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Comments
I was up in Acadia National Park in Maine this week. Spotted some oddities:
mid 60's Buick coupe - about 27' long
a 72 Olds Cutlass Supreme - it had the egg crate tail lights like my old 72
some sort of Ferrari in Bar Harbor.
I kinda like that T-bird, too. I thought that generation looked good with the hidden headlights, but I didn't like when Bunkie Knudsen started working the beak into the design. It also looks nice with roll-down rear windows and lack of a vinyl roof. I hate the style that has the really thick C-pillar that totally does away with the rear windows. I didn't like the '64-66 models that did that, either.
I think GM did this market so much more tastefully, with the Riviera, Toronado, and Eldorado. The GM cars seemed more classy, handsome, and refined, whereas the T-bird seemed a bit rough around the edges. And a bit pimpy.
I agree. Also I think Ford had trouble selling that era T-Bird at such a high price point against Buick, Cadillac and Olds - the Ford brand didn't support that very well. I never felt that they were all that well-made either.
I did like the beak-nose model quite a bit actually, though. I thought it took away some of the stodgy look they tended to have by then.
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I suspect this Bird, lacking vinyl top, would have been more of a base model? Funny how it is now more desirable due to aesthetics. I also don't like those vinyl top models with what must be a huge blind spot. I think the 64-66 ones carry it better though.
The 4-door Birds were odd too, I remember seeing them now and then when I was younger, and something about the rear door irked me.
Last night, saw a 68 Olds Cutlass 4 door HT (the "small" one, I guess) at a supermarket, a young couple in it.
1963 Rolls at a rest stop on I-81 just a bit north of Abington VA.
Now THAT'S a Roller!!
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Heck with that.
I want the chair!
Oh, that U haul in the background is exactly like the one I drove from Philly to Albany a couple weeks back.
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Yep, Rolls made a pretty nice car up to the mid 60s, and it went horribly downhill from there, until BMW got ahold of them.
I didn't have to drive far, but I rented a U-Haul last Sunday, to move my son and his roommate out of their apartment (stored in roommate's parents' garage). Today, rented another U-Haul to take the garage full of stuff to the new apartment (2nd and 3rd floor of an old house). 17-footer, both times.
I am way too old to do this sort of work..
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Silver Cloud III - I am sure many see it as the last "real" RR.
The garage where I store the fintail has a couple new residents - an Alfa 164 slumbering under a cover, and a maybe late 70s vintage Alfa Spider in very dusty condition, sans bumpers.
On the road today saw numerous old American cars, including a ~65 Skylark convertible and a ~63 Continental.
Spotted this one at Macungie this weekend. It's a 1967 Pontiac Executive Safari. When's the last time you've seen one?
@Lemko - With a vinyl roof, no less! Never really understood the logic of those on a wagon...
I have a soft spot for '67 Pontiac fullsizers, as my dad had one when I was 11 years old and kept it for 3 years, which was forever in his world of car ownership. Good car.
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That Rolls has some honor badges along the lower grille., must be a cherished car.
Rear view of 1967 Pontiac Executive Safari wagon. The Pontiac wagon served as GM's top-of-the-line full-size wagon in 1967 as Olds and Buick were still relying on the mid-sized Vista Cruiser and Sport Wagon as their top-of-the-line wagons until 1970.
My mother bought a '67 Bonneville Coupe when I was 8 yrs old.. I get nostalgic when I see one, as well..
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@kyfdx, I had a 14' but they are otherwise the same. And at least you (I hope) had 2 kids to help. I loaded it all and unloaded/moved in with just me and my wife. Never, ever again.
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In a rerun of Family Affair when Mr. French and the twins get lost in the woods.
Which doesn't explain why the guy was cruising down I-81.
It goes through some scenic country but it's a miserable drive with all the traffic and trucks.
My wife's maternal grandfather worked for Rolls Royce in London in the 20's and the family story is that he stole some engine blueprints. He wound up as a tool and die man in NY State. Fun tale but who knows the real story.
>
That wasn't a Christmas episode, by any chance, was it? I remember a Christmas episode where Mr. French and the twins wiped out in a '70 wagon and got stuck, and went off and found a cabin to hole up. When Uncle Bill came by with the police, they were using a '70 4-door hardtop (Catalina I think) dressed up as a police car. Must have been a ritzy part of the woods where they got stuck.
