Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

dino001 · May 2014

4-series Gran Coupe (low ride, 4 doors, rear hatch, stylishly sloped back) is already on BMW's website. Pricing is basically same as the normal coupe. They're probably underpricing it (in relative terms, of course as we all know BMW are too expensive in general, but that's a different discussion) vs. the established segments (there is more metal in GC than coupe). I like that, 435i GC is now on top of my list. Not quite "entry level", but not full luxury, either. After I add "stuff", the list price will be mid-to-high 50s. A lot, I know. I'll wait of course, never buy a new thing, let the market to sort it out. One thing missing is the manual tranny, but I already made peace with myself getting an automatic as my next car.

njuser · May 2014

Hi flightnurse,

In couple of your posts you have mentioned that it's possible to lease a 320i with pricing between 250 to 300 with MSD's etc. Can you give an example on how its possible. I have sent pm's to couple of client advisors on bimmerfest, but they are on west coast and gave me emails of salespeople of the east coast, I emailed them but haven't heard back. At what NET cap cost a lease of around 300 is possible with minimal down + 7msd's. I am open to leasing a demo or service loaner on a 320i xdrive or 328i xdrive. Any help is appreciated.

flightnurse · May 2014

@njuser said:
Hi flightnurse,

In couple of your posts you have mentioned that it's possible to lease a 320i with pricing between 250 to 300 with MSD's etc. Can you give an example on how its possible. I have sent pm's to couple of client advisors on bimmerfest, but they are on west coast and gave me emails of salespeople of the east coast, I emailed them but haven't heard back. At what NET cap cost a lease of around 300 is possible with minimal down + 7msd's. I am open to leasing a demo or service loaner on a 320i xdrive or 328i xdrive. Any help is appreciated.

http://garage.bimmerfest.com/siteSponsor.php?&action=listsitesponsorindex

this is the sponsor list from Bimmerfest, there is a guy I have seen his postings he is from NY but do not see his listing on this page, there is someone from Morristown. He should be able to help.

In regards to lease of 320i, go to cars.com and build yourself a 320i they will give you invoice of the car and can send this build to 3 dealers. A local guy on Bimmerfest was able to lease a 2014 320i (on dealer lot) base 320i with 6 spd mannel and Sport Package, out of pocket if I remember was $3700 includes 7 MDS and fee's he had everything else rolled into the lease. Payments are $299/tax 36 months and 15K/yr.

flightnurse · May 2014

@m6user said:
flightnurse: Quit taking it so personally and falling into other poster's traps. They are talking about a model of car, not specifically your actual car, and certainly not your child or partner. Chill brother. You have to admit that the 320 hardly could be called a performance car when many run of the mill midsize sedans have more room, power and bells and whistles than the basic 320. A lot of naturally aspirated I4s have more HP than the 320 and when optioned out are many thousands less than a similarly equipped 320. The two things that the 320 has going for it are the luxury nameplate and experience and possibly handling. I say possibly handling because the Mazda6 handles pretty darn well and has more HP than the 320.

So, really, one can say the 320 is an entry level luxury sedan but is lacking on the performance side. Heck, people on here used to complain that the TSX with a measly NA I4 with 200hp and shouldn't be included because it wasn't performance enough.

The issue is that 99% of the posters here have never driven a 320i, they just see HP figures and make comments. In base form without my upgrade I never had a problem in everyday driving, 200lbs of torque comes on at 1250 (500 more then idle) and the 8 spd transmission really makes the car feel faster.

With my performance mod I have done, my 320i is faster then any stock E90 328i. The price I paid for my 320i with Mod is a bargain. All the "luxury items I hear the 320i lacks, if i didn't get in the car, then I didn't need it. Premium package and leather is want I wanted, it gave me the sunroof, power seats (front) folding side mirrors, and all power down windows and comfort access.. The dealer could have gotten me a 320i sport with the Premium package, but I would have had to wait 5 days... I needed a car now. So I'm happy... This car goes to my younger niece next year, and since the new 4 series GC was just released, has caught my eye.

sweendogy · May 2014

Wow this discussion has just heated up-- love it. The tsx comment correct it should not be here-
from May @flightnurse said: Graphic, when it comes to cars brand means a lot. Look at Hyundai, Rick's Genesis is a perfect example. It has the same content as a E class and 5 Series and the price is that of a mid level 3 series. The ride is on par with a Lexus GS, but it does not have the star on the hood or the roundel. So people could get a Accord over a CLA but wont.

