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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,902

    @nyccarguy said: robr2

    You are right, they might not have the $5K to lay out for MSDs, but they'll "put down" $2995 as a cap cost reduction not realizing that if their car gets stolen or totaled at any point during the lease they loose that money.

    Don't forgot the MSD's are on top of the capital cost reduction. They can't get the $300 a month deal without the $2995 and they couldn't afford the $410 or so monthly lease without the CCR.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093
    edited January 29

    I would NOT put any cap cost reduction money into this; I would, however, consider MSD's since you do get it back at the end of the lease -- cap cost reduction money is gone forever and even worse if the lease has no GAP coverage to account for the delta between value and owed (the gap between, so to speak) should the leased vehicle be totaled.

    If you can or want to put money down on the lease and it gets you where you want to be, I have no issue with it. However, if you've got that money, I would assume you also can justify lighting your cigars with paper money instead of matches (wooden, of course).

    Seriously, money to lower a lease payment is somewhat hard to justify these days. If $2,995 lowers the mo pay by $100 for 36 months, wouldn't it be acceptable to put the money in an account and know that at least you've got 30 of the next 36 payments (the $100 difference, that is) accounted for?

    Let's not assume we know how better to spend someone else's money.

    I've learned a lot from Edmunds and Audi World, etc; I used to think putting something toward the lease was at least OK. Now I think differently -- but that is certainly in part due to the participation of many folks here. I found my stupidity is incurable, I found my ignorance could be cured, however.


  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,770


    Right again!


    @markincincinnati brought up a great point about GAP insurance. It's automatically written into every auto leasing and financing contract in New York State. So there's another "if" that could have potentially cost me more money by leasing from a dealer here in Connecticut. Depending on the dealer, they charge $400 - $700 for this optional protection. So between the high doc fee, the GAP insurance, the possibility of being offered significantly less on the trade, and even a little more on the price of the car, maybe it would be a wash.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,770


    When I leased my BMW, the financing rate at 0.9% was significantly cheaper than the money factor I'm paying to lease (somewhere in the 4% range). Where I believe I'll come out ahead is in the end. According to my car's leasing contract, it will be worth around in the $28K range. According to "the auctions," my car with 50K miles will be worth much less.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,966

    @Bradd, I know I wouldn't pay 28K at the dealer for your car with 50K on it. And that would be a refreshed CPO. So certainly wouldn't be buying it out (as it sits) for that much!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (mine)

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,770


    Especially when there are cars very similar to mine with 1/2 the miles listed for $25K CPO.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,966

    @nyccarguy said: stickguy

    Especially when there are cars very similar to mine with 1/2 the miles listed for $25K CPO.

    well yeah, there is that too.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (mine)

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,648

    @robr2 said: Don't forgot the MSD's are on top of the capital cost reduction. They can't get the $300 a month deal without the $2995 and they couldn't afford the $410 or so monthly lease without the CCR.

    The price shoppers will plunk down 3K to get that 50K car for 410/m but the people who really understand how it all works wouldn't do that. Lately BMW has been offering some "incentive cash." $750 for having BMSCCA account, $500 for being a USAA member, and currently BMW has $750 back on all 3 series. So right there you are talking $2250, this will cover fee's and first month payment, and a slight cap reduction (remember all this is ZERO out of pocket.) then add 7 MSDs, so basically you could just walk into the dealer, with $3500 and walk out with a payment of $540/m on that 50K car, and at the end of your lease get that $3500 back. Those 7 MSD's well save you roughly $50/m x 36 = $1800. So you could walk into and have a cap reduction that doesn't cost you a cent but helps to lower the payments slightly. When I did my deal on my 320, I was very temped to lease since BMW was giving me 2K built credit and 1K for my grad degree, a total of 3K, plus add $2400 for 7 MSDs, my payments would have been $280/m.

