Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

abacomike · September 2014

@driver100 said:
He did travel for work so put on 40K miles a year. Doing that research brought back some good memories of the 50s and 60s.

Memories of the 50's and 60's? I have trouble remembering the 70's and 80's as well as what I did yesterday!

Mr_Shiftright · September 2014

Having owned both a '57 Chev and '57 Ford in the distant past, I can recall, at least subjectively, that the '57 Chevy was better built, drove better, ran better, held up better, was faster. The Ford was more attractive to my eyes, however, as I thought the '57 Chevy fins just a bit too much. The Ford really felt like a "crate".

abacomike · September 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Having owned both a '57 Chev and '57 Ford in the distant past, I can recall, at least subjectively, that the '57 Chevy was better built, drove better, ran better, held up better, was faster. The Ford was more attractive to my eyes, however, as I thought the '57 Chevy fins just a bit too much. The Ford really felt like a "crate".

My grandfather had a '57 Chevrolet BelAir Sedan until 1962 and my other grandfather had a '57 Ford Sedan until 1965. Way back then, people kept their cars much longer than they do today.

I remember driving both of them when I got my license in 1961 and I would have to agree with you that the Chevy handled much better than the Ford. The Ford seemed to fishtail more and the weight distribution was awful. The Ford seemed a bit more powerful than the Chevy and the Ford was lower to the center of gravity than the Chevy.

In short, the Ford was bulkier and bouncier than the Chevy!

isellhondas · September 2014

I grew up (?) in a " Chevy Town" but I know there were "Ford Towns" too.

1957 Fords were said to have poor workmanship compared to the Chevys and I remember
a 283 equipped Chevy could flat walk away from a 312 Ford.

A 1957 Dodge D500 could make either look like a six cylinder.

robr2 · September 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:
My grandfather had a '57 Chevrolet BelAir Sedan until 1962 and my other grandfather had a '57 Ford Sedan until 1965. Way back then, people kept their cars much longer than they do today.

That only applies to you Mike!!

In reality, people are keeping cars longer and longer. Back in 1970 (first year I could find data for), the average age of cars was 5.6 years. In 2000, it was 9 years. Today, it's 11.4 years.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/line3.htm

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=average age of cars on the road

I look at my three cars and I'm at 8.8 years average.

laurasdada · September 2014

@snakeweasel said:
Well a few days ago I was on a cruise when they held a sale on Invicta watches. Man that was a feeding frenzy but I managed to sneak in and found a watch with a MSRP of $800 priced at $120 (85% off). Nice looking and feeling watch that I came very close to buying but decided against it (I normally carry a pocket watch when I carry a watch).

Check out ShopHQ.com for a treasure trove of Invicta watches (and many other "made for TV" brands...). Oftentimes with 6 payments same as cash. Similar discounts across the board. For some reason, when I come across their watch show on TV (Sunday/Monday nights, sometimes more. I think they sell a lot of watches on TV!), I get mesmerized (being a psuedo-watch guy). I've got a couple from them, not fancy, but functional, especially my diver watch w/Japanese automatic movement.

driver100 · September 2014

@robr2 said:the average age of cars was 5.6 years. In 2000, it was 9 years. Today, it's 11.4 years. I look at my three cars and I'm at 8.8 years average.

I heard that number the other day...average age of a car today is 11 years! I am wondering if a reason is because people have more 2nd cars these days, and so the mileage gets broken up between them, and one car won't be used nearly as much.

When I heard that statistic they said it was because todays cars last longer. It seems to me that you could probably get 200 or 300K miles out of a car today fairly easily....I don't remember cars going more than much over 100k in the good old days...50s and 60s.

driver100 · September 2014

@Mr_Shiftright said:'57 Chevy was better built, drove better, ran better, held up better, was faster. The Ford was more attractive to my eyes,

My father had a 57 Ford, my Uncle a 57 Chev, and I think I would say the same. The Chev was pretty rock solid, the Ford...not so much. I believe Chev made a much better 6 cyl engine, but Ford was good with their 8s. Chevys were finished off nicer, and somehow that style became a classic, I think because of the bullets on the hood. Ford certainly looked more modern at the times...longer, lower, wider......but futuristic isn't always better for nostalgia purposes.

driver100 · September 2014

One more....when wagons looked like wagons.....

robr2 · September 2014

@driver100 said:
I heard that number the other day...average age of a car today is 11 years! I am wondering if a reason is because people have more 2nd cars these days, and so the mileage gets broken up between them, and one car won't be used nearly as much.

