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Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    VW certainly is ambitious. I don't think they'll meet their U.S goals though, because they still don't fully understand the market here, or American tastes, and their reputation for quality is at best mediocre. But their plan for "modular engineering", using perhaps 4 basic platforms for all their vehicles, is interesting.

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602

    @MrShift@Edmunds said:
    VW certainly is ambitious. I don't think they'll meet their U.S goals though, because they still don't fully understand the market here, or American tastes, and their reputation for quality is at best mediocre. But their plan for "modular engineering", using perhaps 4 basic platforms for all their vehicles, is interesting.

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602

    VW has just raised the bar again to attract more people to their cars by dropping a year from the maintenance plan. It's now 2 years / 24K miles. Their leases are touted for 42 months which leaves you with 18 months of paying for VW service. If they were in the same league as Honda and Toyota -- not a big deal. My Buick costs me $59 for an oil change and tire rotation. Anyone know what VW charges ?

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    @jayrider said:

    My Buick costs me $59 for an oil change and tire rotation. Anyone know what VW charges ?

    Depnds on what they do, doesn't it? I remember when I used to bring my MINI in for an oil change service and tire rotation, the $130 bucks I got nicked included synthetic oil, the correct factory filter (VERY important on this car), check all fluid levels and top off if necessary, scan the car for codes, fill up the washer tank and a car wash (exterior). Not sure all that is worth $70 bucks extra over what you pay, but I can't easily check transaxle fluids, and I'd have to run to the store and the car wash for the other stuff.

    What ALL automakers have to learn is that SERVICE is going to be the key to future success. There are many dealerships that really need to be whipped into shape. We all know that everyone else knows that Lexus service is generally admired and VW service is not---naturally, many exceptions abound to this blanket statement.

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602

    The service includes a multipoint inspection with a printout. Now, if I take my car in and say "give me the 5000 mile service" that will come in around $200 -- for essentially the same thing.

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165

    Where I live there are two Toyota and Honda dealers nearby. One of each now provides pastries like Panera in the morning. The oil changes aren't any more expensive or different, nor are the mechanics, so I've switched my service dealers. The two dealers with the more customer focus are going to make more money off of me than the other two where I bought the cars originally. So I totally agree with what you are saying and have acted accordingly in my business decisions. When it's time to buy again, I'll buy from these dealers if the price is similar as well. Also, the dealers I originally bought these vehicles from have been bought out by some regional chain that seems more interested in trying to gyp you with unneeded service suggestions than becoming a business partner you can trust. Guess what, despite their regional chain cost advantages, the better customer oriented local dealers are actually taking market share from them. I love it!!!

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited December 2013

    Unless something dramatic happens before year end, VW will sell more cars in China than GM, for the first time in nine years.

    Audi is the leading luxury brand in China.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    VW seems to struggle more in the USA than anywhere else.

    @hpmctorque said:
    Unless something dramatic happens before year end, VW will sell more cars in China than GM, for the first time in nine years.

    Audi is the leading luxury brand in China.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2014

    Can't wait to see what name VW picks for this one. It'll be slotted between the Tiguan and the Touareg. Maybe the Tijuana.

    Production Version of Volkswagen CrossBlue Headed to Showrooms

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Hopefully something that doesn't make my mouth hurt--they need more vowels at the end of their products, you're right----Tiguanni, Touraregino.....

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    "General Motors edged Volkswagen in global sales for 2013, likely securing the slot as the world’s second biggest automaker for the second consecutive year.

    Toyota is expected to maintain its position as the world’s largest automaker for the second consecutive year when it reports global sales later this week."

    General Motors beats Volkswagen in 2013 global sales race (Detroit Free Press)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2014

    This is a fun detour, especially if you're near Tacoma:

    Love Bug: Vintage Volkswagens on display at car museum (NBC News)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    Since it's more relevant to view autos from a global perspective than a national one, the new Big 3 are Toyota, GM and VW, in that order.

    I predict that, with the quality gap narrowing, GM or VW will overtake Toyota as the world's largest vehicle manufacturer. Why? As quality equalizes, it is no longer the powerful differentiator it once was. It's a buyers' market, and Toyota has shown less success in making it's vehicles aspirational. The new Corolla is an excellent example of design mediocrity. It's a good product, but falls short of being exceptional. The Focus, Mazda 3 and Jetta seem like stronger entries; more fun and exciting compacts, or, at a minimum, less dull.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    ANYBODY THINK THIS WILL FLY? Aging hippies, form a line to the right.

    http://www.latescar.com/volkswagen-microbus-2014-price-and-release-date/

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2014

    Oh man, VW is teasing me again with that concept? Wonder what the design will really look like if they actually get there (and they need to do something, having dropped the Routan Grand Caravan).

