Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1430431433435436544

Comments

  • @brian125 said:
    cski,

    Sounds like the dealer will be checking these things to determine your problem. its always nice to have this done under warranty in the worse case scenario I listed below.

    Compressor Checks

    Start with the compressor. Does it engage when you turn on the A/C?

    If so, the compressor is working and the A/C system probably contains enough refrigerant to make cold air, so the problem is inside the HVAC unit. Replace the motor that controls the blend air door (this is a difficult job and best left to a professional since it involves tearing apart the HVAC unit -- about an 8 to 10 hour job!).

    If the compressor does not engage when you turn on the A/C, see if it will run by jumping the compressor clutch wire directly to the battery (use a fused jumper wire). If the compressor works when you jump it, and the A/C blows cold air, the system contains refrigerant and the fault is likely a bad A/C compressor clutch relay or a bad clutch cycling switch or pressure switch.

    If the compressor does not engage when you jump it, the problem is a bad compressor clutch.

    If the clutch engages but the compressor does not turn (the belt will start to slip and squeal), the compressor is locked up and you need a new compressor.

    If the compressor clutch engages and turns the compressor, but the A/C still does not blow cold air, the system is probably low on refrigerant and needs to be recharged.

    Hey brian125,

    I appreciate your troubleshooting advice. I have some down time today and I finally read everyone's post inn detail.

    The compressor kicks oink and sounds normal. There is cool air on the passenger side only like I said. Unfortunately I am not me3chanically inclined so I can't diagnose it, but I do have a very long warranty and also bought an additional 5 years and 40k bump 2 bump warranty.

    I am fortunate that a loaner car is available on major warranty repairs so maybe I can drive something sweet until they figure out my A/C system.

    I have to also say that I use the heck out of the climate control so maybe that is why it ran low early.

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681

    @cski said:

    I'm sure she's not stupid...but she'd go along with it and "reserve" her card to play at a later date...like when my former wife would always forget to bring her shoes when we went on a vacation. Darn, I forgot them...I'll need to buy a new pair of shoes...I knew what was going on...I just went along :)

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited August 2014

    ivan99;

    I will one better you.

    My wife breaks the vacuum when cleaning . I don't doubt her but then she comes home with a new vacuum, shoes and new dress. It should work the same for us.. A 3 yr vehicle breaks you buy a new one . It all evens out in the end..... Lol

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    Thanks guys. I would love to come home with a new car, but long term I want to give it to my daughter Hannah (14 in October) as a sweet 16 present, which the wife will think "is so sweet of me" THEN I come home with a new car. Whats a man to do? Walk? I am sure not driving HER car! Lol.

    Anyway: A/C problem: Refrigerant was down to 11 pounds, which is half of the 20 pounds it is supposed to be. He evacuated the remaining refrigerant and recharged the system, adding dye in case it has a slow leak. I am not sure if A/C naturally burns up it's refrigerant or not, but I read that burning 1 to 2 pounds a year is common.

    I am certain though that it is a slow leak. When I drove home I was frozen after 5 mins! It was even very cold while sitting in traffic, whereas before it barely stayed cool unless I was on the highway. So, slow in fact that I didn't notice it until a few weeks ago, and even then blamed it on the car sitting in the sun and just taking time to cool down.

    I am happy with what Fairfax Kia did, and it was so nice outside that I ended up talkin' cars with the staff in the outside waiting area. If someone had brought a grill and some beer it would have been a cookout. :)

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    @ivan_99 said:
    I'm sure she's not stupid...but she'd go along with it and "reserve" her card to play at a later date...like when my former wife would always forget to bring her shoes when we went on a vacation. Darn, I forgot them...I'll need to buy a new pair of shoes...I knew what was going on...I just went along :)

    With my wife she waits until I am the most comfortable before she strikes. At a party before Diane and I were engaged, my drunken best friend kissed my wife with just a tad too much TONGUE....

    So, instead of being smart and playing that card later, I cashed in and made out with his girlfriend right there on the spot.

