Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

robr2 · February 2014

@flightnurse said:
I don't think BMW has officially called this a 2 series. With all that BMW has put into renaming
their cars and such, I don't see this staying a "2" series.

Someone better call marketing then:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/2series/active_tourer/2014/keep_informed/index.html

andys120 · February 2014

@flightnurse said:
I don't think BMW has officially called this a 2 series. With all that BMW has put into renaming their cars and such, I don't see this staying a "2" series.

All what? This whole renaming scheme has turned into a collosal mess but I guess it's fair to point out that BMW is hardly the only automaker that can't come up with consistent model names. Then there's Lincoln whose model names are too consistent (everything is an MK-Something.)

flightnurse · February 2014

@robr2 said:
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/2series/active_tourer/2014/keep_informed/index.html

LOL... Oh well....

Michaell · February 2014

Isn't there going to be a 4-series "grand coupe" as well, like the 6-series? Isn't that just a fancy name for a sedan?

I think the marketing folks at BMW are splitting hairs.

kyfdx · February 2014

@robr2 said:
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/2series/active_tourer/2014/keep_informed/index.htm

l

That's BMW's international website, not the BMWUSA website. (even though it's in English)

That doesn't mean it won't happen here, but there you go...

robr2 · February 2014

Yes there will be a 4 series Gran Coupe. The difference is that the Gran Coupes have a lower roof line than traditional sedans.

dino001 · February 2014

@Michaell@Edmunds said:
Isn't there going to be a 4-series "grand coupe" as well, like the 6-series? Isn't that just a fancy name for a sedan?

Yes and I'm quite excited about it. It will have a rear hatch, just like GT, but it will be lower to the ground, i.e. much more sporty in driving experience. Unlike 3-series wagon, it will be available as 335 and my understanding is RWD, not just AWD, as both GT and wagon. On paper and pictures, 435i Sports Line (red exterior, black w/red stiching interior, red accents, high gloss inlays), may really be my next car. Will see how it will really look and feel when it comes.

robr2 · February 2014

I wonder if all the models that BMW is/will be offering will start to confuse potential customers?

I guess that's why the are dumping salespeople and hiring "geniuses"?

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Being a tech genius is not the same as being a salesman. Many of us have experienced smart people who were lousy teachers.

robr2 · February 2014

BMW doesn't want salespeople. They want geniuses who can explain the tech in BMW's in a clean, low pressure, stark environment - like Apple stores - to people who are used to shopping on-line.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

But put yourself in the place of the dealership owner, with his massive investment. Apple stores are factory stores, not franchises. I'm not sure $500--$2000 products scale up to $50,000 products.

stickguy · February 2014

You need both. Someone to part the suckers with 50-100K, and someone that can actually teach them to use it. Age of specialization.

Even the Jetta my son got took a good half hour for the sales guy to walk through the basics of how stuff worked. And we know most people would never dream of cracking open the owners Manual.

robr2 · February 2014

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
But put yourself in the place of the dealership owner, with his massive investment. Apple
stores are factory stores, not franchises. I'm not sure $500--$2000 products scale up to
$50,000 products.

...and dealership owners know that the brand requires regular updates to the showroom both inside and out. This new look will just be the next iteration of BMW showrooms. In fact, dealerships are rewarded with more hot selling cars and incentives to keep their showrooms up to date.

kyfdx · February 2014

My local BMW dealer already employs a "delivery specialist", that isn't a salesperson. They go over the car with the new buyer, pair the cell phones with the bluetooth, etc, etc... The salesperson shows them to the car, introduces the delivery specialist, then checks back when they are ready to go..

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

That's a smart move, and eliminates early "come-backs" out of confusion.

flightnurse · February 2014

@kyfdx@Edmunds said:
My local BMW dealer already employs a "delivery specialist", that isn't a salesperson. They go over the car with the new buyer, pair the cell phones with the bluetooth, etc, etc... The salesperson shows them to the car, introduces the delivery specialist, then checks back when they are ready to go..

Yes the dealership I go to has 3 of these people on all the time. It could take up to an hour to show people all th e features and how to use them.... Smart move for BMW, but a little over due.

qbrozen · February 2014

BMW dealer paired my phone for me, and that was about it.