When I heard that statistic they said it was because todays cars last longer. It seems to me that you could probably get 200 or 300K miles out of a car today fairly easily....I don't remember cars going more than much over 100k in the good old days...50s and 60s.

In 1970, there were were 89.2 million registered cars in America and a population of 203.3 million - so about 43% penetration. In 2010, there was about 252.4 million registered cars and a population of 308.7 million - 82% penetration. I think it's more cars per family/household and that the cars of today can go much longer than in 1970.

When I was a kid, my Dad used to get a car every 3 years. Mind you, he drove a lot - maybe 15K miles a year and he didn't trust cars beyond 50K. My Mom eventually got a car because she worked and she couldn't take the bus to work anymore. Very few families in my neighborhood had two cars and I recall many who didn't have one at all.

Today, there are 3 cars in my household and some homes in my neighborhood have a car for every kid and adult.

stickguy · September 2014

Cars lasting longer and people keeping them longer is not the same thing.

abacomike · September 2014

@stickguy said:

"Cars lasting longer and people keeping them longer is not the same thing."

Without doubt! One reason the used car market has been in an upswing is due directly to the build quality of some of the major brands, including the Japanese and German makes.

Remember, the cost of a new car has been increasing $500 a year for domestic brands and $1000 a year for the German luxury brands.

In 2009, the "base" price (without options) of a new E Class sedan was $47,000. The 2015's will be $54,000. Have you noticed the increases in pricing of BMW's?

Even domestic brands have been getting more expensive. Thus used car values have been rising at similar levels.

driver100 · September 2014

@robr2 said:When I was a kid, my Dad used to get a car every 3 years. Mind you, he drove a lot - maybe 15K miles a year and he didn't trust cars beyond 50K. My Mom eventually got a car because she worked and she couldn't take the bus to work anymore. Very few families in my neighborhood had two cars and I recall many who didn't have one at all.

That's about how I remember it too. My Dad travelled for a living and got a car at about every 50K miles, which was usually every other year. Since he travelled we always had a 2nd car for my mother. Since his car was important...his livelihood, I could only drive the 2nd car, once a VW, once a Hillman, and once a Corvair. No other families had 2 cars for quite awhile.

I guess that's where I find it hard to share my car. Like I told my wife, I don't let anyone else use my toothbrush, my underwear, or my car.

stever · September 2014

My dad had a drugstore and my mom was a nurse, and they always had two cars as long as I can remember. Dad's favorite was a '53 Buick Special that lasted forever. He got it new and I got stopped by a trooper in it when I was 13. He finally sold it a couple of years later, rotten floorboards and all. Mom meanwhile got a new wagon every 3 years or so. When I got my license she had switched to a GMC truck that she kept longer than usual and then got an Impala that she drove at least a decade. Her last car was a Protege that she drove 15 years before she quit driving.

Mostly I remember those old cars in the 50s and 60s always having flats, overheating, and being in the shop a lot of the time.

stickguy · September 2014

I hate the idea of the attendant at the dealer driving my car in for service. I might have a stroke if I had to lend it to someone to use. Which is why I made sure to have something to share with my daughter that I had no real interest in!

ab348 · September 2014

Awhile back I did a mental inventory of the cars Dad had when I was growing up and I was astounded at how often he traded cars. He went into the real estate business in the early '60s and had to have a decent car to take clients around in, but I had no idea he traded as frequently as he did.

