Tires, tires, tires

capriracer · April 2007

"......the manufacturer is - continental. but since VW doesn't certify its tires, I have to take it each time to discount tire so i can claim the warranty on it...it's been alot of wasted time and energy in this big mess....."

I just wanted to comment:

It is obvously wrong from the tire manufacturer to be paying for this since the problem is obviously in the vehicle.

But I can assure you that Discount Tire is the one paying for this, since the tire manufacturer will not accept a warranty claim for a tire with alignment wear.......Unless Discount Tire is charging the VW dealer back.

Does it not seem strange that vehicle manufacturers provide a warranty on every part of the vehicle, except tires? Even parts they don't manufacture. Isn't it past time for them to step up?

dudette3 · April 2007

Hi,
I am looking for a recommendation for tires for a Ford Focus. The rear two need to be replaced (Goodyear, original equip). The Front two tires are Michelin X Radial tires.

Is it necessary to have teh same tire on all four wheels, does it make a difference from a ride/safety perspective?

I would like to purchase two additional tires, and have them put on teh front, and move teh front two to the rear.

We live in Michigan, so a good all season tire that will be safe during the winter... any recommendations will be very helpful, thank you.

driveright · April 2007

Read this before you install a pair of new tires:
link title

woodyww · April 2007

I'd start researching tires on the Tire Rack site--look at the user reviews which include snow performance. And/or call them. "all season" tires that are actually good in snow are not common IMO. One that aparently is is the Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S, but I don't know if they come in a focus size.

Of course it's nice to have all 4 the same. You could always sell the 2 good ones on craigs list or someplace.

caswb · April 2007

Hello, first time posting here. I've read your board a couple of times for various issues etc. I have a 2002 Neon LE that currently has approx. 42,150 KMS. I have had problems with my tires pretty much since day 1. On Saturday I didn't notice that my front passenger tire was flat and drove out of my driveway and onto the street with it. The steering wheel was pulling really hard to the right and I stopped the car not to far from here got out and looked and sure enough it was flat as a pancake. I turned the car around and drove home. I may have gone a kilometer at most and not over 20 kms/hr here in the neighbourhood. Hubby said I need new wheels and tires. I really don't even know where to start. What price and I looking at and what kinds of tires should I get? I know Green & Ross, OK Tire. I wanted to get new tires at Costco but don't think they sell the wheels. The ones I got on my car are aluminum but for unknown reasons are totally scratched/etched/pitted etc. Do I really need new wheels? I don't drive much as you can see from the mileage... Get regular oil checks etc. They always laugh when I do as sometimes it can just be a couple of hundred over the last oil change etc. So... What kind of tires do you recommend and do I actually need wheels? Of course this is happening - because I have just one car payment left and then it's paid in full. Seems to always be the way eh.. Thank You for taking the time to read my post.

I really hate car problems. Oh, forgot to say that I have already had to get the 3 others fixed as they too were all leaking at some point in time. So this was the last one that had a slow leak. Also hubby took the tire off on Saturday night and filled it up - it's almost flat again so there is definitely something wrong with it and I'm sure I didn't help by driving on it. All tires have been rotated at their required times etc..

paisan · April 2007

For those of you out there looking for great all-season tires, I can't say enought good things about the Sumitommo HTR+ They are quite in-expensive, have good dry grip and one of the best grips in wet and light snow conditions. There are better tires out there but usually cost 2x the price. If you can find em in your size they are a good deal.

-mike
Motorsports and Tuning Host

woodyww · April 2007

Trying to figure out your post--using paragraphs helps.

Uuummmmm.....1. if your wheels aren't damaged, but only scratched/etched/pitted, then that's only cosmetic; you don't need new wheels. 2. what are the tires you have now, & are they the original tires? 3. Do you ever put air in your tires, &/or check the air pressure? 4. have you ever had your tire problem diagnosed anywhere?

capriracer · April 2007

Your post is a liitle confusing....and I feel obliagated to point out a series of "Don't's"

Don't operate a tire that is flat. Tires need inflation pressure to work properly and operating tires when they are flat destroys them from the inside out. Plus you run the risk of damnaging the rim.

Don't operate a vehicle when the oil pressure light is on. Engines need oil pressure to operate properly and operating them with the oil light on can damage them from the inside out.