    Really, I think that site you linked to is just recycling old news. But I can dream.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092

    Early April Fools joke? Haven't seen that one from any mainstream sources. Kind of a fishy site too, like it was generated by a good automatic translator.

    @MrShift@Edmunds said:
    ANYBODY THINK THIS WILL FLY? Aging hippies, form a line to the right.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685

    I think that's old news, since cancelled. No sign of it lately, at least.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    It's not a real car. A February Fool's joke. I think someone photoshopped a few details onto VW's 2001 concept car.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    "Volkswagen of America reported that sales fell 19 percent in January.... VW's January sales of 23,494 units compared to 29,018 a year ago. The Passat's sales last month of 6,236 were off from 8,856 in January 2013, the automaker reported.

    General Motors' sales fell 12 percent in January to 171,486 vehicles compared with the same month a year earlier.

    Toyota reported January sales results of 146,365 vehicles, a 7.2 percent decrease from what it sold in the U.S. in the same month a year earlier."

    Chattanooga-made Passat sales plunge; other auto sales mixed in January (timesfreepress.com)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    @Stever@Edmunds said:
    "General Motors edged Volkswagen in global sales for 2013, likely securing the slot as the world’s second biggest automaker for the second consecutive year.

    GM got a little ahead of itself. Now number 3 in the World.

    Volkswagen AG said it topped rival General Motors Co. for second place among all automakers, selling 9.73 million vehicles in 2013. )Volkswagen AG said Thursday it topped rival General Motors Co. for second place among all automakers, selling 9.73 million vehicles in 2013 over the Detroit automaker's 9.71 million.

    http://www.autospies.com/news/VW-Overtakes-GM-To-Become-Number-Two-In-2013-Global-Sales-79960/

    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/volkswagen-overtakes-general-motors-as-worlds-number-2-car-maker/articleshow/29661703.cms

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685

    But only if you count VW's heavy trucks, which GM doesn't have...

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    Toyota counts their heavy Hino trucks. And that is who VW is out to pass. Should be based on profit and their would be no question who is the biggest in the World.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    Whether VW is #1 or #2 in the world, it's been a phenomenal success.

    I heard on a history program that VW was offered to Henry Ford by the Allies shortly after WWII, for no money, and after evaluating the Beetle, he turned down the offer. The idea was that the deal required Ford to take over the VW facilities and start production. Talk about a missed opportunity! However, I doubt that VW would have been as successful as it was if Henry had taken over the brand.

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2014

    The VW Bug has to be in the top 10 best engineered vehicles of all time. I took my Bug places my 4x4s would get stuck. I would take that over any FWD car ever built. I think VW still has the best engineered vehicles for the segment they own. And they make more money doing it than any other auto maker.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    That's true. Henry Ford turned down the offer of the VW factory (which was, to be fair, in ruins), saying something like "there is no profit in small cars". At the time, he was probably right. The British also turned down ownership of the factory.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    "That's true. Henry Ford turned down the offer of the VW factory (which was, to be fair, in ruins), saying something like "there is no profit in small cars". At the time, he was probably right. The British also turned down ownership of the factory."

    The fact that VW made money suggests that Henry was wrong regarding the profit potential for small cars in Europe. However, the devil may be in the details on this one. For example, you could be correct if VW received subsidies to resume production of the Beetle, under the Marshall Plan or some other aid program, which wasn't available to Ford or the British.

    After WWII, most European car production, from a variety of manufacturers in Germany, France, Italy and the UK consisted of small cars for the European market. Since it was a buyers' market, it's reasonable to assume that the largest of these manufacturers, and even some of the smaller ones, were profitable. Of course, Ford (and GM) were among the larger European manufacturers after WWII, so Ford already had a presence in Europe.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685

    Like you said, Ford probably wanted to stick with what it knew in Europe, and not risk the 'odd' VW approach. It worked fine for Ford, after all.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092

    Wasn't Henry pretty out of touch by 1945-46? If he even really considered it, he probably just saw how slow and clattery it was, and dismissed it. USA moved on from a Model T style basic car for awhile, but Europe needed a new one. Or like you say, maybe Ford (and GM) were content with their own existing products and didn't want to deal with absorbing a new one.

    I don't know if subsidies were part of it - Germany received less than half the ERP funds made available to Britain, and with significantly more population.

    VW might have also been dismissed because the car was as much a [non-permissible content removed] propaganda tool as it was a car, and many might not have wanted to be associated with it. It took some guts to run with it in the early postwar days.

