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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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Comments

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165

    I like the greenhouse on the downsized 62's, but the front and rear end are the culprits. I think they may have filled out better on a full sized chassis. But in any event I don't think it would be the slam dunk of the 57 forward look. Maybe it could have caught some attention like the 59 GM's if they hadn't shrunk them though. Everybody assumes it was the 62 styling, but maybe the smaller size played into the problem every bit as much, or more? That downsizing pushed more than a few Mopar loyalists to a competitor product.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    @fintail, as much as I like white cars, your blue fintail looks better than the freshly renovated one.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited August 2014

    @andre1969 said:
    Well, the 1960 Valiant was a pretty popular car. It came in well behind the Falcon, but only about 60K units behind the Corvair. A pretty good showing, considering that Chrysler lacked the capacity of Ford or GM. Style-wise, I'd consider the Valiant to actually be pretty radical, compared to the Corvair or the Falcon, especially. The Corvair was radical in its engineering, but other than the grille-less front-end, it was rather plain. As for "plain", well you could almost go to Google, type in the word "plain", hit "I'm feeling lucky", and get a pic of a 1960 Falcon! ;)

    I think the problem back then is that GM reacted, and not in a good way, to the 1957 Mopars once the designs got leaked. And the end result was the 1959 GM cars. Meanwhile, Mopar countered by reacting to the '59 GM cars, and their result was what we saw from Mopar around '60-61!

    Actually, that overly styled, "European" look of the 1960 Valiant sort of worked. But it didn't apply as well to the larger cars, like the '62 Plymouth/Dodge, or the '63-64 Chrysler. I have to admit though, that I think the '62 Dodge Dart/Polara models are kind of cool, in an offbeat sort of way. That turbine-inspired styling is at least interesting on them, whereas I think the '62 Plymouth is just ugly.

    It must have been hard as hell to sell a standard sized '62 Plymouth, when they were new. The Chevy that year was downright gorgeous, and the Ford is handsome, in a more conservative sort of way. And by then, they were even facing competition from within, as the Dart lineup pretty much matched the Plymouth lineup. It started off as Seneca/Pioneer/Phoenix against Savoy/Belvedere/Fury, but by '62 I think they went with Dart/Dart 330/Dart 440.

    I guess drivetrains were probably a good selling point for the Mopars though, as the 225 slant six, mated with a 3-speed Torqueflite, were more than a match for the 6-cyl/speed combos that Ford and Chevy were pushing. And in V-8's, with Mopar you jumped straight to a 318, while the others were messing around with stuff like the 283 and 292. So the Plymouth probably drove better, accelerated better, and got a bit better economy than it s direct GM and Ford counterparts. If only you could put a paper bag over it! B)

    I'm among the minority who like the trimmer sized 1962 Plymouths and Dodges, including the styling. They were a bit smaller, but not small. As such, for me they represent a return to sanity, in terms of size. The increases in size couldn't go on for ever, as at some point you reach a point of diminishing returns, in terms of tradeoffs (maneuverability, fuel economy, parking, practicality). While many will disagree, I think that point was reached by the late 1950s. Most buyers saw it differently at that time.

    Today, I can't think of a car that was as big as Detroit's fuller size behemoths of the 1960s and 1970s. Escalades and Expeditions don't count, since they're trucks, nor does the Mercedes S-Class and the Roller, since they're so up-market compared with the old mass market Detroit iron. Unfortunately for Chrysler, the 1962 Plymouths and Dodges were down-sized prematurely in a business where timing is crucial. These models essentially repeated the mistakes of the reduced size 1953-1954 Plymouths and Dodges. They also lost market share. GM, on the other hand, timed downsizing correctly for 1977 and 1978.

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261

    Those downsized 1962 Plymouths and Dodges were very popular with hot rodders and police departments. As an aside, I spotted a very nice silver-gray 1965 Chevrolet El Camino on Oxford Avenue near Pine Road in NE Philly.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655

    @hpmctorque said:
    I'm among the minority who like the trimmer sized 1962 Plymouths and Dodges, including the styling. They were a bit smaller, but not small. As such, for me they represent a return to sanity, in terms of size. The increases in size couldn't go on for ever, as at some point you reach a point of diminishing returns, in terms of tradeoffs (maneuverability, fuel economy, parking, practicality). While many will disagree, I think that point was reached by the late 1950s. Most buyers saw it differently at that time.