Nissan salesman TRIED to show me how to use the Leaf, but that failed. He didn't know how to use most of the features.

Thing is, I just had an issue this weekend in the T&C that would never have been resolved in Intro 101. I got a flat tire. There is no way in hell I would have ever been able to find and remove the spare tire from under the car if it weren't for the owner's manual (which was thankfully in the car). Even after removing the center console and lowering the spare to the ground using the special tool, I still didn't know how to get the damned cable off the spare, and even the owner's manual left that part out. Eventually got the job done, but not without alot of frustration.

andys120 · February 2014

@dino001 said:
Yes and I'm quite excited about it. It will have a rear hatch, just like GT, but it will be lower to the ground, i.e. much more sporty in driving experience. Unlike 3-series wagon, it will be available as 335 and my understanding is RWD, not just AWD, as both GT and wagon. On paper and pictures, 435i Sports Line (red exterior, black w/red stiching interior, red accents, high gloss inlays), may really be my next car. Will see how it will really look and feel when it comes.

It was news to me that they would make the Gran Sport a hatchback but I discovered this online>

andys120 · February 2014

Just to keep us thoroughly confused, there will also be a 3 Series GT with a hatch>

I hope they don't go broke with all these segment overlaps

dino001 · February 2014

@andys120 said:
Just to keep us thoroughly confused, there will also be a 3 Series GT with a hatch>

It already is here, last six months. I think, once GC is here and you look at them side by side, you'll see difference that is large enough to understand there is a real choice. GT is a peoplemover, large legroom, softer suspension, standard AWD, etc. - it was made for all those who want sporty BRAND, but [non-permissible content removed] about the rear seat, or "horrible hard suspension" in a sporty CAR. GC is more driver's car with SOME room for other people and improved cargo space, available as RWD. It is for people who know exactly what a "sporty coupe" really means (I said "sporty", not "sports"), but just want incremental (read limited) improvement in people and cargo moving abilities vs. traditional coupe.

Think 5-series GT vs 6-series GC. Those are quite a bit different vehicles for different customers.

robr2 · February 2014

@andys120 said:
Just to keep us thoroughly confused, there will also be a 3 Series GT with a hatch>

I hope they don't go broke with all these segment overlaps

Where's the required Hoffmeister kink??

andys120 · February 2014

@robr2 said:
Where's the required Hoffmeister kink??

Maybe BMW is tired of looking like all the brands that have copied "The Kink".

nyccarguy · February 2014

@kyfdx

When the previous generation 7 series was introduced in 2002, I actually interviewed for a position at the BMW dealer in Manattan to become an "iDrive Delivery Specialist." I didn't get the job because I questioned the way I'd be paid. It was to be a $200 per week base and then I'd get paid more based on a CSI score. I asked how my pay would be affected if someone's iDrive crashed before try got their survey. That was a chance I couldn't take living in Manhattan trying to support myself.

@qbrozen

My Dad had an '07 X5 which was the 1st car BMW introduced with the "beer tap shifter." One morning in a snow storm, he drove over a 2 x 4 (that he couldn't see). The "low coolant" light went on, so he pulled over, shut the truck off, and looked to see if there was any coolant spewing out from underneath it. He lifted the hood and everything looked OK. He fired the X5 back up and was about to head to the dealer, when he looked down at the dash and the low coolant light wasn't on anymore. So he continued on his way to work.

Now I have to tell you that my Dad travels back and forth to work with his 2 Great Danes. He keeps a piece of plywood over the folded rear seats to keep his truck cleaner.

Anyway, its snowing, it's 6:30 AM, and my Dad's X5 literally shuts off in the middle of the Tappan Zee Bridge. I'm cleaning off my Prelude getting ready to go to work and I see he keeps calling me. Maybe he plans to tell me about an accident on the way (we work together)? I listen to the voice mail, he says: "call me, I'm stuck on the bridge."

I call him back and he tells me the story, then asks: "how do I get this thing into neutral so the thruway authority can load it on the flatbed?" He checks the owner's manual. Without the owner's manual we sold have never figured out:

Remove the cup holder, remove the piece under the cup holder, remove red "T" key from the spare tire compartment. Stick the red "T" key into the square hole underneath the cup holders and twist to release the transmission so vehicle can be loaded on to flatbed.

