Isuzu Trooper

troop2shos · June 2003

They pushed the tranny fluid through the lines & torque converter without the engine running?
IRRC, the small pump in the flush machines are low pressure to draw in new fluid feeding into the suction side & out discharge of the tranny cooler for the fluid exchange.

bluedevils · June 2003

boxtrooper, I'm surprised to hear your insurance company offer you so low on your truck. A few years back, Allstate paid us over $17k when our '96 Trooper was totaled. It amounted to full retail value at the time, which was probably $1-2k higher than replacement cost had I shopped for another one. Heck, we paid $15,500 for the truck and drove it almost a year and 25k miles! So they paid us almost $2k more than we bought the truck for.

I was nervous about getting shorted on the payout, but was very pleased that Allstate went above and beyond on the value and I did not need to negotiate at all.

bluedevils · June 2003

Just catching up on the recent discussions.

Mobil 1 synthetic did NOT improve (read: reduce) the consumption rate on our '98 Trooper. I switched to Mobil 1 around 50k miles, ran it for 15-20k miles, then switched back to dino. Perhaps the Mobil 1 was unable to reduce the consumption due to the dino oil being used in the first 50k miles and getting the engine all dirty?

Unfortunately, I did not have the opportunity to break in our Trooper myself. It was a corporate vehicle and had 7k miles when we bought it. Then again, opinions seem to be divided on which is a better break-in approach - drive vehicle hard, or drive vehicle soft - so it may not have mattered.

Once the cost of the new shocks is behind us, I may start throwing a little money at oil consumption remedies (EGR valve cleaning, PCV replacement, Auto-RX treatment, etc.).

celcis · June 2003

I recently had my transmission replaced @ 76k miles on my '00 Trooper LS. I too had the tranny flushed in Dec '02; then six months later it started slipping. The 10/120k warranty covered it.

Question: Does anyone have this occur??? When accelarting the Trooper, between 40mph and 50 mph you get a noticeable vibration from the rear...similar to a hesitation. The tires are balanced. Could this be an axle indexing problem?

amigo_john · June 2003

You have to flush them every 30k. If you try to flush anything for the first time with more than 60k on it, you are asking for trouble. I have a good friend who has owned a Precision Tune since 97 and he WILL NOT flush a high mileage transmission unless he has proof that it has been flushed on a regular basis.

breakor · June 2003

I'm guessing tires. It could be they are not correctly balanced. Many people have reported trouble finding a shop that really knows how to balance tires. Could also be a bent rim or out of round tire. Could also be your u-joints.

I too have read numerous posts about the dangers of changing fluids on a severly neglected tranny.

sbcooke · June 2003

I have had my tranny flushed at 15K and 33K. Just last Saturday. I notice smoother shifts since then. I have had the flush performed because I spend a lot of time offroad and more than one mechanic recommended a flush over a fluid change if I go offroad. Not only to clean foreign elements but to be sure that any burnt fluid is pushed out. I am not sure "flush" is the right term, but they pump fluid out and through the system before a refill. About $100 for the procedure.

I don't think a flush is a bad idea, however the problems listed above are concerning and interesting? I wonder if it has to do with performing a flush on a trans that hasn't had regular maintenance until high mileage?

There is also the chance that the slippage was caused by something else and/or really didn't require a replacement/rebuild but that the dealer gave you the shaft? I am suspect of Isuzu support and service these days.

tkevinblanc · June 2003

You know a Precision Tune guy with a conscience? :0)

chymer · June 2003

Thanks to everyone that has responded so quickly to yesterday's message! My father bought his Trooper used with about 30K. I doubt the previous owner had the fluids flushed and I know my dad hadn't had the transmission fluid flushed prior to this maintenance service. Being as the dealership should be the expert on Isuzu service, they should know the things you are all telling me and opted to not perform this power flush; unless, of course, they wanted to rebuild the transmission 4K later. All of this really helps. If my dad can get enough evidence, he plans on taking them to court. All information is SOOOOO appreciated!!! Thank you!!

chymer · June 2003

I wonder if your Precision Tune friend would be willing to put anything in writing regarding flushing fluids at high mileage. What do you think? :-)

raydahs · June 2003

For those who haven't seen one before, here's a PDF that explains how it works.
http://www.oilchangeguys.com/BilsteinATFMachineAdSheetRevised.pdf

breakor · June 2003

Do a Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=U- TF-8&q=transmission+fluid+service+high+mileage+&btnG=Goog- le+Search) and you will find plenty of posts warning of the problems of only flushing neglected trannies.