Having said that, you need professional intervention. I suggest you find a tire dealer - ASAP!

caswb · April 2007

My apologies on the paragraphs. I should know better. I was quite frazzled when I posted. I can repost if you'd like with corrections if needed?

I have Michelin Harmony Tires P185/60R15 84T M+S Tubeless These are the original tires.

Maybe hubby said I need new wheels because I drove on the flat tire on Saturday but again it was just a very short distance and very low speed right here on our street. When I realized what was going on I turned the car around and came right home.

I personally think it is also only cosmetic that he's saying I need new wheels. He thought the scratched/etched/pitted could result in an air leak. I don't really think it's that bad. I've never hit a curb or anything.

He does put air in my tires and checks the air pressure. Just not in the last while as I don't drive much and they looked fine.

This has never been diagnosed anywhere. Back in 2005 Repair Rim Seal was done on 3 of the 4 tires. This must have been the last (I lost track of which ones were done due to tire rotations)

Thanks again for your help.

caswb · April 2007

My apologies capriracer. It's just a tire question. I only added the oil part to accentuate the low mileage. I should not have put it at all.

Thanks for the don'ts...

Believe me when I say that I will walk around my car EVERY time before I start it from now on.

I also know not to operate when the oil pressure light is on.

Only twice I've had problems with lights on - it turned out to be the gas cap. I bought a locking one at Canadian Tire and it was leaking. I've thrown it out and put the original one back on.

I agree I need a professional TIRE intervention. I was just trying to see if I needed wheels and tires or just tires alone and also to get some suggestions on good ones.

Thank You once again!

caswb · April 2007

Can someone please tell me what would cause this scratched/etched/pitted on 5 year old wheels with such low mileage?? Is that a flaw in the aluminum or just our regular road/weather conditions? Just curious. Thanks again.

blufz1 · April 2007

Discount tire will give you free lifetime rotation and will even air your tires up periodically for free. The tire mileage you got is normal for oem Michelins. Your wheels are probably ok. The pitting may be from salt used on some roadways in winter. It's just cosmetic. Hope this helps.

capriracer · April 2007

".................Can someone please tell me what would cause this scratched/etched/pitted on 5 year old wheels with such low mileage?? Is that a flaw in the aluminum or just our regular road/weather conditions? Just curious. Thanks again................."

Rims aren't designed to touch the road surface and if they do, the metal will be abraided.

So if you operate a tire without inflation pressure, it is possible for the rim flange - the part that makes the rim larger in diameter than the hole in the tire - to come into contact with the road surface. Or worse!!!! - the tire could be dislodged from the rim and then the entire weight of the vehicle is now carried by the rim flange.

You see, it is the inflation pressure that holds the tire out against the rim and without that pressure, it doesn't take much force to "debead" a tire.

That's one reason why you should never operate a vehicle with a flat tire. Another is that vehicles don't behave predictably with an odd tire - and a flat would qualify as "odd". A different tire would, too!

paisan · April 2007

On a side note all this talk about "Don't operate your vehicle with a flat tire" IF you are in a spot where it would be dangerous to get out of your car, ride the rim to a safe place before changing it. I've heard way too many stories where someone got killed because they were changing a tire on a tiny shoulder on a busy expressway.

-mike
Motorsports and Tuning Host

imidazol97 · April 2007

To reinforce the danger point:
On I-75 there was a 2-mile strip of 2 lanes with concrete temp barriers on each side-no berm. A backup occured one afternoon and when I got through it there was a man in the right hand lane changing a rear tire on a smaller car which is light in the rear to begin with. Drive it to the end of the work area!

woodyww · April 2007

Back in 2005 Repair Rim Seal was done on 3 of the 4 tires.

All of this sounds fairly wierd. Why did 3 of your tires need Repair Rim Seal?

Going to a "good" tire shop is a good idea. Of course "some" of them can be pretty aggressive in selling stuff, esp. with a customer who's not sure what they need.

Costco is really good, & I think you get a free lifetime hazard warranty. But they may not really diagnose any problems. The installers should notice if there's anything wrong with your wheels tho.

Finally, calling the tire rack for advice couldn't hurt. They may have cheap steel wheels in stock too, if you wanted that.