    IIRC, the '62 Plymouths and Dodges were around 202" long, and on a 116" wheelbase. A Chevy Impala was on a 119" wb, and around 210" long, while a Ford Galaxie, also on a 119" wb, was around 209". From what I've heard, the Mopars gave up very little in interior room. Headroom and legroom was good, although shoulder room no doubt suffered, as the cars were about 3-4" narrower than their Ford/GM competition. They might have given up a bit of trunk room as well...even though 3" less wheelbase isn't much, and could be taken out ahead of the firewall, or using wasted space in back, without any noticeable change in the passenger cabin, the reduced overall length may have cut into cargo space a bit.

    However, the Fords didn't have very big trunks back then, either. They were wide, but very shallow. The '60-64 Fords, while they had a new body, still used the old '57-59 frame. It's not obvious, until you look in the trunk, and see the area where it goes over the rear axle. And in using the old frame, the trunk floor is as high as it was in '57, but the rear deck is lower, so that robbed some height. Chevies used a deep well in the trunk, similar to what Ford did in later years, right up until the last Panthers rolled out, even.

    As for a tipping point in length, I think you're right that the limit was pretty much reached around 1957-59, although mainly with luxury cars. In looking around, it looks like the '58-60 Lincolns, 229" long on a 131" wheelbase, were about as big as it got, unless you went to limited production like the Cadillac 60 Special, Fleetwood 75 Limo, etc.

    Even into the 70's, cars really didn't really push that limit. I think a few cars, like the Electra, 98, Cadillacs, Lincolns, and the likes of the '74-75 Imperial and '76-78 New Yorker Brougham, hit the 230-233" mark. But, by that time they had 5mph bumpers that inflated the length. What happened instead though, was that more mainstream cars got bigger, and started catching up to the luxury cars. For instance, a '57 Chevy Bel Air was 200" long on a 115" wb, while a Cadillac 62/DeVille was on a 129.5" wb, and was 216" long for sedans, around 221" for 2-door models.

    By 1975, a full sized Chevy was on a 121.5" wb, and around 222" long. Meanwhile, a DeVille was up to a 130" wb, and around 231" overall. And, by the mid 70's, even some midsized cars broke the 220" barrier. The Ford Torino/LTD-II wagons did, as well as the wagon versions of the Coronet/Satellite and the "New, Small Fury".

    I think about the biggest a compact got was around 205-206". The Dart/Valiant got up to around that, although they cheated, IMO, with those thick rubber blocks they used for bumper guards. The Diplomat/LeBaron were also about that size. I guess you could argue whether or not they were compacts, as they debuted right on the cusp of downsizing. They were bigger and heavier than GM's downsized intermediates, which appeared a year later. However, when they first came out, they were marketed as upscale compacts, and were based on the Volare/Aspen, which was marketed as a compact, as well. It wouldn't be until a few years later they started marketing them as midsized cars, and by the mid/late 80's, I think they were even trying to market the M-body Diplomat/Gran Fury/5th Ave as "full sized" cars!

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    "Highlight was probably this W112 300SE cabrio - this was top of the line then, and quite rare, less than 1000 total units for worldwide consumption, I think"

    3,127 my books say. The really rare one was the 300d Adenauer cabriolet.....only 65 of those.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited August 2014

    I recently ran over a sharp metal object with my wife's A4 Quattro. In addition to demolishing the tire it also damaged the alloy wheel. I took the wheel to a wheel repair specialist, and there was a '61 Olds Cutlass sedan parked outside his garage, a Corvair truck (Chevy's counterpart to the VW bus), and a couple of other not-often-seen oldies. However, inside his garage he was building a very unusual rat rod, or whatever you'd call this rare beast. It was a 1969 W114 sedan bare metal body, on blocks, with a Ferrari engine sitting on a stand next to it. The shop owner was working on it. Next steps, in whatever order, were to prime and paint the body and install the Ferrari engine. He gave me the sense that he knew what he was doing. When he's done he'll have the ultimate sleeper, if the exhaust sound doesn't alert other drivers and the law. Neat idea, though!

