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Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause

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Comments

  • la4meadla4mead Member Posts: 347
    edited December 2013
    Is it claimed this might be the fault of Toyota/Lexus? I drive this model/gen RX300. Completely unrelated to this vehicle, I have also recently been the victim of another driver of an early 80's Lincoln at-fault in an "unintended acceleration" accident where the driver clearly mistook the throttle for the brake pedal, mashing the throttle of the V8 to the floor in the effort to try to stop the huge sedan. This driver came up with lots of excuses why it was not his fault. I had a feeling blaming the car was coming next. So again, in my limited experience, it is all too common for people to come up with excuses to place blame elsewhere rather than accept blame as the driver of the vehicle.
    Although obviously I wasn't witness to the accident in this article, if I mistakenly shifted my transmission into the wrong drive gear or hit the throttle instead of the brake, it would be pretty easy to plow through a Starbucks, endangering patrons. My experience with the RX has been admittedly limited my own ownership during the past 15 years and hundreds of thousands of miles, however I am looking forward to seeing solid evidence to support the claim that it was defective engineering or parts and not driver error.
    Even if it accelerates on it's own - assuming a cruise malfunction that is not fail-safe - why are the brakes disabled too?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A UA "incident" is terrifying. The driver would have to be an exceptionally cool dude to look down at his feet and determine if HE is the cause (he probably is, but that's another story).

    "Evidence" is based on replication. If you can't replicate your theory, you can't prove it. All theories need to be falsifiable, but apparently UA incidents are faith-based and defy testing.

    The only tests I've seen show that even at full throttle, you can stop a car with the brakes.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The cop and family that were killed in the Lexus ES350 had completely burnt the pads off trying to stop the car. In that case is was determined the wrong floormats were the cause of UA. That dealer is no longer a Lexus dealer by the way. Still being sued by the family. Toyota settled for $10 million. Also the goofy kill switched had to be held down for 3 seconds to stop the engine.

    I don't think this case has gotten to the finger pointing stage yet. Just want to keep up with all the ToyLex crashes where it is a possibility.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You can stop a car with the brakes at full throttle. As for the stop button, that's what an owner's manual is for.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    It seems in virtually all of these cases, when data is analyzed to see if brakes were applied, they weren't - even if the "driver" insists otherwise. Couple that with the fact that most of these UA cars attract people who see driving as a chore and that the drivers aren't the most "with it" on the roads, it doesn't seem like the cars are going crazy. Still waiting to see a documented UA claim with a 30 year old male in a Camry/Prius/Lexus.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,325
    It amazes me at all the complicated reasons for UA that people come up with...chrome whiskers, radio waves, you name it. Then they ignore the most simple reasons...driver error or fraud and greed.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How many people read the owner's manual on a loaner car?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How about a 36 year old male?

    The expert hired by lawyers for a Minnesota man imprisoned for vehicular manslaughter after his speeding Toyota killed three people has filed a report claiming that he has identified a mechanical flaw that could have caused the accident.

    "This makes our case even stronger," said Bob Hilliard, an attorney for Koua Fong Lee, 36, who is serving an eight-year prison sentence. Hilliard hopes to convince Ramsey County, Minnesota prosecutors to free Lee from prison pending a new trial.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/expert-mechanical-defect-found-runa- way-toyota-camry-killed/story?id=10667854
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2013
    Most of the time the manual isn't even available in the loaner or rental car.

    (Houdini1, I always heard it as "tin" whiskers but I guess it's really "metal whikering". :))
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    how many pilots read the owner's manual on a rental plane?

    Answer: ALL OF THEM

    What's so hard about "Hey, how do I turn this thing on and off?"

    Besides, one's instinct when you press a button and nothing happens?

    Yep, you press more often and harder.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    edited December 2013
    Almost 4 year old story that uses "breaking" for the use of brakes? I need more than that :) Any updates?

    A 1996 car even at 10 years old is old enough to have who knows what kind of botched repairs, too. Not seeing a direct connection to the cases involving 2003+ designs when the cars were often only a couple years old.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    I'd go for the former, or maybe mechanical failure in an old car.

    In so many of these cases, no actual evidence of braking could be found.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Still could be a poorly designed accelerator. Prosecutor must have thought a defective vehicle was a possibility. That was a harsh sentence where no drugs or alcohol were evident.

    ST. PAUL, Minn. (CBS/WCCO/AP) Koua Fong Lee, the Minnesota man convicted in a 2006 Toyota crash that left three dead is now a free man. Shortly after a judge ordered a new trial for Lee - citing new evidence and a shoddy defense - Ramsay County prosecutor Susan Gaertner said she will not seek another trial.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/toyota-driver-koua-fong-lee-released-from-prison-no-- new-trial-for-deadly-crash/

    I disagree with the statement that any car can be stopped at WOT with braking. The tests done during the UA recalls NEVER went to 120 MPH as the cop was going when he tried stopping the Lexus.
  • la4meadla4mead Member Posts: 347
    "You can stop a car with the brakes at full throttle. As for the stop button, that's what an owner's manual is for."

