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Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It has to be 3 strikes on the same problem, though. If you have 50 problems, but the dealer fixes each in less than 3 attempts, it's not seen as a lemon, at least by MD law.

    -juice
  • flippy1flippy1 Member Posts: 10
    It is 4 repair attempts on the same thing in AZ. So you are right - it can be 50 different thing and the consumer is outta luck. We are mostly suprised that the owner of the dealership - JIM CLICK - didn't bother to respond to our letters addressed directly to him. It is unfortunate that Jeep will spend so much money advertising to sell cars, but won't spend a dime to satisfy the customers they have. Okay, enough for today. Saturday I will be in front of the dealership with a banner if anyone lives in Tucson - stop by!
  • mad0865mad0865 Member Posts: 176
    I'm trying to get this straight. A Tribute, Ford Explorer, Jeep Liberty, a Honda CRV and now a Toyota. You failed to mention what kind of Toyota you currently drive now. Did you go to a Highlander, ForeRunner, etc? Having tried four SUV's (ok, 3 not including the CRV) maybe a 4x4 type of vehicle isn't suited for you? Just curious, not insulting or anything.

    Flippy1: Just a word of advice. You don't have to take your vehicle back to the dealer of purchase. You can take it elsewhere and try your luck there, if the lemon law isn't applicable; 12 incidents in 6 months would have me pretty ticked as well. Maybe an attorney can be of assistance. Good luck.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    3 different SUV's in how much time? did you do any research? test drives before buying? I hope to God you didn't opt for a RAV4!? Please say you didn't....
    Sorry to hear about your Jeep Liberty problems. I agree however every automaker makes its share of lemons. There are plenty of folks out on the net that have had no problems with their Liberties and would have purchased nothing else. I would fight to have Jeep buy your vehicle back under your state lemon law.
  • jafo2001jafo2001 Member Posts: 98
    My motto has always been rent the car for a weekend before you buy it. You can never get a true idea of the car from a 30 minute test drive where it's all new to you and you are listening to the salesman banter and saying "turn left here", "turn right", "now take this left".

    It's more of a driving test than a test drive.

    Recently I was all hot on the Ford Escape after 2 test drives then I rented it for a weekend. Loud car with unconfortable seats. Uh uh.

    Well worth the $70.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    scape2: "I hope to God you didn't opt for a RAV4!? Please say you didn't...."
    I did, and I'm happy with it.

    scape2, did you see this one?
    jafo2001: "Recently I was all hot on the Ford Escape after 2 test drives then I rented it for a weekend. Loud car with unconfortable seats. Uh uh."

    My point: Your mileage may vary.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Lets start new topic? RAV4 vs Escape? what do you say?
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Oh no, not yet another topic! I think this is basically a generic mini-SUV topic so there's no reason that we can't include the RAV4 and CR-V.

    What say you hosts? Change the title to read "Mini-SUV Comparisions"? Oh wait, that won't work cause the vehicle names aren't in the title, making it hard for TH participants to find the topic with Edmund's current limited search function. :-(

    -Frank P.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    making it hard for TH participants to find the topic with Edmund's current limited search function.

    The good news is that (fnially!) we will be getting a real search function. I can't give you a specific date yet but it's COMING! Patience!

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Tidester- Yeah yeah... the check's in the mail... (j/k). You guys do an excellent job of running things and provide a tremendous service. You know us whiney users, nothing will ever satisfy us. ;-)

    -Frank P.
  • whattobuy1whattobuy1 Member Posts: 2
    I am considering a tribute but with some of the posts about the stalling its making me rethink....is this a problem that many are having, has it really been fixed??

    what other problems should i be aware of??

    What else should I consider buying??

    thanks
  • flippy1flippy1 Member Posts: 10
    Well, we finally got a response to our 4 page letter of complaints. DC wrote back 3 sentences amounting to "sorry you have had problems, but we aren't going to do anything about it."

    I would have been embarassed to sign my name to a "customer service" letter like this. PLEASE keep this in mind when you are looking at cars and considering the Liberty
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Mazda will tell you the bugs are worked out, but reliability forecasts are still poor. Only you can decide how much that matters.