    The shop owner is familiar with Ferraris, since he owns an older one. He loves them, even while admitting that they're wallet drainers.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    Wiki/Werner Oswald says 708 units - maybe they combined coupes and cabrios. The one I want is a LWB sedan, of course.

    @Mr_Shiftright said:
    "Highlight was probably this W112 300SE cabrio - this was top of the line then, and quite rare, less than 1000 total units for worldwide consumption, I think"

    3,127 my books say. The really rare one was the 300d Adenauer cabriolet.....only 65 of those.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    Sounds cool! Needs a "200" or "220D Automatic" badge.

    @hpmctorque said:
    I recently ran over a sharp metal object with my wife's A4 Quattro. In addition to demolishing the tire it also damaged the alloy wheel. I took the wheel to a wheel repair specialist, and there was a '61 Olds Cutlass sedan parked outside his garage, a Corvair truck (Chevy's counterpart to the VW bus), and a couple of other not-often-seen oldies. However, inside his garage he was building a very unusual rat rod, or whatever you'd call this rare beast. It was a 1969 W114 sedan bare metal body, on blocks, with a Ferrari engine sitting on a stand next to it. The shop owner was working on it. Next steps, in whatever order, were to prime and paint the body and install the Ferrari engine. He gave me the sense that he knew what he was doing. When he's done he'll have the ultimate sleeper, if the exhaust sound doesn't alert other drivers and the law. Neat idea, though!

    The shop owner is familiar with Ferraris, since he owns an older one. He loves them, even while admitting that they're wallet drainers.

  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466

    @fintail said:
    Wiki/Werner Oswald says 708 units - maybe they combined coupes and cabrios. The one I want is a LWB sedan, of course.

    Hey Fin. I just saw a '65 300SE sedan advertised in Hemmings (it didn't state LWB; would that be a 300SEL?). Only 66K miles and close to you (Oregon). He's asking $50K. Such a deal.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited August 2014

    Was it a fintail or a W109? 1965 was a transition year for that model. They are very similar under the skin, but a 300SE fintail is much more sought after. 50K is insane though, that's German money for an amazingly nice car, and a 109 is worth a bit less even there.

    The 109s were called SEL, but LWB fintails were still just SE.

    @bhill2 said:

  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466

    @fintail said:
    Was it a fintail or a W109? 1965 was a transition year for that model. They are very similar under the skin, but a 300SE fintail is much more sought after. 50K is insane though, that's German money for an amazingly nice car, and a 109 is worth a bit less even there.

    The 109s were called SEL, but LWB fintails were still just SE.

    It's a Fintail. Black with green leather interior. That seems an unusual combination. I was going to post a picture, except it doesn't show up on the internet site. There is a black and white picture with the ad in the HMN.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    Correction: Circling back to my post #4199, the '61 Olds sedan was an f85 (the predecessor to the Cutlass) and the Corvair was a Greenbriar.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    I can't find it. Can you link the ad?

    When I was a little kid, an old couple on my block had a debadged fintail - it had a lot of chrome, so it was a higher model It was kind of a dark grey and white two tone, with a dark red interior. They did some odd things.

    @bhill2 said:

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    @fintail--yes, that was a combined coupes/cabs number.

  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466

    @fintail said:
    I can't find it. Can you link the ad?

    When I was a little kid, an old couple on my block had a debadged fintail - it had a lot of chrome, so it was a higher model It was kind of a dark grey and white two tone, with a dark red interior. They did some odd things.

    It isn't on the Hemmings web site. The best I can do is give you a lousy picture I took from the magazine (September HMN). You can rotate it using the View function in Adobe

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited August 2014

    Cool thanks. I think I've seen that car before - there used to be a site for W112 cars called 300se.org - now long gone - it was there. I remember seeing that with the green interior, it looks really familiar. It'd actually be worth 50K in Europe, if it all checks out, but not here. Cool car though.

    @bhill2 said:

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    A few pages of pics from the local MBCA show, a few oddities in attendance.

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited August 2014

    Here's one for fintail: a 1969 Mercedes 600 Presidential Landaulet, one of only 10 made, that was once owned by Nicolae Ceausescu of Romania:

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,440

    Get parts for that baby at any pep boys, right.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,032

    I wonder who signed off on the engineering for that convertible top stack.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685

    A 'classic' I haven't seen for years: a Fairmont, going east on I-30 out of -Dallas.