I remember Mr. Douglas having a '67 Pontiac wagon on "My Three Sons". I think that was the season they moved from Bryant Park to California. I think it was blue.
I can't remember the last time I've seen a '67 full sized Pontiac wagon in real life, though.
If Mr. French made cocoa from a chocolate bar, then it was the same episode.
Knowing Rolls, they were probably still using 1920s blueprints to build their cars in the 1960s
Saw a 63 (.5, I think) Galaxie fastback today - unrestored patina, year of manufacture plates, fender emblem indicating a larger engine, keeping up with busy afternoon traffic like a modern car.
IIRC the 63 Galaxie fastback was a 63.5 in conjunction with the new XL model package. I liked those XL's, but the convertible version even more.
I think that the fastback Galaxie was indeed a 63.5. However, the XL package dated back to 62. However, in 63 (and 64) you could get the XL package in a 4-door hardtop. Unusual, but I would not mind having one (esp a 63).
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
I do seem to remember that fastback roofline being referred to as a "1963.5" as well. As for the more formal, upright roof, I've always wondered if it was shared with the 2- and 4-door hardtops?
Holy Chrysler! Looks like I ended up buying a chick car!
1957 DeSoto commercial
I thought she was better in Spartacus.
You can still get a whiff of sexism in that ad: "And I love the push button shifting..it's so....SIMPLE!"
Irony is that the DeSoto ad was prefaced by YouTube with a BMW ad. Wonder who cross-shops those two?
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Mine had a Ram pickup commercial...Mopar, at least.
I like the Cole Porter tune that DeSoto used. It's memorable. Have you ever read anything about the royalties Chrysler Corp. paid to use it?
Might have been a one-time payment deal.
""Its delovely, its dynamic, its DeSoto."
7-Up also used this tune.
I didn't realize the Ford XL came out in 62. Was it an option package rather than a trim line that year? I guess I never recalled it being advertised until the 63.5 fastback release. Thanks for the info update.
I wouldn't be too concerned about Desoto as a chick car. Dodge played that end and the muscle end at the same time back in those days. In fact, I remember Pontiac's in the 60's being aimed at females, while other of their ads pushed testosterone. Cover all the niches!
The Standard Catalog of American Cars, that fascinating but flawed resource, lists it as a separate series called the "sporty" trim level.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Ugh, it's getting better... Here they're plugging the '57 DeSoto as sort of a pre-historic minivan! Perfect car for a woman And her family, too!
Exner really stuffed it to GM and Ford in 1957--1959; too bad Chrysler didn't really appreciate what he had done for them style-wise. By 1962, Chrysler design was back in nowheresville.
I think DeSoto had great ads. Don't know why it didn't grab more market share from Oldsmobile and Buick, even though DeSoto managed to gain some market share in 1955 and 1957. It's just a guess, but maybe it was because change occurred faster between the solid, but stodgy pre-1955s and the the trend-setting 1955- ~1960 models than public perceptions. Also, the quality problems must have held Chrysler Corp. cars, in general, back. From the 1930s through 1954 Chrylser was, in certain ways, kind of like the Toyota of that era; well engineered, good quality, reliable, long-lasting, comfortable, but not very cool. The 1957s traded these attributes, plus chair height seats with enough head room for even a tall man to wear a hat, for low, trend-setting styling.
Chrysler had very confused marketing at the time--they sort of baffled their potential buyers. Dodge, Desoto, Plymouth? Whaa?
GM models were very distinct in buyers' minds--you "climbed the ladder" up through Chevrolet right into Cadillac. The path was laid out for you.
Everyone knew that a Mercury was just a re-badged Ford in the 50s.
I saw a pristine early 90s Caprice at Costco this morning, in that dark red that was popular then (and coming back). Also an early 80s Civic.
In the GM ranks, Buick was the first, I think, to break the ranks of that hierarchy. On the low end they had the Special, which really wasn't much more expensive than a Chevy Bel Air if you equipped them similarly. For example, in 1955, a Special 4-door sedan started at $2291, while a Bel Air was $1932. The Olds 88 4-door sedan was $2337, while the Pontiac Chieftain was $2164. Oh, for comparison, the cheapest DeSoto that year, the Firedome 4-door sedan, started at $2498.