    -juice
  • jmlagascajmlagasca Member Posts: 37
    ...that since the MPV will now be carrying the Tribscape v6 if some new MPV owners will suffer the same consequences that some Tribscape owners have been experiencing. In the past I've related the poor reliability due to the fact these cars are being produced out of Ford's Kansas City plant - Ford Contours that came out of the same plant had poor reliability as well. If I remember correctly MPVs undergo final assembly in Osaka, Japan. Then again, the MPV's have a different transmission - 5 speed - bummer.

    BTW, I've got 18k miles on my Trib and no problems in 15 months I've had it at home!
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    Tough to tell....we chose a Santa Fe figuring at least we'd spend less money! Actually, comparing the Trib and Santa Fe side by side (literally), we felt the SF had better build quality overall. It appears some Trib owners are having problems even after the PCM re-program, so that is NOT good news. We had a Trib all lined up and ready to buy (with deposit) about a month ago but backed out on newly-revealed quality concerns. After about 1050 miles on the SF, we love the car, but there was one problem with a throttle position sensor which caused some erratic operation (no stalling though!), but that was quickly fixed. Best wishes on the decision... its tough... I recommend fasting and praying!
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    Hit our first 1000 (of hopefully many thousands of) miles on our Santa Fe. Actually got to ride it in some snow last night. ABS worked fine, neither the quietest nor noisiest ABS I've encountered, but it worked well. Accelerated on the snow-covered roads with confidence with the 4WD. Ride is quiet and smooth. V6 engine is relatively quiet and has adequate power. Interior is nice (in spite of the plastic, I still like the layout a lot). Only one problem, with the throttle position sensor which the dealer fixed quickly, though to be safe, we had it towed there (Roadside assistance did function OK...). The interior has a lot of nice little storage areas. I just needs a tad more legroom but I'm getting used to it. So far, I'd recommend the vehicle - obviously, I'd like to get it up to 10,000 miles before unhesitatingly recommending it! But so far, in spite of the problem with the sensor, its a nice effort here from Hyundai.... definitely worth considering if you are looking at this class vehicle.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    please visit other chat rooms other than Edmunds to calm your fears. "Forecast reliablity is poor"??? where did this data come from? "People still having problems even after PCM reprogram" Where did this data come from? Don't let these people scare you. Do your own research. Go to the NHSTA site look at the recalls and TSB's yourself. The more you search the web the more you will find there are thousands upon thousands of satisfied and happy owners of reliable Escapes/Tributes.. I have over 7K on my Escape XLT V6 4x4 with not ONE PROBLEM. Granted, the initial production of the Escape/Trib was shakey.. Now Ford/Mazda have to dig there way out of this mess because this will stick for many years to come.. These are fine vehicles. When equipped with a V6 nothing can touch them in acceleration, only one SUV (Jeep Liberty) can out tow the Escape/Trib. Take one out on a long test drive, heck even rent one!
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    whattobuy... renting may be a good idea if you have the time and money...it is a big investment, so spending some $$$ up front to save headaches may be a good idea. I had a way of comparing my two finalists side by side on a test drive and parked right next to each other.... quite revealing....

    scape2... the data came from real consumers posting to the "Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute problems" board (which now has over 1200 posts, by the way, and problems keep cropping up). The NHTSA site has 15 distinct posted Consumer Complaints for the 2002 Trib and even more for the 2002 Escape. NONE for the CRV... ONE for the Santa Fe.... Four or five for the Outback.... Yes the Tribscape sells greater volumes, but the problem counts represent a higher proportion of the Tribscape compared to the other vehicles, illustrating that buying a Tribscape incurs a higher risk of getting a poor quality vehicle. I know you have had no problems with yours, but your constant defense of this vehicle in light of what has been posted the NHTSA and to this web site (and others.. check out the Yahoo boards on Mazda, for example), seems unusual... unless your a dealer! ;-)
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    But many are duplicate, many are positive defenses of the vehicle. Also there is no way to check the veracity of any of them. I could conceivably post all sorts of problems on vehicles I don't even own, there is no way to check. With access to multiple computers I could have multiple user ID's, which would further muddy the issue. The plain truth is there is still a very good chance of having a positive ownership experience with the Escape/Tribute, much better than havin a negative experience.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    You make some good points.
    Yes, a good chance of having a positive experience.

