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Tires, tires, tires

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Comments

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,221
    If those are summer tires, then 25K is about the average wear, run-flat or not....

    Agree with everything else he has to say about run-flats, though..

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  • windgracewindgrace Member Posts: 84
    Anyone got any advice for me? Inherited a 2002 Honda Civic EX that needs new tires. Tire size 185-65-15. What tires do people recommend? The Michelin Defender/Energy Saver duo seem crazy expensive to me at around $550+ installed at Costco or Discount Tire. Do the Energy Savers work well on non-hybrid cars, or is the LRR wasted? I'm wondering if I can justify spending that much money on tires when I can get General Altimax RT, Pirelli P4 Four Seasons or Kumho KR21 for <$430 installed.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,221
    edited February 2013
    Way too much money to spend on a 10-yr-old car in that size...

    I just put Yokohamas on an Acura Legend, and spent $100 less than that, for a bigger size... ..

    Yokohama Avid Envigor...

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  • windgracewindgrace Member Posts: 84
    The Envigor sounds like a good tire, but I've read a lot of reviews that say they get loud after like 20k miles.

    Yeah, the Michelin was actually like $560 installed at Costco. I'm pricing out some Coopers (GFE, Lifeliner) etc. I think $425 for Pirelli P4 is a good price. I don't think it'd be worth getting the Discount Tire extended warranty for irreparable damage to the tires for another like $50, right?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,221
    I never buy extra insurance... but, that's just me..

    I've already sold the Acura, so I'm not going to find out about the noise.. Just thought it was a pretty good tire for the money...

    I like name brand tires, but those Michelins seem a little too pricy... If you aren't feeling the Yokohamas, check out Continental ContiProContact or Kumho
    Ecsta LX Platinum. I generally like Pirellis, but no experience with the P4...

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  • windgracewindgrace Member Posts: 84
    Yeah, Yokohamas seem pretty good for the $ for sure.

    I mean, I don't mind shelling out $ for quality tires as I plan on driving this car for quite some time. $560 just seems really steep for a 10+ year old car with 15" tires....I guess tire prices have gone up, because I was able to get a set of Michelins a year ago for $430 on my mom's Corolla at Costco...in a larger tire size...
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,238
    edited February 2013
    I've been pleased with the P4 Four Seasons on my Altima. They are prone to irregular edge wear (which will cause noise if left unchecked) and need to be cross-rotated to try to even that out.

    I was extremely impressed with the Kumho Ecsta 4X tires I had on the BMW (best rain tire I've ever had), and will probably look at a set of Kumhos the next time I need tires.
  • windgracewindgrace Member Posts: 84
    I don't think those Kumho come in my tire size unfortunately, as I've read great reviews.

    Also, I forgot to mention the Civic only has 53k miles on it. So, it'll be running for quite some time and I plan on driving it for years. I just don't know if Michelin is necessarily worth $120+ more than the Pirelli P4.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,221
    That model Kumho is what we have on my son's '87 E30.... 205/55-15 on 15 X 7 wheels....

    Only about 3K miles on them so far, but I got into a nice little 4-wheel drift with them the other day... ;)

    We bought them, because the place we bought his new wheels had a special on them.... The whole set came mounted and balanced, and we just bolted them on... Turns out, we really like the tires, so it all worked out...

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,221
    I like spirited driving... even in a Civic.. Those Michelins might be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but you could still dislike the driving characteristics..

    I'm no fan of LRR tires... less friction = less grip, in my mind... An '02 Civic is already a gas mileage champ.. the tires aren't going to help that much..

    Read the tests and reviews on TireRack and make sure you are getting the kind of tire you want...

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  • windgracewindgrace Member Posts: 84
    That's true. I averaged about 33-34+ in mostly highway driving thus far. My mom's 2010 Corolla gets about 28-29 average, 32 highway. And the Civic is getting that kind of mileage with Michelin Pilot Exaltos on it, the exact opposite of LRR tires. The tires need replacing as one pair is 6 years old and the other is 8 years old and they're not holding air well...

    I'm mostly looking for solid wear (50k real world tread life, I don't expect to really get 80k miles out of them), decent wet traction (ie they aren't spinning when accelerating from a stop, even when you go slow!), soaks up bumps around town/highway well and if it can improve my MPG even better...
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,238
    If you continue to put few miles on the Civic, tread wear may not be as much of a concern (many tire and vehicle manufacturers recommend checking or replacing tires after 6-10 years due to age deterioration). Just something to think about.

