Midsize Sedans 2.0

[Deleted User] · May 2014

After driving the Windstar for 4 years I bought my WJ (1999-2004) Grand Cherokee V8. It was actually fun to drive. It was fun to kick the tail out when accelerating while making a right on red, for example. If I had a garage I would have kept it. Also, the leather inside was vastly thicker and more luxurious than my car, and they were giving them away. I paid $5k for it in 2006. Perfect for 2 kids still in car seats, and one in a booster.

dudleyr · May 2014

@akirby said:
Why do people assume that people don't like minivans because of what people will think about them? Most people just don't like the way they look.

The two go hand in hand.

akirby · May 2014

@scwmcan said:
because the reason most people give when asked why they don't buy them is because of the soccer mom image.

I don't necessarily believe that. It's a popular theory but do you have an actual reference for such a survey?

m6user · May 2014

If you don't think people buy cars(and other things such as clothes) to reflect a perception of themselves to others than you should never get a marketing job. I have heard the comment from friends and relatives such as "I just don't want a van" when in fact a van would be so much better for what they actually need than the higher riding, poorer handling, less mpg, less convenient, .less storage, less seating SUV they end up with. But they want the SUV do to it's more adventurous appearance or something like that.

Why do people want dual exhaust when in modern day cars it adds not one iota of performance in 99.9% of cases? They want to look cooler because they think their car looks cooler. Nothing wrong with it, it's just human nature but to deny it is being naive.

As far as a survey......how about common sense.

ivan_99 · May 2014

@m6user said:
If you don't think people buy cars(and other things such as clothes) to reflect a perception of themselves to others than you should never get a marketing job. I have heard the comment from friends and relatives such as "I just don't want a van" when in fact a van would be so much better for what they actually need than the higher riding, poorer handling, less mpg, less convenient, .less storage, less seating SUV they end up with. But they want the SUV do to it's more adventurous appearance or something like that.

Why do people want dual exhaust when in modern day cars it adds not one iota of performance in 99.9% of cases? They want to look cooler because they think their car looks cooler. Nothing wrong with it, it's just human nature but to deny it is being naive.

As far as a survey......how about common sense.

Agreed...I can't wait to get rid of my mini-van. It seems the advantages aren't that much greater than the 'cool' SUV's; especially mileage. But your analysis is correct...mostly because it looks like a big dorky vehicle...

[Deleted User] · May 2014

Also, many of the SUV's that were a macho alternative to minivans have been neutered, like the New Nissan Mallfinder which is no longer a body on frame, real 4X4 with a low range transfer case. Same with the new MDX. They even killed off the dual exhaust, then stuck rectangular chrome framed reflectors exactly where the tips should be, and even though it has better performance out of a smaller engine, it is no longer cool.

robr2 · May 2014

@cski said:
Also, many of the SUV's that were a macho alternative to minivans have been neutered, like the New Nissan Mallfinder which is no longer a body on frame, real 4X4 with a low range transfer case. Same with the new MDX. They even killed off the dual exhaust, then stuck rectangular chrome framed reflectors exactly where the tips should be, and even though it has better performance out of a smaller engine, it is no longer cool.

But Nissan has managed to sell twice as many of the "Mallfinders" as the previous BOF,, 4x4, ;pw range unit. The market reality is that the old style SUV is no longer desired by most of the market.

akirby · May 2014

Common sense says that minivans are ugly compared to most cuvs and suvs. People buy them for utility, not for looks.

I can only speak from personal experience but my wife has liked SUVs and CUVs for over 20 years. She likes the styling of some suvs and cuvs (mostly Fords) and she despises the styling of all minivans regardless of who drives them or why. What other people think about what we drive has no bearing on our choices. We drive what we like - period. And I think the majority of people do the same when choosing a cuv/suv over a minivan. How many people who drive minivans continue driving minivans when their kids grow up? Very few I bet.

akirby · May 2014

@m6user said:
If you don't think people buy cars(and other things such as clothes) to reflect a perception of themselves to others than you should never get a marketing job. I have heard the comment from friends and relatives such as "I just don't want a van" when in fact a van would be so much better for what they actually need than the higher riding, poorer handling, less mpg, less convenient, .less storage, less seating SUV they end up with. But they want the SUV do to it's more adventurous appearance or something like that.