    She has never let me forget it. Ever. Now every time there is a pretty girl at a party or get together she hits me with "Do you wanna make out with her too?"

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited August 2014
    I just recharged the a/c on my Tundra last year. It is a 2003. It still had about half so that system didn't leak much over 11 years. I did it myself with a kit and it was very simple. Took about 15 minutes. Our 2007 Mazda still blows cold. I would guess a leak versus normal slippage.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    So do any of you see the resemblance between the new Subaru Legacy and the new Sonata? Pay special attention to the grill and the taillight where it tapers into the rear quarter panel. (side view).

    Thanks for all the advice on my A/C problem. Everyone was cool and supportive. I agree that it is a leak, and the mechanic suspects one too, so they put dye in the system so that if it is leaking they can find it quickly and fix it permanently.

    As far as the visit was concerned, they took my car in promptly on time, and had it fixed and ready to go in an hour and a half. That included 30 mins of running the A/C and looking for leaks, then checked the Freon level again and founds none missing. I sat in the outside waiting area with customers and Kia employees that were out for a smoke, and we talked cars, and enjoyed the perfect 80 degree weather with NO humidity,.

    This mechanic was about my age, and he was really knowledgeable and genuinely friendly. Nice guy.

    Overall I was very pleased.

  • @m6user said:
    I just recharged the a/c on my Tundra last year. It is a 2003. It still had about half so that system didn't leak much over 11 years. I did it myself with a kit and it was very simple. Took about 15 minutes. Our 2007 Mazda still blows cold. I would guess a leak versus normal slippage.

    I have seen the kit advertised on TV. It's like $79 I have a question though. Did you have to evacuate the system before pumping in the new refrigerant?

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949

    @cski said:
    So do any of you see the resemblance between the new Subaru Legacy and the new Sonata? Pay special attention to the grill and the taillight where it tapers into the rear quarter panel. (side view).

    Yes, there's a similarity in the grille, but that shape of grill is becoming pretty common (e.g. Ford Taurus). But Hyundai started using that shape of grille on new vehicles some time ago, with the 2013+ Santa Fe.

    As for tail lamps, I don't see a big similarity other than both cars use teardrop-style lamps. But Hyundai used somewhat similar lamps on the 2011-14 Sonata. And this general style of tail lamp is very common these days, e.g. Fusion, Forte, Camry...

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    @‌ cski
    The kit was about $49 @ Wal-Mart. No evac. Just hook up, turn on, watch gauge and shut off at right pressure. Ice cold ever since. Prob have about half a bottle of the stuff left to top if it leaks a little over time. I watched a couple of you-tube vids to make sure it was as easy as it looked. It was.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    . > @backy said:

    As for tail lamps, I don't see a big similarity other than both cars use teardrop-style lamps. But Hyundai used somewhat similar lamps on the 2011-14 Sonata. And this general style of tail lamp is very common these days, e.g. Fusion, Forte, Camry...

    Exactly. The tail-lamplights are common these days, but it is because of the Sonata's success that it is copied by many manufacturers. Keep in mind the cars coming out today were penned 4 years ago. It takes that long to engineer an all new model, get it built, and delivered to the customer. The 2011 Sonata was the first mid size to be stylish beyond it's price point. It was a finalist for Motor-Trend COY, a C/D top 10 pick, was the International COY, the 2011 Consumer Guide Best Buy and the Canadian COY. Unbelievably, it was a 2011 top safety pick too, and was advertised as having 24/35 MPG. There are ten more lesser known awards on the Sonata wiki page.

    The point is that the new Legacy looks a heck of a lot like the 2015 Sonata to me. In profile, from the back, and the front. I don't think it was by mistake.

    I remember a time when I made fun of Sonata's. So-not-a-car is one of the terms my wife and I used on Hyundai's initial effort with the nameplate. Now there is one in my driveway. Guess who's laughing now?

  • mtnman1mtnman1 Member Posts: 431
    edited August 2014

    @cski said:
    . > backy said:
    I remember a time when I made fun of Sonata's. So-not-a-car is one of the terms my wife and I used on Hyundai's initial effort with the nameplate. Now there is one in my driveway. Guess who's laughing now?