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,017

    A few days back someone asked the question about buying a Chinese manufactured BMW or something like that. I replied that I wouldn't anytime in the foreseeable future. This is one of the reasons why:

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,648

    @m6user said: A few days back someone asked the question about buying a Chinese manufactured BMW or something like that. I replied that I wouldn't anytime in the foreseeable future. This is one of the reasons why:

    Besides that, if you have ever seen a Chinese car up close you would have another reason not to buy.. I think it was 2009 I went to the North American Autoshow in Detroit, It's a must show to see, the Chinese were showing off cars for the first time. It was so hard to look at the car without laughing. The paint jobs on the cars were horrible, orange peel all over the car, the fit and finish was really bad, the gaps in body panels were worse then the late 60's and early 70's GM cars. The designs were blatantly stolen from other car manufactures. One car company had a rip off MB SLK, It was scary to see...

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,017

    I'm going to the Chicago auto show on Monday. I go every year. It's bigger than the Detroit show but has less "introductions" but usually has a couple of new intros that the Detroit show doesn't have. I would not trust loved ones to Chinese built cars. It's bad enough that some parts are sourced there now. Just hope the car companies that are buying are doing very good due diligence. I'm sure Aston Martin thought they were. Scary.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,648

    @m6user give us a report what you see, I read Ford will have the new mustang out and open for people to sit in, Also BMW will have the 4 series convertible there. I wonder if Nissan will have the maxlma concept there as well as the new version of the 510...

  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,597

    The new Mustang did not look impressive on a television report on from the Chicago Auto Show. Maybe in person?

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,017

    I think some people are turned off by the grill as it reminds them too much of the new Fusion. I don't have strong feelings about it either way. I like the side profile as it reminds me more of the 67 Fastback. Add in major interior upgrades, independent rear susp., new 2.3 turbo with higher mpg, wider and lower......etc. Sounds like a pretty nice package.

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,648

    I have to agree, the Ecoboost 2.3 sounds like an impressive engine, and of course the turners will have a field day with that engine too, in the back of my mind I can see having a 2015 GT with the track package...

  • dash5dash5 Posts: 418

    We should see the Jaguar entry into this class pretty soon:

    Jaguar’s new small sedan to take on the likes of the BMW 3-Series and Mercedes-Benz C-Class will go on sale in 2015 and be the first model spawned from an advanced aluminum structure known as the iQ[Al]. However, we won’t have to wait too long to see the car revealed, according to the latest reports.

    Just-Auto, based on an interview with Jaguar design boss Ian Callum, is reporting that the new car, rumored to be called the XS, will be revealed as early as this summer. This suggests that we could see it, or at least a concept version, unveiled at the Goodwood Festival of Speed in late June, the Brit event where last year Jaguar presented its Project 7 concept car.

    During the same interview, Callum is also reported to have said that Jaguar is planning facelifts for several models, including the recently launched F-Type range. Though he didn’t confirm plans for any other models, we know due to test mule sightings that Jaguar is also working on a new crossover as well as a next-generation XF.

    As for the XS, it is based on the aforementioned iQ[Al] structure, a lightweight aluminum design that will incorporate a new family of four-cylinder engines called the Hotfire series. Jaguar has also designed its iQ[Al] structure to be able to accommodate its 3.0-liter V-6 already offered in the F-Type range.

  • konacougkonacoug Kailua-KonaPosts: 194

    Just my .02 cents on MSD's and leasing....MSD's saved me about $40 per month in payments, so $40 x 36 = $1440, for an investment of $2450, pretty nice non-taxable rate of return. I could of bought if I wanted to, even a 5 series...but, I live in Hawaii, I don't want to think about the long term maintenance, the effect of the salt & sun and I like driving a new car. So, the next BMW, in about 2 years will be ED and I am already looking forward to that experience. As far as gaining equity, I'm just not interested, I have better things to spend my money on.

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,176

    I'm happy to see flight still test driving cars with no intention of purchase (catty cts)- others are going to auto shows - and others replacing ugly cars (yes TL lovers) to something more sexy. After having an Infiniti g for 39400 miles I recently (2 days ago) swapped for a 13 slightly used and nicely discounted audi s4. Will report back on how its behaving- very impressed by both acceleration, and technology in the new rig. Also its very quiet in comfort mode vs the Japanese version. I will say this about my old G - no problems - a great car for the money and very nice highway cruiser. The audi while very nice has a lot to live up to given its inflated price- will report back as the miles pile up.

