Midsize Sedans 2.0

Michaell · August 2014

@benjaminh said:
Do most midsize cars have active sites for fans of the car? I honestly don't know. For Accord fans there's driveaccord.net and vtec.net, and probably some others I don't know about. Is there a fan site for the Sonata, for instance, as well as for the Fusion?

Maybe not the Sonata specifically, but there are a number of Hyundai sites (and forums) that I found after getting my E-GT.

benjaminh · August 2014

The lowest-priced Accord for 2015 is the LX 6-speed manual, which has an msrp of $22,105 before destination. Destination adds 800 or so, but since all of these cars, as we've said, can be had for 3k-4k off msrp, it seems ok to me to start with the predestination price. If you actually do get at least 3k-4k off, but then add taxes and fees, you might even end back up at roughly the msrp without dest price when all is said and done.

Anyway, compared that way, a new Passat 5-speed manual lists for $21,120. On the surface of it, you might wonder how Honda can charge 1k more for the comparable car. Are they charging for the Honda badge? Maybe a little. And also for Honda reliability, which most would agree is still better than VW's reliability at this point. But there are a few other things as well.

First, of course, Honda gives you a 6-speed manual rather than VW's somewhat old-fashioned at this point 5-speed. Just a few years ago 6-speed manuals were only available on fancy cars like Acuras and BMWs. Anyway, that's probably worth a few hundred bucks right there, and probably costs Honda at least that much compared to VW's 5-speed. Just making up something, let's say that's worth $300.

Second, the Accord has a very useful standard back-up camera. Honda pioneered making this standard back in the Fall of 2012. They even do it for the civic. But everyone else seems to charge extra for this, or make you go to a higher trim level, including VW. This is worth at least several hundred dollars imho—maybe $500.

Third, even the Accord LX has some nice alloy wheels, while I think the bottom-of-the line Passat has plastic wheel covers. To me, avoiding that cheap look is worth at least $100 a wheel for another $400.

The LX Accord also throws in a few other things standard the base Passat doesn't have, like floor mats ($100?), seat back pockets ($100), illuminated vanity mirrors ($200), trunk light ($50?), dual zone climate control (Passat has single zone climate control--$300?), and hill start assist for the clutch ($200).

Add all that up, and it doesn't seem like Honda is charging for the badge.

But the Passat does have a few things the Accord doesn't have, like a split folding rear seat ($300?), side mirror turn-signal indicators ($200), and two more speakers for the standard stereo ($200), and....that's all I can find at the moment.

Bottom line is that the 1k price difference does seem more or less fair.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

@benjaminh said:
Do most midsize cars have active sites for fans of the car? I honestly don't know. For Accord fans there's driveaccord.net and vtec.net, and probably some others I don't know about. Is there a fan site for the Sonata, for instance, as well as for the Fusion?

Hey Ben, good question. All three have them and then some:

optima forums .

sonata forums

ford fusion club

altima forums

passat world

mazda 6 forum

camry forums

I don't want to get in trouble with the moderator so you guys will have to use you head to discover how to find the exact addresses.

I don't know about the others, but the Optima site has been very helpful when it comes to resolving very specific questions. For example; I was very concerned about the way my engine sounded at startup right after I bought mine. It sounded like a bucket of rocks, but then went away after a minute or so. I had to know if it was normal or not. My fears were laid to rest after learning my first lesson on how direct injection works, and that the racket was normal.

benjaminh · August 2014

Honda must have done something with its DI engine, because our 2013 Accord with the direct injected engine doesn't sound like you're describing. It's maybe slightly louder than the non-DI engine in my 08 Accord, but only very slightly.

But yes, these car specific sites are often very useful. For instance, very early 2013 Accords needed a software update for the CVT, and at driveaccord.net they had the technical service bulletin #s and so on for that.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

Are both the new Acura TSX and TLX based on the Accord?