Or maybe they just prefer the styling on the suv rather than the ugly minivan. Unless you need seating for 7 a midsized cuv or suv will provide the same utility for most folks but with more attractive styling.

Why do people want dual exhaust when in modern day cars it adds not one iota of performance in 99.9% of cases? They want to look cooler because they think their car looks cooler. Nothing wrong with it, it's just human nature but to deny it is being naive.

Because it looks better. Not because it makes people think differently about the driver.

nyccarguy · May 2014

I'll throw my hat into the minivan vs. SUV spin off discussion here. A little over 3 years ago, we expanded our family by having a 3rd child. My wife's 2010 TSX wasn't going to "cut the mustard" with 3 kids in car seats. I'm not going to lie. We both looked at one another and said: "We don't want a minivan." Practically speaking we could certainly use the space and versatility. Besides interior space, our other requirement was that the vehicle had 4WD or AWD. Well, I didn't really want a minivan to begin with and I sure as salt wasn't going to spend over $40K on an AWD Sienna. So we went with an SUV. 3 years and close to 50K miles later, we're happy. SUVs certainly aren't any "cooler" than minivans. Around me, Pilots are just as ubiquitous as Odysseys.

Just to keep this on topic, I am looking at a few Mid-Sizers for when the lease is up on my 2011 328xi this coming September. I'll be checking out the Passat TSI, the Passat TDI, the Legacy, the Altima, & the Accord EX. I'll keep you posted on my test drives and experiences.

stickguy · May 2014

Dang, that sounds like fun. maybe I should meet you in Rockland after work on a Saturday, and go on a test drive binge?

nyccarguy · May 2014

@stickguy‌

Ha! That would be hilarious! We'll try the old "HEY! MY BUDDY HERE WANTS TO BUY A CAR TODAY. WHO WANTS TO SELL HIM ONE?" routine.

Don't laugh, but I have found in the past that cars are somewhat cheaper in Rockland. In CT, we've got the dreaded "Conveyance Fee" of anywhere from $199 to $499 so it is just one less layer of BS to negotiate through. I have no problem travelling to Westchester, Rockland, or even Long Island to get a good deal on a car. 2 of the 3 cars in my fleet are from Rockalnd (Prelude & BMW).

I'm going to test drive closer to home though & always give the "hometown dealer" a last chance to earn my business. There is a VW dealer & a Subaru dealer in Stamford. Nissan is in Darien (next town up on 95). Honda is in Greenwich (where I bought my Pilot) or Westport (where we service our Pilot).

brian125 · May 2014

A Minivan is like Term life Ins. It helps you get thru the early years with kids then you move on to bigger and better..A Family of 3, or 4 makes a minivan a great choice. A Family w 2 kids maybe you go for that suv. I cant recall one person who bought a mimivan that said this was a mistake. Minivans are great family haulers..

I Had a minivan.   Dodge caravan back in 1982 when my 2nd son was born.. I used to tell my friends I bought it for my wife. I to was in denial..  Over the next couple of years any long trips/ Vacations outside of NYC when we drove I really enjoyed this van.  I was recently in a 2014 Toyota Sienna.  Rode like a car very spacious, quiet with so many upgraded features and creature comforts. The new Odyssey has  a Vacuum cleaner attached to the back.   People with large family's  are foolish to overlook one of these rolling refregerators.  I think its a great investment  for family hauling and the younger kid years.

Put three little rug rats in cars seats in a SUV. Is there much room left. Did you leave your wallet at the pump to buy the upscale or larger SUV?

I guess the choice is yours.... be a Nerd and make your life simply and easy for a few years.

You guys dead agaisnt mini's shouldn't worry Minivan owners probably know your cooler then them... Enjoy those SUV/ CUV's.

I guess the yellow highlight means Nerd alert>>>> Ive been tagged

akirby · May 2014

And since when are SUVs and CUVs "cool" or "status vehicles"? They're neither exclusive nor prestigious.

brian125 · May 2014

Exactly my point.............. You look no cooler in a Suv, or minivan with 3 kids. To me if your driven a Sequoia or a Pilot , etc does not make you look more hip than a minivan owner..