    But as good a chance as the competition offers?
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I have in the past owned at least 6 vehicles that CR trashed, that had reputations of being questionably reliable. I enjoyed those vehicles as much or more than some of the "more reliable" vehicles I had purchased. In my mind a positive experience has more to do with how much I enjoy the vehicle overall, not if it has a few problems. That said, I have had 2 vehicles leave me totally stranded on the road, a Honda and a Nissan. This is something my MGB, Triumph Spitfire, Audi Fox's (2), or Fiat X19 never did. None of those vehicles had a reputation for reliability while the Honda and Nissan did. I am not knocking Honda or Nissan, they are nice vehicles, just pointing out that any vehicle has the potential of catastrophic failure.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Man, not stranded on the road by an MGB, a Triumph Spitfire, 2 Audi Foxes, and a Fiat X1/9?
    That's gotta be some kind of record!

    But, sure, as you say, any vehicle can fail.
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    I was stranded with an MG and a Fiat but I would buy both cars again. Minor inconvienence compared to the fun of driving.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Although Consumer Reports predicted a "worst in class" reliability rating for the Triscape, that doesn't mean that every one of them is a lemon. Merely that compared to the competition, the Triscape is predicted to have more problems. Still, you need to keep things in perspective.

    For example, If avg reliability means 10% of the model owners will experience problems, 50% worse than avg still only means 15% of the model owners will experience problems. Or looked at it another way, 85% of the model owners won't have any problems with their vehicle.

    I had a Jeep Cherokee for 8 years and it never had a single problem. However, I recognize that I was fortunate because Jeeps in general don't have a very good reputation for reliability.

    -Frank P.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    I can't get any sales figures later than Jan 02 at autosite.com. I used to be able to get these monthly by about the 10th of the following month.

    Anyone else have any luck with this?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    MPV uses a Jatco tranny. The Tribute uses the Ford CD4E that was problematic for 626 owners (we talked about that a lot in the 626 thread). Hopefully Ford will put the Jatco in that, it's a much better tranny (yes, I've sampled both).

    scape2: it's easy to find happy Escape owners, they sell 120k per month or so. But it's also easy to find unhappy owners. Chat rooms like these are not a scientific sample, so I rely on CR for the poor reliability forecast.

    It's not everything, the X5 has had 14 recalls and even worse reliability forecasts and people line up to buy those. The M class is also worse. But it does mean something, at least to me it does.

    -juice
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    they had a short clip about CR. They had 3 other automotive writers on and they all admited they bias there stories and comparisons towards their readers.. CR is no different. When has CR EVER rated a domestic in any class, or category, or test, or anything better than an import....??? Hmm..... I personally don't trust a mag that also rates toasters...
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    I guess if I found two cars I liked the same, and they both cost the same, then I would use CR for the tiebreaker.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Didn't anyone ever teach you to make your own decisions? Take them for another test drive to decide. My 98 ZX2 (bought 5/97) was better built and had fewer problems than my wife's 96 Civic which CR had listed as one of it's "pick's". I haven't touched that magazine since. By reading this, I guess they haven't changed their ways either. There is no perfect make or model of car. Buy what YOU like, not what other people say is the "best" or "most reliable". I wish they actually could predict that. Then maybe we would have perfect automobiles to drive. That would probably be boring though.
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    I have to agree somewhat with scape2 here.... I found CR's data at times to be REALLY faulty. Like in their special SUV issue last month. Some of the data in there were really off. I have to give them the "half black circle" for data reliability! . They do seem biased toward Subaru and Honda and toward foreign models in general (I think for one that Mazda has declined in quality recently). It could be because CR tends to walk with the "tree hugger" crowd and Subies and CRVs are considered "earth friendly". I do think the US cars still have some catching up to do in quality, especially in body build and in "peripheral" equipment like alternators and water pumps. CR admits the US models are catching up, though. Just read their reliability projections section in the latest annual auto issue.
  • goldencouple1goldencouple1 Member Posts: 209
    when I bought a Ford-made Mazda truck. CR preferred the Ford Ranger over the Toyota pickup. Why? CR got huffy over the price of the Toyota. It was found to be more reliable, but CR thought it was too expensive, so the Ranger was recomended over the Toyota. The Ranger was found to have "Average Reliability". Well, Average really was one tick from Below Average Reliability, and boy was the Ford/Mazda nearly below average. What a royal pain in the backside. I will follow the CR data for reliability -- I've found that to be right-on. And I'll always consider the CR evaluation of a car. But I will take into consideration the CR perspective: the Mazda Miata was fould to have a harsh, sports car like ride -- go figure! And I will never, ever, EVER buy another American manufacturer's car as long as I live. If CR predicts a car will have poor reliability, it's probably so. It's a sucker bet if it's a car produced by an American manufacturer. American manufacturers do not respect their customers and try to rip them off at every opportunity.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    goldencouple1,
    You had better watch what you say. If your little Forester gets stuck in some deep NM sand, you may very well need one of those "unreliable" American vehicles to tow you out. Not many foreign models out there can do it. You never know who's reading... CR, and any other magazine for that matter, are not fact books. The only real authority on what you should buy is your own brain. If you need a vehicle that will last for years to come, then by all means use the mags as a guide. You may get lucky, and then again, you may not. There are no guarantees. My family has had nothing but great experiences with Ford vehicles, and I am going to continue to buy them no matter what CR says because I really like the way they look, and drive. I still test drive everything else, but the Escape won my wife and I over by a large margin. She's a Honda lover, and I thought for sure I'd be driving a CR-V. I'm curious. What's the reliability rating on the BMW X5, and the Mercedes M class? The X5 has had about 12 recalls in the past three years, and the M class, along with the C class (USA Today last week), have been rated as two of the most problematic vehicles you can buy. If CR gives them high, or even mediocre, reliability marks, something is amiss. If not, maybe they actually are on to something.
  • speterson1speterson1 Member Posts: 228
    I don't understand why there's all this bickering about the reliability of CR (or for that matter, Edmunds). We all know that any manufacturer can make a lemon, just like there are many people out there with perfectly flawless 'unreliable' models.

