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Buick LeSabre Heating / Cooling

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    If the other vacuum controls move correctly when set on floor/windshield, and you are sure you have correct vacuum with no leaks at the storage tank behind the headlight, and you can move a line off the floor control diaphragm on the driver side and put it on the diaphragm for the upper doors (blue line), then you have a problem with this sucking shut.

    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC03124.jpg

    You can cut it off from the vacuum lines and slide vacuum line over the tubes (Oreilly's sells it by the foot or in boxes). Connect the correct color from the inner part of the programmer box to the color on the outside--they are not all the same.

    Programmer sits on corner of heater box.

    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/HeaterCore1-1.jpg

    You can reach all this by removing the sound shield under the dash and removing the glovebox door at the hinge.
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  • i have 97 buick lesabre. last winter, the heater worked awesome, not a problem. so far this winter, the heater blows cold air, even after letting the car run for 10-15 minutes. the airflow will start going to warm after driving it for a little bit, but not much (in a 30mph zone). hopping on the freeway, the heater works just fine, but when sitting at a stop sign, or a stop light, it starts blowing cold again. any ideas?
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    edited November 2013
    I assume it's the manual control heater and the actuator for the temperature is working right. See last paragraph.

    Your car may have a thermostat that is not closing completely when cold or opening too early. After 5 minutes with a cold engine, the upper hose should still be cold while the heater hoses are warm and hot. You should be able to feel the thermostat open when the coolant gets to 195 as shown on the dash gauge, by the hot water coming into the upper hose in slow spurts and warming it some. The thermostat may open slowly and just the bottom of the hose gets warm at first. After 10 minutes or so, the upper hose should be too hot to hold for more than a few seconds unless your hands are really toughened up from being used to hot things.

    You might have low coolant level in the radiator--have to take the cap off when cool to see if there is coolant up to the cap level. Can NOT check just the level in the plastic reservoir. But that usually has a couple other symptoms.

    Your coolant may be old and clogging the heater core lowering the flow rate. If you are careful you can check the temperature of the two lines into the firewall behind the engine. Be careful of the moving belt at the alternator. After the engine and car have been warmed up, with the heater blower on high the temperature of the one metal tube should be some cooler than the other one. But both should be hot. If you turn the fan speed on low and retest, the tubes should be nearer in temp due to the water in the heater core not being cooled as much by the air.

    Having someone run the engine at 1500 rpm or more for a minute before testing should improve the temperature of the out hose making it closer to the input temperature.

    If the flow in the radiator is partly blocked, you can have the cooling system cleaned with a cleaner to try to pick up some of the gunk in the heater. The better solution is to take off the rubber tubes at the engine end and try to flush the heater core with light water pressure in both directions.

    A remote possibility is a water pump.

    The electric actuator on top of the heater box pushes a white plastic arm and a metal rod to move the temperature blend door. That actuator may be slipping and not pushing the rod all the way to the hot side. You can take off 3 screws and a couple taps on the firewall to remove the plastic panel under the dash. Take off the glovebox door for easier access--7 screws across the bottom hinge. You can try to move the actuator with a gentle push. If it moves, the inside axle is slipping due to a cracked gear. OR you can watch it move as you change the temp setting with the key ON to see which way it goes for HOT, and then try to push it further and see if you get more heater with the engine running in that position. If the actuator is going full hot, with a hot engine running at 40 or more the air coming out the vents should be so hot you can't hold your hands there.
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  • Hello. First let me say what you are providing is awesome !! I have read many of your posts and the answers are intelligent and insightful. So I am hopeful you can help me locate my problem. My friend has a 95 Buick Lasbre. Complained of low heat. I know a little about a lot and I love to help so here I am lol. I noticed the coolant looked rough and she said she can't remember it ever being changed. So that's the first thing I decided to do. Never over-heated and all of the manual controls worked well so I figured it was a good start. After flushing and draining 3 times I added Prestone's mix and let it warm up. Had awesome heat. On the drive back to her house it all dropped out and went right back to blowing cold air. I opened the hood and felt the upper radiator hose. Slightly warm but nowhere near what it should be. I noticed both fans were running. I let it sit and idle for about 15 mins and the air was still cold. Fans still running. Hoses still cold. I didn't think to reach back and feel the heater hose lines. It is 6 degrees out there and night time. Should those fans be running when the water temp isn't hot ? It only has a temp light so I do not know what the engine temp was :( Tomorrow I will dive deeper. Any advice would be awesome. BTW, sliding the cold/hot slider works well, switching from defrost to floor, to blend works well.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    edited January 2014