Thats my view

dudleyr · May 2014

A minivan is just about the only vehicle that seats 5 (or 6) adults comfortably on a long trip. 3 Accross in one row is tight even in a Suburban (at least with three large sons). The minivans have a useable third row seat. No SUV has that - not even that Suburban. The third row is cramped and your knees are up in your chest.

My wife's Sienna seats 6 in stretched out comfort. The minivan is not mini anymore. My oldest son goes to college in the fall, and we will probably replace the Sienna. My wife still wants a hatch/wagon/van for shopping trips (furniture etc). The problem is that if you get something with good room for her and 3 six footers you leave out crossovers like the CRV and have to move up to a Venza or Highlander sized vehicle. If you are there you might as well get an Odyssey as it is cheaper, gets better mpg and has much more room. So we may wind up with another minivan for lack of a better choice.

Wish they still made a nice sized wagon like the Accord or Camry. I know the Venza is sort of a Camry wagon, but the Camry gets 35 mpg highway and the venza gets 25. Crosstour fares better in mpg compared to the Accord, but it is not a true wagon.

A little off topic, but these vehicles are based on sedans.

m6user · May 2014

akirby said: "Or maybe they just prefer the styling on the suv rather than the ugly minivan. Unless you need seating for 7 a midsized cuv or suv will provide the same utility for most folks but with more attractive styling."

And about dual exhaust......

akirby said: "Because it looks better. Not because it makes people think differently about the driver."

How a vehicle looks is very subjective I agree but you are only looking at the symptom and not the underlying "disease". Why do they think they look better is a better question? SUVs/CUVs are not beautiful vehicles by any means. They look different than vans but not necessarily better. They are still pretty ugly when it comes right down to it. I really don't think dual exhaust looks inherently better either. In fact, many very expensive, good looking cars have single or hidden exhaust. Dual exhaust looked great on on 1960s/70s muscle cars(and some of their current throwback lookalikes) where they actually served a purpose but on an I4 just to split the exhaust pipe at the rear of the car to make it look faster or cooler is kind of funny in a way. I have a Mazda6 that has dual exhaust and could easily do without it and actually think it would look better without it. My RDX has hidden exhaust and I like it just fine. I can understand the statement "it looks better" but that is strictly a personal opinion, not fact.

ab348 · May 2014

Given the disdain for minivans, I wonder why station wagons haven't made a comeback.

brian125 · May 2014

Remember Chevy Chase in the movie Vacation.. Is that the wagon your talking about.

akirby · May 2014

There is no reason for crossovers and suvs to be selling so well other than people like the styling. It's that simple. We just bought a 2014 Escape and I think it looks great. As do most of the small crossovers and suvs. We bought our first Explorer back in 93 - great looking vehicle to this day.

Just because you don't find them attractive doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way. If that was true then CUVs and SUVs wouldn't be selling so well.

OTOH - I don't know anyone who things a minivan looks good. They're just appliances. Some are less bad than others.

akirby · May 2014

I mean...seriously......no difference?

akirby · May 2014

But neither of those compare to an awesome midsized sedan! (back on topic - sorry)

explorerx4 · May 2014

My Fusion is highly styled. To me it means there was thought put into the design. There are lots of design/functional touches that are subtle. Do they all work? Not for me, but I can see a decision made that was not just driven by cost.

backy · May 2014

@akirby said:

OTOH - I don't know anyone who things a minivan looks good. They're just appliances. Some are less bad than others.

Well, now you know one. I always liked the styling of the 2001-7 Pentastar vans. (The 2007 T&C was my last minivan.) And the first-gen Previa was pretty cool looking IMO. Others... not so much.

They are appliances. But appliances with seats that magically fold into the floor! Maybe the best feature of any vehicle, ever.