Just a few problems, he had to get out of the car in the snow on a bridge (cars flying by on the driver's side & the Hudson River on the passenger side). Open the rear lift gate to get to the "T" key where the spare tire is seems easy enough, except it was under a piece of plywood perfectly cut to fit the rear of the X5. The tow truck drivers from the NYS Thruway Authority can't help him because every time they try to help my Dad pick up the plywood, his 140 lb Great Danes start barking and scare the pants off the poor guys.

roadburner · February 2014

@nyccarguy: Another reason to despise the beer tap. To me it feels flimsy and is non-intuitive. It is a classic example of BMW hell-bent on fixing something that wasn't broken- "Ja, ve vill be different because ve can, you stupid Amerikaners..."

graphicguy · February 2014

@roadburner said:
nyccarguy: Another reason to despise the beer tap. To me it feels flimsy and is non-intuitive. It is a classic example of BMW hell-bent on fixing something that wasn't broken- "Ja, ve vill be different because ve can, you stupid Amerikaners..."

You'll get no argumet about that from me. Counterintuitive is being kind regarding their shifter. Eventually, many years later, they usually get it right (i.e. iDrive). But, it takes years of customers telling them they got it wrong to begin with for them to correct their mistakes.

flightnurse · February 2014

I find the comments about the new shifter interesting. I don't have a problem with it, yeah, at first it was odd, but now, I have no problems. Like anything else humans do not like change, but once we get use to the change, we are fine...

roadburner · February 2014

Change doesn't bother me- it is change for the sake of change that I find irritating. Sure, you can adjust to to the beer tap, but in what way is it an improvement over the shift lever it replaced? It's merely another example of Munich's focus on bells and whistles. Meanwhile, the driving experience that built BMW's modern legacy continues to devolve into mediocrity.

dino001 · February 2014

Beer tap shifter allowed them to release some space in center console for storage and decent cupholder. Regular shifter has larger range of movement and blocks more space. That's the story I heard from a salesman, anyway.

andys120 · February 2014

@dino001 said:
Beer tap shifter allowed them to release some space in center console for storage and decent cupholder. Regular shifter has larger range of movement and blocks more space. That's the story I heard from a salesman, anyway.

Next thing you know they'll move the shifter to the steering column-50s style. Mercedes has already done this and they practically invented the console shift for autoboxes.

Just shoot me now.

sweendogy · February 2014

I've been gone for a while - new format and badges? Really. The one cool thing is the search has gotten better - @graphicguy- in another forum Sept2013 - something's never change

sweendogy · February 2014

I just earned a photogenic badge- yeAh - who are they marketing this new format to?

stickguy · February 2014

@sweendogy said:
I just earned a photogenic badge- yeAh - who are they marketing this new format to?

Not Edmunds. Just part of the product they are using. I doubt they are trying to focus on 15 YOs now.

and while some people are still cranky about some feature or other being eliminated or just working differently, IMO overall it is a huge improvement. At least now you can easily load pictures, and every time I come here it actually opens and pages load quickly.

laurasdada · February 2014

Re: BMW beer tap shifter. How do you feel about the Jag hockey puck shifter? I'm still getting used to it. Son thinks it's cool...

roadburner · February 2014

@laurasdada said:
Re: BMW beer tap shifter. How do you feel about the Jag hockey puck shifter? I'm still getting used to it. Son thinks it's cool...

At least the Jaguar shifter is relatively easy to figure out, although I'd dread the day when the car fires up but the knob refuses to elevate.

I remember the year BMW introduced the beer tap; at the BMW CCA Oktoberfest BMW NA had several test drive cars and the BMW reps running the show had to spend a minute or two with each member before their drive explaining how the shifter worked. That is just ridiculous. Aside from the space saving justification given earlier no one has been able to explain how the beer tap is superior to a conventional automatic shift lever.

I would not be surprised if BMW's designers get bored and decide to steal a page from Ford's Edsel playbook- and put all the shift controls on the steering wheel hub...

robr2 · February 2014

Please - don't call any of them shifters. They are gear selectors. IMHO, the BMW beer tap and the similarly dainty MB column selector as well as the Jaguar/Audi wheel and Lincoln buttons are different solely for the sake of being different.