BTW, how worn are the tires you have now? And how much air do you put in your tires? Are you sure your tire gauge is accurate? You can get a good gauge for $10 from amazon & learn to check them yourself.

nancy49022 · April 2007

" alt="image" />i have a 95 mustang sharp just got it but it has some $$$ wheels on it there called KRONIX EKKO 990 they left the reciept in car with BFG G-FORCE rims & T/A KDW tires $3500 worth i need to go to MO are these worthy low profiles?? i got car for $1000 so it was a sweet deal can ya tell me if there highway safe?? :P :P

paisan · April 2007

Yes they are great tires, fine for the highway.

-mike
Motorsports and Tuning Host

dudette3 · May 2007

Thanks for the feedback.
On closer inspection of my dad's Ford Focus, I found that the front left tire was installed at the wrong size -it should be P195/60/R15, the size installed is a P195/65/15. I think this happened when my dad took the vehicle into a Ford Dealer for repair work a couple months ago, after a bad weather induced accident.

Is this something to be concerned about? Is the 60/65 a dimension of sidewall thickness? I called teh Ford dealer that did the repair work, but unfortunately they are out of businesses. I have noticed that driving the vehicle, it requires more attention to keep it going straight on certain highways, particularly at higher speeds. Also, I feel a sense of instability riding in the back seat (kind of like fishtailing, but not to that extreme) but am not sure if it is due to the left front tire being large, or the rear tires being ready to be replaced.

Any suggestions will be helpful.

Thank you.

paisan · May 2007

You should have the same size tires on all 4 wheels if possible and at the least the same size on each axle.

The 60 is the ratio of the width to height. So if you have a 195 60 on one side and 195 65 on the other the side with the 65 will have a larger radius than the other side, not a real good thing for stability, tire wear and other reasons. I'd get another 195 65 or 195 60 to match the other side.

-mike

micweb · May 2007

And tires that are mismatched in diameter, as these are, should DEFINITELY not be on the front, or drive axle, of your car since they will stress the differential. At a minimum, move that oddball tire to the rear.

BTW, the new safety rule is that your WORST tires should be on your drive axle, not your best. This reverses decades of conventional wisdom, but Michelin ran extensive tests and found out that it's much easier to spin out when your best tires are on the drive axle (since you have front wheel drive, the drive axle is the front of the car).

paisan · May 2007

BTW, the new safety rule is that your WORST tires should be on your drive axle, not your best. This reverses decades of conventional wisdom, but Michelin ran extensive tests and found out that it's much easier to spin out when your best tires are on the drive axle (since you have front wheel drive, the drive axle is the front of the car).

Interesting, do you have any links on this, I'd love to read up on it as I'm one to put the best tires in the front (steering and braking).

-mike

kyfdx · May 2007

Your best tires should always be on the rear, regardless of FWD or RWD... This is what gives you the best lateral grip, assuming acceleration isn't being applied....

(in other words, around a curve at constant speed).

regards,
kyfdx

micweb · May 2007

Also Tire Rack, both of them have information about proper mounting when you only buy two new tires. Tire Rack might have a link to the Michelin study.

What kyfdx makes sense, but I guess we'll all have to double check now.

Since I always buy full sets of tires, in practice this issue has never come up for me.

paisan · May 2007

Ditto on that, I always buy 4 at a time.

-mike

krzyss · May 2007

If dad's car has ABS it might be fooled by different circumferences.
195/60R15 and 195/65R15 are close and if it was an emergency I would use it as replacement (like in the middle of the desert) and put it on rear (as Focus is FWD).
60 or 65 is the sidewall height as the percentage of tire width.
Check this
tire rack knowledge base

How many miles on old tires? Maybe it is time to replace all 4?

Krzys

PS Somehow I am not surprised the dealer is out of business.

mazda6iguy · May 2007

I happen to like the Goodyear TripleTreds I purchased for my Mazda 6 sedan. Not only are they great tires, but they look cool too!

blufz1 · May 2007

Did you notice a loss of mpg on the triples?

smokey75 · May 2007

I have the Tripletread Fortera's & have not noticed a loss of MPG. I came from Michelin Cross Terrain

blufz1 · May 2007

Thanks for the info. I replaced my oem Michelins w/ comfort treads and lost 1 mpg. Very smooth,comfortable,mid priced tire w/ 80k warranty, tho. Thanks again.

pathstar1 · May 2007

I've posted it before but here it is again.

If you slide the front of the car you will see what you may hit and can take appropriate action. You will still have some steering control.