Now we understand why people would pay 35k for basically a badge - thanks @flightnurse‌

and yes I was against buying an auto - but in reading reviews on the s4 I learned the car was faster and more efficient in auto form- and since I was buying used & I wanted one with audi select with rear sports dif, nav and upgraded b&o radio. Finding a car as equipped is like trying to find a 320 with no sunroof and a manual - impossible certainly up east.

flightnurse · May 2014

@dino001 said:
4-series Gran Coupe (low ride, 4 doors, rear hatch, stylishly sloped back) is already on BMW's website. Pricing is basically same as the normal coupe. They're probably underpricing it (in relative terms, of course as we all know BMW are too expensive in general, but that's a different discussion) vs. the established segments (there is more metal in GC than coupe). I like that, 435i GC is now on top of my list. Not quite "entry level", but not full luxury, either. After I add "stuff", the list price will be mid-to-high 50s. A lot, I know. I'll wait of course, never buy a new thing, let the market to sort it out. One thing missing is the manual tranny, but I already made peace with myself getting an automatic as my next car.

Yes the 4 series GC is a looker, and you are right they are under pricing it, and the one you prices is it 435? With the stage one mod on a 428i it's just as quick as a stock 335. The one I priced at was $50K, minus 8% for ED, plus BMWCC, USAA, and Grad money, one i built could be had for 42K and change.

nyccarguy · May 2014

@flightnurse‌

I know you are happy with your 320i. I believe you said you have even chipped it to make it faster for a not so unreasonable amount of money. I'm not knocking the 320i. I had one as a loaner once. For my daily driving needs it would suit me just fine. Around town I found it comfortable and docile. It rode smooth on the highway. I'm quite sure the current body style chassis is stronger and the 320i handles better than my 2011 328xi. I did find myself having to plan a little bit for passing maneuvers. I don't like the MASSIVE headrests or the giant screen stuck on top of the dashboard. I even think the 320i is a much better looking vehicle than the X1. I was simply stating that dollar for dollar, you get better acceleration on an X1 28i vs. a 320i and an X1 35i vs. a 328i.

I know that BMWs even in their "base" form are better driving cars than their competitors. Our 1st BMW was my wife's 2007 X3 that had 3 options: Heated Seats, Rear Privacy Glass, & Metallic Paint. We loved it. The fact that BMW offers a 320i with a dedicated RWD platform sets them apart from the competition.

I think it is amazing that a dealer stocks a 320i with a 6 speed stick & sport pkg. Around here, the cars all have X Drive and an automatic (I know why, I took my Prelude yesterday forgetting that it was a "get away day"). A Sports Package around here with our Texas sized pot holes and crumbling roads is a no-no.

There are faster cars in the price range (Sonata Turbo, V6 Accord) for even less money. There are cars that offer more luxury features & gadgets for less money too. Just because they are faster, more powerful, and offer more gadgets doesn't make them better cars at all.

dino001 · May 2014

Yes, it was 435 Sports Line, Premium, Technology and Driver Assistance Packs - that goes into second half of fifties. One may keep adding stuff, HK sound, nicer wheels, whatever. I was just looking at list, to get an idea. Not sure how much I'd really have to pay, as I don't get USAA or grad money. BTW, I believe ED is 7%, might go for it, but maybe not. Done it once already.

I don't believe you'd be able to stack all of those discounts with ED - may be wrong. Did somebody make you such offer, or you just imagined that number? I'd like to meet people ho can really get 50K list brand new BMW model for 42 grand. I don't think there are many.

flightnurse · May 2014

@dino001 said:
Yes, it was 435 Sports Line, Premium, Technology and Driver Assistance Packs - that goes into second half of fifties. One may keep adding stuff, HK sound, nicer wheels, whatever. I was just looking at list, to get an idea. Not sure how much I'd really have to pay, as I don't get USAA or grad money. BTW, I believe ED is 7%, might go for it, but maybe not. Done it once already.