BTW - does anyone really needed the heated arm rest being offered in the next E class?

ivan_99 · February 2014

@robr2 said:
Please - don't call any of them shifters. They are gear selectors. IMHO, the BMW beer tap and the similarly dainty MB column selector as well as the Jaguar/Audi wheel and Lincoln buttons are different solely for the sake of being different.

BTW - does anyone really needed the heated arm rest being offered in the next E class?

and...they are not head rests but head restraints...

laurasdada · February 2014

@robr2 said:
Please - don't call any of them shifters.

Aye, Jag notes that the rising shifter (and I'm told you can still use it even if it doesn't rise, it should still twist in place) and rotating vents are part of the "handshake" to personalize the car to the driver. It is a fun show, but as I get closer to warranty expiration I'll probably set the vents to remain open. Just found out the '02 Lexus needs and engine rebuild...or new engine...awaiting more details. Ugh.

Michaell · February 2014

@laurasdada said:
Just found out the '02 Lexus needs and engine rebuild...or new engine...awaiting more details. Ugh.

What happened? I thought Toyota / Lexus brands were uber-reliable. Only 12 years of use before an engine rebuild?

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

that's mighty rare unless someone overheated it and fried it?

laurasdada · February 2014

I don't drive this car regularly, but have noted oil has been "disappearing" for a while (since wife/daughter don't check the oil, even though I've implored them to do so, I check it whenever I can), no obvious leaks. I had it checked today, fouled plugs oil in combustion chambers. I'm told it will be a pretty $ to further diagnose, find out what is causing the internal leak, gasket, crack... Just put a bunch of $ into the car: ABS sensors and vapor recovery cannister. Was the wife's car, now daughters and plan to teach son to drive in it at the end of the year. I've well maintained it, with regulare oil changes and following Lexus maintenance schedule, only 141,000 miles... But, it is costing $ every year for something... I don't know, clean it up, trade it on a newer used Subie or something... Nuts.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Oh you need to go somewhere else--a simple cylinder leakdown test should diagnose the oil consumption issue.

laurasdada · February 2014

Thanks, I only have very basic mechanical knowledge. I trust the shop I use, what/how does the leakdown test work?

m6user · February 2014

@laurasdada said:
I don't drive this car regularly, but have noted oil has been "disappearing" for a while (since wife/daughter don't check the oil, even though I've implored them to do so, I check it whenever I can), no obvious leaks. I had it checked today, fouled plugs oil in combustion chambers. I'm told it will be a pretty $ to further diagnose, find out what is causing the internal leak, gasket, crack... Just put a bunch of $ into the car: ABS sensors and vapor recovery cannister. Was the wife's car, now daughters and plan to teach son to drive in it at the end of the year. I've well maintained it, with regulare oil changes and following Lexus maintenance schedule, only 141,000 miles... But, it is costing $ every year for something... I don't know, clean it up, trade it on a newer used Subie or something... Nuts.

Any car, even a "bulletproof" one, will start to cost money every year after 10 yrs old and over 100k miles. If it's less than a couple of car payments you're still doing pretty well. If in fact you need an engine rebuild, you got extremely unlucky if it was being taken care of. Many(no brands mentioned for obvious reasons) will start costing a lot of money shortly after warranty elapses. Sometimes age is a factor as well as miles.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Basically you pump compressed air into each cylinder (top dead cener) with a special gauge and measure the % of leakdown (air leaking past worn parts). A variation of 10% between cylinders is probably not acceptable. THEN you actually listen for where the air is leaking...if you see bubbles in your coolant, you have a head gasket leak--if you hear air rusing out of your intake, you have intake valve or valve seal or guide problems; if you hear out of the exhaust pipe, you have an exhaust valve problem, and if you hear air coming out of your oil filler cap or dipstick hole, you have ring and piston problems.

You can learn a lot from a cylinder leakdown test.

laurasdada · February 2014

First car I've ever owned past ~7 years, knew it would cost $ to keep going, but not this much, M6user! Especially as it has been maintained. Bonus paid, bonus spent.