    On a trailer, of course...

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    Some of the 770K designers must have not yet retired by the late 60s.

    I've always assumed the folded top was so thick because the top itself is thick and complex - probably a Panzer-grade steel frame and several layers of cloth and insulation - not the tissue paper and coat hanger structure of some other ragtops.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    edited August 2014

    @fintail said:
    I've always assumed the folded top was so thick because the top itself is thick and complex - probably a Panzer-grade steel frame and several layers of cloth and insulation - not the tissue paper and coat hanger structure of some other ragtops.

    That also looks like an awful lot of top to have to store away, and not a lot of room to stuff it into. That low beltline, and tall roof, only exacerbate the issue. There's not much room in that spot over the rear axle, anyway. On some cars, like my '67 Catalina, the "coke bottle" shape gives a bit more space in that spot.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,440
    edited August 2014

    Need the trunk to be free to stash dead bodies.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    The size and shape definitely help. Along with that, it seems having a top that doesn't fold away invisible might be kind of an old time German thing - for "cabriolet" cars especially, whereas a "roadster" would have a more flush top. To illustrate, here's a MB 540K "Cabriolet"

    image

    Where the "roadster" had a flush top with cowl:

    image

    Come to think of it, even old Beetle cabrios had a bulky folded top.

    @andre1969 said:

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    edited August 2014

    A lot of older cars were a bit sloppy with their tops down. Even on Mopar's '57-59 Forward Look cars, the top looked like it stuck up about 4-5 inches when fully down. I think the fins help obscure that fact a bit, and often pictures are taken at more flattering angles. I only see them top-down with the boot installed over them these days, so that at least gives them a more finished look. I imagine they must look a bit sloppy without it. That was one of the issues they fixed for '60, when they went to Unibody, as the top went down pretty flat on those models.

    I have to confess, I'm pretty lazy with my '67 Catalina. I haven't put the boot over the top in years. It's just too much of a pain, trying to line up the little guide behind the seat, and then snapping all the little buttons in place. I got a new boot for it when I had all that work done to it about 6 years ago, and almost immediately some of the buttons came off.

    I think Ford did it the best, with tops that folded completely away and then were hidden under a sheetmetal or fiberglass cover. For instance, some of the T-birds and Lincolns. But, those setups were very complicated, and I'm sure prone to failure. I'd imagine some high-end Europeans hid the top completely like that, as well. Didn't Peugeot actually have a retractable hardtop in the late 30's? Or is that something else I'm thinking of?

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685

    @andre1969 said:
    I think Ford did it the best, with tops that folded completely away and then were hidden under a sheetmetal or fiberglass cover. For instance, some of the T-birds and Lincolns. But, those setups were very complicated, and I'm sure prone to failure. I'd imagine some high-end Europeans hid the top completely like that, as well. Didn't Peugeot actually have a retractable hardtop in the late 30's? Or is that something else I'm thinking of?

    You're right, the 1938 402b 'Eclipse':

    I thought there was another prewar European retractable hardtop, name was something like 'Decapotable'...??

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    I've seen that term used most with the open Citroen DS variants. I think it just means the equivalent of "convertible" in French.

    @texases said:
    I thought there was another prewar European retractable hardtop, name was something like 'Decapotable'...??

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685

    I thought it a bit ironic/funny that the originators of the 'Guillotine' would have a term that reads like 'decapitate' for a car....

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    That retractable is a Peugeot, circa

    Roadster and Cabriolet have become quite adulterated. Of course, most of these terms come from the days of horse carriages. In the old days, a roadster meant that the top stashed behind the seats and that you had side curtains. A cabriolet had roll up windows. (e.g., Model A Ford).