    @jdunaway said:

    I opened the hood and felt the upper radiator hose. Slightly warm but nowhere near what it should be. I noticed both fans were running. I let it sit and idle for about 15 mins and the air was still cold. Fans still running. Hoses still cold. I didn't think to reach back and feel the heater hose lines. It is 6 degrees out there and night time. Should those fans be running when the water temp isn't hot ? It only has a temp light so I do not know what the engine temp was :

    Check the coolant level in the radiator--not the reservoir--tomorrow. You may not have gotten all the air out. Fill radiator with coolant with engine running. Then rev engine, either yourself with the throttle on the engine or have someone hold it at 1500 or so and add coolant then put on cap while revving. Drive car until it should be fully warm. The fans should not be running. I suspect you were running hot. They may come on at 217 or so. With 6 deg outside, it was easy for the low coolant to keep below emergency temperature.

    After upper radiator hose is hot with coolant leaving engine through thermostat, run engine at 2500 for 10 sec or so then idle. Repeat 4 times. That should move air out of heater core. Then last open the little screw on top of the thermostat housing on upper radiator hose on engine to let out the air. You can do this with engine off while still hot. Open screw until air bubbles out and you get coolant.

    Did you replace the thermostat? Should have done that as prevention. They are good for a limited number of cycles; then you are riding on borrowed time. I recommend Stant Superstat at 7.99 at advance auto parts and a new rubber o-ring that slips over the metal edge of the thermostat for 3.50 or so. If you are going to do the thermostat, drain out about a gallon of coolant before taking off the thermostat housing.

    After flushing and draining 3 times I added Prestone's mix and let it warm up.

    If you rinsed with plain water and then added 50/50 Prestone, you do not have enough antifreeze, in my opinion. The volume is about 13 quarts for the system. If you're rinsed and drained 3 times, you have little left of the original coolants. If you added 50/50 Prestone that's not 7 quarts of Prestone. Each gallon on had 2 quarts of pure Prestone.

    Did you open the drain on the bottom of the radiator? That may have drained more plain water out. My method was to rinse and drain after warm up, 2 or 3 times. Then add the 7 quarts. Then add more water if needed. That way I knew the 6-7 quarts was in there for freeze protection.

    Get a gauge that measures the antifreeze temperature--even if just one of the little floating ball devices.

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  • I'll be replacing the thermostat later today. Like you said, I figured it's a good thing to do and easy so might as well. I did remove the lower radiator hose and drained that way. The petcock always seems to be a problem so I didn't even bother with it. I have already did as you described by running the engine up to 2500 and then idle 4 times and removed air via the set screw on the thermostat housing. I had awesome heat for around 30 mins or so while it was idling in the garage. When I took it for a drive is when the heat went suddenly cold and never returned. The top radiator hose was barely warm and those fans wouldn't shut off. Is it possible that the thermo switch for the fans gets stuck on ?

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    edited January 2014

    @jdunaway said: Is it possible that the thermo switch for the fans gets stuck on ?

    When you start the engine cold are the fans on? That would be true with a stuck relay.
    I don't suppose you have a scanner for the cars that's more than a code scanner: I have a
    scanner that shows the engine temperature that the computer is seeing.

    I had awesome heat for around 30 mins or so while it was idling in the garage. When I took it for a drive is when the heat went suddenly cold and never returned.

    That sounds like air in the heater again. What's the coolant level in radiator? If it dropped again you may have gaskets leaking coolant. That's a Series I engine though, isn't it.
    Or you have a glob of something that moved and blocked the heater core. See what happens after thermostat replacement. And do testing after idling to warm up of heater hoses. Also check that the thermostat starts releasing hot water after getting up to temp; you'll feel the bottom of upper hose get warm first as a little coolant is released. Then more until the whole hose is hot.