    I noticed that as well the second I saw the new Subaru, but I think the Sonata is better looking. I thought last year's Subaru was much better looking than this year. In fact I was disappointed they changed the Legacy. I was going to be considering one in 2015 or 2016 when I replace my Fusion. Now it looks like I will definitely be interested in the Sonata. It seems to me that when Ford came out with the Taurus back many years ago many brands copied that style as well.

    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    Man, I don't know which one is a better car, although AWD is a bonus... but not with only 175 hp. Yes it's class competitive but the AWD it adds weight you have to drag around when your not using it.

    Anyway, I still think the Mazda 6 and the Accord would be my two choices at this point. It's a shame they were not available when I was buying. I also have to admit a $399/month on a 335i sounds good too, (lease) except a BMW is actually a car I would rather keep. Decisions decisions!

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    For 2015, the Honda Accord now is rated 31 mpg overall by the EPA. That's up one mpg from last year (new transmission software?). Anyway, for overall epa mpg here's how it stacks up right now in midsize for the standard entry-level model with auto trans:

    31 mpg

    Accord, Altima

    30 mpg

    Mazda6

    29

    Sonata, Malibu

    28

    Camry, Passat, 200

    27

    Optima

    26

    Fusion

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    Those differences might seem bigger than they are. For instance, if you drive 15k miles a year, the EPA estimates the gas costs for an Accord at $1700, while a Fusion comes in at $2000. A $300 dollar difference isn't really all that much, but over a decade it comes to 3 grand, which begins to look like a lot of meals out....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062

    The fusion 1.5L turbo is 28 not 26. 26 is the 2.0L turbo.

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256

    The 2.5 is the base engine in the Fusion. Not sure what the take rate is on them. Pretty much every Fusion I see has an Ecoboost or Hybrid badge.

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    Benjaminh:

    I have to admit that a Hybrid is the clear choice here in congested land. I would have saved a ton of dough in fuel. As all of you know my 12 Optima averages only 20mpg in this environment. Out on the super-slab I have observed 30.6 mpg on my way from DC to Myrtle Beach, so it is capable of it's EPA figures, just not here where there are 5 stoplights between my house and the grocery store.

    In more progressive, liberal areas like Los Angeles many people have gone one step further; ditching internal combustion. altogether and switched to E/V's. I read there are 49 electric vehicle chargers in Century City CA. That is only 176 acres.

    To find out how many EV chargers are available in your area just go to www.chargepoint.com and enter your location. In my county there are 17 chargers, but 7 of them are on car dealership back lots. The closest, free EV charger is 6 miles away from my house. There are 5 gas stations within one mile. The Tesla model S is the "halo car" of EV range, with a 200 mile capability if you are very, very careful with the right foot. The entrance on the Tesla is steep though, at $100,000. You can drive Tesla technology for less however. All you need is $42k to step into a Mercedes B class crossover, powered by Tesla drivetrain.

    I can't wait to see what technology pans out in the next 20 to 30 years. With cars like the BMW i8 out on they frontier of what is possible, it looks like a progression of hybrid technology that will continue to shrink down the on board internal combustion engine as a range life-line until better battery technology allows it is no longer needed.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    My 2008 Accord is rated by the epa at 25 overall, but since I mostly do city driving with it I probably get closer to 23 or so.

    If, for my next car, I got an Accord Hybrid (epa city 50) I'd save as much as $1000 a year on gas. Won't pay for the car, but that adds up....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676

    My 2013 regular Accord gets 28 around town, 37-40 on highway depending on how long the trip is. I always use the Eco button. Huge difference from the Maxima it replaced. If we move to Calif. I would definitely consider the Leaf as a second car.