[Deleted User] · May 2014

What minivans were originally is an alternative to the "decidedly uncool" station wagons. Like the 1970 Chrysler T&C my father had, green with wood sides and the rear facing jump-seats that I loved as a kid. It was the perfect family mobile, but as such it was shunned by anyone who thought they were cool...and that "uncoolness" trickled down to the masses. No one wants to be uncool. Even dads that mow the lawn in black socks and shorts don't want to be uncool.
Now the minivan is seen the same way. I never stopped thinking wagons were great. I loved my Mazda 6 Sportwagon. Loaded and in jet black there was no way it wasn't cool. It just depends on the car and the fickle consumer in the end. All the cool euro wagons cost a fortune, and the only alternative here was the Dodge Magnum. I didn't like it or the Charger it was based on. It looked ghetto cheap. (The 2011 and up re-skinned Charger looks great though, and is quite fast with the V8).

A Kia was never a cool car. I can't believe the brand survived, and I scoffed at them knowing I would never buy one, but here I am. If it wasn't based on the Sonata, I would have walked away; but I am sure glad I didn't.

[Deleted User] · May 2014

@robr2 said:
But Nissan has managed to sell twice as many of the "Mallfinders" as the previous BOF,, 4x4, ;pw range unit. The market reality is that the old style SUV is no longer desired by most of the market.

Yeah, I know. My mother in law bought one. I have no idea why. Before it she had another huge Nissan minivan that I so disliked I didn't bother to ask what it was.

[Deleted User] · May 2014

@brian125 said:
A Minivan is like Term life Ins. It helps you get thru the early years with kids then you move on to bigger and better..A Family of 3, or 4 makes a minivan a great choice. A Family w 2 kids maybe you go for that suv. I cant recall one person who bought a mimivan that said this was a mistake. Minivans are great family haulers..
I Had a minivan.   Dodge caravan back in 1982 when my 2nd son was born.. I used to tell my friends I bought it for my wife. I to was in denial..  Over the next couple of years any long trips/ Vacations outside of NYC when we drove I really enjoyed this van.  I was recently in a 2014 Toyota Sienna.  Rode like a car very spacious, quiet with so many upgraded features and creature comforts. The new Odyssey has  a Vacuum cleaner attached to the back.   People with large family's  are foolish to overlook one of these rolling refregerators.  I think its a great investment  for family hauling and the younger kid years.
Put three little rug rats in cars seats in a SUV. Is there much room left. Did you leave your wallet at the pump to buy the upscale or larger SUV?

I guess the choice is yours.... be a Nerd and make your life simply and easy for a few years.

You guys dead agaisnt mini's shouldn't worry Minivan owners probably know your cooler then them... Enjoy those SUV/ CUV's.

I guess the yellow highlight means Nerd alert>>>> Ive been tagged

The first year for the Caravan was 1984.

robr2 · May 2014

@akirby said:
There is no reason for crossovers and suvs to be selling so well other than people like the styling. It's that simple. We just bought a 2014 Escape and I think it looks great. As do most of the small crossovers and suvs. We bought our first Explorer back in 93 - great looking vehicle to this day.

One reason for the popularity of CUV's is the aging of the American population. The higher seating position allows for the proper hip point for older folks to enter and exit the vehicle.

explorerx4 · May 2014

It probably means that text was copied from somewhere else. Notice the font is different. Either way, you're busted.

stickguy · May 2014

my wife got used to sitting up high in her 17 years of driving a minivan. One reason she liked the CUVs when we downsized. I tried to push to get a nice sedan (BMW) and keep the van for the spare, but she didn't go for it. probably because she didn't trust me to let her have the nice car!

[Deleted User] · May 2014

So today is my cars 2.5 year anniversary with 27,780 on the odometer. I hope it still looks this good at 100k! Since we have been off on a SUV/CUV/Wagon tangent, and that I actually still miss my Grand Cherokee too; so I will post both vehicle pictures.

brian125 · May 2014

@backy said:
They are appliances. But appliances with seats that magically fold into the floor! Maybe the best feature of any vehicle, ever.

The folding in floor seats makes a great feature. My dodge was new at the time I dont even think the rear seats detached from the floor yet.

I remember my Dodge van after just a couple of years the screws were poping out of the chairs and the one captain chair use to rattle to no end. At 45k my trans was leaking. The A/c was on the blink and the front end needed work.

Robr2, said we are getting older thats why we are seeing more cuv's .

Eight of the top 11 states with the oldest populations are in the Northeast.