    Kumho has some other tires that rate well on Tire Rack. I would consider any of them, as well. Also, you might compare the price with shipping at Tire Rack to Discount Tire Direct's price. Tire Rack has a better review system, but I've bought my last couple of sets from Discount Tire because they had lower pricing.
  • windgracewindgrace Member Posts: 84
    I was considering the Kumho KR21, but for a few dollars more the Pirelli P4 get better reviews overall. Right now I think it's down to the Pirelli P4 @ $421 installed or the Michelin Energy Saver A/S $560. I know the Michelin has higher initial price, but I'm wondering if the superior gas mileage might recoup the difference over the life of the tire...?

    I'm trying to price out the Cooper GFE tire at some local shops as well.

    There's the Continental Procontact w Ecoplus that Discount Tire will install right in the middle price-wise at $490, but they're not sure if they'll be able to get order them. I'd probably spring for this tire if DT can get them. Better wet traction than the Energy Savers and better gas mileage than the Pirelli with similar real world tread life is a winner in my book.

    The Yokohama Avid Envigor mentioned a little earlier sounds like a solid tire, but I've read several reviews of the tire lasting only 30k miles. For a 60k mile tire I'd hope to at least get 45-50k out of them. I don't know if it's the tire or the driving style making them wear like that.
  • capriracercapriracer Member Posts: 907
    Thanks for removing the spam.
  • markus5markus5 Member Posts: 102
    When the installer Mounted 4 new Firestone Destination tires on an AWD Ford Escape a few months ago, they were mounted with the RWL on the inside of the rim. The installer did not ask me which way I preferred. I told them had I been asked up front, I would request the RWL out. They were very nice about this and we decided to make the correction at the first free tire rotation (5000 miles.)
    Question: should this have an effect on positioning the tires in the rotation ?
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,238
    "Question: should this have an effect on positioning the tires in the rotation?"

    No, they should be able to move them from one side of the car to the other without a problem. In fact, if they're Firestone Destination ATs, they might even flip the tire inside out on the same wheel, as those tires are nondirectional and symmetrical.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Just make sure they rebalance them.
  • markus5markus5 Member Posts: 102
    Assuming the Tires are non- directional and symmetrical, wouldn't it be better for the tires to roll in the same direction, regardless of the few ( 5,000 ) miles of initial break in ? That would mean flipping them on the rim and putting it on the opposite side of the car. Correct ?
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,238
    edited June 2013
    Some form of cross-rotation is often recommended for non-directional tires. On my Nissan, rotating the tires this way helped to alleviate some uneven edge wear on the tires, which would have eventually made them noisy if left unchecked.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Yep, for non-directional tires you rotate them side to side, resulting in them rolling in the opposite direction. No harm done.
  • pats12pats12 Member Posts: 1
    Are kumho solus KH25 good tires?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    edited June 2013
    Read what folks say here:
    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Solus+KH25

    They seem to be VERY low-rated, overall.

    What make/model/year car?
  • notgraybeardnotgraybeard Member Posts: 5
    Does the DOT or other agency have rules or guidelines re how many nail holes can be repaired in one tire at one time? IOW, if I have a tire with 4 nails in it, is there a reg that says do not repair that tire?

    If you know of such regs, can you tell how I can find them online?

    I have searched the DOT site and nhtsa.gov, which forwarded me to safercar.gov. safercar.gov has a 100 word statement which appears to be the sum total of the info they have to offer on tire repair. Found little to no help from any of these sites.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,238
    The Rubber Manufacturers Association offers guidelines for proper repair. There doesn't appear to be a limit on the number of repairs per tire, but they are very strict on what is considered the repairable area of the tire, as well as the use of an "umbrella plug" which seals the inner liner.
  • capriracercapriracer Member Posts: 907
    There aren't any laws on the number of repairs that can be done to tires. Just like there aren't any laws about how many repairs can be done to a car.

    But common sense should apply here: 4 nails is a lot of damage to the structure of a tire. You can't expect a tire to perform when it is damaged to that extent. Since unlike cars, where pieces are replaced when damaged, tires rely on "patches" to "bridge" the damage - and every patch increases the risk of failure.