Before my time: '55 Ford sedan (his first brand new car)

'56 Ford Crown Vic (first car I have a vague memory of)

'59 Ford

'61 Meteor

'62 Ford Consul (British)

'63 Pontiac Laurentian (Chevy Belair trim level)

'65 Pontiac Parisienne (4-dr HT)

'63 Pontiac Parisienne (business setback caused him to trade down)

'66 Olds Dynamic 88 (4-dr HT, loved this car)

'67 Ponitac Parisienne (4-dr HT)

'69 Chevy Impala sport coupe (awful car)

'71 Dodge Monaco (4-dr HT, great car)

'68 Volvo 144 (gas crisis car)

'73 Volvo 144

'74 Ford Maveric

'75 AMC Hornet Sportabout

'78 Ponitac LeMans Grand Safari

'79 Chevy Impala

;81 Olds Omega

'84 Dodge Aries wagon

'90 Dodge Dynasty (his last ride)

graphicguy · September 2014

@snakeweasel said:
Awhile back we were discussing watches and someone mentioned getting an expensive watch (a brand I cannot recall) at a big discount on a cruise. Well a few days ago I was on a cruise when they held a sale on Invicta watches. Man that was a feeding frenzy but I managed to sneak in and found a watch with a MSRP of $800 priced at $120 (85% off). Nice looking and feeling watch that I came very close to buying but decided against it (I normally carry a pocket watch when I carry a watch).

Like LD said, there are a bunch of those "made for discounting" watch brands out there. I'm wearing an Invicta right now with a Miyota automatic movement. Keeps great time. I can knock around in it. I think I paid less than $!00 for it 2-3 years ago. I've taken showers with it. Worked in the yard with it. Washed cars with it. Played golf with it. Aside from some desk rash on the underside of the band, it looks new. Probably have received more compliments on it than I ever did on a $3K+ Tag Huer I wear when I dress up (which is also a favorite brand on cruise ships).

Some of the other "high value" watches out there in addition to Invicta.....Stauer, Skagen, Android, Renato, Stuhrling, Swiss Legend. and a bunch more at that "ShopHQ.com" site (which used to be Shop NBC)..

Heck...I"ve seen some pretty nice deals on those Citizen watches on cruise ships. And, Citizen makes some pretty nice watches.

Other sites....

Jomashop.com
Worldofwatches.com

koctailz · September 2014

OK Confession time for me....I got screwed on my recent lease. The sad thing is I know better as I have leased cars before but this dealer zinged me. It was a Ford dealer.

Here is the story...I emailed several dealers to get the best price on the vehicle. I was actually at first going to purchase and then later decided to lease. So I got the dealer where I had originally test drove the car to match the price of another dealer, this was a very good price...about $1K under invoice. So I march in Friday evening to do the deal. They run my credit..it comes back at 785 and I ask if that qualifies me for the best lease rate...the sales rep says yes. Usually when I lease I always use edmunds to try and find the money factor, residual, etc. For this vehicle though I could not find a forum where this info was available. This made me fell a little uneasy but I had never had a dealer manipulate either on me...so I went with trust....first mistake.

They drew up the papers and the monthly payment was in line with a quote I had received from anotehr dealer about a week earlier. So a few days go by and I talk to a friend who leased the same car and his payment is much lower. I compare our leases. My rent charge is 4 times higher than his. Ouch. The lease apr money factor is .25 for this vehicle according to kyfdx...I finally was able to contact him for this info. I was charged 2.7%. Information is power in any negotiation and unfortunately I didn't have all the info prior to signing. I specifically asked the dealer if my credit qualified me for best lease rate and they said yes. That was an obvious lie and that really gets me.

At this point I don't think I have any recourse....or do I? Would appreciate any advice on the topic.

isellhondas · September 2014

@driver100 said:

That six that Ford was building in those days were actually pretty good engines that lasted a long time. I'll give an edge to the Chevy 235's though.

The Y block Fords just couldn't match the performance of the 265/283's that Chevy used.

They also had upper oiling problems which became even worse if Pennzoil or Quaker State oils were used.

abacomike · September 2014

@koctailz‌ said:

"At this point I don't think I have any recourse....or do I? Would appreciate any advice on the topic."

Unfortunately, you do not. You signed the lease agreement and by doing that, you accepted the terms.

You were a "payment" lessee as opposed to a customer who dissects all the variables in a lease - money factor, cap cost, dealer fees, terms, etc.

Perhaps if you checked the pricing with more than two dealerships, you might have caught them all at their game.