[Deleted User] · August 2014

@benjaminh said:
Honda must have done something with its DI engine, because our 2013 Accord with the direct injected engine doesn't sound like you're describing. It's maybe slightly louder than the non-DI engine in my 08 Accord, but only very slightly.

But yes, these car specific sites are often very useful. For instance, very early 2013 Accords needed a software update for the CVT, and at driveaccord.net they had the technical service bulletin #s and so on for that.

My car makes a clack, clack, clack sound as the high pressure injection system starts to work. Even after I read that it was normal I drove another EX to make sure, and it made the exact same noise. There are hundreds of entries about it on the Optima Forums site, meaning that almost everyone there has asked about it. Just a normal GDI engine at work.
The Accord probably has better insulation....but try listening to the engine with the hood up while another person starts it....I am curious if Honda was able to tune it out somehow.

BTW: I agree with you wholeheartedly on buying the Accord over the frumpy-shoe box looking Passat. I do like the interior on the Passat better on SEL models, but that is about it. It's funny that Honda is now throwing in a lot of accessories, because the opposite used to be true. I remember when the Accord had 4 different inline-4's one on every trim level, all with 10 to 30 HP differences on essentially the same block. The DX and LX usually had an SOHC head for example. So, you had to buy at least the EX or the Si to get maximum fun. Now a days you get almost all the power you need on the LX EX and Sport. We all know the V6 model is very quick...almost as quick as a standard BMW 3 series. A compelling car in every trim level.

benjaminh · August 2014

@cski said:
Are both the new Acura TSX and TLX based on the Accord?

The TSX is being phased out. It was based on the smaller Euro-Accord.

The new TLX is based on the new Accord, but they've spent more than a billion dollars redesigning and upgrading the frame, the engines, the transmissions, the steering, the interior, the standard stuff, etc. And yet the msrp price difference between an Accord EXL and the TLX is less than you might expect.

I'm actually very tempted by the TLX for my next car. Looks like an outstanding value.

When it comes to engines, as you say, Honda used to do what some of the others (like Ford) still do now: give a lower-level engine on the entry model.

When we got our 2008 Accord, for instance, they had one kind of engine for the LX model, and a nicer, quieter, and more powerful (i.e. almost Acura) engine for the EX and above.

I credit KIA and Hyundai for getting rid of that at Honda. KIA and Hyundai gave as standard these advanced DI engines, even on the base model. And so, for 2013, Honda started doing that too.

Btw, I have listened to the Honda DI engine with hood up. It does clatter some, but not a lot. Don't know what Honda did, but it's not as noisy as what you're describing, or what I seem to have heard from other recent DI engines....

Kirstie_H · August 2014

@benjaminh said:
But charging extra for colors, which is something BMW does, seems a little tricky? But it probably does reflect some real extra costs.

May be a bit tricky, but $300 isn't highway robbery. Honestly, if $300 was all that stood in the way of me having my preferred color, I'd gladly pay it. Over the period of intended ownership, it's not that much, and if I didn't pop for it, I know I'd look at the vehicle every day and think that I liked it, but wished I'd splurged on the color I really wanted.

benjaminh · August 2014

2015 Honda Accord EXL msrp: $28,420

2015 Acura TLX base msrp: $30,995

That's a difference in price of about $2600.

If you look at what's standard on the TLX, you get a heck of a lot for that $2600.

Real world pricing, however, means that you're likely to be able to get almost 3k off of a new 2015 Accord right off the bat, while the all-new TLX seems to be going for closer to list for the moment. But in a few months, when Acura ramps up production of the TLX in Ohio....?

benjaminh · August 2014

@Kirstie_H said:
May be a bit tricky, but $300 isn't highway robbery. Honestly, if $300 was all that stood in the way of me having my preferred color, I'd gladly pay it. Over the period of intended ownership, it's not that much, and if I didn't pop for it, I know I'd look at the vehicle every day and think that I liked it, but wished I'd splurged on the color I really wanted.

I agree with you, Kirstie, about the colors. I certainly wouldn't let $300 stand in my way.