    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    Yeah, our 2013 Accord gets c. 20% higher mpg than the 2008. On recent hwy trips to move our son to college (sigh) we got c. 36-38 mpg with the AC on. That compares to about 30 on a similar trip with the 2008. The next all-new Accord is due in the Fall of 2017 for the 2018 model years. Wonder how much that will go up. Can they get another 20%? Probably not. I've heard that like Ford Honda plans to go almost all turbo, which seems like a mistake. The added cost and complexity don't seem worth it for the small real world gains in mpg.

    Consumer Reports a while back had a surprisingly snarky column where they called Ford's engines "Eco-Boast" because the real world mpg didn't live up to the advertised figures....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949

    @benjaminh said:
    For 2015, the Honda Accord now is rated 31 mpg overall by the EPA. That's up one mpg from last year (new transmission software?). Anyway, for overall epa mpg here's how it stacks up right now in midsize for the standard entry-level model with auto trans: ...

    I know you said "standard entry-level model", but if you look at gas-powered (non-hybrid) models, another worthy contender in the FE race is the Sonata Eco, rated at 32 mpg overall with the 1.6T and 7-speed tranny. I think its list price is pretty close to that of the base Accord (for example). Of course, most mid-sized cars don't offer a smaller-displacement turbo option--the Fusion does, and I believe VW is planning to offer a smaller-than-1.8T option on the Passat but not sure about that. And of course looking at all non-hybrid models, the Passat offers the TDI with excellent FE.

  • rysterryster Member Posts: 571

    @cski said:
    Benjaminh:

    I have to admit that a Hybrid is the clear choice here in congested land. I would have saved a ton of dough in fuel. As all of you know my 12 Optima averages only 20mpg in this environment. Out on the super-slab I have observed 30.6 mpg on my way from DC to Myrtle Beach, so it is capable of it's EPA figures, just not here where there are 5 stoplights between my house and the grocery store.

    In more progressive, liberal areas like Los Angeles many people have gone one step further; ditching internal combustion. altogether and switched to E/V's. I read there are 49 electric vehicle chargers in Century City CA. That is only 176 acres.

    To find out how many EV chargers are available in your area just go to www.chargepoint.com and enter your location. In my county there are 17 chargers, but 7 of them are on car dealership back lots. The closest, free EV charger is 6 miles away from my house. There are 5 gas stations within one mile. The Tesla model S is the "halo car" of EV range, with a 200 mile capability if you are very, very careful with the right foot. The entrance on the Tesla is steep though, at $100,000. You can drive Tesla technology for less however. All you need is $42k to step into a Mercedes B class crossover, powered by Tesla drivetrain.

    I can't wait to see what technology pans out in the next 20 to 30 years. With cars like the BMW i8 out on they frontier of what is possible, it looks like a progression of hybrid technology that will continue to shrink down the on board internal combustion engine as a range life-line until better battery technology allows it is no longer needed.

    The 200 mile range Tesla S 60 starts at $69,900. The mid-level "85" that provides 265 miles of range starts at $79,900. The P85, which is the performance model, starts at $93,400. There is $7,500 tax credit which is not included in the prices. That means if you want a Tesla S, and only need 200 miles of range and can settle for a 0-60 of 5.9s, you could get into one somewhere around $63,000. There is a 3 month wait, but people who want one will wait. More and more of them are showing up on the roads around here.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    For 2015 lowest-priced midsize sedan in America is, amazingly enough, not a Hyundai or Kia, but the Mazda 6, which starts at just $21,190 for the 6-speed manual transmission model. And to most people (me included) the 6 is probably the best-looking midsize car made right now. Comes with Mazda's award-winning Skyactiv tech with an overall epa rating of 29, which beats the manual Accord by 2, since the manual Accord gets 27. The base Mazda6 also has all the standard stuff (cruise, AC, etc.) plus standard 17" alloy wheels. And the 6 gets a Top Safety Pick + from the IIHS:

    http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/mazda/6/2014

    I've owned or had extensive experience with three different Mazdas over almost 30 years, and they were all excellent cars in terms of reliability, quality, performance, and in terms of their fun-to-drive factor. Excellent manual transmissions on all Mazdas. Very smooth. In a very competitive segment, this is one of many excellent cars to choose from. And even though the all-new 6 has been a hit, they still don't sell nearly as many as the other midsize cars, and so you arguably feel a little more special because you're driving something that you won't see at every stoplight.