But, in the upper ranks, there was the Roadmaster, which started at $3349 for a 4-door sedan. For comparison, a Cadillac Series 62 sedan started at $3977. An Olds 98 4-door sedan started at $2833. Chrysler in those days was slotted in a more prestigious position than it would be in later years. The Windsor sedan started at $2660, while the New Yorker 4-door sedan came in at $3494.
So, in those days, you could actually start off with a Buick as a somewhat entry level car, but stick with them, move up to nicer cars, and almost have a Cadillac. That might explain why Buick was so popular for much of the 50's, claiming the #3 spot in sales for a few years, behind Ford and Chevy, who would occasionally swap #1 and 2. Unfortunately though, because of that popularity, quality suffered, and by 1957 word was getting out, and sales dropped. Also that year, the new Plymouth took off, with sales strong enough to claim #3, a spot it hadn't had in awhile.
But, it wasn't too long before Chevy, Pontiac, and Olds started adopting that formula. While Chevy and Pontiac never got that close to Cadillac pricing, the Caprice and Bonneville Brougham models were, nonetheless, very nice cars. Olds also bumped up the 98 in prestige starting in 1959, when it moved from a stretched B-body on up to the C-body that the Electra and Cadillacs used.
I think Chrysler's strategy worked, for awhile, because at least a Dodge was bigger than a Plymouth. And a DeSoto bigger still. And while a Chrysler and DeSoto were the same size, the Chrysler was still more luxurious and upscale, and had a bigger engine. And then the Imperial, even if it still used the New Yorker engine, was bigger still.
But, that wouldn't last, especially once the increasingly crowded middle-price market imploded in the 1958 recession. DeSoto got squeezed out, but so did the pricier Dodges, as Dodge retreated into Plymouth price territory with the Dart lineup. And Chrysler itself moved downscale, as it dropped the Saratoga after 1960, and came out with the Newport, which undercut the Windsor. And even the New Yorker would move down a bit in price.
A few weeks ago, I posted a CL ad for a 1985 500 SEC Euro with hubcaps, black on black. I saw it in Bellevue today, didn't look bad. I also saw a ~1960 Lark, and a 1961 Ford 4 door post made up to look like a police car (American Graffiti maybe), both near Puyallup.
I also stopped by to preview the oddball auto auction, and they had some weirdos again. First year A8, 1996 build date - money pit to the nth degree no doubt. A final run 1997 Saab 9000 along with a 1984 900 Turbo. A really clean 1982 Corolla with 300K+ on the clock and an immaculate apparently original interior, maybe under seat covers for 30 years. Also a very clean 1982 Cavalier CL coupe, 4/81 build date, just over 100K on it, also nice interior - out of an estate I bet, you don't see those around much anymore. Only MB was a C280 with wheels of a R129 SL, typical condition for a 20 year old car.
Saw a yellow/white Karmann Ghia while we were in DE this past week. Hadn't seen one in quite a while. The wife had no idea what it was, but she knew that the driver thought it was more of a sports car than it actually was.
Too bad Desoto couldn't have survived until the muscle car era. But the dull Chrysler styling of the early 60s really did the company harm.
an Andre mobile out running around locally. A bright red, very clean looking late 60's somewhere Catalina 400 convertible. With the top down. Big car.
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Dull? I'd call early 60's Mopar styling anything but dull! Off-the-wall, radical, over-the-top, garish, grotesque, etc, but I dunno if dull would fit in there!
I always wondered though, how things would have turned out if DeSoto had hung around. From the concept car pics I've seen, they were planning on shrinking DeSoto for '62, just as they had Dodge and Plymouth. So, I don't know how well that would have gone over. I've heard that the shrunken '62 DeSoto was almost approved for production, and supposedly Exner liked it better than the Dodge and Plymouth that ultimately surfaced.
I dunno though...from the pictures I've seen, the '62 DeSoto concepts weren't very attractive, either.
I had thought that if DeSoto had made it into the late 1970s, their lineup might have been something along the lines of Firesweep=Diplomat/LeBaron, Firedome=Newport, Fireflite=New Yorker, and Adventurer=Cordoba. But, considering how little Chrysler differentiated some of those cars, by that time, DeSoto would have been just another clone.
I'm kinda glad DeSoto went away when it did, in some ways. At least the name was never trashed by being associated with Lean Burn, bankruptcy, FWD, K-cars, etc! So, at least it ended on a high note, relatively speaking.