    Drive like you live

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,770


    Congrats on the S4! Enjoy it!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 1,648

    @konacoug said: Just my .02 cents on MSD's and leasing....MSD's saved me about $40 per month in payments, so $40 x 36 = $1440, for an investment of $2450, pretty nice non-taxable rate of return.

    The best part of the MSD is the fact you get your deposits back at the end of the lease, so you saved money on money returned.. It is really a no brainier for people who lease.. BTW, the ED is really the only way to go, we are planing on a ED in 2015 with a Performance Center pick up.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    edited February 13

    @nyccarguy said: sweendogy

    Congrats on the S4! Enjoy it!

    Now sweendogy will know what we mean by the Infiniti G being "growly" as compared to other engines, and also why we love driving German cars. Hopefully he also won't see any of the legendary German reliability issues as compared to most Asian makes!

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,176

    @tlong- the growl while louder then a German sedan that costs a minimum of 10k more was one I actually loved while pushing up an on ramp- and knew every time I heard that growl I was going to pass most cars as I entered. I hope I don't see the German dragons because like I mentioned earlier the g had no issues.

    4 days old to me- its a tight sedan- sure the s4 trim is nice - the technology and dash layout very tight- the buttons near the shifter and toggle buttons all over the steering wheel and stalks are way over the top and take away from driving. I wanted one with the rear sports diff and waited to get this one- haven't noticed it yet- but others have posted its a must. Time will tell- car in the snow with winter tires is a real cat, can't wait for the summer as I will slap 19' slicks on.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766

    I can understand why some people would like the growl, it's just not my thing. I had an A4 way back in '98-'04 and loved that car, but it started having some reliability issues. My '05 TL which I still drive has been close to flawless at nearly 140K now. But I miss the Audi driving dynamics...

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,686

    The growl of the V8, that is one of the things I miss most about my recently departed Jag XK...

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • My second new S4 came in late last month -- and I'm loving it! OK, OK, not literally another actual car, rather the Audi break-in part one (~5,000 miles) and a check up and oil change at the dealer.

    This 2014 Audi S4 is like every other Audi I've had since 1977 -- you end up getting a new car (on the day you pick it up) and then you get another "new car" at 5,000 and around 10,000 miles as the engine seems to really get stronger and stronger.

    We've had the worst winter here in SW Ohio in what seems like decades (some local weather types have said this has been one of our worst in over 20 years) and I felt no need to swap tires. The all-seasons that the car came with had zero problems.

    My wife's SQ5 (purchased about 6 weeks or so after my S4) has 20" Continental Extreme DWS all seasons (UHP too) and she's has no traction issues either. I watch the man screaming QUATTRO!!!! on the commercial told from the POV of a tow-truck driver and we are living proof of the prowess of the quattro AWD system.

    Sweendogy, I suspect there isn't too much different between your 2013 S4 and my '14, other than the fact that you were able to pay less -- I hope your car is under warranty and is CPO'd, which should at least provide you with the peace of mind (financially) you want. I'll bet any repairs on an S4 out of warranty will be breathtakingly expensive (shudder.)

    I finally saw my first SQ5 (other than my wife's) a couple of days ago -- and, finally, finally, saw my first Q50 at long last. Boy, the sales on that one must be slow; I've seen several Lexus IS's though, making me think that one has been a heckuva lot more successful in the market.

    The new TLX (show car) actually seems pretty attractive -- although I don't really miss my '12 TL, I don't have any real complaints about it now that it's gone -- the S4 is a totally different experience, but, to my dying day, I do think Acura's TL SH-AWD was their version of an S4 (for a lot less $).

    I sat in an S6 at the dealer recently -- now that may be my new Batmobile -- but, hey, for $80,000+ it ought to be.