    So: the Mazda6 has the lowest msrp, but has the highest mpg of any midsize manual, and arguably the best styling. Finally, in most professional test that I've seen, the Mazda6 is also said to have the best handling and the highest "fun-to-drive" factor.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2014

    @benjaminh said:
    For 2015 lowest-priced midsize sedan in America is, amazingly enough, not a Hyundai or Kia, but the Mazda 6, which starts at just $21,190 for the 6-speed manual transmission model.

    Wrong. The 2015 Sonata SE starts at $21,150 with a 6-speed automatic. Including the unavoidable destination charge, the Mazda6 Sport MT is $21,985 with no options, and the Sonata SE is $21,960. With an AT, the Mazda6 Sport starts at $23,690 including destination. FWIW, the Sonata Eco with 7AT and the equivalent of the SE's PEP ($1,200 on the SE) and 32 mpg EPA overall is only $24,085, or only $395 more than the base Mazda6 with an AT and much less equipment than the Eco.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    Thanks for the correction!++

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    @backy said:
    Wrong. The 2015 Sonata SE starts at $21,150 with a 6-speed automatic. Including the unavoidable destination charge, the Mazda6 Sport MT is $21,985 with no options, and the Sonata SE is $21,960. With an AT, the Mazda6 Sport starts at $23,690 including destination. FWIW, the Sonata Eco with 7AT and the equivalent of the SE's PEP ($1,200 on the SE) and 32 mpg EPA overall is only $24,085, or only $395 more than the base Mazda6 with an AT and much less equipment than the Eco.

    I am not even going to try to talk numbers with you... ever. LOL.
    I would have a difficult time choosing between the Accord and the 6. Very difficult. I have seen the Accord everywhere, and in huge numbers. It looks like a 15 to 1 ratio so you are right there. I think that Mazda is very rigid on it's prices, and that is part of the reason there aren't as many. Mazda is trying to elevate the brand as offering a higher quality product. I would have a very hard time paying sticker for anything so I am not sure which car I would come home with.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    The 2015 Sonata is a pretty impressive package for the price. Even the base model has some stuff not found on any of the other base models as far as I know, like heated mirrors, LED daytime running lights, and XM radio. Plus it has the longest warranty (along with KIA) of any midsize car. Another strong choice.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    backy: You seem to have the facts at your fingertips better than I do. Any chance you'd be willing to give us the mrsps of some of the other midsize cars for 2015? If not, that's fine.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    The other best-looking midsize car, in addition to the Mazda6, is the Ford Fusion. Although I'd really say it's a 3-way tie, because the current Optima has aged very well, and even after 4 years looks great imho. I have to admit my Accord is second place in looks to all of those cars.

    At the risk of being wrong, I'm going to say (looking at Ford's page that's right in front of me) that the base Fusion starts at $22,400. That's with the 2.5 engine. Is that engine quieter now? Last time I drove a Ford 2.5, which was about c. 2010 in a rental Fusion of the last generation, it was rather noisy.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676

    For me the Accord is in first place in looks-- the driver's looks. It has the best visibility by far.

    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    @suydam said:
    For me the Accord is in first place in looks-- the driver's looks. It has the best visibility by far.

    Yes, I agree with that! And although the Accord's looks are more restrained than the Mazda6, Fusion, or Optima, in a form-follows-function way I think the current Accord is a very nice looking design that will age well.

    I saw a c. 20-year old Accord on the road today, and it still looked good to my eyes, which is not something I can say about most other midsize cars from the 1990s. Honda doesn't always succeed, but I think they aim for elegant designs that will stand the test of time.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    @benjaminh said: saw a c. 20-year old Accord on the road today, and it still looked good to my eyes, which is not something I can say about most other midsize cars from the 1990s. Honda doesn't always succeed, but I think they aim for elegant designs that will stand the test of time.