    The top radiator hose was barely warm and those fans wouldn't shut off.

    Are you in a climate where the air temp gets above 45-50 deg? And you have the HVAC controls set on something where the AC is turned on automatically--turn on the Vent button and see if fans turn off after a minute.

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  • jdunawayjdunaway Posts: 4
    edited January 2014

    It's around 10 degrees outside now. Last night it was 6 and the fans were on during idle while the radiator hoses were cold. I'm not sure if they were on while it was cold and a fresh start up. I'm gonna go get the car now and run some more tests. Also replace the thermostat. I'll burp the system again and add fluid while revving the engine up. I'll also check the heater core hoses after it gets hot and see what I find. I'll report back in a few hours. Thank you for your responses !! :)

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  • Well I cleaned the relay connections, burped the system, new thermostat and gasket, and filled the system while holding it at 2000 rpm. All seems well. :)

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  • Needing some help for my 1995 Buick Lesabre. When turning on my heater or AC I can hear the blower motor running at all of the different speeds (I have the manual control with slide lever) including high speed but I hardly have any air coming out of the vents. I can switch between defrost, vent, floor and the air is redirecting where it should go and is very warm since it's cold outside, but there is hardly any airflow. I turn on the recirculate and still only have minimal airflow out of the vents when in high position. Have replaced blower motor and tried a different electronic control module inside the car; took apart the vents on outside of the car to make sure they weren't plugged; have used my DMM to make sure all fuses are good and that I have voltage. Not sure what else to try. This problem occurred literally overnight the airflow was fine one day and not the next. Any help is appreciated.

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952

    @gregory20 said:

    When turning on my heater or AC I can hear the blower motor running at all of the different speeds (I have the manual control with slide lever) including high speed but I hardly have any air coming out of the vents.

    As I read this it did NOT happen when you replaced the blower motor? I have read of one where the blower motor was turning in reverse. Also some have had the squirrel cage loose on the axle so the motor was turning but the squirrel cage was not.

    Disconnect battery negative.

    If you are able to do this yourself, I suggest looking into the resistor opening. It is on top of the blower motor box area. The power lead from the blower motor goes to the resistor. The relay center above that is held by 2 screws and these can be removed leaving the relay center loose. It can be moved up to give better access to the two screws holding the resistor into the heater blower box area.

    If you can hear lots of air sound as the blower runs on high, that is a good sign. I'd try reconnecting battery and running blower motor to see if a lot, lot of air is coming up out of resistor opening because the other flow path is restricted.

    Once that is open, you can see the front of the AC evaporator. People have found these covered with small grass or straw material and with dirt and oily mixtures from years of air with road dust in it. If you see oily material, people have recommended Gumout carburetor cleaner. If you need, I'll try to find a source for that. The AC evaporator has a drain for the water, but this must be done slowly to allow water to drain. Put plastic under heater box inside car with towels on top to catch any water that gets in there. Gumout sits for a while and then you can use a garden pesticide pump sprayer to spray water on it to rinse. Or a well-controlled garden hose.

    You may have a problem with air through the various mode valves. But if AC is open, then you might have a blocked heater core. That would require taking off the door to it inside the car. It's two screws, lots of sealer, and two hooks at the back end if I recall the pictures. But not easy. Can be done without removing dash. Maybe the glove box can be removed for better access. Requires lying upside down on seat and shoulders on floor.

    Before going after heater core for inspection, I'd verify the blower motor and AC core are both working right. You've replace blower motor AFTER this occurred, so that's odd. I would suspect a broken mode door but you say you are able to direct air everywhere with vacuum controls. I would suspect a broken actuator or door for the blend. You can watch the blend actuator, electric, sitting on top of the heater box as you move the temperature slide. Those actuators crack a gear inside which is press-fitted to the axle. And the axle slips as it's being twisted to move the link to the blend door. A test is whether the you can change temperature from very hot to very cold with that electric actuator.