Did your friend have the same out of pocket costs (such as cap cost reduction, if any)? Are his payments identical to yours? Are the capitalized costs identical?

Just because your money factors are different doesn't necessarily mean everything else is the same.

But, you admitted you knew you had made a mistake by not going into the dealership armed with what you needed in order to get the best deal.

One possibility you have is if you leased the car Friday and the State you live in has a cooling off period of 5 days.

driver100 · September 2014

@koctailz said:. My rent charge is 4 times higher than his. Ouch.

Mike's answer seems right on koctailz. He's the one who sold cars.

What the heck is a "rent charge"?

Also, out of curiosity, what are your buy back rates like? This doesn't look like a factor here, but occassionally that can make a difference in rates.

jayrider · September 2014

A local dealer [big one] said that when he started selling cars in the early 60's there were lots of folks driving "old cars." I guess he meant beaters. He said that now you rarely see really old cars that show their age. He makes sense since even folks who can't afford a decent car can get one thanks to subprime lending. Bodies and paint are holding up better too.

explorerx4 · September 2014

@koctailz, paying 4 times as much interest seems like a big deal on the surface, but it would help to know, what vehicle did you lease? Maybe you are only paying a few extra bucks and you lost bragging rights.

stever · September 2014

I thought that only New Jersey had any sort of cooling off period for leasing and it was just 24 hours for you to review to contract?

@koctailz‌, you can write up a Dealer Review here (and on Yelp, Google+, Dealer Rater, etc.). Venting may not help get your deal redone, but it'll put more people on notice that they need to pay attention to the numbers, especially at this dealer.

abacomike · September 2014

@stever said:

"Venting may not help get your deal redone, but it'll put more people on notice that they need to pay attention to the numbers, especially at this dealer."

The money factor is the interest charged on the total cap cost of the car for the term of the lease. The money factor is set by the leasing company, BUT, the dealer can set that interest rate at any level at or above that level, this making "BACK END PROFIT". The dealer can do the same thing on a loan rate - adding points to the buy rate from the bank or financial institution.

Unless you are aware of buy rates and money factors, you can easily get "taken to the cleaners" by the dealership.

stever · September 2014

Seems to help to get prequalified and invite the dealer to meet or beat your rate if you finance. Dealers make money just packaging loans right? So you may get a better rate than your bank or CU gave you and the dealer can still make a few bucks.

abacomike · September 2014

@stever said:

"Seems to help to get prequalified and invite the dealer to meet or beat your rate if you finance. Dealers make money just packaging loans right? So you may get a better rate than your bank or CU gave you and the dealer can still make a few bucks"

Definitely! Before rates started to rise a little on car loans over the last two years, I always financed $15,000 or more directly from Mercedes Benz Financial Services. The dealer's "buy" rate was .99% while the advertised rate was 1.9%-2.9%. Bank rates were 3.4% and Credit Union rates were 2.75%.

So, yes - get pre-approved from a financial institution before going in to buy and be prepared to get an even better rate from the dealership.

stever · September 2014

be prepared to get an even better rate from the dealership.

Lots of buyers are surprised by that - guess most of them expect to take it in the shorts on everything at the dealer.

henryn · September 2014

@abacomike said:

>

Before rates started to rise a little on car loans over the last two years, I always financed $15,000 or more directly from Mercedes Benz Financial Services. The dealer's "buy" rate was .99% while the advertised rate was 1.9%-2.9%. Bank rates were 3.4% and Credit Union rates were 2.75%.

I haven't seen rates go up. Not on car loans. Mortgages, yes, car loans, no. I belong to 3 credit unions, one is at 1.59%, and the other two are at 1.99%. A year ago, the low was 1.99 and the high was 2.49, from the same 3 credit unions.

nyccarguy · September 2014

The plot thickens

I received a follow up email from the dealership here in Stamford:

"We recently provided you with a quote for a Subaru Impreza. Please confirm you have received it-feel free to give me a call or reply this email."

So I fired an email back saying that I'm interested in a Legacy instead of the Impreza. 2.5i Premium with EYESIGHT. I list the vehicle's MSRP & Invoice just to make certain he knows what I'm looking for.