    If one is super sensitive to risk, then every punctured tire should be replaced - but most people aren't that way. Doubling, tripling, quadrupling the risk gets into some serious risk issues.
  • notgraybeardnotgraybeard Member Posts: 5
    Thanks for the link. And thaks to capriracer as well. I also found PUNCTURE REPAIR PROCEDURES at the RMA site and wondered how my local shop could do all of these steps to fix 4 holes for $15. I went back there today and talked to the owner. Very friendly and cooperative, he took me into the shop and showed me what he uses. Basically, for regular small punctures (might have said up to something like a 10 penny nail), he uses Centech patches inside the tire, with no plug and that they were the highest quality and so flexible that they could be used near the sidewall. When I pointed out that RMA stated that a patch without a plug is not a proper repair, he showed me a plug/patch combo (like these at fixtires.com) and pointed to the part of the plug nearest the patch and told me that for a small nail hole, you do not want to drill the hole larger to accommodate this size plug. I also asked him about the danger of water getting in the unplugged hole and rusting the steel bands. I don't remember his exact reply, but clearly, he did not consider this an issue with most small holes.

    NOTE:
    This is a family owned business that has been in our small city [aprx 60,000] for decades. On their google+ page they have 24 reviews and a 4.6 rating with only 2 people having anything negative to say about them (and no complaints about tire repairs gone bad). Many report that these folk are not out to make a shady buck. They charged me $30 to remove/repair 5 nails/screws from 2 tires. The owner had originally told me he might have to charge more.

    nwsalesgroup.com/product/233.aspx "Centech is the most advanced radial tire repair system ever developed. Crown, shoulder or sidewall injuries in passager and truck tires can be repaired with Centech center over injury radial repairs. A special compound and design allow the repair unit to flex and resist heat, assuring a permanent repair." (these are the patches he showed me)
    "*All Centech repair units must be used in conjunction with the proper injury filler material." (does not say if this is Centech's statement or nwsalesgroup.com's)
  • capriracercapriracer Member Posts: 907
    Here's the problem:

    When we talk about tire failures, we're talking about fractions of a percent.

    So when we are talking about tire repair failures, we are talking about percents of a fraction of a percent - and that's so small a number that one individual can NOT perceive it. You have to have access to a larger amount of information to determine what is going on - and guess who has that large of a database? The tire manufacturers who make up the Rubber Manufacturers Association. That's why they published the procedure.

    Not to add dispersions on your local dealer, but it is pretty common for these folks to rely on their own experience and ignore the experience of others.
  • notgraybeardnotgraybeard Member Posts: 5
    You lost me. First, you seem to say the percentages of failure are so infintesimal they are not worth worrying about. Then you say only big entities like RMA would have the real data and so they design these complex procedures that what? - indicates there is a problem... and also, many repair guys just do their own thing?

    I am an old man with fewer brain cells every day, so maybe you could go a little slower... (and thanks).
  • capriracercapriracer Member Posts: 907
    First, let's assume the normal failure rate for tires is 1%. That number is way, way too high, but I'm only using that number to illustrate a point.

    If 10% of the tires are repaired (probably a reason number), and 10% of those repairs cause a failure (that may be high!), then the overall tire failure rate is 0.01%. That's why tire manufacturers are the only ones who would have a database that could makes sense of such a small number.

    Now that may seem like a "Nothing to worry about" type of statistic. but tire failures have been known to cause accidents - and some of those result in some very tragic events. So even a very small number is to be avoided, if possible. This is the other reason why it is important to have this statistic well defined.

    Bottomline: Tire repair failure rates should not add to the overall failure rate. At worst, they should be only slightly worse. (Certainly, they can't be better!)Unfortunately, repaired tires do fail more often than unrepaired tires - hence the warnings about repairs and repair procedures.

    Furtherly unfortunate, most people doing tire repairs never hear about those tragic events - even though they may have been responsible. There is no built-in mechanism for them to be aware of such events.
  • notgraybeardnotgraybeard Member Posts: 5
    For what it is worth:

    Safety Problems Associated With Tires "There is no direct evidence in NHTSA's crash data files that points to defective or sub-standard tires as the cause of a particular crash..." but this page does present (October 2001?) Tire-Related Crash data and information - NHTSA data

    NHTSA Urges Drivers to Check Tires During Hot Weather

    Your Tires May Be A Ticking Time Bomb
    Many vehicles have tires which are old, even recently bought "new" tires
  • capriracercapriracer Member Posts: 907
    The problem with the quoted passage is that it is incomplete. Here's the next sentence:

    ".....The closest data element is "flat tire or blowout". Even in these cases, crash investigators do not record what caused the tire failure....."

    What this means is that the database doesn't have enough information to determine whether or not a tire "defect" was the cause of an accident. More information is needed to fill in the gap.

    But this requires an expert to examine the failed tire.