    Just for my interest, when the heater is blowing on high and set on floor, how much air is coming out the defroster? There should be very little bleeding to the windshield--just enough to keep it clear from slight fogging without having to switch to heat/windshield where you would get more flow to the windshield.

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  • 2buicks2buicks Posts: 10
    edited April 13
    Hi, I replaced the battery on my wife's 2002 Buick Lesabre Limited and since then, the AUTO button engaged on the climate controls will not engage the blower motor when starting. I did verify the compress is engaged when the blower does not come on. In order to get the blower to come on, I have to press the off button and then press the AUTO button and the blower comes on normally. Prior to me changing the battery, we left the AUTO button in the on position all the time and never had to press anything other than to occasionally change temps.

    My question is, does the car have to go thru a "relearn" process of start/runs to get this function back to the way it was?
    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks - Rick
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    2buicks said:

    Hi, I replaced the battery on my wife's 2002 Buick Lesabre Limited and since then, the AUTO button engaged on the climate controls will not engage the blower motor when starting. I did verify the compress is engaged when the blower does not come on. In order to get the blower to come on, I have to press the off button and then press the AUTO button and the blower comes on normally. Prior to me changing the battery, we left the AUTO button in the on position all the time and never had to press anything other than to occasionally change temps.

    My question is, does the car have to go thru a "relearn" process of start/runs to get this function back to the way it was?
    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks - Rick

    What happens when you push the faster/slower switch for the blower, which
    takes it out of automatic control? Does the blower come on?

    Don't know about a relearn procedure. However, the blower motors do fail
    with the brushes not making good contact. To test, take your toe of your left
    foot up against the bottom of the heater while sitting in the passenger seat. Tapping
    slightly often vibrates the motor and causes the brushes to make contact again.

    So with the key ON and the controls set and the motor seeming to not react,
    vibrate the blower motor itself. You can lie on the floor on the passenger side
    and see a round area cut out in the plastic dust shield which is the blower motor.
    You can manually bump that or tap it with your toe.

    Blower motors are replaceable.

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  • 2buicks2buicks Posts: 10
    Imidazol97- Thanks for replying. Everything works. I can hit the fan blower speed button which takes it out of AUTO and it works fine. In fact if I leave it there and turn off the car, when restarting the fan motor immediately comes on. Like I said everything works fine, but it seems the car will not remember the car was in the AUTO position the last time it was turned off. We then have to press the OFF button, then press the AUTO button and then the blower and A/C comes back to normal. A bit of inconvenience, but I am just worried about the additional stop and restarts of the compressor when having to press the off button and pressing the AUTO button. I have not checked the fuses, but what does the #37 HVAC BAT fuse do?

    Oh, and by the way, the blower motor has been replaced within the year and has not been a problem until just now with replacing the battery. A little puzzled here, do you think disconnecting the battery and reconnecting will reset what has gone wrong? Thanks for any help you might have! - Rick
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    edited April 17
    2buicks said:

    I have not checked the fuses, but what does the #37 HVAC BAT fuse do?

    Now that the most common thing is off the table..., I'd guess you've got a fuse out. I believe there are two fuses serving the programmer (the brain). One supplies normal power (#33) and the other is always connected and retains the memory (#37). Your owner manual should indicate both fuses and location. I have a factory service manual to dig out if that doesn't discover a dead fuse when you check to see if your symptom is listed in the troubleshooting.

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  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 2,097
    All of the diagnostics with this system require the use of a scan tool that supports it. There is a recalibration function that can be performed with the scan tool as well, and while the system should do that automatically if the system loses power (battery disconnect) a failure \in the system will cause that to not complete and you end up right back at needing a scan tool to proceed.
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  • 2buicks2buicks Posts: 10
    Thanks Imidazol97 and Thecardoc3 for your replies. Haven't had a chance to look at it today. Had roofers here replacing a section of roof in between rain showers!

    When I went thru my owners manual and saw the #37 fuse, I thought that might be the culprit. Let's hope anyway. It's very frustrating because everything else is working. The car just can't remember the AUTO button was in when it was shut down!