    I agree. There is a 1993 in my neighborhood with the nice gold color and the silver-platter wheels that still looks fresh and modern to my eyes as well. I think the current generation looks like a super-sized version. I think the best way to describe both is tasteful and enduring.

    Lastly, I would really like better visibility as well. I am tired of wrenching my neck and worrying that I might have missed someone behind me. Since all vehicles under 10,000 pounds are required to have them by 2018 in the US it is probably a safe bet that we all will have them eventually. It is expected that 70% will have them well before that date however due to customer expectations.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    Poor rear visibility is the current plague of midsize cars designs imho.

    The best visibility, as all the professional reviewers who mention it seem to say, is the Accord by far.

    Good-enough second place visibility is found in the Mazda6, Camry, and maybe another one I'm forgetting.

    Most of the rest have poor rear visibility, with the worst perhaps being cski's awesome-looking but imho not entirely thought-out Optima.

    Side cameras, like I have on my Accord, do help, but nothing beats being able to look all around you. Hope Honda bucks the trend and keeps it up, but it seems like they are swimming against a powerful styling tide. The plus side of that, maybe, is that it almost makes the Accord stand out at this point? Not sure....

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676

    Another midsizer with good visibility is the Nissan Altima. Also a nice looking car on the outside too.

    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    @suydam said:
    Another midsizer with good visibility is the Nissan Altima. Also a nice looking car on the outside too.

    Are you sure? Have you been in one of the new ones? It looks to me like the small rear window behind the driver, like the small rear window on the Passat, Fusion, and others, is not really very functional from the driver's point of view.

    I had that kind of window on my 2000 Ford Focus, and it seemed like a cruel trick. From the outside it seemed like you'd be able to see out of it. And you can—from the back seat. But from the driver's POV you might as well put masking tape over the small rear window's glass for all the good it's going to do you. Those kinds of rear quarter windows are just not really that functional....

    The Hofmeister kink, as you know, is almost part of my religion when it comes to car design.

    Best visibility in any sedan by far? Beating even the Accord?

    BMW's 3-series. BMW, of course, was where Wilhelm Hofmeister got his kinks out originally back in c. 1960.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676

    We drove a '13 when we were shopping. It had great visibility. Most reviews mention it too. We chose the Accord for other reasons.

    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2014

    @benjaminh said:
    backy: You seem to have the facts at your fingertips better than I do. Any chance you'd be willing to give us the mrsps of some of the other midsize cars for 2015? If not, that's fine.

    All I did is google "2015 car_model_here msrp" and the base msrp for that car came up in the first few hits. On the Sonata and Mazda6, I also went to their respective manufacturer web sites to "build it now" to make sure I had the correct pricing including destination.

    One thing I noticed... if you want a red Mazda6, it'll cost you an extra $300. :p Which is too bad as that's my favorite color. But lots of automakers charge extra for certain paint colors.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    That Mazda6 red is hot. On the Mazda web site it says: "No Shade of Red was good enough. So we engineered a new one with an elaborate three-step painting process. The result is a red so deep yet so vibrant, it could only be called Soul Red."

    Probably worth $300.

    But charging extra for colors, which is something BMW does, seems a little tricky? But it probably does reflect some real extra costs.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    The 2015 Passat 5-speed manual is also about $22k flat with destination, making it along with the Sonata and Mazda6 one of the lowest priced midsize cars in America.

    This car is too often overlooked imho, esp. now that it has a 1.8 liter turbo as standard. I fear to get my facts wrong again, but I think this is the only standard turbo engine in the midsize segment. Other nice features include standard integrated side mirror turn signal lights, biggest rear legroom in the class, rear passenger ventilation in center console, cool-looking analog clock, 60/40 folding rear seat.

    The Passat also has one of the smaller turning circles in the class, at 36.4 feet. At 15.9 feet it may also have the largest trunk in the class.

    Finally, it's built at VW's state of the art factory in TN.

    It's a heck of a lot of car for the money. They also throw in free maintenance for the first two years.

