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I haven't measure it yet with the new tires on mine.
Also on indy suspension vehicles that min. ground clearance # will change as the springs sag, on a sold axle vehcile that # is static.
Just like the Outback has more clearance than a Ford Explorer doesn't mean that it necessarily truely has more ground clearance.
-mike
-mike
1. Bulletproof reliability long term
2. 19 - 20 mpg on the highway using regular gas
3. A center differential
4. Towing capacity of 5000 lbs.
5. A reasonably powerful engine
6. A body on frame design with a good ground clearance for driving off road (which I do)
7. A power rear window which, in combination with a sunroof, creates a quasi-convertible
8. A small enough body to be maneuverable in tight quarters
9. Seating for 4/5
Now the 4-runner is a little cramped but my real issue with it has been headroom. I have a very tall trunk and love sunroofs. (I'm a professional motorcyclist and like to be as un-enclosed as possible when I'm driving). There are some ways around the 4runner headroom issue but none of them is simple.
The other option would be a Yukon but the gas mileage isn't great and its more mass than I need right now. I had a 1999 Suburban which was a great truck overall but much bigger than I need for my current uses. We've also owned (or still own) various other 4WD/AWDs including the old Subaru GL and the newer Legacy, a Toyota Previa SC AWD, a Toyota Rav-4, a Jimmy, etc.
So...the Trooper. First of all I hadn't realized how reliable this truck is until I started researching. From my list it matches with 1,3,4,5,6,8 and 9. If I can get 18mpg from it on highways and backroads, that would be close to the 4runner mpg. The rear window doesn't open like the runner but I do love that giant sunroof.
I drove a 2001 "S" for about an hour today (highway, backroads, steep and rough dirt roads) and it reminded me of the Land Cruiser more than any other vehicle has. The greenhouse is so tall and the whole rig feels solid and spacious. It also has character. The TOD system worked well on the dirt roads except that there were times when I wished it was feeding more power to the front wheels - but overall it was good. Some questions:
On dirt and mixed gravel, the rear end came around too easily even with very moderate speed and gentle throttle. Either the rear end is light (I hope not) or the stock tires are awful in the dirt (they might have been Duellers?). I suspect the tires and would love feedback. To be specific: driving up a steep hill of packed dirt and gravel at about 30 mph under light throttle (with TOD on and giving the rear wheels most of the power), the rear end easily lost traction over bumps and slid to the side. Tires?
Next...the dreaded roll-over issue. I'm willing to concede that CU may have pushed that truck too hard in its testing but the debate does still give me a pause. Now I've owned and driven several SUVs as well as our one-ton van and I'm aware that they're not sports cars. That said, some are a lot tippier than others. Being as honest as you can be folks, what has your experience been with the Trooper and stability?
I know that many have refuted the CU tests as BS and that the jury found them to have misrepresented some of the facts but...is there an issue here at all beyond the limitations all SUVs have? Anecdotes and comparisons to the Yukon/Cruiser/4Runner welcome. I'd love to have a chance to drive a Trooper with outriggers on a track to answer this for myself...
To the best of my knowledge, LS models from 1998 -2002 would be about the same truck. Any years to avoid or seek out? Given the depreciation hit these trucks unfortunately take, it seems that a used one is the best deal. Any thoughts?
I've gone through the first 1000 or so posts and it seems that the only maintenance issue seems to be some oil usage. Even brake pads seems to last on these trucks. Did I miss something or are they really that trouble-free? I'd like to put 100,000 ++ on my next SUV.
Thanks,
Sean Reid
Rockingham, Vermont
I think the rear kicks out because it gets a lot more power first, with the right throttle input the TOD can pull you out of a corner. If you floor it, you can do donuts. I haven't had issue with traction with TOD, but have played around and can pop the end out if you want. Light is not how I think of this truck.
Rollover...I don't think so. I don't corner it hard, but have made emergency maneuvers and had no issue. However it does drive like a truck with some body roll. Most of the roll is due to the suspension that is designed for maximum wheel travel while off-roading. Some of us have added shocks and a few aftermarket products to stiffen the more highway biased suspension, which adds a lot of value.