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    Saw a few old cars on the road today - trio of rat rod style Model As, immaculate Granada sedan for sale in a parking lot, nearby a Mark IV with a $900 sign in the window at a repair shop, early 70s Eldo convertible top down on the highway, well cared for looking Ford Elite, light yellow and white 57 Chevy 2 door HT

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805

    In the grocery store parking lot was a lovely Jaguar X Type wagon. The X Type wasn't the best idea but what a nice looking car.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    One one block in Seattle today, I spotted 2 weathered 65 Fairlane sedans, and a 65 Galaxie 4 door HT in similar condition. Someone has a hoarding issue. Also a ~50 Chevy pickup that looked like it had been there a long time, and a 62 Impala. And because it is Seattle (proper, city), endless old VWs, Saabs, Volvos.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655

    At least they're hoarding somewhat cool cars. I remember back when I delivered pizzas, I used to drive by one house on a regular basis that had THREE Tempos in the driveway!

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    When I was a teenager, my grandmother's neighbor had 5 Yugos - 4 of them parts cars. Back in the 90s when scrap was low, people would just give them to him. He was eccentric, and actually liked the cars as they were simple. Three Tempos might be less fun.

    Almost forgot, I also saw a red Mercury Zephyr wagon in Seattle.

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686

    @robr2 said:
    In the grocery store parking lot was a lovely Jaguar X Type wagon. The X Type wasn't the best idea but what a nice looking car.

    I, too, saw an X Type wagon this weekend, likely the same one? Today, an Infiniti M30 Coupe. Haven't seen one of those in...forever!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261

    Spotted a dark brown 1956-57 Continental Mark II sans wheelcovers in a driveway of a house in Philly's Pine Valley neighborhood.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    Saw a Studebaker Hawk, maybe a 58 or so, at the facility where the fintail is being repaired. That DeSoto from some time ago was still there, too. Also saw a Porsche 356 Cabrio at a nearby indy shop.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    Today I saw an immaculate Infiniti M30 convertible, and a pristine new looking 85-88 Cressida driven by a little old lady.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132

    1963 Thunderbird. Very light tan in brown tone. I believe there were some pink-toned light colors on Birds also. Original looking. Paint looked like original. I don't recall if it had a vinyl roof. Probably heading to a car show somewhere.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655

    I spotted a '69 GTO convertible, in good looking shape, but painted a dark metallic blue that looked too modern to be original. It was sitting in the parking lot of a repair shop. I felt a bit bad for it, because it was getting rained on. But, I guess a little water now and then won't make them melt!

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,032

    It just makes them rust.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097

    Some might remember a red on red 67 T-Bird I posted a while back - today I visited that lot, and the car was being delivered to a new owner. Older guy - 70s anyway - was happily taking delivery and driving off.

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,032

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655

    Wow, that thing is sweet! I always thought it was interesting that in many cars back then, cloth was the base material, with vinyl being an upgrade! I always tended to associate vinyl as a cheap material. But, in those days I guess, they found ways to make the cloth even cheaper! And in some cases, such as the Newport and St. Regis, there was another cloth interior that was optional. It was also a corduroy type pattern, but much thicker and high-quality, like something you'd find on a nice living room set back then.

    I had a '79 Newport with vinyl, and its vinyl was actually pretty nice. But I would have rather had the cloth. Even that basic cloth looks really nice, in my opinion. It looks somewhat similar to the cloth interior of my old '82 Cutlass Supreme.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    i wonder how it looks with the top down?

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    edited August 2014

    One thing I just noticed, that Newport looks like it has the tiny stock 195/75/R15 tires. I don't think I've ever seen an R-body in person with tires that small, as they most likely got swapped out to a larger size later in life. My '79 Newport had the optional 15x7 wheels with deep dish turbine style hubcaps, and 225/70/R15 tires on it. Unfortunately, the only pic I have of it isn't very flattering, but here it is...

    The car seemed pretty beat-up at the time, and in this pic it really needs a good washing. Heck, I rescued it from the junkyard, and only paid $250 for it. But looking at it now, it doesn't seem so bad. I see sellers at the various swap meets at Carlisle PA trying to hawk worse junk than this, from the same era, for thousands of bucks! Of course, just because those people are asking it, doesn't mean they're getting it! And, my Newport was "only" about 18 years old when I took this pic, in early 1998. Now it would be closing in on 36, if I still had it! It also had close to 250,000 miles on it in this pic.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Plymouth Prowler, with matching trailer. Nice sort of rusty brown color, NM plates.

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312

    1965 Barracuda(AKA fastback Valiant) clean and original.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

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