    @hpmctorque said:

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2014

    Less net income, more profits in NA.

    GM earnings down 22% for 2013, but profit-sharing up to $7,500 (Detroit Free Press)

    The Detroit News promoted a different headline:

    GM earned $3.77B in 2013; profit sharing up to $7,500

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2014

    @Stever@Edmunds said:
    Less net income, more profits in NA.

    I wonder who gets the $7500 bonus checks. Should be the guys on the bottom of the totem pole. Notice GM had 500 less hourly employees this year than last. So much for expanding in the US.

    My guess is these bonuses are to keep the UAW hard liners from getting greedy on contracts coming up in 2015. $7500 is the same as a $3.61 per hour raise. No possible way to negotiate that kind of raise.

    I wonder what the VW pro UAW people think they will get with a union contract?

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    @Stever@Edmunds said:
    Less net income, more profits in NA.

    Speaking of GM bonuses.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2014

    The WSJ's Dan Neil dissects the problem with the Passat and VWs lagging US sales.

    "Redesigned for model-year 2011, this generation of Passat represents everything the German giant thought it understood about the American market. [T]he Passat is laying siege to the segment basement, with sales down 6.3% through March.

    In a torrid U.S. market—a March seasonally adjusted rate of 16.3 million, near an all-time high—VWA sold 36,717 vehicles in March, having its head handed to it by, for example, Subaru (44,479). Eleven of VWA's 13 models saw sales decline in the first three months of the year."

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    I am surprised at the lack of interest in the Passat especially. If I was looking for a midsized sedan, it would be at or near the top of my list. The TDI is the only one I would consider. And maybe that is the problem. They don't have a good enough selection of TDI vehicles on the lots. Though the Passat was up in March 16% over last year.

    They also do not have any thing to compete with Subaru in that popular segment. The Tiguan does not offer great economy or price. To me the Forester is a better AWD for the money. Forester 13,846 sold in March, Tiguan 2315 sold in March. I looked at the Tiguan during one of my visits to the dealer. It just does not seem like $6k more of a vehicle over the Forester. VW needs a diesel wagon with AWD to take on that market. Will they build it in TN is the question.

    VW does have a big bright spot. Audi hit its 39th record sales month in a row. The Luxury market is doing very well. Especially Luxury SUVs.

    VW only has one company to beat WW by 2018, and that is Toyota. I think they will do it.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    My wife was checking out Jetta wagon inventory yesterday and couldn't find any that weren't TDIs.

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    It seems I read that 80% of the Sportswagens sold are diesels. There are 156 Sportswagens in a 75 mile radius. 115 are diesels. Of the 730 Jetta sedans only 93 are diesel. Closer to my heart the Touareg only 44 are available. 23 diesels and only one white Lux TDI like mine. And they want $9k more than I paid last August. No Zero Down, no 0% financing. I am thinking in four years when I am ready for a new one, I will be in real good shape on this one.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    "Toyota outsold all other carmakers in 2013 and maintained a lead over Volkswagen and General Motors Co. through the first three months of this year. Both Toyota and Volkswagen have forecast deliveries of at least 10 million vehicles in 2014.

    Safety defects have led to mounting global recalls, including one last month affecting more than 6 million vehicles to fix top sellers such as the Camry sedan and RAV4 sport utility vehicle, and another involving 1.9 million Prius hybrids in February.

    Toyota's sales have increased in the U.S. at a slower pace than the total market in the first four months of 2014 as deliveries slipped 0.2% for the Camry, the top-selling car for the last dozen years. Sales of the Prius, which last underwent a major overhaul in 2009, have slumped 18% this year, putting the company on course for a second-straight year of lost market share."

    Toyota forecasts profit drop as challenges grow (LA Times)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    @Stever@Edmunds said:
    "Toyota outsold all other carmakers in 2013 and maintained a lead over Volkswagen and General Motors Co. through the first three months of this year. Both Toyota and Volkswagen have forecast deliveries of at least 10 million vehicles in 2014.

    The most important factor is profit. VW is more profitable than GM and Toyota combined. VW is the only automaker in the top ten most profitable companies WW. Four Chinese banks, four oil companies, VW and Apple make up the top ten list. GM went broke trying to sell the most cars. Toyota lost their reliability edge trying to become the biggest.

    http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/most-profitable-companies-249258/6/

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Porsche and Ferrari are perfect examples of how profit trumps volume.

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    @MrShift@Edmunds said:
    Porsche and Ferrari are perfect examples of how profit trumps volume.