Seating is good. The rear seat is much bigger and comfortable than the 4runner in my opinion. I also really like a lot of the interior. Not super-luxurious, but the durable plastics don't break and are very functional.
I really like mine. The only dislike of mine is the amount of road noise on the highway, not terrible, but enough so that you have to turn up the radio, and then you cannot heat the person in the back seat.
o Rollover...
If you drive it like a sports car, you'll roll it. With that said, I've driven my very very hard and done some whacky manuvers and never felt like it was going to roll. I've since upgraded the suspension inexpensively: 5-way Adjustable shocks, coil springs, poly bushings on the sway bars, pirellis scorpion ATs (a few sizes larger) and it handles better now.
o Milage...
I get 14-18 depenging on the terrain (hills, highway, etc) but it doesn't sip fuel
o Dirt Road...
See the shocks, and springs above, they will help with this, punching the gas harder in TOD helps a lot, by transferring the power to the front and pulling you around dirt turns.
o Moonroof...
My favorite feature, largest of ANY Suv sold with stock moonroofs.
o Big windows...
Almost a tour-bus like ride and view, friends jokingly call mine the Greyhound Bus. Mine is quiet even on the highway and I have almost 40K miles, still as tight as day 1.
oTowing...
Regularly tow a 3500lb boat trailer and a 5300lb car-trailer, handles both well the 5300lb trailer doesn't let me get quite the acceleration that I normally have but it is more than adequet even in the mts.
Check out http://isuzu-suvs.com for pics of my trooper and http://isuzu-suvs.com/events for tons of pics of off-roading Troopers.
-mike
PS: I've taken mine AIRBORNE (with video on my website to prove it) and still didn't roll it!
I have posted here before several times, so you may have seen some of my Trooper opinion already.
I have a '96 Trooper S PEP currently at 104,000 miles. It is my wifes daily kid hauler, summertime Boat tower, and 4WD insurance policy when we go up to the mountians in winter.
1. Bulletproof reliability long term
So far fantastic reliability. The most reliable, cheapest to run vehicle I have ever owned was a '93 Nissan PU. I ran it for about 100k on essentially nothing but oil changes. It never let me down. The Trooper has never let me down, but does recieve maintenance "by the book" which aint cheap. But nothing has failed, except a transfer case seal at 97k miles ($300).
2. 19 - 20 mpg on the highway using regular gas
My lead foot wife gets 14-15 Mpg around town. If I drive it I get closer to 16. Have gotten 18 on trips.
3. A center differential
4. Towing capacity of 5000 lbs.
I don't know about that. I tow my approx. 3000lb 18" boat through the CA/AZ desert with the air on at 65 Mph and pass trucks with ease. Nothing but a hitch and electrical added.
5. A reasonably powerful engine
Depends on your definition of reasonable. Mine is only maybe 215 hp? My other two cars are underpowered too though, so it feels pretty strong in comparison
6. A body on frame design with a good ground clearance for driving off road (which I do)
7. A power rear window which, in combination with a sunroof, creates a quasi-convertible
I love the 60-40 split.
8. A small enough body to be maneuverable in tight quarters.
It really drives nicely for its size.
9. Seating for 4/5
As much rear seat legroom as an S Class!
The CU Rollover is a bunch of BS. On occasion I throw it around on off ramps/on ramps, it responds predictably. I have nice Edelbrock shocks and Kumho tires which make it ride nicely. It has never scared me in the least. It is a truck though, not a BMW X5!
I highly recommend the Trooper over the 4Runner. Now, mind you, either of these vehicles is based on 10 year old technology, not cutting edge. But the Trooper rocks!
I will truely be sad when I trade it in. I might trade it in/sell it at 120k, the water pump and timing belt will be expensive and a 6 year old Trooper with 120k miles is only worth about $5k.
We'll see.
Get the Trooper.
Get the Trooper, you'll love it.