Thanks, Mr. Shiftright, I googled the test after you recommended. I'll talk to the shop again, but they left me estimates of new, remfg and used engines. None too appealing, but in the past year spent a fair amount of $ maintaining/repairing the little darlin'. Including shiny new Yoko Ono tires... So, tough to just set it free. But, what happens next? My guess: tranny!

Man, every time I get new shoes for a car, I end up trading it shortly thereafter. Put cool Vredesteins on the TL, then traded for the XK. Shod the XK with Conti DWS, traded shortly for the XF. Yoko Ono the RX and...

andys120 · February 2014

@m6user said:
Any car, even a "bulletproof" one, will start to cost money every year after 10 yrs old and over 100k miles. If it's less than a couple of car payments you're still doing pretty well. If in fact you need an engine rebuild, you got extremely unlucky if it was being taken care of. Many(no brands mentioned for obvious reasons) will start costing a lot of money shortly after warranty elapses. Sometimes age is a factor as well as miles.

While it's certain;y true that it costs more to maintain an older car it's not a given that they become money pits after 100K/10years. A well maintained modern car should have a "service life" of at least 150k and 15 years before it becomes cheaper to scrap it and buy new.

There are of course exceptions, my Dad's '00 Deville had a cracked block at 11yrs/67K. I've never had an engine failure and one of my current rides has almost twice that mileage.

roadburner · February 2014

@andys120

The only car with less than 110,000 miles in my garage is my wife's 2009 E90 3er. The only car that has had a couple of expensive repairs is the 2004 X3 with 159,000 on the clock. My 1995 3er track rat only needs fluids, brakes and tires between scheduled services.

One other point; if you own your vehicles free and clear the lack of a car payment(s) will offset a lot of repair expenses. The average car payment is $460 with an average term of 65 months. I budget $500 per month for repairs/maintenance on all six of my cars.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Well if the shop can't tell you what's wrong with the engine I don' see why you should listen to their expensive solutions. If it's sucking oil through valve guides or seals, that's a bad reason to replace an entire engine.

markcincinnati · February 2014

5,000 Miles Down the Road

A friend of mine, a marketing executive for a national software firm, always buys BMW’s and claims Audis are exclusively for “left-brainers” (I started out life as a computer programmer, so maybe there is something to that) because they appeal to technical types (tech-weenies, to quote my friend); you know these folks, those people who not only can create elaborate spreadsheets with impossible formulas, but also who can write actual computer programs as well. My wise-guy friend claims, even though Audi engines, transmissions and sumptuous interiors are either proclaimed by the motoring press to be “the best” or at least “tied for the top,” Audis remain soul-less machines, sorely lacking the all-important emotional hook to keep “serious” car people interested and perhaps entertained. They (Audis) are extremely competent and confidence inspiring pieces of machinery, but they somehow are not the stuff that inspires passionate prose – even though they are often the winners of three, four and five-way motoring press “comparo” reports.

Although I, apparently, am in the minority who do not doubt Audi’s soul can be seen, heard and felt in its cars, I now present an S4 update now that I have passed 5,000 miles – much of it being driven in sub-freezing weather and on snow and ice-covered roads.

The Audi in question is an Ibis white 2014 S4 Premium Plus model with the 7-speed S-Tronic transmission, 18” wheels shod with all-season tires, MMI/Navigation+, B&O audio, Magma Red Napa leather seats, carbon fiber trim, Audi side assist and Audi Care. I guess, perhaps I even wish, I would have gone for the Prestige model, now that I think of it, just for the articulating headlights. Of course now that I know how inexpensive the sport differential is, I should have insisted on getting that, too. With shipping and Audi Care, the pre-tax price was $57+K. As a member of the Audi Club of North America, I got an “automatic” 6% off the sticker, and as an Ohio resident, had to pay 6.5% sales tax. I put no money down and leased the car. I plan to buy the car and the Audi extended service package, if it proves itself to be as durable as it is fun to drive. I believe there is a way, too, to CPO my own car (for a price) giving me a warranty to 100,000 miles.

At 5,000 miles the first service – basically an inspection and an oil and filter change – is required, subsequent service intervals are 10,000 miles.