    However, there are some questions that CAN be answered - and one of those questions concerns if repaired tires fail more often than unrepaired tires. The source of this data is the returns that tire manufacturers get. There is no filtering taking place between repaired and unrepaired tires - just that the tire was returned.
  • notgraybeardnotgraybeard Member Posts: 5
    edited August 2013
    I understand your point. There may be more recent data out there, but I think I have to give this thing a rest. In closing:
    www.rma.org/tire-safety/tire-repair/ "A tire industry study showed that nearly 88 percent of the tire repairs are performed improperly."
    I guess this means that 88% of the repair folks do not incorporate every step in the RMA guidelines.

    My interest in this subject really started at Walmart, from whom we bought the tires + their Road Hazard Warranty. Two tires had lost a lot of air, so I pumped them up and took the car to our local Walmart, expecting them to honor their warranty and fix the tires free if we had a problem. The mechanic said we had 5 nails/screws in one tire, making it "unrepairable." He offered to sell us 4 new tires with a warranty prorated discount. I wasn't too happy at the prospect of having to buy 4 tires (the car is AWD). I complained to the Walmart Tire Department manager and she said they will not fix more than 3 holes per tire and each must be more than 2' apart. I don't mind Walmart having restrictions, but it isn't in the warranty. The store manager has agreed to refund the cost of the warranty. This is a long way of telling you that on their very short warranty it does say, "Repairable punctures will be repaired at no charge using the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) guidelines." Given the 88% stat above, they may the only shop in town that hews to this RMA standard. Oh, well...

    Epilogue: Today, I swept out the gutter (curb) in front of our 2 story condo building - my parking spot and a few of my neighbors - and found about 30 rusty roofing nails that had washed down a drain and deposited themselves there over the past 6 months. Needless to say, there may be more nails yet to make their way to the street and, consequently, a sequel to this epic. Thanks for your interest and help.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,238
    That's a pretty lame road hazard warranty if it won't replace an unrepairable tire.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I agree. The road hazard warranties I've bought (to the tune of around $20/tire, IIRC) will replace a tire that's unrepairable, for any reason, with a new tire on a mileage pro-rated basis.
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,953
    Ditto with the Tires Plus that I use down south here. If the tire is shot and can't be repaired, they prorate a new one and send me on my way. Usually though, they are able to repair the tire and send me on my way. For some reason, my wife and middle girl seem to pick up any nail or piece of metal out there while I've only had it happen once in the last 5 or so years. I insist that all our vehicles have good rubber on them because I hate to get a phone call from one of the girls in a panic because they have a flat...I keep a close eye on things.

    The Sandman :) :sick: :shades:

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • navyguy1990navyguy1990 Member Posts: 71
    Hello,
    I've just purchased an used 2002 Miata LS with about 70,000 miles and the car came with a well worn set of Dunlop Direzza DZ101 tires, and I'm looking to replace them with all-season tires. I've visited Tirerack.com, and there are only two all-season tires came up in the size 205/45/16: Continental Extreme Contact DWS and General G-Max. I'm an avid Michelin tires fan, as I have them on my other three cars, but Michelin do not make this size tires.

    Any recommendation would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,238
    I'm surprised there aren't more choices for the Miata. That said, the Continental Extreme Contact DWS is very highly rated, and I think you'd be pleased with those, even coming from Michelins.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Tire Rack's comparison test with the Contis was quite positive:
    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=165
  • navyguy1990navyguy1990 Member Posts: 71
    Thank you for your help on this.

    Sincerely,
    Navyguy
  • navyguy1990navyguy1990 Member Posts: 71
    Thank you.

    Sincerely,
    Navyguy
  • ap2013ap2013 Member Posts: 3
    Folks, I need your help.

    So far I have received $38000 OTD (With 8.75% Tax & Fees) for 2013 SE with Navigation, Carpet Mats & Cross bar from one dealer in Northern California.

    Do you think its a good deal? If not then what will be the best number I can offer to dealer.

    Thanks
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Probably get responses in the highlander threads.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hi ap2013,

    Yep, you're posting in the wrong place. You'll get much quicker responses by posting here:

    Toyota Highland Prices Paid and Buying Experience
  • ap2013ap2013 Member Posts: 3
    Ok. Thanks for the reply.
  • carattorneycarattorney Member Posts: 62
    edited October 2013
    -I Purchased 4 General Altimax Tires from Tirerack in May of 2012 for my Honda Fit.
    -They currently have 14,000 miles on them.
    -They ride great at 32-35 PSI
    -Never a Puncture or Problem.
    -Tires have been rotated, even wear, no indication of any alignment problems.