He then quickly replies

"You got the MSRP perfect, invoice is $24,622, you can order for that amount plus $379 conveyance for a taxable $25,001. Please allow 8-12 weeks for delivery."

No we are getting somewhere. I'm going to see if I can drive it tomorrow after work.

Interesting point that he's telling me the invoice is $24,622, but when I calculate it here on edmunds, it comes out to $24,277. Why the $345 discrepancy?

abacomike · September 2014

@nyccarguy said:

"Interesting point that he's telling me the invoice is $24,622, but when I calculate it here on edmunds, it comes out to $24,277. Why the $345 discrepancy?"

There are a few possibilities:

*advertising fees charged to the dealer on the invoice by the manufacturer

*dealer minimum profit added to all deals - a hidden profit

*a hidden dealer fee

*he's lying to you

*Edmunds's invoice is usually a little off as I noticed when I buy my Mercedes cars - I see the dealer invoice and it is a few hundred higher than what Edmunds shows

There could be other reasons, but these are a few possibilities.

nyccarguy · September 2014

There's definitely "hidden profit," the dealer's fee is $379, & he's lying to me:).

abacomike · September 2014

@nyccarguy said:

"There's definitely "hidden profit," the dealer's fee is $379, & he's lying to me:)."

He might be, but notice on Edmunds that there is usually a disclaimer re their invoice which usually relates to advertising fees/costs assessed on every vehicle sold - it's a charge at the very bottom of the dealer invoice, but not shown on the factory invoice.

Check it out with the dealer - ask him why the discrepancy and/or ask him to see the dealer invoice!

mako1a · September 2014

Maybe the dealer just had a new toilet installed and when the dealer got the bill for the toilet he asked why so much and the plumber said parts are high and he said where do you get your parts and he said from Bradd. Bada Bing an extra $379.

stickguy · September 2014

that lease discussion is a perfect segue to my story from tonight. Stopped to test out an Accord. at the end, asked for a lease quote. salesdude wanders off. I predict they are going back at about $300. she takes over, and wins. comes back at $1500 down, about $348/mo. seems nuts. so I ask for residual and MF. 57% (seemed low, but was on a 2014). But MF was .0027, or 6.14%! Ouch.

so, I question the numbers, and get a response about how they take worst case and show that, just in case your credit is crap, so they don't have to up the quote. Never saw that before. Plus, some of the fees did not even apply. About the only "real" number was was the selling price (which was actually pretty good I think).

When I questioned everything (and converted the MF to an interest rate), he acted almost guilty and tried to explain how when they ran credit, if it was good the payment would go down. Yeah, right. More likely if you had no clue, and just bit on the payment (seeing the big discount on the top line), guess what, you were getting that payment!

I was explain this to the wife while we were waiting. She had no clue how it worked, or the shell game they were doing, which IMO was exactly the point.

once I flagged it all, and was ready to leave, the manager came over, promising me his best "wow me" price, assuming I really did have good credit. And of course, pushing to take it tonight. That payment (same sales price) suddenly dropped to $275. Slightly more in line with what I was expecting.

they actually had the same trick on the buy section. a nice matrix of DP and Monthly nut, just at the 3.29% "mediocre credit" rate, instead of the .09% good credit HFC rate. Pretty sure anyone that did not question it was getting bumped.

really rubbed me the wrong way. Not that it would matter to me in the end, but still, just seemed sleazy.

stickguy · September 2014

Jersey has no cooling off recourse. You sign your name and drive over the curb, and you own it.

mako1a · September 2014

_ drive over the curb, and you own it._

I wonder how long you can leave the car there before the contract sets in stone.

abacomike · September 2014

@mako1a‌ said:

"_ drive over the curb, and you own it._

I wonder how long you can leave the car there before the contract sets in stone."

Actually, by driving off the dealership's property after signing all paperwork and providing any monies owed, you are "TAKING POSSESSION" of the property. Unless/until the buyer has taken possession of the property, the contract for sale/lease is unenforceable.

mako1a · September 2014

Next time I buy a new car and it's sitting in the new car delivery space, I think I'll order Chinese just to see how long I can go before making the transaction "official".

abacomike · September 2014

@mako1a‌ said:

"Next time I buy a new car and it's sitting in the new car delivery space, I think I'll order Chinese just to see how long I can go before making the transaction "official"."

