! It is really a peel me a grape kind of thing to have literally FABULOUS spring skiing in the literal dead of winter ! Not to really cry over spilled milk, but one resort is now reporting a 36 in base after one or two night storms (from 9 in in my last post?_. Right now the forecast calls for 5/6 contiguous storm days. So @ higher elevations they (we all actually) are hoping for 7 ft.

stever · February 2014

I think I now have more than that in my yard (and I'd be thrilled to swap with you). Let's hope you really get dumped to help ease the drought. Otherwise those diesel pumps are going to be working harder trying to find damp in the aquifer.

Michaell · February 2014

@ruking1 said:
Yes ! The irony really hits HARD ! It is really a peel me a grape kind of thing to have literally FABULOUS spring skiing in the literal dead of winter ! Not to really cry over spilled milk, but one resort is now reporting a 36 in base after one or two night storms (from 9 in in my last post?_. Right now the forecast calls for 5/6 contiguous storm days. So @ higher elevations they (we all actually) are hoping for 7 ft.

Here in Denver, the news reported last night that one of our ski resorts in SW Colorado has received 5' of snow in the past 7 days.

I'm hearing about the drought in CA from my parents, who live in SoCal. Does not bode well for the fire season later this year.

stever · February 2014

I think most of Cal's fire trucks for woodland fires are diesel pumpers, dating back to the 50s. (fire.ca.gov pdf file)

jordan40 · February 2014

my ford excursion has a cummins deisel

gagrice · February 2014

@jordan40 said:
my ford excursion has a cummins deisel

That should be a vast improvement over the Powerstroke Diesel it came with or the gas guzzler. A very popular conversion I understand. Do you have the 5.9 Cummins?

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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