The problem seems to be that accumulated junk can be loosened and either plug up the filter or some vital tranny passage. Many sites claim that you should ALWAYS pull the filter when replacing fluid in a neglected tranny. That could be your father's argument as to what the dealer did wrong. Especially when he apparently asked for a new filter in the first place.

cracovian · June 2003

You must really be a super nice guy or love that person's insurance co... I would take that $5300, ask them for another fifty K (at least) to cover my family's medical expenses, pain and suffering, and then see how their initial "offer" changes.

boxtrooper · June 2003

that will just make insurance more expensive for all of us.

boxtrooper · June 2003

2002 Trooper LS (no moonroof) 19024 miles on the odometer, I just put the last 5 of those miles on it at lunch.
..
$18000 plus around $500 tax tags etc..Gets:
gray Trooper, nearly no scratches, no underbody rust, clean CarFax record, real smooth engine, TOD, one scuff under the rear left bumper corner and the hard tire cover is badly scratched and one of the five tires is not a match to the remaining original 684's.. They were asking $21000 I offered $18000 they said OK, is this a good deal?
..
Should I be worried about this having been a rental vehicle? Anything special to look for because it was a rental?
..
I test drove another 2002 just before this one at a different dealer and it needed shocks and was very scratchy had 3 tires of one type and 2 tires of another type, twice as many miles and they were asking more ($19000) for it.

sbcooke · June 2003

It sounds like there is more room for negotiation. I would shop a little more since it probably isn't going to be sold quickly. Then come back to them and offer $17K.

I think a rental could be pot-luck. Poor maintenance, but at 19K miles it shouldn't be too out of spec. Check 4wd operation...either it was abused...or never used at all. Both of which could cause a problem.

boxtrooper · June 2003

I told them that it is an S and gave the Edmunds price for it of $16394 and they came down to $17250 as their final offer.
..
Meanwhile Kelly Blue Bood http://www.kbb.com says the same 2002 Trooper S is worth $19400. So I'll take the average of the two prices $17897, and consider the $17250 price decent enough to go ahead.
..
Now to get the wife along for the ride on this one. Where to come up with $12000 to add to the insurance totaler's payoff to make up the $17250? I hope to own this one by lunch time 6/26/03.

stever · June 2003

"Live by the book, die by the book."

Take the book numbers (even ours) with the usual grain of salt. What is the "Kelley Blue Book" Price?

Wouldn't hurt to ask the dealers over in Real-World Trade-In Values for their two cents either.

Good luck with lunch tomorrow!

Steve, Host

bluedevils · June 2003

Our '98 Trooper's first transmission 'service' was a drain and fill along with a filter change at approx. 65k miles. The truck is at 86k now, and I was thinking of having a flush/fluid exchange/whatever done sometime in the next few thousand miles. Sounds like the consensus is that this might be a bad idea?

sbcooke · June 2003

I think the jury is still out. It is concerning to read about 1 person who had an issue with this service (especially since I had this just done). Why don't you ask the shop/mechanic who is going to do the work and get their thoughts? I think pumping all the fluid out rather than just doing a drain and fill sounds much better.

I would like to know more about what caused the slipping in the example yesterday? Blown gasket? Low fluid? Worn gears, etc. Worn gears doesn't happen overnight. A gasket blowing due to pressurizing the trans is a possible, but then there should be some warning signs (A/T Temp light, fluid on the driveway?).

sbcooke · June 2003

Forget transmission problems...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030626/161/4i- - - c1w.html&e=14

raydahs · June 2003

Has anyone ever tried these guys, if not who have you used?
They quoted me $95.00 for ATF exchange.
http://www.vioc.com/serv_suv.asp

chymer · June 2003

I don't have the exact reason for failure of my father's transmission. I told him to ask the mechanic that question and get specifics -- not just "your transmission was bad". I believe that 3rd gear was worn. Prior to the flushing though, he had no slipping, no leaks, etc.