There is a difference between the 4Runner's part-time 4wd system and the TOD in the Trooper. The 4Runner has a locked center-diff. only that doesn't allow usage on dry surfaces, unlike the TOD. The Trooper before 97, IIRC (I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong), came with both an automatic trans and the part-time system like the 4Runner. Otherwise you get the TOD and an automatic in newer years. With the TOD, you still get the locked center-diff in low-range 4WD.
-mike
At 6'4", room is an interesting topic. Trooper is most comfortable for me. True seating for 5 with plenty of shoulder room and head-room. Do the front seats in the 4Runner still lay close to the floor requiring a legs-straight-out position instead of the Trooper's more correct and true "seated" with knees bent positioning? And the rear seats with the knees "up" because the floor is too-close to the seat bottom?
Next thing you know, CR will start taking Isuzu ads.
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Regarding the 4-runner system...
In 1999 and 2000 the limited model 4runners came with an optional center differential which, if I recall, uses a viscous coupling to determine the power split between the front and rear wheels. With this option, the truck can be used in 2WD, 4WD(center diff locked) or AWD. I've owned several part-time 4WDs as well as AWDs. I find that the big advantage of AWD is the ability to leave the system engaged on mixed pavemment surfaces - dry turning to ice turning to snow turning to dry, etc. I also find that a paved road in the rain does not have enough slip to use P/T 4 wd in. The 1999 and 2000 runners can also be had with a locking rear diff.
In 2001, Toyota introduced a system on the 4Runner which is shared with the newer 100 series Land Cruiser and the Seq...(can't seem to spell this morning). With this system, the front and rear diffs are open, if I recall correctly. The vehicle skid control/traction control system will selectively brake any individual wheel as needed.
This also seems to eliminate the need for a locking diff. With an open diff, one would expect the wheel without traction to spin while the opposite wheel gets little or no power. The VSC/TC system, however, effectively fools the open diff by braking the spinning wheel (only) and thus tricking the open diff into sending power to the opposite wheel. It's a darn clever system and seems to work very well according to all reports I've heard.
None of that technology, alas, solves my headroom challenges with the 4-runner. So, getting back to the Trooper. I have a lot more expertise with two wheels than four but I do drive a lot of dirt roads under all kinds of conditions. This is my best guess about what is happening with the Trooper on an uphill dirt road: The TOD senses that the rear wheels have been loaded (given that the truck is headed uphill and its effective cg has shifted rearward) and thus sends most of the power to the rear wheels. When the rear end chatters over a bumpy surface, the stock tires aren't grabbing very well when they return to earth and are getting 85% of the power without having much grip on the road. So, the truck rear end kicks out. I'm hoping this is just a tire issue (and of course tires can make a huge difference). To be sure, the rear end on the Trooper I drove yesterday came out much too easily with the stock tires.
Appreciate the thoughts and feedback, please keep it coming.
Sean Reid
Rockingham, Vermont
-mike
Sean Reid
Rockingham, Vermont
Overall, it sounds like the Trooper is a great fit for your criteria and needs.
We have a 98 Trooper w/63,xxx miles. Bought from Isuzu dealer at 1 year old and 7k miles. It was a corporate Isuzu vehicle. Apparently, Isuzu auctions these year-old Troopers at Isuzu dealer-only auctions, and then dealers sell them for $8-10k below original MSRP, which is approximately $1-3k below the price a smart buyer could get on a brand new one.
This is a great way to get a nearly new Trooper for a less-than-new price. Also, Isuzu considered that we had bought a new Trooper: since the 'original' owner was Isuzu USA, the vehicle had never been titled. I'm not sure, but the 10yr/120k powertrain warranty might still be in effect if you went this route.
Previously, we had a 96 Trooper for a year. Bought used at 27k miles, was totaled at 50k miles. Was very sad to see it go. While we had it, it lived up to the high Trooper reliability standards.