    Thanks guys, I will leave another comment when I have a chance to check the fuses.
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    2buicks said:

    When I went thru my owners manual and saw the #37 fuse, I thought that might be the culprit. Let's hope anyway. It's very frustrating because everything else is working. The car just can't remember the AUTO button was in when it was shut down!

    What happens if you leave the settings manually chosen? E.g., fan speed 3, temp at 80, and floor only for heat? Does it start back up after shutdown in those same settings?

    I haven't checked the factory service manual, but I'm wondering if those settings are remembered in a body control module that remembers the seat and mirror settings for the two drivers plus the exit setting?

    The local car technician who had a radio call in program talked about disconnecting the battery and holding the positive and negative cables together to drain power stored in capacitors from the modules that remember settings. If you don't find a fuse blown, that might be your next step. It may not make a diffrence, but I'd put the HVAC controls in OFF before shutting off the ignition. Then remove the battery cable and lay it against the positive at the battery. AND leave it off for a long time such as a half hour. Then reconnect. Turn key to ON and wait while things reset. Then start the engine. Then hope it might have cleared you problem.

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  • 2buicks2buicks Posts: 10
    Imidazol97 - I just checked #37 fuse and it is not blown. I disconnected the negative post for 30 seconds, reconnected and it is the same. Yes, I can have the system in manual cool and turn off the car, when I restart, the blower, compressor all comes back without touching a thing. It's only the AUTO button engaged that it is not remembering. Oh, and I did reprogram the comfort settings on the door, each driver when all this started and that did not help with the AUTO. I wonder if the scan tool that THECARDOC3 mentioned could clear this. My A/C man might have one, I just hate going to the Buick dealership, it's always major CHA-CHING with those folks!
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  • 2buicks2buicks Posts: 10
    I have to put the back seat in for right now, my wife has to use the car. She is fine with having to turn off and then press the AUTO, but I am concern with all the extra turning off and turning on of the compressor. What are you thoughts?
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  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 2,097
    The compressor turns on and off all of the time anyway, so that isn't any concern.
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  • 2buicks2buicks Posts: 10
    Okay, I just didn't want to put any additional strain on kicking it off and then kicking it back in, but you are right, it does cycle on and off anyway. This is really got me baffled. At least the air still works, it's just that AUTO button doesn't stay engaged! Thanks for your replies! - Rick
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    2buicks said:

    I have to put the back seat in for right now, my wife has to use the car. She is fine with having to turn off and then press the AUTO, but I am concern with all the extra turning off and turning on of the compressor. What are you thoughts?

    Did you leave the battery disconnected for 30 minutes? Did you connect the positive to the negative while off to discharge the system?

    I looked in the factory manual and it's vague about the logic and operation of the HVAC. I does not have a troubleshooting segment for the Auto setting not remembering blower.

    Out of curiosity, what happens if instead of turning the control OFF, you just use the blower speed rocker switch to change the blower speed?

    As for working harder to get this repaired, I'd just live with it. I am especially interested in whether the system takes over the blower again when it fails in Auto by going to manual settings. The compressor gets turned on and off with the car's engine or with changes in the controls. But otherwise it's always on as a variable compressor.

    There are some other things that go through my mind. I assume you are in AC mode? If in heat mode, the program might be waiting for the sensor to indicate the coolant is warm enough to have the blower start on to provide heat. A bad sensor might not be giving the hot coolant reading. But your problem came after disconnecting the battery and probably the HVAC control was left ON when you did that.

    If in AC mode, I believe there's a purge setting where the system uses a higher rate of flow for the air to help get hot air out of the car.