Whoever is considering flushing, with all the research I've been doing, DO NOT FLUSH!! Drain and fill but never flush, especially higher mileage vehicles.

serrano · June 2003

I don't see how a "flush" is any different than a drain and fill, other than more of the old fluid gets replaced during a fluid exchange procedure. The end state is the same--the transmission has new fluid. Am I missing something here?

beer47 · June 2003

@45K and I am having it done again Monday AM @ 95K. I do not fear a thing with this procedure. Full speed ahead!

sbcooke · June 2003

I did some research on the web today and found some conflicting reports. From what I found a typical drain and fill only replaces 1/3 to 1/2 the fluid in the system. The only way to get change it all seems to be via flushing or pumping out all of the fluid.

Most of the information seemed positive. I also read that flushing doesn't clean out the pan or filter...and that it is recommended at some point to drop the pan to clean it and change the filter. Perhaps higher mileage vehicles are more prone to having sludge like stuff that could get dislodged during a flush and eventually cause a problem? So perhaps the required maintenace at around 75K is not only to flush but drop the pan and clean it and filter as well?

sdc2 · June 2003

Are we talking about some kind of power flush? What I had done was more of a fluid swap, new for old, via the cooler lines. Nothing should be stirred up by this kind of procedure...

I had this done at 30K, 28K ago, no problems. will do it again soon at 60K.

serrano · June 2003

I believe that we are talking about a pan drain vs. a fluid exchange. I'm not aware of any other procedure that can be accomplished with the transmission in place.

raydahs · June 2003

Just curious, with a sealed unit (no filler tube) how would you go about getting the fluid back in? In my old Trans-am, I checked the fluid (dip stick and filler tube) with the engine running, in PARK to ensure correct fluid level. It almost seems that Isuzu went with the sealed unit anticipating the trend of fluid exchange in mind. I was also told 4 years ago, that dropping the pan requires taking the cross member off, which was very expensive. Another thing to think about, why did they seal it so you can't add fluid, are these super transmissions? My previous vehicles needed fluid added once in a while.

troop2shos · June 2003

A cleaning agent / flushing pre-fluid is sometimes used to clean the system of deposits / varnish. Some of the varnish when "washed" away (even by/ new fluid) could change tolerances from the build-up within the tranny but not specifically cause a failure. High particulate counts in contaminated fluid or deposits which could have been dislodged will promote wear & cause a problem. Sending the fluid to a lab for analysis may have shed some light on the failure - better yet with a sample check of the old fluid.

chymer · June 2003

Yes, it's a "power flush", not just drained. Fluid is forced into the transmission with pressure. They use a ATF Exchanger. The guy in message #8033 attached a pdf file with information on the Bilstein R-2000. It sounds like it saves tons of time, but I'm voting against it after talking with mechanics and the trouble my dad had. It probably is a great procedure, but I won't be taking that chance.

paisan · June 2003

When we did a drain-fill we got out ~3-4Quarts. That's less than 1/2 of what's in there. When they did a flush of my system the flushed through 30 quarts til it came through the system clean.

The problem is that your AT is essentially a ton of passageways and nooks and crannies, along with your torque converter which holds 2-3quarts itself. So by doing a drain and fill you are only getting the stuff in the pan out.

I did my flush at 50K and will do it again at 70K for sure.

-mike

steelpick · June 2003

My 98 Trooper's voltage meter has always run at a little above the 13..maybe 15 all the time. Yesterday I noticed that while idling it had dipped to where 10 or 11 would be. It sometimes goes back up to the 14 or 15, sometimes just above 13 but has been fluctuating and it never did this before. My dad stuck a voltage meter on the battery and it only read 10.5 volts. Do I have a battery going bad, or an alternator going bad?

Thanks

serrano · June 2003

According to the pdf of the fluid exchanger, the machine replaces fluid at the same rate that it's being pumped out. So it might be under pressure, but no more pressure than it normally is. It seems to be a good process, and I hate to condemn it based on one bad report. I don't see that it's the machine's fault that the transmission failed. Anyway, I will probably give it a shot for all of the reasons stated. If I'm going to shy away from it, I want to know specifically what it does that's bad.