If you slide the rear of the car it usually means you will swap ends (spin). You WILL NOT see what you are about to hit. You will be unable to take avoidance action, as the car will be spinning.

Hence, it is preferable to have the best tires on the rear, to keep it from sliding first.

Also expressed as oversteer/understeer and loose/tight.

paisan · May 2007

Hmm, being a track driving instructor, I can see your point, however, your front wheels which control your steering and usually have more weight over them will essentially pull you through a skid with poor rear tires, whereas poor tires in the front steering, driving and weighted wheels can have you plow into things like guard rails.

-mike
Motorsports and Tuning Host

kyfdx · May 2007

If you were drifting, on which wheels would you put the worn out tires?

Good ones on the back.. The fact that the rear tires are being unloaded during braking argues for having better tires back there, so they don't break loose...

(not an expert)

paisan · May 2007

Hmm, being a track driving instructor, I can see your point, however, your front wheels which control your steering and usually have more weight over them will essentially pull you through a skid with poor rear tires, whereas poor tires in the front steering, driving and weighted wheels can have you plow into things like guard rails.

-mike
Motorsports and Tuning Host

kyfdx · May 2007

If you were drifting, on which wheels would you put the worn out tires?

Good ones on the back.. The fact that the rear tires are being unloaded during braking argues for having better tires back there, so they don't break loose...

(not an expert)

paisan · May 2007

However, to follow this up, since I mostly drive AWD cars, my tires are usually all evenly worn and I never mix and match sets. I also generally replace my tires at the 30k or 2 year mark regardless of how much tread is left on them as that's when they will start to lose traction. Everytime I think about keeping tires longer than their traction will allow, I say "is it really worth it for $500 to wreck my car? nope not really, and proceed to replace them"

-mike

capriracer · May 2007

Paison,

I have spent this week demonstrating this 5 times a day. In the demonstration, a car with 4 full tread tires does not spin out, and a car with full treads front and 75% worn tires on the rear does.

I've put over 100 people through this (They drove!) and everyone was able to get Car #2 to spin, and no one could get Car #1 to do it.

Put the new ones on the rear!!!

paisan · May 2007

Your example above doesn't make sense. Of course a car with 75% worn tires in the rear compared to a car with 4 full tread tires is more likely to spin.

I'd be more inclined to go with your theory if you said you had put a car with 75% worn tires in the front and full tread in the rear v. the opposite.

Also why on earth would someone have a car setup with 75% worn on one axle and 0% worn on the other axle? That is like saying "my engine blew up because I had 50% of the oil drained out of it".

You are right though the car may spin, however, a car in the rain with bad tires on the steering and powering wheels will just plow right into the oncoming traffic lane. So while your theory of "spinning" may be correct, having a car plow into oncoming traffic isn't exactl safe either.

-mike

mz6greyghost · May 2007

My mother bought two new tires for her Taurus a bunch of years ago, and the shop placed them on the front of the car. After the first few instances (under rainy or snowy conditions) when she fish-tailed through intersections going about 5 MPH, she had the new tires moved to the back. The car never lost control after that. At all.

capriracer · May 2007

Paison,

"........Also why on earth would someone have a car setup with 75% worn on one axle and 0% worn on the other axle?........"

Because FWD cars wear the front tires much more rapidly than the rears. If they don't rotate, then they will want to change only one set - and since it is a FWD, they'll want them installed on the front.

"...........So while your theory of "spinning" may be correct, having a car plow into oncoming traffic isn't exactly safe either......."

Which would you rather have happen? Be going backwards where you have no chance of recovering - or - be going forwards where when the vehicle slows down you regain the steering and can steer around what might be in front of you.
- and that just causes problems.
It is

paisan · May 2007

Because FWD cars wear the front tires much more rapidly than the rears. If they don't rotate, then they will want to change only one set - and since it is a FWD, they'll want them installed on the front.

Hmm so basically you are advocating people not rotating and just replacing the rear tires when 1 pair wears down? I don't get it, if you are rotating your tires properly then they'll all have even wear on them. Why chance it by replacing only 2 at a time, is your property and family's safety that low a priority that you won't drop the $200 extra for 4 tires v. 2?

Which would you rather have happen? Be going backwards where you have no chance of recovering - or - be going forwards where when the vehicle slows down you regain the steering and can steer around what might be in front of you.