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  • 2buicks2buicks Posts: 10
    Imidazol - No I didn't hold the positive terminal to the negative terminal as I had disconnected and reconnected the battery at the negative side before I read your post. Oh, and prior to replacing the battery I did have the A/C turned OFF. I have two Buicks and I read somewhere after I bought my '97 Lesabre that it is advisable to turn of the A/C prior to disconnecting the battery. Yes, I think I will live with it like this. I am going to get with my A/C guy and see if he has a GM scan tool. The Cardoc3 said the scan tool can scan and recalibrate the system. New technology, you and Cardoc3 know more about the newer systems than I could ever hope for. Maybe a relearn will happen yet, who knows? Thanks all, I will leave a comment when I have any updates! - Rick
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    I received this question from gerald22 about a problem with inoperative controls for the HVAC on the dash:


    gerald22 → imidazol97
    The 1993 Heater/AC controls do not light up, buttons are not active. Replaced the control with a known working unit, and still is not active, seems like not receiving power, however the blower fan runs on high all the time the key is turned on.
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 18,952
    edited April 19
    Is anything else not working? Have you checked fuses for the HVAC? There may be more than one.

    The first thing to check would be the ground IF you can verify there is power on both fuses with the key ON.

    The ground bundles that are under the door sill on each side sometimes had trouble with corrosion due to moisture carried by the shoes into the carpet. I do not know which side the ground for the programmer box and the controls use.

    I do know that my 93 would lose the power door locks AND the HVAC came on with the compressor working and in default mode which is defrost and high fan speed. So I suspect you have a problem ground buss.

    You
    If you know how to use a voltmeter, check the ground wire from the control.

    These show the location of the ground buss on the driver side. There's also one on the passenger side but
    I don't know that it's related.

    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/DSC00977.jpg

    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/connector.jpg

    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/connector2.jpg

    http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k110/imidazol97/100_1929.jpg
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  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 2,097
    That system ran on what is known today as a LIN bus communication network. (Local Interconnected Network) and it could be accessed with a full function scan tool that communicated on pin J of the ALDL. The network was called E&C which stood for Entertainment and Control. It's notable that a number of the cars that had the E&C bus usually had the communication pin removed from the diagnostic connector and the technician had to access it and install it into the connector during testing, and then once done remove it from the connector and tape it back into it's rest position.

    The control head not lighting up would have a tech first needing to confirm power on pins 12 Brown from the ignition switch and 13 Orange from battery positive. Based on the O.P's description and the fact that he isn't reporting a drivability issue such as a stall or random no start the ground bus is actually unlikely to be causing his vehicle issue. When the ground bus you identified is failing it typically also shuts down the fuel pump and other systems like the power seats, power windows. Since he is only losing one system a better approach is to start all of the testing at the control head connector. If the ground circuit is in fact failing, it could be proven by measuring the voltage drop across it at pin 1 black/white to a known good ground. (battery negative if possible)

    While widely accepted as necessary, touching the battery cables together to help discharge capacitors in the system really isn't necessary nor advisable. Any system that doesn't use a control module or other switching device in its primary control if operated easily drains the caps as well. Things like brake lights, dome lights, if operated not only make a connection from the battery power to ground for you, they have the added safety concern of bleeding the power off across at least some resistance which helps protect a module from a sudden current surge that could occur when the cables are grounded together to attempt a discharge.
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  • 2buicks2buicks Posts: 10
    2buicks said:

    Imidazol - No I didn't hold the positive terminal to the negative terminal as I had disconnected and reconnected the battery at the negative side before I read your post. Oh, and prior to replacing the battery I did have the A/C turned OFF. I have two Buicks and I read somewhere after I bought my '97 Lesabre that it is advisable to turn of the A/C prior to disconnecting the battery. Yes, I think I will live with it like this. I am going to get with my A/C guy and see if he has a GM scan tool. The Cardoc3 said the scan tool can scan and recalibrate the system. New technology, you and Cardoc3 know more about the newer systems than I could ever hope for. Maybe a relearn will happen yet, who knows? Thanks all, I will leave a comment when I have any updates! - Rick

    Had my A/C man scan the system with his Snap On scanner and he did get an error message that a motor was stuck in the cool mode and he couldn't clear this without physically getting to this device. He said most of the dash would have to come out and it would end up costing around $700 to get my AUTO to start remembering last position at shutdown. I have given up on it. Thanks to both you and Cardoc3 for your suggestions. Sometimes the "EASY" works, other times "it ain't going to happen!" - Rick

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