To the guy with the fluctuating voltmeter, I recommend that you go down to any auto parts store and have them put a battery load tester on the battery. You can rule out the battery for no cost in this manner. If the battery is bad, replace it and then observe the meter again.

breakor · June 2003

I replace the ATF in my 1999 using pretty much the procedure outlined in this article - http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/dealers/amsoil/torqueconverter.sh- - - tml

Namely, I use the AT to pump the old fluid out and a hand pump to pump the new fluid back in. I pump in through the return line and at the end pull the fill plug (a downwards facing plug on the bottom of the AT) on a running engine to set the level. I get out about 10qts of used fluid before the fluid turns to a new cherry red. I usually flush through an 11th qt just to be sure. This leaves me the 12th qt. of my 3 gallon purchase. I use this last qt. to routinely swap out used power steering fluid.

FWIW I do my AT fluid changes about every 2-1/2yrs./25k miles. At this point the fluid still looks quite good but it is noticeably darker. No doubt I could much go longer but for the price of 3gallons of ATF and my time I consider this very cheap AT insurance.

boxtrooper · June 2003

You guys are making me affraid to replace my 1995 Trooper 5-speed with a much easier to find automatic Trooper.

paisan · June 2003

On the same notes, of all the 4L30s I know out there (at least 100+) I know of 2 failures total.

-mike

boxtrooper · June 2003

I will be taking ownership tomorrow of a 27K miles 2001 Trooper-S 5-speed 4wd, one owner well cared for etc..
..
Are the front automatic locking hubs on this non-TOD Trooper identical to my 1995?
..
This will be my third Trooper and finally I will have a limited slip differential.
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My 1995 Trooper has the power folding mirrors, the 2001 S has heated, but not folding mirrors, is the wiring already in there and the folding mechanism the same from 1995 to 2002 so I can swap that functionality before the old Trooper goes to salvage yard?
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I have Dueler Revo AT tires with around 10K miles on the 1995 Trooper, and the 2001 has the default new Trooper tires with 27K miles, is it worth swapping those as well? I think yes.
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I am planning on buyng the 1995 Trooper back from the insurance tataling process and selling it myself to a salvage yard that I have already contacted and they are interested in it.
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I am planning on not swapping the OME suspension parts, since they are relatively inexpensive I'll get new OME parts some time.

cracovian · June 2003

Congrats on your new find! I would only like to express a word of caution when it comes to swapping your tires though. If you were pushed rapidly forward (as you described) from 0 to 30MPH and hit another vehicle in the process, those tires (based on my own experience) won't be any good in a long run. Chances are that each one of your tire surfaces were shaved off in a few random spots and even though you might not feel anything now, the "bumps" will get much worse over time (in like 3K miles).

sbcooke · June 2003

Good show...

There is a plate on the firewall in the engine compartment, verify that it has a "G80" listed on it. This is the LSD code I believe.

I think springs and tires are a good idea to swap. If you like the OME springs.

I don't think the mirrors would work...but if they do I would like to try to wire my 1999 S ones up at some point.

Oh yeah...consider new shocks...the stock ones in the most recent years seem to be very soft and spongy...in my opinion.

paisan · June 2003

01 should have an LSD stock.

-mike

cwmoser · June 2003

boxtrooper, regarding buying your totaled Trooper back from Insurance company, I would be interested in how much one has to pay. Might be useful information in case something happens in the future.

I have a 1999 Trooper with Luxury/Performance package and if something like what happened to you happened to me, I would like to keep my Trooper for parts.

BTW, I think I would prefer a 5-speed over the automatic -- how smoothly does the clutch and shifter work?

dmigel · June 2003

We totalled a 96 trooper in April. It was actually borderlined totalled. The front end was crumpled up pretty bad, so I didn't really want to drive it after that, so I persuaded body shop to call it totalled, saying that it needed $8,000 in repairs. Insurance said they would give me $10,000 for it, which was more than fair, and offered to sell it back to me for $500. I probably should have but I wouldn't have had a clue what to do with it.

djweber · June 2003

I have a 99 Trooper and needing new tires. I know the Fortera's are 'less aggressive' than Revos. I am not concerned about off-road but live in Chicago and travel to mountains of WV frequently. So highway performance a concern, but need good snow/ice/wet traction (as opposed to mud, etc. off-road)as well.