I don't believe you'd be able to stack all of those discounts with ED - may be wrong. Did somebody make you such offer, or you just imagined that number? I'd like to meet people ho can really get 50K list brand new BMW model for 42 grand. I don't think there are many.

On you on Bimmerfest? People post their deals on it all the time. Some just posted their deal on a 2014 328d wagon:

Fully loaded F31 input greatly appreciated (no trade in)

MSRP $ 62450.00

Capitalized Cost $57405.00
Capitalized Cost Reduction 0.00
Subtotal $57405.00
Acquisition Fee $725.00
Security Deposit $4200.00
Drive Off $725.00
Residual Value Percentage 63.00%
Residual Value $39343.50

Money Factor 0.00081
Monthly Lease Rate $ 78.37
Lease Term in Months 36
Monthly Depreciation $ 501.71
State Sales Tax Rate 0.000%
State Sales Tax $ 0.00

Payment
$ 580.07

There is 0% tax in SC. Only a $300 registration fee applies.

tlong · May 2014

Honestly sometimes the snobbery stereotypes of BMW drivers are apparent even in this forum. Really, your car doesn't measure testosterone levels.

I'm not particularly a huge fan of BMW, but I can admire their vehicles and what they've done in the marketplace.

To me, being "sporty" is NOT about horsepower or torque. Sure, that's nice, but if that were what was important I'd buy a Vette or a Camaro. Straight-line acceleration is not what makes an ELLPS appealing to me.

I admire and appreciate, shall we say, "precision". I like precise, tight steering. I like a reasonably comfortable, yet firm and precise ride. I like going around corners, not at 0.8g, but in a way that the steering feel is precise, I know exactly where the car is going to go, and I can feel the feedback through the steering wheel. I don't even particularly care to autocross my vehicles or pull high g's in corners.

So I also like a "nice" interior. I can get fairly lower-horsepower, "precise" vehicles at reasonable cost (the Mazda 3 comes to mind). But those vehicles usually don't have the "nicer" interiors that I like. It was all of these thoughts and characteristics that caused me to buy an A4 in the late '90's. And now I drive an '05 TL, and you know what - although the interior is "nice" and the horsepower is quite good, the driving dynamics are still a bit too floaty/boaty and lacking.

So I DON'T begrudge somebody liking a 320i. It's not all about testosterone, or horsepower, at least to some of us. And it's not about snobbery, either. We all have different needs and tastes. Insulting each others' rides - well, pretty childish IMHO.

stickguy · May 2014

Tlong, you sound like me. I think a good word to use is Balance, along with control (you mentioned precision).

justg0 · May 2014

@tlong said:

To me, being "sporty" is NOT about horsepower or torque. Sure, that's nice, but if that were what was important I'd buy a Vette or a Camaro. Straight-line acceleration is not what makes an ELLPS appealing to me.

I admire and appreciate, shall we say, "precision". I like precise, tight steering. I like a reasonably comfortable, yet firm and precise ride. I like going around corners, not at 0.8g, but in a way that the steering feel is precise, I know exactly where the car is going to go, and I can feel the feedback through the steering wheel. I don't even particularly care to autocross my vehicles or pull high g's in corners.

I couldn't agree more. I just traded in my BMW 335d (M-sport package) and got a BMW 320i (Sport package) and I am loving it.

I was looking at other similar cars in the price range - Audi A3 2.0, VW GTI, Honda Accord, but none of these came close to fun that I had when I test drove the 320i with Sport package. I would have been able to get more standard options with all other models, but none of them came close to the handling and nimbleness that was there in the BMW (my opinion).

I also looked at 328i (Sport line and no line). The 328i Sport line was definitely faster compared to 320i, but only if you went at it hard. In normal to mid range driving (which is what I normally do), I found really no difference. 328i without sport package felt too soft.