    Anyone have the sales figures for 2013 and so far in 2014 for our list of ELLPS cars?

    I'd love to see how the IS, Q50, TL, A4/S4, etc did and are selling.

    Drive it like you live. ;)

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,176

    Mark - from my understanding the 14 s4 came with standard smart key access and maybe on other item items - on reliability I know audi has gotten way better, but as of right now I have plenty of warrantee ahead.

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,093
    edited February 18

    The ONLY Audi I had that really, truly SCARED me, with respect to reliability, durability and co$t to keep post-warranty, was my 1997 A8. The thing, in warranty thankfully, kept having failure after failure of "little and medium" components. I didn't have engine or transmission problems, but I suspect things like the motors (and it had a bunch of them) that controlled the seats, seat belt height and on and on, just kept failing (and being replaced again and again.)

    My subsequent Audi was a 2000 A6 4.2, which had brake rotor issues -- but nothing else other than routine mntce to speak of; same thing with my 2001 A6 4.2, brake rotors and everything else was solid.

    Since then, my 2003 allroad, 2005 A6 3.2, 2009 A4 2.0T and my current 2014 S4 all seemed to me (pretty early on the S4 though) to be reliable. My 2005 A6, which I kept to about 66,000 miles as I recall, also would make me say "durable." Yet, these days with several of the Japanese maker's cars easily going 150,000 miles with "routine" mntce, 66K miles hardly is proof positive.

    One of the people I work with has a 2005 BMW 5 series and he did buy the extended SERVICE package when he purchased the car new. This was NOT a warranty -- just an extended "factory" mntce policy. After 50K miles, these German cars often require wholesale replacement of "stuff" in the name of service (maintenance, i.e.)

    Audi, too, offers extended mntce (for a price) and there is some procedure you can go through to get your own car CPO'd (again, for a price) which takes the warranty to 100,000 miles (up to 6 years from first date of use). After 100K miles, however, you're on your own.

    Here is the thing my friend has found with his BMW -- with his extended service contract in hand, he was able to have a fully paid off car with no added service charges for about 2 years. Then, after the service contract died, he did have some on-going (fairly expensive) service or repairs (it is hard to know, sometimes what is "broken" and what is just "time to replace"), but the cost of the repairs at MAX was $1,400 and typically was $100-$300 -- and didn't actually happen frequently. So, the cost of having a very well maintained, comfortable, good performing 2005 5 series was, at most, $2,000 in one year, typically half that.

    When I get in his 2005 BMW, I can tell it isn't as up to date (with respect to the electronics for instance) as a 2014 Audi S4, but overall it is still clearly a very nice performance/luxury car that when detailed looks in near showroom condition and is cheap to own.

    I'm looking forward to the latter -- even though I do love to keep up with all the new-tech.

    I'm driving my wife's 2014 SQ5 Prestige today -- wow, in some respects I like it better than my S4! Of course the S4 has the S-tronic transmission which has to be driven to be believed.


  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,685

    @markcincinnati said: The ONLY Audi I had that really, truly SCARED me, with respect to reliability, durability and co$t to keep post-warranty, was my 1997 A8.

    I'd be afraid of any of those top-of the line Eurocars out of warranty too. The complex systems always turn up on the A8s, 7ers and S-Classes before they migrate to lesser models. Apparently by the time they go downscale they're pretty much de-bugged. I'm on my third out-of-warranty German car including a 5 Series that now has 150K on it and has only had one expensive failure (Vanos Control Module- $1200). I could be wrong about all this but I've been driving nice cars for the cost of run-of-the mill ones for a decade and a half..

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,266

    there's a BIG difference when it's been YOUR car for 150K, and when it's been someone else's for 150K.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,673

    I lucked out, the VANOS solenoids on my wife's 2009 328i went south but the CPO warranty covered it for $50. The DISA valve died at 159K on the 2004 X3, but at that age and mileage you have to expect a hiccup every so often. For some reason I like the X3 more than the 328i, which is atypical since my other favorites are my '02 and Club Sport...

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

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