First off, the car has had no issues of any kind beyond a flat tire which only required a patch to remedy. Even on the coldest mornings (minus 11 F), starting was no problem and since I have heated seats there was only short-lived temperature discomfort. My butt was quickly warmed up, that is.

Second, the S4 with the S-Tronic transmission is beyond a pleasure to drive – it goes all the way to fun to drive coupled with a boatload of confidence inspiration. The engine, transmission, brake and steering combination work together so well they have convinced me they are telepathic, responding to my foot and hand commands in real time. There is no latency: Press the accelerator and the car doesn’t pause that millisecond every other car I have ever had did, indeed it seems to accelerate almost a millisecond before my brain receives the confirmation from my foot that the pedal has been pressed. The paddle shifters, too, act, they don’t react – when I ask for an upshift, the speed at which the next highest gear is selected is faster (and smoother) even than the best manual transmission upshift, I could ever pull off. And, I should also tell you that the brakes slow or stop the car with such speed and control it is as if I had hit a giant, super-thick foam rubber wall. Finally, the S4 goes where you point it, when you point it. Body roll is minimal and it corners like a Ken Onion chef’s knife carves a tender beef roast.

Other than the unabashed fart-like exhaust sound that accompanies high RPM upshifts, the S4 is very quiet and civilized inside, and the tuneage delivered through the B&O speaker system is sick – although I do miss the extra kick from the sub-woofer in the Acura TL’s DVD-Audio system.

This year, Drive Select is standard, and it allows, in Individual mode, the driver to change the characteristics of the engine/transmission, steering and exhaust system sound. Settings generally include Comfort, Auto and Dynamic. I have mine set for Dynamic (engine/transmission), Auto (steering) and Comfort (exhaust note sound), although under full-throttle, even in Comfort mode, the engine growls and the exhaust snorts right on cue whenever the transmission upshifts.

I have no intention of taking this (or my wife’s SQ5) to the track, but wrist-watch timed runs from 0 to 60 are, always under 5-seconds. To me, the S4 is a rocket in terms of its quickness; I’ll not be chipping this engine – it doesn’t need it. Time and distance take on entirely new meanings with an S4 – something I do attribute partially to the wonderful (Red) sport seats. Nobody does sport-seats better than Audi.

In sum, at 5,000 miles the already quick S4 engine seems to have found and made available about 5% more horsepower and torque from just above idle on to redline. I will look forward to repeating this “+5%” phenomenon again, if all goes as usual, again at 10,000 miles.

Perhaps because S4’s are not typically plentiful at your local dealer – there are rarely more than one or two of them at any of the Audi dealers I’ve been to over nearly three decades, they are “outta sight and outta mind” for many premium sport-sedan shoppers. This is a pity, for the S4 is that rare automobile that artfully combines, sport, luxury and a fair amount of practicality (it is in one of American’s most sought after configuration – a four-door sedan) in one fun package. If your auto shopping list currently includes an Acura TLX [coming soon], BMW 335, Infiniti Q50S, Cadillac ATS, Lexus IS 350 F-Sport, Mercedes C-class or Volvo S60 Type-R, you owe it to yourself to take a long test drive in an Audi S4. If money is an object, I would assume a great second choice would be the upcoming TLX, assuming Acura keeps the S4-lite theme of the current TL SH-AWD alive and well. Or, you could get an A4 S-Line and have many of the same goodies that make the S4 such a treat.

I’m getting the heck outta here now, while it’s still light out, and I’m going to take the long way home.

DILYL

m6user · February 2014

@andys120
I never said anything about an older car with over 100k miles automatically becoming a money pit. What I said was that a well maintained car that age/miles will probably need a couple of repairs equating to a couple of car payments......maybe something like $1000-$1200 per year. That is very reasonable because one, there are no car payments. Two, insurance is cheap as it doesn't pay to carry collision on a car over 10 years old IMO. Three, you don't worry about it in parking lots so much anymore or sliding off the road on ice or snow quite as much. A little less stressful. Probably the most stressful thing is the worry of when the next thing is going to break and is it going to strand you or not. Doesn't bother me so much but I would worry about my wife or daughter having a situation.

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