I am actually having more fun driving the 320i than I had in my 335d, which had much higher HP and gobs of torque.

dino001 · May 2014

I just attended BMW's drive event with 4-series, C350 coupe, S5 and Lexus IS. I drove 435 with Msport line, Benz and Audi. All three are very nice. S5 felt sportiest of them, the DSG shifts made sounds like computer game. Its supercharged engine had phenomenal note. Benz was plush, well balanced, still quite quick. BMW had everything in great balance, the sports suspension was what I like. The exhaust note more throaty than I remember on 335 I drove during the performance delivery in Spartanburg. They also had 428 Gran Coupe on display. It's gorgeous. Back seat headroom is too small for 6 feet tall person, but the extra utility of hatch is great. Love the looks. Couldn't drive it, as that one was preproduction European model, even had manual transmission, not available for US market. It's definitely on my list, but I'm not rushing in to put a deposit down.

BTW, I had a great conversation with the product rep about some features. They reportedly changed the start/stop feature defaulting to last setting, as opposed to previous always going back to active. It is reportedly US market only, in Europe they kept the old one due to carbon emission garbage. The shaking on restart is reduced and also depends on which cylinder restarts first.

sweendogy · May 2014

@dino001‌ thanks for sharing that seems like a cool event. Just looked online @ 435 (grand) and the hatch body def improves overall looks. Looks like the bigger engine will not be avail at launch(?) with xdrive. Which I think is a little disappointing but I guess bmw has to cut something as they have the most complete line of vehicles out there.

dino001 · May 2014

The 335 xdrive will come not so long from the launch, it already is on the pricing lists, just blacked out (or to be exact, yellowed) for now.

nyccarguy · May 2014

"I admire and appreciate, shall we say, "precision". I like precise, tight steering. I like a reasonably comfortable, yet firm and precise ride. I like going around corners, not at 0.8g, but in a way that the steering feel is precise, I know exactly where the car is going to go, and I can feel the feedback through the steering wheel. I don't even particularly care to autocross my vehicles or pull high g's in corners."

Very well said

plekto · May 2014

OK, let's get serious for a minute. 4 doors and leather and nav and doesn't suck at handling?
I put every option that I could find on a Focus ST, plus the special paint, moonroof, and so on and got a Truecar price of $27K.

4 doors. Handles better, looks better, is faster. Almost 335i fast, in fact. Those full leather Recaro seats are also very comfortable, despite their color scheme. So if you want more performance, you have a better option for less money.

Or you can go the other way and want more luxury and better performance for the same money. Auto magazines compare the 335i and the G37 routinely. I think the poor 320i will end up roadkill vs even the base model G37.

It's not that BMW doesn't make good cars, it's that they did the same thing that Lexus did with the miserable IS250. It's so weak, bland, and uninspiring to drive compared to the bigger version that it really doesn't deserve to be in any category other than "next".

sweendogy · May 2014

@plekto - forget about it- as flight explained in his genesis comments from May, its about brand has nothing to do with what you actually get. I would ask flight he bought a 320 while his partner got a genesis- 2 cars that are very close in price but far in spectrum.

justg0 · May 2014

@plekto‌ - Focus ST or G37 or GTI all are very nice cars in terms of handling and performance. I think it comes down to personal preference in what you like.

So who would pay BMW premium to get a 320i with lower horsepower? I am quoting from an article that I read online (http://www.bimmer-mag.com/issues/120/articles/practical-considerations?page=4#.U4odyagWeG0):

Beyond that entry-level buyer, here’s who should also consider the 320i: urban commuters seeking BMW handling, luxury, connectivity and panache, and those upon whom the harsh realization has dawned that they don’t need a rocket car to satisfy their daily driving needs. From stoplight-to-stoplight, it would be rather nice to use less gas, and it’s equally nice to spend less money. The 36-month lease payment is $50 less for the 320i than that for the 328i, and even though the latter is much quicker and potentially faster, you won’t miss that sitting in traffic. The two cars are virtually indistinguishable at light throttle under 40 mph. Why pay more?

That's me going from a BMW 335d to 320i. I save $200 per month on my lease and I am actually having more fun with the 320i. Maybe because its lighter, not sure, but it feels just more lively and the handling is so much more precise.