    -This week I noticed that the right rear tire had a bulge at the sidewall. It's about the circumference of a quarter+ midway between the rim and tread.
    -The left front tire has a similar bulge but it does not protrude as much.
    -The right front has a similar bulge but does not protrude very much.
    -Left rear has a ripple, but not noticeable without running your finger around the sidewall.

    (I have excellent photos of the bulge, I guess they can't be posted here, but if anyone wants to see, please email your address and I will send them.)

    -2 Days Ago--I Called Tirerack. The representative's immediate response was, "You hit something, it could blow...order a new tire." When I pointed out that it effected 2 others tires--seems too much of a coincidence--she then said, "OK, send photos and I will have a Tire Tech look at them and render an opinion within 24 hours." Never heard back within 24 hours and I will follow up on Monday.

    -Friday (Yesterday) Stopped in at America's Tire Company (A General Tire Dealer here). Representative came right out to inspect the tire.
    -He looked at Right Rear one--saw the Bulge and declared immediately: "You hit something, let me order a new tire for you now,"... and started writing up an order on his clipboard. But when I then pointed out to him that it effected 2 other tires, he put his board down, got on the ground, put his hands on both the outside bulge and the area opposite it on the inside of the tire.. He then said, "This is from the factory, there are bulges on both sides of the tire in the same place. That indicates to me that it's from the manufacturing and shipping process, when they tie the tires up...it's nothing to be concerned about." He then checked the other tire with the bulge, both sides, and had me feel the bulges on both sides.

    I have Never in my years with cars--and I check my tires--have ever seen a bulge in a tire sidewall--especially coming out at a low 14,000 miles with lot's of tread left. :mad:

    Has anyone ever seen this?, or heard about this, or have any constructive input?

    To me the tires look unsafe because I don't like to see an area on a sidewall that is bulging out. I am not used to that on tires. It seem like defective tires??

    I have not taken this up on the phone with General Tire yet--I may next week.

    I appreciate you taking the time to provide your expertise or experience.

    And again, would be happy to email photos.

    Thank you very much. :)
  • capriracercapriracer Member Posts: 907
    Car Attorney, (OK, that scares me right there!)

    Google "tire indentations" or undulations or bulges . Those photos should explain the causes - and many are road hazard related. Many are also normal factory variations.

    But true factory defects will be there right from the gitgo. They won't magically show up 18 months (and 14K) later. So it's likely that this isn't a factory defect.

    Second, you should post the photos on an image sharing website, like photobucket. That way you don't have to email them to everyone.

    But if you want, my email address is: Barry@barrystiretech.com
  • carattorneycarattorney Member Posts: 62
    Barry, I want to first thank you for telling me about Photobucket--I just uploaded the tire photos at:

    http://s813.photobucket.com/user/photobucketesq/library/General%20Tire%20Altimax- %20HP%20Bulge

    Hope that the link works, and I did this correctly.

    All these photos are of just one of the tires.

    There is a bulge at the same spot on the inside of the tire pictured, as well as another tire that we checked yesterday. We did not examine the inside of the 3rd tire with a bulge.

    I will also google as you indicated this weekend, when I can clear an hour or so. Thanks for this idea too.

    David
  • capriracercapriracer Member Posts: 907
    Thanks for the photos.

    First, taking a photo of the same tire many times does indeed help clarify what is going on with that particular tire, but it doesn't help us understand what is going on with the other ones.

    Nevertheless, you do indeed have a bulge and its appearance is being aggravated by the presence of an indentation immediately adjacent to it. That combination is making it look a ton worse than it really is. If I factor out that indentation, I think the tire is OK. Marginally so, but just within acceptable.

    And the bulge could have been caused by hitting an object and breaking the ply cords. The fact that it is on both sides, doesn't change the possibility. But I honestly don't think that is the case here.

    It would be worthwhile to call General's 800 number and see what they will do. But I wouldn't be too concerned about the safety aspect if they don't assist in some way. That bulge is not very large and not likely to cause any issue.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited October 2013
    If he had hit something wider than the width of the tire, perpendicular to the tire tread (like a piece of railroad track) - couldn't that explain similar damage to both sidewalls at the same location circumferentially around the tire?
  • carattorneycarattorney Member Posts: 62
    Thanks for having a look at the photos, and your opinion.

    If it was just one tire--I may have let it rest.

    Because 3 tires are effected similarly, (and the forth tire with a slight finger feel indentation but no bulging showing yet), I am going to push this with both Tirerack and General Tire soon.
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