    It does not hurt VW's bottom line having Porsche. Not to mention VW owns Bentley, Lamborghini and Bugatti with some pretty high price tags. What is really amazing is just how many vehicles they do sell without a full size PU in their lineup. The D3 would all be out of business except for PU trucks sales. If VW does bring the Amarok TDI to the USA, I will trade in my Nissan Frontier.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2014

    A little VW diesel pickup might sell, especially for urban deliveries. But Toyota never really dented the full-size pickup market.

    YTD Sales 2014 (as of april)

    Ford F-Series 236,745
    Chevy Silverado 150,512

    Dodge Ram 133.580

    Toyota Tacoma 49,100

    Toyota Tundra 37,619

    Nissan Titan 4.274

    compared to 2013, big winners are dodge Ram, up 22.5% and the Tundra, up 18.1%

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Funny, the article doesn't mention cupholders once.

    "A special team at Volkswagen Group of America studies U.S. surveys for consumer complaints and recommends changes for models that are sold in the U.S., a trend that is reflected in the 2015 Volkswagen Golf.

    Simply put, what is acceptable in Germany is not necessarily acceptable here.

    "Americans have different expectations," Marc Trahan, group vice president for quality and service at Volkswagen Group of America, told Edmunds during an interview."

    Volkswagen Fine-Tunes Vehicles for U.S. Tastes, Including 2015 Golf

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602

    @stever said:
    Funny, the article doesn't mention cupholders once.

    "A special team at Volkswagen Group of America studies U.S. surveys for consumer complaints and recommends changes for models that are sold in the U.S., a trend that is reflected in the 2015 Volkswagen Golf.

    Simply put, what is acceptable in Germany is not necessarily acceptable here.

    "Americans have different expectations," Marc Trahan, group vice president for quality and service at Volkswagen Group of America, told Edmunds during an interview."

    Volkswagen Fine-Tunes Vehicles for U.S. Tastes, Including 2015 Golf

    I'd worry less about cruise control and more about high quality and less expensive service and parts. In WW II, German tanks were wonders of high tech precision. No parts were interchangeable as new models were introduced. The Russians based their tanks on old designs and and were able to build tanks buy the thousands and keep them running. The Germans had beautiful precision engineered tanks that broke down without extensive maintenance and parts were hard to come buy. Outnumbered 100 to one in the field didn't help either. Teutonic tradition still lives.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    VW Phaeton Coming Back to the USA?

    Well, maybe. It pretty much looks like a re-badged Audi A8 at this point with a much lower MSRP and no more gas-hungry engines.

    Look at the factory! https://www.youtube.com/embed/nd5WGLWNllA?rel=0

  • slorenzenslorenzen Member Posts: 694

    @jayrider said:
    I'd worry less about cruise control and more about high quality and less expensive service and parts. In WW II, German tanks were wonders of high tech precision. No parts were interchangeable as new models were introduced. The Russians based their tanks on old designs and and were able to build tanks buy the thousands and keep them running. The Germans had beautiful precision engineered tanks that broke down without extensive maintenance and parts were hard to come buy. Outnumbered 100 to one in the field didn't help either. Teutonic tradition still lives.

    I remember reading an article about the fuel injection systems on WW2 fighter aircraft. The author stated "why use 10 parts when 200 will do?"

    Fell over laughing... :D

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2014

    That's the very thing that hurt Mercedes when the Lexus LS400 arrived. Their cars were too complex and too expensive to maintain and repair.

    However, the new Phaeton looks to be more of a mainstream product that shares a lot with Audi.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685

    @Mr_Shiftright said:
    That's the very thing that hurt Mercedes when the Lexus LS400 arrived. Their cars were too complex and too expensive to maintain and repair.

    However, the new Phaeton looks to be more of a mainstream product that shares a lot with Audi.

    I can't think of a reason I'd buy it instead of an A8...

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    @texases said:

    To me the Phaeton looks better than the Audi. I have never gotten to where the Audi front mouth was appealing. And the VW will likely be $20k less comparably equipped with the V6 TDI. If Audi would bring back the A4 Allroad with a TDI without the fish mouth. I would be looking hard at it.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685

    @gagrice said:
    And the VW will likely be $20k less comparably equipped with the V6 TDI.

    In that case, I can see it. Last go round there was about zero price difference for the V8 versions. (0 for the A8, $3k for the A8L).

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    @texases said:

    Maybe VW learned their lesson. The Touareg TDI is a lot less than the Cayenne built on the same chassis and in the same factory. I know the last shot VW took at the Phaeton was a USA flop. Hard to imagine they build them just to show off that fancy factory. Hard to argue with VW as the most profitable automaker in the World by far.

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