    The styling is clean and functional. I actually like it quite a lot.

    Handling is also supposed to be close to best-in-class.

    Real mystery as to why this one isn't selling like hotcakes.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2014

    Yes, you found the winner! The 2015 Passat S with a stick is $20 less (including destination) than the 2015 Sonata SE with automatic.

    The Passat may be the only mid-sized family car with a standard turbo. But it also may have the least power of any standard engine in the class, 170 hp.

    I agree the Passat is a lot of car for the money. But so are cars like the Sonata, Optima, Accord, and Mazda6. I think there may be 2 reasons the Passat isn't selling like hotcakes: the perception that VW still has a quality problem, and the hum-drum styling of the current Passat. Maybe when the next Passat arrives, with swoopier styling, it will sell better.

    Case in point: you like the Passat a lot, but what did you buy? ;)

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    So it's the Passat manual that's the lowest-priced midsize car in America? At most dealers, however, they probably don't even stock the base manual model. My local dealers don't seem to anyway.

    But one local VW dealer has been offering 3-4k off of the last of the 2014 Passats some with an msrp of c. 24k.

    Having been burned by a VW long ago, and having read quite a few more concerning stories online even in the last 10 years, I'm afraid I'm not likely to ever buy a VW. Plus, as you know, I'm a big Honda fan.

    Your thoughts as to why sales haven't taken off seem on target. This generation of Passat is actually selling much better than the last generation, but given that they have a capacity in TN make 70,000 year more that the market just doesn't seem to want to buy, it has been a letdown for VW.

    The biggest weakness of the car a year or so ago was the loud, weak, and gas guzzling standard 5 cylinder engine. And so now that they've gone to the 1.8 turbo that accelerates to 60 a full second faster, and gets c. 3 more mpg, sales might improve.

    VW does have another class-exclusive, as far as I know, but it's not something that you can see very well from the surface. The Passat is put together with what's called "laser seam welding," which is supposed to be stronger and higher quality than the spot welding used by everyone else. Here's a little video about it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6bn4HhI4eo

    So there are a lot of class-exclusive features with the Passat. Here's a strong road test review by "Drivin' Ivan":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBQWmlRvfzQ

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949

    @benjaminh said:
    So it's the Passat manual that's the lowest-priced midsize car in America? At most dealers, however, they probably don't even stock the base manual model. My local dealers don't seem to anyway.

    But one local VW dealer has been offering 3-4k off of the last of the 2014 Passats some with an msrp of c. 24k.

    Well, that's the thing, isn't it? I don't know about Mazda6 Sport sticks, but it's not hard to find a base Sonata on dealer lots (although a lot of them seem to have the PEP). At least Mazda (and VW and Honda) _offer _their mid-sized sedans with a stick.

    $3-4k off of a 2014 isn't anything special. I routinely see $5k+ off 2014s like the Sonata, Fusion, Optima, and Camry. Recently I saw those cars as low as $16.5k (Fusion S) to $17k (Optima LX, Sonata GLS). I never see discounts off list for Hondas because my area dealers never advertise price, just lease rates. :@ But from reports here, you can get a big discount on 2014 Accords too.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    16.5 for a Fusion!!? What a steal. Amazing. Or 17k for an Optima. Prices aren't as low here in Louisville, but I did see a few months ago things like 18.9 for a Sonata, Camry, or Altima.

    Honda actively discourages dealers from advertising on price. In fact, I think they have an almost iron-clad rule against it. Not sure how they make that stick, but, they seem to be able to. Honda's idea is that they are trying to sell on quality, engineering excellence, and "value." Seems to sort-of work, but given that others are taking 5k or more off of the list price they've lost a little bit of market share in 2014. That loss of market share has mainly been the collapse of their Acura car line up. They had to delay the new TLX several months to fix quality issues, but in the meantime dealers pretty much ran out of the outdated TL and TSX cars that it's replacing, and so Acura dealers until the last week or so haven't really had many cars to sell.