But when you look at a new BMW 320i sedan, which is a car I've admired since I was a kid, it starts at $32,750. But when you add things that are standard even on an Accord EXL, or Acura TLX, like the color of your choice ($550), heated seats, back up camera, etc. (all of which are extra on the 320i) you are very soon looking at a car north of $40,000 that has less horsepower than a Honda Accord 4 cylinder....

dudleyr · August 2014

I would not compare a TLX to an Accord. EPA has it at 93 ft3. Less than a Civic or Fit (95,96). The Accord is 103 (little less with the sunroof).

It is about the same size on the outside and weighs more, but they have shrunk the inside considerably.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

Totally agree Ben..

A recent comparo that included the 320i showed a 0 to 60 time of 6.6 seconds for the BMW, which is exactly the same as the Accord Sport manual observed by C/D in it's 30k long term test. When you compare the two cars, the Accord Sport is $8k cheaper, and also does not include heated seats, SAT radio or GPS. This may represent a more apples to apples comparison at the other end of the price scale.

So even the Accord Sport looks like a better value with similar equipment of the base 320i, but curiously the Accord also limits the colors... to grey and black, and they will not spray it any other color. Bummer, because the blue Accord Sport is my favorite looking Accord by far....a shame it comes only with a CVT...even if Honda's is a good one.

explorerx4 · August 2014

My mom's Fiesta has paint that was an extra $300. It's worth every penny. It just stands out from the usual clear coat paints and easily cleans up great. Pic was taken with my phone, so not the best.

suydam · August 2014

Dark red with tan leather looks good. My favorite interior is light or medium grey. I will not have a car with black leather interior. I prefer exteriors that are light but not white -- the medium blue of the Chevy Cruze is one of my favorites and I wish my Accord had been available in that color. Too dark shows every speck. Silver is pretty forgiving and that may be one reason for its popularity too.

benjaminh · August 2014

Because of the slightly swoopier styling, and very padded seats, the TLX is smaller inside than the Accord. On the outside it even cuts 1 inch in length. But it's still a midsize imho. And it starts at $31k for the base model. Haven't seen a test of the base model until now, but here it is. And in this video at the 7 minute mark you can hear with the hood up what a Honda/Acura direct-injected engine sounds like. This is almost exactly what my wife's 2013 Accord sounds like. And so it is a bit clattery, but I wouldn't describe it as unrefined (cski: comparison with your engine?):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5EqHTKpabs

The reviewer is wrong when saying he thinks it's "real wood." Many other reviews have confirmed that it's "Plood." But I think it looks nice.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

Thanks ben. I guess I will discuss my impression of the whole car, since it is mid-size and based on the Accord.

Overview:
I really like the TLX except for the beak grill, and that is just personal preference. I like the interior layout too, with great fit and finish and some nice aluminum touches that I hope are real. My lowly Korean also has real aluminum trim, which could easily be made out of the scrap leftover from the manufacturing process.

DI engine noise: The clacking is exactly the same as mine, but the Acura's is twice as loud and doesn't go away. Weird, since I would think it would be quieter. When the host revs the engine I wanted to strangle him since it didn't take 15 revs for me to get what the exhaust sounded like.

Pet peeve: This car has two very large screens (a 7" and an 8"), yet has no GPS? [non-permissible content removed]
My car has a hood strut that is exactly where the TLX is, and the engine in this car is exactly the same layout as mine, right down to the intake scoop, battery location, engine position etc.. It has similar power output as well, but the ride and refinement is where the Acura will shine, and where mine just doesn't. There is no comparison in this category.

My Kia has lousy steering and rebound control. The front suspension bottoms out frequently and then the bump reverberates through the chassis like an old school bus. I would tell anyone looking for a midsize to take each car you are comparing home for 24 hours so you get a full impression before you buy. I didn't do that, and paid the price for it.

stickguy · August 2014

Well, after watching that review, sounds like I would love it.

ab348 · August 2014

A local guy drove the TLX last week and posted this. First negative review I've seen. Later on he tried the V6 and liked it much, much better.