    This model RX300 does not have keyless start; to stop the engine, simply turn the key the first click "off" - but without turning it to the last click to "lock".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2013
    why would anyone in his right mind wait to 120 mph to apply the brake? it would take a long time to reach that speed. If he waited that long to react, then something was wrong with HIM.

    That's like saying you can't stop a bicycle at 150 mph. Probably not.

    I know you might disagree, but it's been proven many many times. You can stop a car with WOT, which implies you can stop it from ever reaching 120 mph.
  • la4meadla4mead Member Posts: 347
    "why would anyone in his right mind wait to 120 mph to apply the brake? it would take a long time to reach that speed. If he waited that long to react, then something was wrong with HIM.

    That's like saying you can't stop a bicycle at 150 mph. Probably not.

    I know you might disagree, but it's been proven many many times. You can stop a car with WOT, which implies you can stop it from ever reaching 120 mph."

    By the time the vehicle reaches 120, any driver with half a brain would have tried moving to the left pedal, braking, shutting the engine off, shifting to neutral, pulling mats or water bottles away, etc. Anyone else is an incompetent driver.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    Harsh sentence indeed, that's our beloved criminal justice system at work, keeping things safe and just. So many of these overpaid judges and prosecutors need to be put under a microscope.

    It could have been some kind of freak random incident, but I don't know if it links those in later model cars and their sometimes wildstories.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    By the time the vehicle reaches 120, any driver with half a brain would have tried moving to the left pedal, braking, shutting the engine off, shifting to neutral, pulling mats or water bottles away, etc. Anyone else is an incompetent driver.

    I would probably agree that California Highway Patrolmen are over paid if they can afford to drive a Lexus. I don't generally consider them incompetent drivers. I guess we will never know for sure. We do know Toyota paid dearly for the crash that sent them into a downward spiral.

    The crash made headlines nationwide. An investigation found that an improper floor mat caused the gas pedal on the Lexus to become stuck and the driver, California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, was unable to slow the car down. Toyota recalled more than 4 million vehicles following the investigation’s findings.

    Saylor, his wife Cleofe, their 13-year-old daughter, Mahala, and passenger Chris Lastrella were killed. Lastrella was Saylor’s brother-in-law.

    Saylor was loaned the 2009 ES 350 Lexus by Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon when he dropped his car off at the dealership to be serviced. News reports said that a man who previously drove the loaner Lexus reported acceleration problems to the dealership when he returned it.


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/toyota-sudden-acceleration-internal-ema- il_n_1232279.html?ref=mostpopular
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Wasn't there some argument made that braking power would be reduced if the driver kept pumping the brakes instead of just standing on them?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's not a very strong argument because it presupposes that just because he is a CHP that he somehow has god-given powers in any kind of emergency. He is trained in vehicle control and he failed, in my opinion, because he was given a situation that wasn't in the training. As any pilot can tell you, this is exactly what causes grievous pilot error.

    He didn't know how to shut the vehicle off, and he didn't know what was happening to him. Had he known, in 3 seconds he could have either shut the car off or pulled up the floor mat.

    So, in the end, he was no better trained than you or I to handle this.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's not an argument--with ABS it's a fact---pumping the brakes defeats the ABS function.

    What you do is jump on the pedal with both feet if you have to*

    *exception---gravel roads---that's where you might get more results by pumping.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited December 2013
    Also on Ice. We disabled the ABS when possible as they caused loss of control on ice. Light taps on ice work better than full on braking. I spent 8 months per year driving on ice in the Arctic for 25 years. No accidents or slide off into the ditches. For me the cop that got killed, presents more questions than answers. I drive that stretch about once a week and look at the spot they ended up and wonder what he could have done.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Re pumping the brakes, I was thinking more of this scenario from that plaintiff's lawyer's site, Safety Research & Strategies.

    "with the throttle plate open, the vacuum power assist of the braking system cannot be replenished and the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced significantly and that brake pedal force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop the vehicle, compared to 30 pounds required when the vehicle is operating normally."
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes but the vacuum does not dissipate with steady brake pressure. If he pumped the brakes many times over, then he caused the brakes to be difficult (but by no means impossible) to operate because he didn't follow the proper procedure for braking with ABS. This should have been part of his training.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As a veteran of the CA HP he probably learned the pre ABS braking method. Old habits are hard to break. I hated driving my 1973 Subaru and 78 Honda Accord on ice and snow. I never got used to FWD on slick surfaces. Give me rear wheel or AWD. Then I never liked driving sedans much anyway.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Busiris: Just because something "could" happen in no way means it "will", or "has" happened.