To hit the items on your list about which I have experience/opinion:
1. Bulletproof reliability long term - agree. Our 98 has had very few repairs. We did have a (cracked?) head gasket problem just before the 60k powertrain warranty expired. I think that one is fairly common for the newer 3.5L Troopers (3.5L started in '98, but you already knew that). Also a couple other minor hardware issues: e.g. in-dash CD changer was replaced (a fairly common problem, I think), my mom broke the right rear interior door handle
and it wouldn't open, etc. As for routine maintenance, I've minimized those costs by 1) ignoring what I feel are the unimportant dealer 'checks' that comprise the majority of the scheduled maintenance; 2) doing some stuff myself (mostly fluid changes); and 3) having other things (e.g. tire rotations) done at non-dealer shops.
2. 19 - 20 mpg on the highway using regular gas - our 98 is rated 15 mpg city, 19 highway. Our fuel economy has been better than many folks on this board. Overall we get around 16.5 mpg. That is about 70% city, 30% highway driving. Our highway mileage is 18-19 mpg at an average speed between 70 and 75 mph. Based on our experience, if you drove 60 mph, you'd probably get 20 mpg. At 65, probably 19-19.5. At 70, 18.5-19. At 75, 17.5-18.5. Above 75 mph-- ask paisan, because my wife and I don't drive our Trooper that fast!
3. A center differential
4. Towing capacity of 5000 lbs.
5. A reasonably powerful engine - to me, the 215 hp 3.5L V6 is quite peppy. We don't use the Power transmission mode because I think the truck is peppy enough without it.
6. A body on frame design with a good ground clearance for driving off road (which I do)
7. A power rear window which, in combination with a sunroof, creates a quasi-convertible
8. A small enough body to be maneuverable in tight quarters
9. Seating for 4/5 - the passenger room is unmatched in anything smaller than the Expedition/Tahoe class, in my opinion. The rear seat is just huge. Many folks who try out the Trooper complain about the seats being too firm, but the smart consumer knows that "too firm" on the test drive often translates into "great support" over the long haul,
while "nice and soft" translates into "insufficient support."
Rollover
I'm a Consumer Reports fan and longtime subscriber. But the Trooper rollover issue is total bunk. It's a truck, it's tall, and it will tip over if you drive it recklessly. It may even tip more easily than a Pathfinder, Blazer, or other shorter wider SUV. But in everyday driving, our stock 98 Troop and our previous 96 Troop feel solid and steady.
When our 96 was totaled, a Caddy ran a red light, from my left side. As he came through the intersection around 40-45 mph, I was doing 50-55 mph. I hit the brakes and swerved left, trying to cut in behind him and let him squeak through the intersection just in front of the Trooper. Unfortunately, I still hit the guy (98 Seville). But I had made a quick
swerve at moderately high speed. #1, I wasn't nervous to make this sort of split-second maneuver in the Trooper. #2, in retrospect the vehicle seemed totally fine while doing this. No giant leaning or tippiness.
As others have noted, you can stiffen up the handling with some easy and cheap sway bar bushing mods. I haven't bothered yet because I don't think the handling in our 98 is a problem.
If you want the Torque on Demand system, be aware of this: it requires automatic transmission. Also, in the 98 model year, it required the Performance Package. Starting in '99, all auto trans Troopers came standard with TOD (until the 2WD Troopers were rolled out-- in 2000 model year?).
There are other minor equipment differences from year to year. If these things are important to you, let us know and we'll tell you what was standard, what was optional, and when.
MY99: TOD on all AT vehicles
MY00: TOD on all AT vehicles w/4wd, also added grade logic on ATs
MY01: TOD on all AT vehicles w/4wd, also added grade logic on ATs
MY02: TOD on all AT vehicles w/4wd except "S" models, also added grade logic on ATs
-mike
All cars that are in the "awd" class carry the "do not tow with 2 wheels on the ground" warning.
-mike
$100 for the diffys is not bad! Figured they'd be like $80/each.