I'll go with you if you promise to order Hunan Fried Dumplings!!!

mako1a · September 2014

When you drive off, do the salesguys put a tick mark on the board and do high fives?

stickguy · September 2014

at the honda dealer I was at tonight, they actually ring a big bell when a sale is made.

abacomike · September 2014

@mako1a‌ said:

"When you drive off, do the salesguys put a tick mark on the board and do high fives?"

Only if they made a "killing" on your sale - but knowing you, they probably won't get the chance - you'll make a killing on them, most likely!

abacomike · September 2014

@stickguy said:

"at the honda dealer I was at tonight, they actually ring a big bell when a sale is made."

That's like when I was in the hospital and every time a new baby was born, you'd hear chimes and bells in an ensemble of "Rock-a-bye Baby", even at 1:00 AM. Don't ya just love hospitals that wake you to bells and chimes at 1:00 AM?

mako1a · September 2014

When I dumped the old Bronco on them trading for the first Mustang the salesguy asked why I traded it in. I responded..."I heard you guys were big laydowns" He laughed pretty good.

driver100 · September 2014

@stickguy said:really rubbed me the wrong way. Not that it would matter to me in the end, but still, just seemed sleazy.

Seems to me there are two kinds of dealers. One kind is pretty good in that they give you a decent price up front, you do have to work a bit at getting a good discount and a good trade allowance...but, once they know you are knowledgeable they go with the flow and don't play games. The sales manager at the Audi dealership - which is in a high income area said, we deal with business people so they know the score.

The other kind of dealer you have to watch like a hawk. They are out to get you any way they can. The VW dealer in St Petes started out like that but once I told them it was their last chance...my price or I walk they came around. I think it is the way of the business...they test the waters to see what they can get a way with.

robr2 · September 2014

@nyccarguy said:

He then quickly replies

"You got the MSRP perfect, invoice is $24,622, you can order for that amount plus $379 conveyance for a taxable $25,001. Please allow 8-12 weeks for delivery."

No we are getting somewhere. I'm going to see if I can drive it tomorrow after work.

Interesting point that he's telling me the invoice is $24,622, but when I calculate it here on edmunds, it comes out to $24,277. Why the $345 discrepancy?

Is it a CT dealer? If so then that is New England Subaru's charge. Remember the New England states have a distributor (Ernie Boch) and they charge more than surrounding states.

driver100 · September 2014

@mako1a said:
When you drive off, do the salesguys put a tick mark on the board and do high fives?

I watched a program once (could have been 60 Minutes) where these guys were selling really crappy used cars. On one car they actually glued the door handle onto the door.

Some guy came in, bought the car, and drove off.

The salesmaen were sitting around laughing their heads off and giving high fives at the moron who bought the car....nice!

imidazol97 · September 2014

@abacomike said:
That's like when I was in the hospital and every time a new baby was born, you'd hear chimes and bells in an ensemble of "Rock-a-bye Baby", even at 1:00 AM. Don't ya just love hospitals that wake you to bells and chimes at 1:00 AM?

That's a lot better than the "Paging Dr. Firestone to 1345 stat" follow by some other code pages.

ab348 · September 2014

@robr2 said:
Is it a CT dealer? If so then that is New England Subaru's charge. Remember the New England states have a distributor (Ernie Boch) and they charge more than surrounding states.

I didn't know that Boch was their distributor. I wonder if you can get a better deal if you buy a Subie from one of his dealerships.

I don't know how I feel about Ernie Boch. We get the Boston TV stations on cable here and a few years ago he was all over them, doing his own commercials with his "Come on DOWN!" schtick, appearing on Phantom Gourmet and picking up the tab with his Amex black card for this over-the-top dinner thing they did, etc. Lately though he only appears in animations preceding PBS shows that he sponsors and they show him with long hair, rockstar facial hair, etc., looking not at all like the slick car salesman Ernie Boch. He seems to like playing music now. I gather he is as wealthy as Midas.

I understand his grandfather started it all with a Rambler dealership back in the '40s/'50s. How things have changed.

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