    Me: That's exactly how I feel when I walk into a convenience store and buy a lottery ticket. The same probability-theory applies to most car defects. Maybe 20 - 2,000, of hundreds of thousands of models will actually have the same variables actually align to trigger the problem. The defect is a "potential" not an "absolute". But that does not mean that because it is not easily duplicated, or it is not understood how to duplicate it, that the events - though improbable are not happening.

    Given the number of patches and upgrades I've received for years on my computers, I guess there are a lot of flaws in the software.
  • box1car1box1car1 Member Posts: 10

    For "Fly-By-Wire" vehicles we already know the CAUSE of unintended malfunctions,
    its close proximity broadcasting of digital signals by RF devices such as CELL PHONES
    Its why aircraft do NOT permit CELL PHONEs onboard an aircraft that is taxing to takeoff
    In USA cell phone frequency range is ~800MHz wherein wavelength = c, speed of light /
    frequency, to give a wavelength of ~14". Any T-shaped FM antennae picks up this signal IF
    top of T is 14" or half of the T is 7". Does a half wave antennae protrude into an auto cockpit?
    Can we say "Turn Signal" wherein a 7" length of wire is connected to the CRUISE CONTROL>
    When Mrs. Rhonda Smith testified in congress that her runaway Toyota dropped to 35mph after she called her husband, that "God Intervened". Sorry but her CELL PHONE intervened
    NO ONE in congress nor gov't DOT asked the next logical question- When no. did you dial?
    Why? Last thing gov't needs is another car co. to Bail Out as NO ONE would buy a Toyota
    So we have another GOV'T COVERUP, which only adds fuel to the firestorm that Americans
    are coming to the realization that "AMERICA is a BIG CORPORATE LIE"
    sorry about that

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2014

    Finally, a verified mechanical cause for once.

    "Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV said it is recalling its 2014 Ram ProMaster vans to resolve a condition that may allow an accelerator pedal to stick in the wide-open position if force is applied at an angle."

    Chrysler recalling nearly 10,000 vans for pedal problem (Detroit News)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Remember this guy? - now we have "the Gilbert Mechanism."

    "Tin whiskers can wreak havoc in electronics ranging from simple digital watches to modern space satellites, from pacemakers to nuclear power plants. NASA studies them closely. And the problem in Toyota’s pedal sensor sounded like it might be caused by tin whiskers, said NASA physicist Henning Leidecker.

    Leidecker and other NASA scientists were so taken by Gilbert’s research that they call the unique sequence of events required for a pedal sensor to short out “the Gilbert Mechanism.”

    “I think he’s a hero. What he found was ingenious,” Leidecker said."

    A Carbondale professor, runaway Toyotas and the hunt for 'tin whiskers' (stltoday.com)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Well it's not good science, but it might lead to good science.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2014

    Yeah, you can't trust those NASA physicists as far as you can throw them. Leidecker is probably measuring those whiskers in inches and then calculating their growth in metric. B)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2014

    The theory has not been reproducible is what I mean. All "theories" in science are rigorously attacked and either defeated or proven. When NASA had the theory that o-rings blew up the Challenger, they proved it.

    So, until someone retrieves a car wrecked by a UA incident, and finds tin whiskers, and then puts that part in a normal car and it goes UA, then nothing is proven.

    Right now, all they know is that they can artificially induce the car to accelerate, which is INTERESTING, but not the smoking gun by a long shot.

    Is it really "bad" science? No, only if you claim that it has solved the problem---then it's really bad science.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    NASA didn't understand the o-ring problem from the get go, or at least NASA's management ignored the warnings (starting to sound a bit like GM's ignition switch issue). (wikipedia)

    I haven't seen a theory I like better (and that includes the "all the drivers were idiots" theory).

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072

    I'll go with the idiot driver theory. Spend a few hours in the Seattle area observing Camrys and Prius - it will make sense.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    I agree. The idiot driver theory is simpler, more logical, and well...we've seen it before.

    but alas, not easy to test the idiot driver theory---I mean, would you have to find volunteers who have had 10 previous UA incidents? (hey, that might work!)

    NASA fully understood the o-ring problem but they never had launched in weather that cold before. The actual PROOF of the o-ring theory was captured, of course, on film.

    I think this wasn't even a "theory"--they knew right after it blew up.

    Theories need to withstand relentless bombardment to be proven true or false. Until someone can get a Toyota to UA time after time with a whiskers-infected device, I'm not buying it.