    Anyway, in terms of midsize you can get $3k off an Accord, plus 0.9% financing for five years. But when others are offering $5k off plus 0%, it's sometimes tough to make a sale. As a Honda fan, I do think an Accord is a better car than some competitors and worth paying more for, but for some people a Camry is just as good, and so if that's cheaper...

    Anyway, the new TLX, plus the new small Honda SUV called, I think, the HRV, should boost Honda's market share a little for calendar year 2015.

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,118

    @benjaminh said:

    >

    Honda actively discourages dealers from advertising on price. In fact, I think they have an almost iron-clad rule against it. Not sure how they make that stick, but, they seem to be able to. Honda's idea is that they are trying to sell on quality, engineering excellence, and "value." Seems to sort-of work, but given that others are taking 5k or more off of the list price they've lost a little bit of market share in 2014.

    Anyway, in terms of midsize you can get $3k off an Accord, plus 0.9% financing for five years. But when others are offering $5k off plus 0%, it's sometimes tough to make a sale. As a Honda fan, I do think an Accord is a better car than some competitors and worth paying more for, but for some people a Camry is just as good, and so if that's cheaper...

    Over in the "Accord Prices Paid" discussion, folks are routinely getting $1000-2000 below invoice for their Accords.

    I haven't bought an Accord in 20 years; when I did, it was based on a specific advertised price in the LA Times - I want to say something like $13,xxx against an MSRP of $16,500 or so. 1993 LX Automatic ("One only at this price!").

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!


    MODERATOR

    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256

    Here is the review of the Fusion. One mistake I noticed was he said it had a 2.5 liter ecoboost engine. My wife's Escape has the quad fuel display, which I wish my Fusion had.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=aF3dHTzXKp0

    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805

    @benjaminh said:
    The 2015 Passat 5-speed manual is also about $22k flat with destination, making it along with the Sonata and Mazda6 one of the lowest priced midsize cars in America.
    It's a heck of a lot of car for the money. They also throw in free maintenance for the first two years.

    Except that the "free maintenance" is about 2 oil changes and will be going to 12 months/12,000 miles which is one oil change worth about $65.

    When they went to the "free maintenance" they also dropped the warranty from 4/50 to 3/36.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    @backy said:
    $3-4k off of a 2014 isn't anything special. I routinely see $5k+ off 2014s like the Sonata, Fusion, Optima, and Camry. Recently I saw those cars as low as $16.5k (Fusion S) to $17k (Optima LX, Sonata GLS). I never see discounts off list for Hondas because my area dealers never advertise price, just lease rates. :@ But from reports here, you can get a big discount on 2014 Accords too.

    Oh yeah. Kia will negotiate big-time. There was a 2014 LX on one of those raised platforms with $18,500 on the window among balloons and other such frippery. They also quoted me $26k on a 2014 SX, and that was before I really pressed and did some research.

    Also Backy, most of those prices you are seeing are after ALL POSSIBLE DISCOUNTS. Not many qualify for all of them.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014

    @benjaminh said:
    That Mazda6 red is hot. On the Mazda web site it says: "No Shade of Red was good enough. So we engineered a new one with an elaborate three-step painting process. The result is a red so deep yet so vibrant, it could only be called Soul Red."

    That's because "Spicy Red" was already taken by my car. ;)

    On the Passat after viewing the review: For "just under $32,000" I can get lots of cars with lots more power. There has to be a way to get the 2.0T for similar money. It is almost a sin to not buy the 2.0T or the TDI. 170 hp in a large car is just barely adequate. My car has 30 more HP, and similar MPG numbers when on the highway and in less congested suburbs. Lastly, my warranty is vastly longer and parts/repairs promise to be a lot cheaper after the warranty period. I wont have to worry about that however because I will be done with the car at 100k anyway.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2014

    Do most midsize cars have active sites for fans of the car? I honestly don't know. For Accord fans there's driveaccord.net and vtec.net, and probably some others I don't know about. Is there a fan site for the Sonata, for instance, as well as for the Fusion?

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
Sign In or Register to comment.