"Drove both the 4 cylinder and V6 FWD TLXs today, both mid-level Technology package equipped.

Being Hondas, they are of course idiosyncratic which is not necessarily bad.

Extremely competent salesman, a first in my 2 years of looking for a half-decent new car to replace my 08 Legacy GT. Off to a good start, then.

The 4 cylinder had electronic nannies that could not be entirely shut off, apparently. Tooted at me for an old woman who had actually already crossed the road. Why? Big orange light in dash, BRAKE, as you come to a stop. Groan. Noisy 4 cylinder engine sound, and kind of dull response to a bootful of gas, while the transmission dithered. No torque, just noisy revs.

Then, having to cut across two lanes of traffic to re-enter dealership, from a complete stop with wheels cut over - goosed it to get rolling - nothing. A feeling of a dozen squirrels frantically checking and trying to find a gear, any gear, and a full two second wait while the salesman cringed at oncoming traffic bearing down, before something caught and it moved. Then it upshifted three gears at ten to fifteen mph going up the steep slope to the showroom, lugging the engine down so low in rpm it shuddered. Er, no.

Folks, you can have that model. NOT for me. Dangerous. Not a patch on the LGT in engine note or get up and go. The 20 inch tires they had fitted to impress someone or other were also incredibly noisy, like driving a CLA with 18s - what a tin can that thing is, btw!"

[Deleted User] · August 2014

reviewer in ab348's post said:

Then, having to cut across two lanes of traffic to re-enter dealership, from a complete stop with wheels cut over - goosed it to get rolling - nothing. A feeling of a dozen squirrels frantically checking and trying to find a gear, any gear, and a full two second wait while the salesman cringed at oncoming traffic bearing down, before something caught and it moved. Then it upshifted three gears at ten to fifteen mph going up the steep slope to the showroom, lugging the engine down so low in rpm it shuddered. Er, no.

Folks, you can have that model. NOT for me. Dangerous. Not a patch on the LGT in engine note or get up and go. The 20 inch tires they had fitted to impress someone or other were also incredibly noisy, like driving a CLA with 18s - what a tin can that thing is, btw!"

I see the problem....you have to upgrade from the SVT (Squirrel Velocity Trans) to the optional Cheetah Variable Trans. God...everyone knows that!

Seriously though, what does "not a patch on the LGT in engine note or get up and go" mean?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

GEESH--- I hope that "redline sound" at the beginning of the video was merely simulated--revving a car to redline in neutral is risky.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
GEESH--- I hope that "redline sound" at the beginning of the video was merely simulated--revving a car to redline in neutral is risky.

Oh no...it was on purpose. When he revved it the first time while viewing the I/P it wasn't too bad, but then he did it over and over again while the camera was trained in the exhaust. I think we all got the gist after one or two revs. I like the car, but I think in order to get the whole TLX experience you need to buy the V6. So, the V6 would put you at $40k. At that price point there is stiff competition. I like the Audi S3 Quattro with the 295 HP 2.0T and a zero to 60 time at an unbelievable 4.4 seconds. A full half second faster than the S4!

Mr_Shiftright · August 2014

I'd snatch the keys from his hand if he did that to my car. Those pistons and connecting rods have no load on them. All engines that are ungoverned in that way will rev up to self-destruction levels.

suydam · August 2014

No keys. Key fob maybe?

explorerx4 · August 2014

Watching that review of the MercURA TLX, I'm glad I spent my money on my Fusion.
Better looking (duh), cheaper, faster, more room, more tech features, comparable fuel mileage and uses RUG.
TLX engine probably sounds better at high revs, but with a turbo I don't need to work the engine to get speed.
Got oil changed and tires rotated. With $10 rebate about $47. Car was returned to me washed and with the tires dressed.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

@explorerx4 said:
Got oil changed and tires rotated. With $10 rebate about $47. Car was returned to me washed and with the tires dressed.