-mike
-mike
- bigger volume - and green house affect - sun roof heaven`
- has 4 whell disc brakes - no rear drums here
- rear seat backs recline
- if you flip the rear seats forward to make more storage room you don't have to remove the head rests
- bigger engine 210 hp vs 186
- better seats - front seats have just the right amount of side bolster - not too much
- powered driver and front passenger seats
- heated seats - heated mirrors
- 6 disc in dash stereo - good sounding too
- 10 yr/120 kmile warranty
- $8K discount off of MRP
- and almost forgot - the blimmy thing down shifts automatically when going down hill
- what it don't have is a luggage rack - but you can add one
- cup holders suck but they work for most occassions
- no transmission dip stick - I don't like this - I lost a transmission once that blew out fluid.
- stick on some gas shocks and the poly sway bar bushings and the thing handles like a gem.
and best of all - you will never see a 2003 Trooper - you will be styling forever.
Get the Trooper - be one of the guys on this board
Although a shop would probably install it pretty cheap for yah.
-mike
I'm gonna get an ARB for mine eventually, but probably going to buy an SVX first.
-mike
The 2003 4Runner is likely to also fit my needs to a tee (taller greenhouse, more space, third row seat, etc.) but it won't be out until September and I'd like to get something sooner.
I wonder if I shouldn't just find a Trooper for $15,000 and drive it all summer. Then in September I could keep it or go for the new Runner. Maybe I'll join the gang that's fallen in love with these Troopers and then will drive it into the ground at 250,000 miles. I do also like the character the vehicle has, it's definitely a bit out of the mainstream and I enjoy cars and bikes that have a personality. Looks like a 1998 or 1999 would be my best bet (gotta have that giant sunroof).
Thanks
You probably can find an 00 for around 15K if you look hard. Definitely keep us in the loop!
-mike
-mike
And that sunroof....heck, a year ago I even thought about getting a Jeep Wrangler (which is not in the running) just to have a 4WD convertible. A massive sunroof is a good substitute.
Cheers,
Sean
-mike
Go with the Trooper. You definately won't regret it!!!
What brand/model of shock would you reccommend for someone who does NYC/Philly driving with alot of interstate thrown in? I do not off-road but I do pile up the miles.
Personally, the improvements in the 2000+ Troopers aren't extremely important to me, so I'd say anything from '98 and up would be fine.
Beware that factory moonroof-equipped Troopers don't grow on trees. My sense is that Isuzu sells far more base S models than LS (aka Performance Package in earlier editions) or Limited (aka Luxury Package) models, and the factory moonroof isn't available on the plain S models.
For a 3rd row seat, try www.littlepassengerseats.com. This is a more readily available, though less functional, alternative to the non-U.S. factory third row seat.
3rd row for Sean: He needs to carry luggage and just needs the 3rd row to run workers to dinner/hotel etc. So my guess is that he'd really want the fold-up OEM ones. I really need to look into this deeper and see if we can procure some from outside the US.
shocks for Beer: I live in NYC and love my Rancho 9000s. I feel they are well worth it even if you don't off-road. 99% of my driving is on-road and I keep them dialed in @ 4 in the front and 3 in the rear out of 5+ settings. When my dad drives it I crank it down to about 3f 2r and this gives it a nice smooth ride. For towing I do 4/5+ and offroading 5+/5+ If it was going to be 100% on-road I'd probably go for the very expensive Bilstiens but not sure if they are worth the extra $$$$. The Ranchos are buy 3 get one free right now I think.
-mike
Can anyone tell me if Huntley and Brinkley are still together? ;-)
tidester
Host
SUVs
-mike
Can anyone vouch for littlepassengerseat products? Has anyone purchased from them?
If we could get a mass buy going, I would coordinate the activities and see if we could get the price down. Throw some input in and let me know.
Chad
-mike
That said, I'm interested in getting the real deal if the Australia plan can work out. Any Aussies on this list? There were a bunch on the LC list.
These forums are too much fun, how does anybody get any work done?
sean
I have a 99 Trooper and can not insert any cd's
into the the In-Dash changer. Has anyone else experinced this problem?
That fold up seat for little passengers doesn't have head restraints IIRC, they aren't even optional.
-mike