It's also pretty amazing how quickly they could get rid of a division back in those days. Once it was realized that the Edsel was going to be a flop, Ford canned it in just over two model years, and then they were able to move Mercury back downscale for 1961, and canned eliminated the devoted '59-60 Mercury design. The decision to terminate DeSoto was made in 1959, and the last one rolled off the assembly line on November 18, 1960. But in more recent times, it seemed like they let brands like Plymouth, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, and Mercury drag on for ages, standing at Death's door, reluctant to knock...
I thought the decision timing for Olds in particular was especially odd. IIRC, the announcement was made right as the new Aurora and Bravada were launched, and those vehicles seemed to have some potential, so it seemed like GM was starting to get serious about Olds. But, their impending orphan status no doubt scared many buyers away.
Wow, I just noticed a bit of a coincidence. It was November 18, 2009, that my Intrepid was terminated as well...cut down prematurely in life by a hit-and-run while unattended in a parking lot.
Ironically, Desoto always seemed to me as the Mopar Olds. In the 70's and 80's the Olds segment really took off, so who knows about Desoto's potential then. OTOH, Chrysler seemed to be squeezing Desoto at both ends, so it all may have been moot anyway.
Okay, not "DULL"---just not in touch with buyer's tastes anymore. And the Valiant was totally BLAH. It all turned bad after Exner left--then Chrysler left the engineers in charge of styling.
After Exner came Elwood Engel from Ford and a lot of mid to late 60's Mopar's seemed to resemble Ford styling. Personally, I thought Chrysler products got more conservative, but I don't know if I'd say "dull". Actually, GM seemed to get a bit more conservative in the latter half of the decade too. Maybe America was just taking a break and slowing down some.
I attended the local MBCA show earlier today. I'll post an album later, and a few highlights now. First off, for the first time since I've been there, another fintail showed up - this freshly renovated W110 230:
Highlight was probably this W112 300SE cabrio - this was top of the line then, and quite rare, less than 1000 total units for worldwide consumption, I think. A complex car with air suspension and the big M189 engine, which I think is related to the engine in a 300SL gullwing. This was a stunning piece:
And this old dear was there, of course. Not one of the best days out, but it got me there and home:
Well, the 1960 Valiant was a pretty popular car. It came in well behind the Falcon, but only about 60K units behind the Corvair. A pretty good showing, considering that Chrysler lacked the capacity of Ford or GM. Style-wise, I'd consider the Valiant to actually be pretty radical, compared to the Corvair or the Falcon, especially. The Corvair was radical in its engineering, but other than the grille-less front-end, it was rather plain. As for "plain", well you could almost go to Google, type in the word "plain", hit "I'm feeling lucky", and get a pic of a 1960 Falcon!
I think the problem back then is that GM reacted, and not in a good way, to the 1957 Mopars once the designs got leaked. And the end result was the 1959 GM cars. Meanwhile, Mopar countered by reacting to the '59 GM cars, and their result was what we saw from Mopar around '60-61!
Actually, that overly styled, "European" look of the 1960 Valiant sort of worked. But it didn't apply as well to the larger cars, like the '62 Plymouth/Dodge, or the '63-64 Chrysler. I have to admit though, that I think the '62 Dodge Dart/Polara models are kind of cool, in an offbeat sort of way. That turbine-inspired styling is at least interesting on them, whereas I think the '62 Plymouth is just ugly.
It must have been hard as hell to sell a standard sized '62 Plymouth, when they were new. The Chevy that year was downright gorgeous, and the Ford is handsome, in a more conservative sort of way. And by then, they were even facing competition from within, as the Dart lineup pretty much matched the Plymouth lineup. It started off as Seneca/Pioneer/Phoenix against Savoy/Belvedere/Fury, but by '62 I think they went with Dart/Dart 330/Dart 440.
I guess drivetrains were probably a good selling point for the Mopars though, as the 225 slant six, mated with a 3-speed Torqueflite, were more than a match for the 6-cyl/speed combos that Ford and Chevy were pushing. And in V-8's, with Mopar you jumped straight to a 318, while the others were messing around with stuff like the 283 and 292. So the Plymouth probably drove better, accelerated better, and got a bit better economy than it s direct GM and Ford counterparts. If only you could put a paper bag over it!