At Kia we just get a bucket and hose with some dish detergent. Ahem.

benjaminh · August 2014

There are screaming deals out there right now.

I've seen Altimas, Sonatas, and others for 19k for a while, but Honda Accords are available too starting at that price, at least at some places. Wow.

m6user · August 2014

Lots of deals for $5k-$6k off MSRP on Camry, Altima, Malibu and others. Many around 17k in Chicago area. Seen some ads for $8k off brand-new 2013s. Heck they are even advertising $3k off the new 2015 Sonata and that just hit dealers recently. Honda only shows lease prices and since in IL one has to pay tax on the entire price of the car up front leasing isn't that popular for average consumers. Mostly business use or luxury car leases.

benjaminh · August 2014

8k? Wow. But on a 2013. Who has leftover 2013s? What car is that?

Michaell · August 2014

@m6user said:
Lots of deals for $5k-$6k off MSRP on Camry, Altima, Malibu and others. Many around 17k in Chicago area. Seen some ads for $8k off brand-new 2013s. Heck they are even advertising $3k off the new 2015 Sonata and that just hit dealers recently. Honda only shows lease prices and since in IL one has to pay tax on the entire price of the car up front leasing isn't that popular for average consumers. Mostly business use or luxury car leases.

Taxation for leases is changing in IL as of 1/1/15 - will only tax the payment each month, not the entire purchase amount.

m6user · August 2014

@Michaell said:Taxation for leases is changing in IL as of 1/1/15 - will only tax the payment each month, not the entire purchase amount.>

Good to know! Only 5 more months. I may consider leasing in the future since I only put about 9k miles a year on my primary vehicle and I could probably get a decent low mileage lease.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

Survey: If you needed a new mid size and were buying today, Which model would you choose, and why?

akirby · August 2014

Fusion. I like Fords to begin with but I love the styling on this one and all the tech features. Drove mine home from the airport late last night after a week away and it was such a pleasure.

suydam · August 2014

Honda Accord. That's what I bought last year and I wouldn't change it.

backy · August 2014

I really don't know, as I haven't driven most of the new designs. I do know that if this car were for me (not my wife), it would most likely come down to the Mazda6 Sport 6MT, Accord LX 6MT, and Sonata Eco, but I'd also take a good look at the new Legacy (living as I do in Minnesnowta), and at least drive the 200, Fusion, and Passat 1.8T. The Altima, Camry, and Malibu don't float my boat, and the Optima, while a good car, is now a generation behind the Sonata. I'd also consider the Jetta 1.8T as it has mid-sized interior and trunk room in a smaller package, and for 2015 the interior is spiffied-up.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

Mazda 6 GT. It is so curvaceous and sculpted like a work of art. I love the looks, and I love the way it drives. I do not love the center stack. They need to do something there, but it is in no way a deal killer. It was a very good test drive when I took one out about a month ago, and I didn't miss the extra 15 HP my car (allegedly) has.

m6user · August 2014

Just read interesting article on autoblog.com about Mazda changes. It's possible the Mazda 6 interior is going to get a redo for 2015. It wouldn't surprise me because that dash/tech is about the only thing that really got panned by reviewers on the 6. They seemed to like the Mazda 3 dash/tech so my guess would be the Mazda 6 is going to get the same look as the uplevel 3.

Here's a link to the article:
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/08/28/mazda-miata-coupe-rumor-mazda6-updates/

Michaell · August 2014

Aother vote for the Mazda 6. Beautiful on the outside, functional on the inside and lots of options normally seen on more expensive cars.

explorerx4 · August 2014

I'd get another Fusion. A loaded SE/SE Hybrid would work. Been kind of looking around.
Taking a trip to the midwest (flat) next weekend, so I'll see if I can improve on the 28-29 mpg I've been getting.

ab348 · August 2014

@Michaell said:
Aother vote for the Mazda 6. Beautiful on the outside, functional on the inside and lots of options normally seen on more expensive cars.