The median age in Maine is 42.7 years old; in Vermont and New Hampshire it’s above 41. West Virginia’s with a median age of 41.3 years, 8.4 years older than it was in 1990. Getting alot of old geezers up your way.

brian125 · May 2014

@cski said:
The first year for the Caravan was 1984

Need to apoligize to my son he was a 1984 model .

[Deleted User] · May 2014

@brian125 said:
Remember Chevy Chase in the movie Vacation.. Is that the wagon your talking about.

No, that was a Ford Country Squire with an extra set of head and taillights added on It was an LTD wagon basically,.and renamed the Crown Vic a few years later. (Just the fact that I knew that w/o looking it up makes me a dork).

The funny thing is, that Ford actually doubled the taillights of an Expedition on the Navigator. I looked almost as bad, and the Family Truckster came to mind every time I was behind one.

See pics:

Truckster is in some museum:

ab348 · May 2014

There is a mint late '80s/early '90s Country Squire wagon that lives at a house I pass on my commute home most nights. I am tempted to stop, check it out, and leave a note with my phone number under the wiper.

[Deleted User] · May 2014

@ab348 said:

There is a mint late '80s/early '90s Country Squire wagon that lives at a house I pass on my commute home most nights. I am tempted to stop, check it out, and leave a note with my phone number under the wiper.

Note how the Family Truckster even has wood paneling on the hood! One of the most popular wagons of the 70's was the Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser. It was featured on "That 70's Show".

The pictures below are the hot-rod 455 versions that I didn't even know existed. So, maybe there WAS cool wagons made in the good old USA of the 60's and 70's!

Also, before we get back to mid sizer' s, I had to mention the most modern example of the Family Truckster:

ahightower · May 2014

Those Caprice and Roadmaster wagons have become cult classics. I love me a barf bench. One day I'll have an AMG wagon and take the kiddos to the drag strip, have them wave at the Camaros I'm dusting.

b25nut · May 2014

@nyccarguy said:
Just to keep this on topic, I am looking at a few Mid-Sizers for when the lease is up on my 2011 328xi this coming September. I'll be checking out the Passat TSI, the Passat TDI, the Legacy, the Altima, & the Accord EX. I'll keep you posted on my test drives and experiences.

You have to at least give the Fusion/FFH a try. After 19 months and 19K miles, there has not been one problem with reliability. My lifetime MPG is 42.0 and I've averaged 43.4 mpg for the past 3K miles, with very few cars passing me on the highway. I'd get a FFH Titanium in a heartbeat if I didn't plan on keeping my current SE model for another six years.

nyccarguy · May 2014

@b25nut‌

I'll have to look into what kind of lease terms (residual & money factor) Ford Credit has for the Fusion. They certainly are nice cars. I know @explorerx4‌ has a gorgeous Titanium that he loves! My in laws both have Fords (2011 Flex SEL AWD & 2013 Escape SE AWD) and they are super happy.

btw, is that your house? WOW! Gorgeous!

[Deleted User] · May 2014

b25nut: Nice Fusion! It just needs a 35% tint and a beautiful woman in a windblown red dress with her arm draped over it... then Bingo! Instant Fusion commercial! Which engine do you have?

I have been trying to get you guys to post picture's of your mid-sizer's forever!

ahightower: Oh yeah, I saw the write-up on that Mercedes AMG wagon (or "Shooting Brake" as the Brits like to call it.) Too bad I will probably never be able to afford one.
I have to admit being smitten by the green 72' Old's Vista Cruiser 455 in the picture above. Just a bad a** ride.

stickguy · May 2014

You could easily retro mod a vista into a 455 clone. Might be fun.

I remember one of the many Saturday morning car shows took a Malibu wagon (1970 something, pre downsized I think) and hit riddled it but kept it a sleeper. Very fast.

And if course car and driver did a series of boss wagons.

[Deleted User] · May 2014

@stickguy said:

I remember one of the many Saturday morning car shows took a Malibu wagon (1970 something, pre downsized I think) and hit riddled it but kept it a sleeper. Very fast.

And if course car and driver did a series of boss wagons.