I could have gone with Focus ST or G37 and saved some more money (for some reason the GTI and A3 lease much higher due to really bad residuals), but decided to stay with BMW, since having had it before, I knew exactly what I was getting - a RWD sedan that handles great and is lot of fun to drive in around the city.

sweendogy · May 2014

Don't mind the above response understandable wanting to save money, and get a rwd sedan & if you can due it with weather, but is this car a ELLPs under that configuration, no it's not - Lexus once sold a RWD is250 that could be had with a 6 speed - they sold it as a performance sedan- no one bought this configuration or cared- even caddy which is aiming big time at the bmw has a similar priced car and a base engine with similar weak power but neglected to give us the manual because it's not a real draw with the weaker engine-non-turbo, it's more of a pricing thing I guess. Real performance seekers would never opt for the 4 cyl 180 non turbo- it's bland. Also real lux seekers would never opt for a pleather, base stereo, no power seat car - doesn't add up- car is not Ellps. And at the bargain price of 35k really? And done

dino001 · May 2014

Have you even driven it, Sweeny? How do you know it's so bad and weak? I have not driven it myself, perhaps my next service visit I get a chance, if dealer finally turns that 328 loaner inventory. I must say, I rather believe a guy who actually drove it and wrote that article that said this 320 reminded him the old 325 he actually owned (which has been basically a benchmark defining the category in its balanced design), rather than a guy who looks at some number tables and proclaims the thing not being worthy his time.

BTW, isn't it interesting that today's car having track time of 1988 M3 (just 26 years) can be seen as having a "weak engine"? Sure, things evolved and expectations today are somewhat different then 20+ years ago, but perhaps we went a bit too far. It is true that the competition honestly caught up with BMW in lot of aspects of that category, a lot of that started in arms race in brochure values of the horsepower, or straight line accelaration numbers combined with adding nice stuff to it. It is a new reality. Over 200 horses, 3000 lbs, we still complain too little of thise or that. Consumer is the king. BMW themselves also evolved in direction that many think lost some original appeal. But I simply cannot take your argument that just because some numbers don't align with your idea what ELLPS should be, it doesn't belong. Until I actually sit inside and try it, I don't know.

sweendogy · May 2014

@dino001 - quick - no never driven it. No interest.

", I rather believe a guy who actually drove it and wrote that article that said this 320 reminded him the old 325 he actually owned (which has been basically a benchmark defining the category in its balanced design), rather than a guy who looks at some number tables and proclaims the thing not being worthy his time." Me too and Agree, look at article I posted to start this. Car and driver good enuf? So not getting the point- I always cite research / professional articles when talking- more fact less fiction ask flight and 'leader ad' argument, epic. But I'd rather believe a professional then someone who ownes a 320 and tells you how great it is going to whole foods.
bmw you hit it on the head they were part of the problem(?) by adding hp. But so did ford, caddy and others and there is no defending the weight power of this car vs lesser (non lux badged) cars when considering what's included , you can drive it all you want- and if you buy it you will say real world driving the car is on par with the 328, and for whole foods runs it's going to perform great, but 60 hp loss vs 328, which some argue is already overpriced, 35k stripped is a joke in MhO. We get it people are huge bmw guys but is the 320 - other bmw lovers talk about how its a great drivers car but wasn't the older (2012) a better driver? Here's what edmunds comment "Base price skyrockets with options; electric-assist steering sacrifices some feel; skinnier tires in this base model."
I'll put my tables away- TKO.

roadburner · May 2014

Lots of read testing going on here; much like arguing about movies when you've only seen the trailers...

justg0 · May 2014

Yeah, there are plenty of reviews out on 320i, most being positive. Here are a couple that I can point to:

http://jalopnik.com/the-six-letters-you-need-to-know-if-you-want-a-bmw-472513915

http://jalopnik.com/let-chris-harris-explain-why-the-jalopnik-edition-bmw-1514877066

If you haven't drive one, definitely watch the video above.

But you really have to drive it to feel it. Reading stuff can only do so much. I would love to hear from people who have driven one, especially with ZSP...

stickguy · June 2014

I heard this a lot when I was looking at a 535i (2001 model I think) back then. Oh, too slow, underpowered, what a dog, yada yada yada.

except when I drove it, I found it incredibly well balanced, smooth, and powerful. Merging down an on ramp at 40 it shot up to 70 quite quickly (and smoothly!). Maybe the manual tranny helped, but I doubt I would have ever thought it was underpowered.

plekto · June 2014

The article above said it perfectly...