I still don't understand this, if my back comes out I countersteer and get out of the skid, maybe I've just been driving AWD cars, RWD and on-track way too much to understand this, I like to steer with good traction, then again in a skid I usually GIVE it gas rather than take it away which is also counter-intuitive of what Joe Blow would do.

-mike

capriracer · May 2007

"..........Hmm so basically you are advocating people not rotating and just replacing the rear tires when 1 pair wears down? ......"

No, I am afraid you misunderstood me. I am a firm believer in rotation so the wear rate is more or less the same and all 4 tires wear out at the same time.

However, many folks don't rotate and wind up with a pair of worn tires and a pair of tires with significant wear life left. These folks generally will want to purchase only 2 tires - and if they do, those new tires should be put on the rear.

"...........if my back comes out I countersteer and get out of the skid, maybe I've just been driving AWD cars, RWD and on-track way too much to understand this..........."

Countersteering works a lot of times for RWD (and probably AWD), but for FWD once the back ends starts to come around, it very unlikely you will recover. Remember we are discussing situations where the rear tires are likely to break loose - which generally means in a cornering situation - and in those situations, losing the rear end, even on a RWD, can result in hitting whatever is on the outside of the curve - like the car in the next lane. Better to lose the front where you are at least you are pointing in the right direction.

pathstar1 · May 2007

A few more points as well.

If you spin, it is much more likely part of your car will be in the next lane (cars are longer than they are wide).

If the fronts only slip, you will drift to the side. The movement to the side usually occurs much more slowly than if you spin, and you have a much better chance of recovering, because you still have -some- traction. When you spin you have -no- traction.

Even if you don't fully recover before your vehicle and the one beside you (or the guard rail or whatever is there) try to occupy the same space, you would usually just sideswipe. Much less violent than if you hit directly, either with the rear, side, or front of your car.

Oh, and -my- AWD 2001 Pathfinder LE will still spin even when in "auto" mode (AWD). Been there, done that. Have the "T" shirt.

(fun on ice in deserted parking lots, learning the limits)

jipster · May 2007

Why wouldn't you want your best tires on the front, where most of the braking is being done?

ex. If you see a small child run out in the street, and you have to jam on your brakes, wouldn't stopping distance be shorter with the better grippyer tires in front?

kyfdx · May 2007

If you only use your tires for braking, that might be a good reason (though I think an unloaded tire in the rear would be more likely to break loose under hard braking, if it was worn out).

You can directly control the front end of your car with the steering wheel... but, not the rear end.. You can control it, but not directly.

While the front brakes do more of the work than the rear brakes, I'm not sure of the effects of worn tires on either end, especially since most cars have ABS now. It would be an interesting experiment..

regards,
kyfdx

pathstar1 · May 2007

On dry road worn tires actually have better grip than new tires. Only when the tread is neaded (on slippery surfaces) is it better.

Your same example: you brake hard and swerve to avoid the child. The rear, with worn tires, breaks loose and you spin over the child.

We can come up with all kinds of "what if" scenarios, but the bottom line is you should put the best tread on the rear for best safety in averaged use. That is, it's best that way most of the time. It's the best chance of keeping the car in control, as it will stay pointed in the direction you want most of the time. Once the car goes out of control you are just a passenger.

paisan · May 2007

On dry road worn tires actually have better grip than new tires.

While this may be the case in a few select cases, I would universally disagree in a general sense.

-mike

mz6greyghost · May 2007

Why?

It seems to me that people buy new tires because of diminished wet or snow traction due to the worn tread, not dry.

Why do you think race cars use slicks, with NO tread at all? Optimum dry traction.

ruking1 · May 2007

..."On dry road worn tires actually have better grip than new tires. Only when the tread is neaded (on slippery surfaces) is it better"...

I would agree. Your observation's are absolutely hidden in plain sight!!! There are HUGE implications, and I think the bottom line: a lot of tires are "prematurely" retired. In fact the consequences is more for added profit than "real safety"

paisan · May 2007

Why do you think race cars use slicks, with NO tread at all? Optimum dry traction.

As a racecar driver, I believe you are way way off-base here. First race tires don't have tread, yes, but the compound is setup to take the heat generated from having all that rolling resistance, also as race tires wear down, they get more slippery, even in the dry, despite the fact that there is no tread left.

If you have a bald tire in the dry, you will wind up cooking the casing and the tire will de-laminate.

-mike
Motorsports and Tuning Host

Tires, tires, tires

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