What does "hit riddled" mean? Anyway, I love cars but not so much working on them. If I tried to restore a wagon it would look like this:

Note the steeply raked body, and my tasteful interpretation of the classic wood sided estate wagon executed in a rustic door applique'. Just gorgeous.

stickguy · May 2014

Hot rodded. The iPad fights tooth and nail to change it to that.

brian125 · May 2014

@cski said:
Note the steeply raked body, and my tasteful interpretation of the classic wood sided estate wagon executed in a rustic door applique'. Just gorgeous.

I'd love to pull up with this spacecraft at a upscale wedding and have them valet it.. LOL

The only thing this ride needs is tinted windows and mud guards.

Cski............ you are one crazy kid. I bet this was yours years ago.. Were you one of the little rascals?

b25nut · May 2014

@nyccarguy said:
b25nut‌

btw, is that your house? WOW! Gorgeous!

We took a drive to Cambria, which is 30 minutes from my house, the day before Christmas and found this cul-de-sac. It was a typical California winter day. Our house has views of vineyards instead of the ocean.
The Fusion Hybrid only has the 2.0 Atkinson ICE. I don't think there is a better car on the planet for under $45K. I paid the MSRP of $33.5K. I wasn't going to haggle over price when I was getting one of the first FFHs sold in Southern California. The feeling of having the only vehicle of its kind in my area for four months was worth paying a little extra.

brian125 · May 2014

CR Reports just slap down the Honda Accords hybrid claim of getting 47 mpg. CR claim is only 40 mpg. They found similar finding with Ford and Hyundai awhile back.

The Ford Fusion seems to be on the top of alot of lists for best car/ hybrid version.

Here is CR take on gas mileage tests.

In its own test of the 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid, found that the gas electric model – priced from $29,155 to $34,905 — averaged just 40 mpg in the EPA Combined cycle, a full 7 miles per gallon below the figure on its Monroney, or window, sticker.

In our testing, hybrids generally get some of the best overall gas mileage in their classes, led by models such as the Toyota Prius (44 mpg) and hybrid versions of the Honda Civic (40), Ford Fusion (39), and Toyota Camry (38). But an owner expecting to get the same mpg shown on the window sticker and in advertising for some of the cars might be disappointed.

Of the hybrids we’ve recently tested, 55 percent fell short of their EPA combined city/highway estimates by 10 percent or more, with hybrids built by Ford showing the largest discrepancies.

At 34 mpg overall, the Lincoln MKZ Hybrid is invitingly thrifty. But it gets 11 mpg less, or 24 percent lower, than its 45-mpg EPA figure. The C-Max and Fusion hybrids fall 10 and 8 mpg, respectively, below their advertised 47 mpg. Similarly, the Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid also falls 8 mpg short.

stickguy · May 2014

not Ford's problem. Blame the EPA. they designed very specific test parameters the makers have to follow. CR should spend a billion $s on the equipment and run the same tests before they complain.

brian125 · May 2014

Cr seems pretty accurate with there findings. Alot of those cars mentioned people i know claim there mpg were more in line with CR reports then on there window sticker. I like to hear from the Fusion owner., or the Hyundia or malibu owner. I know My V6 Accord does not get what the sticker says it should, Nor my Bmw X-5 or Genesis r-spec { well that one i know why with its 430 hp }

[Deleted User] · May 2014

I really never considered a Hybrid when I bought my car in late 2011, as I thought it would be a lot of complexity and possible problems down the road that may me exorbitant down the road.

So....

I am still comfortable with my 2.4 liter naturally aspirated Optima EX ;
As a car guy I really admire the turbo SX Optima with it's 74 extra ponies and similar boost in torque.

I have had turbo motors in the past, and I am aware of how hot their components get. Glowing red hot engine parts mean that something eventually will fail, and when that happens the bill is somehow never reasonable in any way.

explorerx4 · May 2014

Geographically, I'm close to CR. CT has lots of hills and cold weather, neither of which are conducive to getting max mileage from a Hybrid.
My Fusion 2.0 turbo is rated at 26 mpg combined. I'm averaging 27.5, so far. Winter mileage is 24.5 to 25.5. Now that the weather has warmed up, mileage is sitting close to 29 mpg.
If I had to do it over again, I'd get a Hybrid SE, about the same money as I paid. Don't need all the power of the 2.0 Turbo.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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