"here’s who should also consider the 320i: urban commuters seeking BMW handling, luxury, connectivity and panache, and those upon whom the harsh realization has dawned that they don’t need a rocket car to satisfy their daily driving needs. From stoplight-to-stoplight, it would be rather nice to use less gas, and it’s equally nice to spend less money."

There's a harsh bit of reality in all of that, though. The type of driver who is all of that will be buying the car with automatic virtually 100% of the time.(barring some oddball statistical freak who you find to come here on this forum just to dispute this)

So no manual. But, wait... everyone says that to be ELLPS it has to have manual...

So are we talking "offered with manual so that I can say it qualifies, despite that nobody buys this model with manual" or "It's not the real thing unless it has manual - let me show you the pictures"?

So... no manual, no power, no luxury, and 30K?

Tell me how this qualifies. All I get out of this equation is ELS... Entry level sedan. If we are to believe that article, the driver who is satisfied with that for their daily driving needs would probably be happy with anything if it had the right badge on it to impress their co-workers for a few seconds.

P.S. I'd like to see the person who has one here answer me that question:
Manual or Automatic in your 320i?

roadburner · June 2014

@stickguy said:
I heard this a lot when I was looking at a 535i (2001 model I think) back then. Oh, too slow, underpowered, what a dog, yada yada yada.

except when I drove it, I found it incredibly well balanced, smooth, and powerful. Merging down an on ramp at 40 it shot up to 70 quite quickly (and smoothly!). Maybe the manual tranny helped, but I doubt I would have ever thought it was underpowered.

You're dead wrong stick, the guys who have only read about E39s know MUCH more about them than than you do! Two of my BMWs have 150 bhp or less and they are two of my all-time favorite cars to drive. In fact, I still use the Club Sport at HPDEs; my students are amazed at how fast an "underpowered car" can go when driven properly.

On the other hand, I have a hot hatch that puts over 300 bhp through the front wheels. It is also fun, but in an entirely different way.

Of course many of the "experts" in this topic would dismiss all three cars because-oh the horror!-none of them have full leather power seats. The seats are extremely comfortable and have outstanding lateral support, but those attributes pale in comparison to the ability to push a button and move your seat 1mm forward or back...

andres3 · June 2014

@flightnurse said:
Interesting comment coming from someone who never owned a BMW, just for the record, my loaner was a 328d, which had M sport package. The dealership I deal with had X1's, 328i, 328d's and a few X5's. No 320i's as loaners.

To be fair your offering a sample of one single BMW dealer, and the 320 has just come out recently. Give it a few years. Still, maybe I was being overly harsh, I"m sure they'll be an assortment of loaners, only it will probably include the 320.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2014

Well then, the argument for the 320 has to be that a 328 is not worth an extra $50 a month. That seems a bit weak, no?

justg0 · June 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Well then, the argument for the 320 has to be that a 328 is not worth an extra $50 a month. That seems a bit weak, no?

I think its worth it for people looking for that extra hp. Its the same argument when going from 328 to 335. Is that extra hp worth the premium you pay? Only the person buying can decide that for themselves.

Another thing is that in reality the difference comes out to be more like $100 or more. The moment a dealer gets a car with Sport line or M Sport, they put some much other stuff that the car gets lot more expensive. I was hard pressed to find a 328i with just Sport line and nothing much more. So unless you are willing to custom order and wait, you would end up paying much more.

@plekto said:

So no manual. But, wait... everyone says that to be ELLPS it has to have manual...

I can bet 90% of people who buy the cars in the ELLPS category, whether BMW, Audi, Lexus, Mercedes, etc. get automatic (and also probably have never seen this forum). I haven't looked at any data on this, so if someone has anything to support or refute this, would appreciate that. I am just going on based on what I found on dealer lots when I was looking. So, in that case none of these cars would qualify to be a ELLPS, we might as well close this forum down

And yes, I did get an automatic, but that's my personal preference. BMW does make it available in manual like their other 3 series.

m6user · June 2014

If this was a forum about ELPS one would expect no power seats, no leather, no sunroolf, no high tech in the dash, etc. But most buyers, when they are looking for a luxury car, expect those kinds of things. Hard core rally guys could probably care less as all they really care about is does it run and is it fun to drive. But when one positions the discussion to talk about entry level LUXURY PERFORMANCE sedans then at least a moderate level of luxury should be expected or we might as well include Mazda6s and Honda Accord V6 in the discussion. Luxury cars are not strictly delineated by the car but by the dealer, warranty, service etc that also comes with the purchase of luxury nameplate.