So why are they not selling? There must be a reason, but I never hear why. Do they suffer from the NVH issues that plague the 3?

Michaell · August 2014

@ab348 said:
So why are they not selling? There must be a reason, but I never hear why. Do they suffer from the NVH issues that plague the 3?

Can't answer that - I've not driven one.

m6user · August 2014

They sell about the same number as Subaru sells of the Legend. Neither are their respective brands best sellers. Why doesn't Subaru sell more?? Because they are a small manufacturer with maybe 1/5(or even less) the number of dealerships as the big boys. Same as Mazda. People forget that.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

@ab348 said:
So why are they not selling? There must be a reason, but I never hear why. Do they suffer from the NVH issues that plague the 3?

I have not heard that NVH was at "plague" levels on the 3. I read Motortrend and C/D, and not one article has mentioned NVH problems. Can you point out where you heard or read that?

I drove a black GT when my car was in for service. I walked across the street to the Mazda store, and in less than 10 mins I was on 66 doing 70. It has a really nice growl to the engine, and it sounds refined all the way up to redline. It was easy to place the wheels, the steering was quick and the grip confidence inspiring. Back in the Kia 30 mins later, and it is just numb. Not bad per say, just nothing at all special in the dynamics department.

I think I am going to have a very hard time affording a BMW or Audi that has anything close to the levels of equipment the 6 has. I am not going to fork over good $ for pretentiousness or a badge either.

ab348 · August 2014

@cski said:
I have not heard that NVH was at "plague" levels on the 3. I read Motortrend and C/D, and not one article has mentioned NVH problems. Can you point out where you heard or read that?

Pretty much from anyone who owns one, eithe rface to face or online in forums, etc. Some of the boy-racer types like it and find it sporty, but many find it too rough and noisy for a compact sedan and seem to get tired of having to put up with it day in and day out. If you never read that in a review, then maybe my suspicions about most reviews being puff pieces are correct.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

I will ask my neighbor whenever I catch him. He has a 2.5 liter 3 that he got about 6 months ago, if that. Curious.

suydam · August 2014

I think it has more to do with fewer dealerships. I owned a 6 wagon in 2004. That dealership folded so I didn't even drive one this time around.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

@suydam said:
I think it has more to do with fewer dealerships. I owned a 6 wagon in 2004. That dealership folded so I didn't even drive one this time around.

My wife drive a 6 wagon too. Also a 2004. 240 HP V6, very nice looking car inside and out. A/C broke often and usually when we needed it the most. Other than that, Diane drove the crap out of it and it never left her stranded mechanically, but it did go through wheels and tires a little more often than normal.

stickguy · August 2014

Buying by what I want and nit on price, Mazda 6 or accord.

New Mazda 3 is much improved in terms of nvh

[Deleted User] · August 2014

August sign and drive deals on Optima at local dealer.

All are zero down...

2015 Optima LX 39 mo. lease - $249 mo + tax and tags
2015 Optima EX 39 mo. lease - $299 mo + tax and tags
2015 Optima SX-T 39 mo. lease - $349 mo + tax and tags

All are base models, options extra.

I usually only see LX deals no matter what the car is; and always wonder why more ads don't include teaser rates like this on a car that people can actually live with for 39 months. My car note is $449 on my EX plus $97 for insurance. I am not one to lease cars, but that $349 deal is very attractive on a turbo....even though it is a base turbo.

Also, on a different topic, my tax bill just arrived with an October 15th due date. It is $369. I know we were talking about tax rates a while back. The DOT value is $16,800.

robr2 · August 2014

@ab348 said:
So why are they not selling? There must be a reason, but I never hear why. Do they suffer from the NVH issues that plague the 3?

I think it has to do more with the fact that it's a Mazda. If the 6 were branded as a Honda or Nissan, it would sell better. Mazda is a fringe brand compared to the others and as such, it considered a risky purchase.

suydam · August 2014

I disagree. Mazda has a good reputation. But away from cities there are few dealerships.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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