Are the Revos quiet enough on the open highway? Are the Forteras sticky enough for fairly severe winter weather?

Any comments appreciated.

djweber · June 2003

I am also looking to replace the OEM shocks on my 99 Trooper. Would really like to get rid of some of the 'squishy' cornerning so replacing all at once at about 50k miles. (Tire blow-out prompted the tire search...orig GY Wrangler AP...was never overwhelmed by them...believe TOD made them passable)

Reading past posts was wondering if any other experiences with KYB Mono Max shocks. They are avail at about $50 apiece from Tirerack which is where I'm getting the tires. Anyone believe Monroe Reflexes clearly superior?...or vice versa? Some mention of Bilsteins but no specific models.

Thanks

sdc2 · June 2003

Try the sway bar bushing replacement as detailed on Mike's website isuzu-suvs.com, I just did it over the weekend and it tightened up the handling a noticable amount. Well worth the $20 investment.

One note though, 1/4" washers did not fit, I had to get 5/16".

amigo_john · June 2003

Just got back from vacation in Gulf Shores, AL. This topic has really stirred things up ;-)

My friend who owns the Precision Tune was the first victim of his own T-Tech flush machine. After getting the machine in, he had his guys flush his Maxima (90k miles). His tranny lasted about a week before dying. $2800 dollars later, he was back on the road. I made the same mistake with a 96 Mazda 626 (84k miles). Seeing that black fluid come out and the pink fluid go in made me think I was adding life to the transmission. It died less than a week after the flush. Fortunately, I had an extended warranty and only had to pay $50 of a $2900 bill. If you get on the program early, (30k 60k 90k 120k), it seems like a good thing to do, but don't try it on a high mileage tranny with no prior flush. The old fluid has had no working detergent or cleaners in it for a long time. The new fluid is full of it and and begins to slowly clean and break loose all of that crud that has built up over time. That would explain why it takes a week or so for it to fail.

The filter change with a few quarts of new fluid doesn't seem to shock a high mileage tranny like the flush does, but like everything else in life, do so at your own risk ;-)

john

boxtrooper · June 2003

The 2001 in 5th gear at 70 MPH, 2700 RPM, 21 MPG.
The 1995 in 5th gear at 70 MPH, 3100 RPM, 19 MPG.
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The seller told me they normally get 21 MPG on highway. So far for me the fuel gage covering the half tank mark after about 230 miles.
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I was also told that there were other offers made to buy my Trooper and the seller kept his word even turned down more money from other buyers to sell it to me. I am very thankful for that.
..
The 2001 has a far quieter and smoother engine, more responsive and a lot more low end torque also.
..
The manual transmission has a crisper feel to shifting, but also the clutch travel is a little longer but the actual engagement happens in less of the clutch pedal travel towards the top. Shifting somehow feels more precise, not easier or harder just significantly different than a 1995.
..
So far I have only driven it home, and there it waits until proper registration documents are complete.

gprodick · June 2003

I've had the Birdgestone Revos on my Trooper for about 7000 miles now. They are incredibly quiet. I would say silent. I know they look pretty aggressive, but somehow they have managed to make them quiet, as well. You can drive down the road with the window open and you'll not here a sound from these tires. I imagine as they wear they will become a little noisier, but for now they are greeeat!

I previously had the Pirelli Scorpions. They were much noisier than the Revos. I never was particularly thrilled with them, and found the snow/ice traction to be marginal, although others on this board have liked them. I haven't had a chance to try the Revos in the snow, yet. They do seem to work very well in the rain.

I'm running 265/75's in a standard load rating. They are not only quiet, but run exceedingly smooth. No shimmy, no shake, nothing. They actually seem to be round. What a concept in a truck tire.

I always had probelms with the Scorpions. They just never were really smooth -always had a little vibration here and there. I had 265/75's in a "C" load rating. When I got the Revos I was stunned by the difference. Going from a "C" load rating to a Standard Load rating may have helped the ride a little - I don't know.

After 7000 miles, I would have to say that I would recommend no other tire than the Revo.

boxtrooper · June 2003

I had them on for a trip up North and had not troubles. I was getting much better traction than a friend's new Suburban on snow over ice over pavement on a steep hill, and he had limited slip while I did not.

Isuzu Trooper

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