The reason why many on here were opposed to the TSX being included here was that it didn't seem to have the performance side nailed down. However, it did have the luxury side nailed down pretty well as most of the things recently mentioned came standard on it.

I think when you buy(and pay extra for) a luxury car from a luxury nameplate there should be somewhat of a basic standard which one can expect without having to option the vehicle up to the hilt just to reach the standard that most other luxury brands start off with. Some here almost come across as denigrating those that do like a little luxury with their auto by making statements like "if it doesn't come with it I don't need it or if I don't need it to shift gears, what good is it". Not direct quotes but silly just the same.

andys120 · June 2014

Here's an argument for the 320i vs. the 328i: according to some of the gearheads at the Bimmer-love sites, a $1000 worth of chipping and flashing would bring the 320i to the 328 level of power and torque.

I have no idea if this is true but it might be if (as I have read) the 320 motor is basically a de-tuned version of the one in the 328. It's amazing what a little extra boost can do for a turbo four.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2014

Well I wouldn't be so quick as to outguess the German engineers with chips or flashing. At least not on a brand new car.

sweendogy · June 2014

Seems like a good idea- lease the cheapo 320 with min options, spend 1k in performance mods on that said leased car to go faster.

justg0 · June 2014

It is the same exact engine, just de-tuned, but the pistons are different: http://www.f30driver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=966132

With a simple plug and play install, you can get it up to 220hp. If you want more, you get get it to 260hp+, but that involves some more invasive stuff: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=262536

Mr_Shiftright · June 2014

That boosts turbo pressure +4 psi.

flightnurse · June 2014

@justg0 said: I think its worth it for people looking for that extra hp. Its the same argument when going from 328 to 335. Is that extra hp worth the premium you pay? Only the person buying can decide that for themselves

Not really as I posted before I have the BMS Stage 1 plug and play on my car, 30+hp and 40 lbss+ more of Torque. All for $350. This drops the 0-60 time to 6 secs, and if you add this to the 328i, During closed course GPS VBOX testing Burger Motorsports 2012 F30 328i 0-60 times improved from 5.4 seconds to an incredible 4.9 seconds!. I have no doubt of the times, so moving up to a 328i over a 320 has to be more then just HP, there are other options that are only available on the 328 and not on the 320i.

Now granted most people wouldn't put the stage 1 on the car, I love it, I have driven a 320i with the stage 2, depending on the "map" chosen boost is increased another 3 PSI. 260 hp to the rear wheel, on a 328i 303 hp. For a total of $545.

flightnurse · June 2014

@andys120 said:
Here's an argument for the 320i vs. the 328i: according to some of the gearheads at the Bimmer-love sites, a $1000 worth of chipping and flashing would bring the 320i to the 328 level of power and torque.

I have no idea if this is true but it might be if (as I have read) the 320 motor is basically a de-tuned version of the one in the 328. It's amazing what a little extra boost can do for a turbo four.

This is for your reading pleasure.

burgertuning.com/N20_BMW_performance_Tuner.html

burgertuning.com/N20_Jb4.html

260hp for a 320i

303hp for a 328i

flightnurse · June 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Well I wouldn't be so quick as to outguess the German engineers with chips or flashing. At least not on a brand new car.

Why?

I've had my stage 1 now for 3 months and no problems..