    All Mr. Science "proved" was that you could induce a UA without throwing a trouble code--and that is a significant thing to find out--but it's not at all "proving" UA.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Well, you'd have to grow and regrow the whiskers. They're a lot more fragile than even O-rings.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    See? Already you're making excuses for the theory :)

    So they "cause" UA and then they disappear?

    Lame, Steve. Try again.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2014

    It's all in my link - "But Leidecker, one of the investigators, said the findings were more limited. Tin whiskers are elusive and easily destroyed". (Emphasis mine)

    Maybe you missed this part too:

    "Toyota redesigned its pedal sensor in 2007 and again in 2008, expressly to eliminate the risk of tin whiskers."

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2014

    Still doesn't prove it by the scientific method. All speculation even though it 'sounds plausible'.

    Let's examine it.

    I think Steve destroyed my computer by doing something wrong. My computer has crashed.

    Steve had just worked on my computer, and this is why I suspect him. He denies it and it sounds like he's covering up. He may have done it accidentally but he won't let me access his work logs. Now he's working on my friend's computer but I notice he's not using the same methods as he did with mine.

    this is very suspicious. I have created a way to re-construct what I think Steve did and it makes sense.

    THEREFORE, Steve is guilty.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2014

    It's clear that tin whiskers break things (including NASA satellites which have the lack of gravity exacerbating the problem). The only question left is whether the problem caused any SUA events. The scenario is plausible enough that Toyota changed the sensors to try to avoid the problem.

    USC doctoral student unravels ‘tin whisker’ mystery (sc.edu)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    It's plausible but it's not science. It's also plausible that they changed it for other reasons. It's also plausible that they changed it as a precaution, and that no tin whiskers ever caused a UA incident, then or now.

    Until someone finds me a car that does consistent UA, and then delicately puts that throttle system into a "normal" car, and THAT second car goes UA, I'm not buying this one bit.

    Basically we are being asked to believe in ghosts.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Kind of like the "ghost" of gravity? "Science is not about proving things. It never has been, and it never will be. Instead, science is about observing the Universe around us and using those observations to try to understand how the Universe works." (newsvine.com)

    How about a 2005 Toyota Camry for your car?

    Electrical Failure of an
    Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor
    Caused by a Tin Whisker
    (NASA - pdf file)

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072

    Is it just coincidence that these whiskers seem to be plaguing cars that attract many who are not really with it when it comes to driving?

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    I can measure gravity, i can see it bend light, I can mathematically calculate it.

    Are you seriously asking me to believe a scenario where whiskers cause a car to UA, cause the brakes to fail, defeat the ignition shut off, and then...and THEN...restore the car's original functions AND disappear itself?

    You are a man of great faith, Steve, which is admirable.

    I am an entirely agnostic, materialistic, cold-hearted skeptic.

    Why does tin whiskers sound a lot like Bigfoot?

    Or as fintail surmises, maybe a Big Foot is at the root of it all.

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490

    @MrShift@Edmunds said:
    I can measure gravity, i can see it bend light, I can mathematically calculate it.

    Are you seriously asking me to believe a scenario where whiskers cause a car to UA, cause the brakes to fail, defeat the ignition shut off, and then...and THEN...restore the car's original functions AND disappear itself?

    You are a man of great faith, Steve, which is admirable.

    I am an entirely agnostic, materialistic, cold-hearted skeptic.

    Why does tin whiskers sound a lot like Bigfoot?

    Or as fintail surmises, maybe a Big Foot is at the root of it all.

    I'm gonna have to go with this analysis.

    No scientific study accepts "facts" that can't be reproduced under the same conditions.

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490

    @Stever@Edmunds said:
    It's all in my link - ...

    "Toyota redesigned its pedal sensor in 2007 and again in 2008, expressly to eliminate the risk of tin whiskers."

    Sounds good, but can we accept that any modifications done to production vehicles are direct results of relieving potential problems?

    I don't think so. TV sets ran for years just fine on vacuum tubes. They were replaced by more modern, less expensive and more reliable semi-conductors, which also significantly reduced the cost/price of TV sets.

    That switch in no way implied vacuum tube TVs as being defective defective...At least, IMO.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Remember how you'd "fix" your TV by banging on the side of it?

    Since tin whiskers are so fragile, banging on the dash may be the real fix. :p

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Tin whiskers is not a new discovery. The problem has been around for quite a while. Used to be, they'd add lead in the process which greatly reduces tin whisker formation. But alas, lead has been virtually banned from most manufacturing processes.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Yeah, unintended consequences? May be worth putting some back in if they can't figure out how else to manage the problem.

  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited April 2014

    @Stever said:
    Remember how you'd "fix" your TV by banging on the side of it?

    We called that "fine tuning"... LOL.

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