I've had my car in for service and the dealer didn't say a word about the tune.

sweendogy · June 2014

If that is true that its 350 and 545 used dollars to boost hp that much and have no engine or warrantee issues - then right on- seems like the way to go. I've seen the video of a stock s4 being boosted for more power then euro rs4 -

http://jalopnik.com/how-to-make-an-audi-s4-perform-like-an-audi-rs4-in-five-468612234

m6user · June 2014

If it is so cost effective and does absolutely no harm, I wonder why BMW doesn't just offer it as an upgrade under warranty for about triple the price and make all that much more profit. Seems like a no brainer for BMW. Seems like there is more than meets the eye here.

kyfdx · June 2014

It's all sunshine and roses, until you have an engine issue... Think BMW will warranty it, then? Because if you've been in for service, they've certainly noted it, in your service record.

justg0 · June 2014

I think you take it off before you go in for service. I would if I ever get around to doing it.

stickguy · June 2014

I suspect they can tell you added it even if you go back to stock. And for sure, if something abnormal goes (blown engine?) odds are you are getting the short end of the crankshaft.

and why don't they offer it? They do. It is called the 328. The whole point of the 320 is to have an entry level, with the big $ jump to the next model up. if they give you the factory HP boost, I think you essentially just end up with a strippo 328, right?

roadburner · June 2014

Depends on the ecu. The BMW units log flashes, so they will know if you returned it to stock. I think it can also detect some piggybacks, but I'm not 100% sure...

qbrozen · June 2014

I can tell you from first-hand experience that the ECU logs overboost events, and you can NOT get rid of those, no matter what the tuner's website says. I went through all the steps to "erase" the evidence before bringing my 135i in for service and a limp mode issue. The advisor came to tell me they knew I had a tuner on it and explained the above to me. He was cool about it, but you could easily get someone who isn't so tuner friendly.

tlong · June 2014

@plekto said:g
The article above said it perfectly...

"here’s who should also consider the 320i: urban commuters seeking BMW handling, luxury, connectivity and panache, and those upon whom the harsh realization has dawned that they don’t need a rocket car to satisfy their daily driving needs. From stoplight-to-stoplight, it would be rather nice to use less gas, and it’s equally nice to spend less money."

There's a harsh bit of reality in all of that, though. The type of driver who is all of that will be buying the car with automatic virtually 100% of the time.(barring some oddball statistical freak who you find to come here on this forum just to dispute this)

So no manual. But, wait... everyone says that to be ELLPS it has to have manual...

So are we talking "offered with manual so that I can say it qualifies, despite that nobody buys this model with manual" or "It's not the real thing unless it has manual - let me show you the pictures"?

So... no manual, no power, no luxury, and 30K?

Tell me how this qualifies. All I get out of this equation is ELS... Entry level sedan. If we are to believe that article, the driver who is satisfied with that for their daily driving needs would probably be happy with anything if it had the right badge on it to impress their co-workers for a few seconds.

P.S. I'd like to see the person who has one here answer me that question:
Manual or Automatic in your 320i?

" performance" can mean handling, too. Does it corner like a BMW? Does it have the same suspension?

To me, the lack of manual would be a bigger issue than the HP.

justg0 · June 2014

@tlong said:
" performance" can mean handling, too. Does it corner like a BMW? Does it have the same suspension?

To me, the lack of manual would be a bigger issue than the HP

Yes, its the same. You can get the Sport package, which gives it the M Sport suspension and M steering. But you can't get DHP, I think for that you need to get 328.

flightnurse · June 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
That boosts turbo pressure +4 psi.

3+ = 220 HP

@m6user said:
If it is so cost effective and does absolutely no harm, I wonder why BMW doesn't just offer it as an upgrade under warranty for about triple the price and make all that much more profit. Seems like a no brainer for BMW. Seems like there is more than meets the eye here.

The same could be said why does BMW only offer the Performance Pack for the 335 and not the 328. Over in Europe BMW has a Performance Pack for all boosted engines. There is talk over on Bimmerfest that a power upgrade might come to the 2016 320 and 328i as that is when the mid model refresh appears.

flightnurse · June 2014

@kyfdx said:
It's all sunshine and roses, until you have an engine issue... Think BMW will warranty it, then? Because if you've been in for service, they've certainly noted it, in your service record.

The upgrade can be take off the car in 15 minutes, and since the upgrade does not interact with the ECU BMW can not "see" if a upgrade was ever on the car. It would be a uphill battle for BMW to prove that I had added anything to the car.

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