    But the law of averages is what counts. CR polls a large number (I personally don't know their sample size) of auto owners and gets feedback on problems for the different makes and models. The result of these averages makes up their data and recommendations. If you don't trust their information because you think there is some conspiracy and foreign manufacturers are paying them off or whatever, fine. But really, what else are you going to do? Drive 400 different Toyota Camrys yourself, log the problems, and then move on to your next choice for a family sedan?
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Many manufacturers use outsourcing to lower costs of parts. Some parts in a Toyota are also found in a Ford and vis/versa throughout each manufacturer.
    I too have had nothing but great reliability/quality and value with Ford products throughout the years. If you visit other web sites/chat rooms around the net you will find plenty of unhappy Toyota/Honda owners out here. People who were swayed into buying and then finding out every Toyota/Honda built is not perfect as we are led to believe from the Press.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I guess you didn't see the humor then?. Here's the USA Today article I mentioned above.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-03-12-crcars.htm CR doesn't always get a large sample for every vehicle. I don't agree that everyone knows any manufacturer can produce a lemon. If you read around these boards, you'll see people that think some manufacturers can do no wrong. I never said there was a conspiracy at CR, I just can't believe that people heavily rely on their opinions when deciding what to drive. I guess I just care more about the driving aspect of owning a vehicle, rather than the value. Besides, we're just going with the flow here. I really don't care what you drive. I'm just here to offer some advice that stems from my experiences, whether anyone likes it or not, that's up to them.
  • speterson1speterson1 Member Posts: 228
    Very interesting article, baggs32. Thanks for posting, indeed I had not read that article! How strange that in 2001 they didn't get 100 surveys back for the Pontiac Grand Am, that's amazing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The PT Cruiser has the highest possible reliability score. Domestics are recommended (Taurus, Intrepid).

    Sample variance doesn't make their data wrong. They publish an average, so of course your mileage may vary. Honda makes some lemons, but most are reliable and on average you'll tend to do better than you would at Ford.

    More about Honda - they have a buy-back program, so I read that after arbitration they often take those cars out of circulation. With a new car, the owners likely has better results, and this makes their numbers look better. I saw lemon law vehicles for one state, and Honda didn't have a single one - because they were bought back. They were the only manufacturer to have zero lemons in that state that year. It may bias the numbers, but if you're an owner, who cars, you don't end up with the lemon.

    baggs32: I've driven my Forester on sand, and it was excellent. It's very light and performs admirably in the sand. Driver is the biggest factor, of course.

    X5 has actually had 14 recalls, and the reliability scores are equally awful. M class also gets awful scores. So they seem to be spot-on.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You don't have to rely on CR, ask any Ford executive - they simply botched the Focus and Escape launches, there is no way around that fact. They know quality fell behind GM and Chrysler, and they didn't wait for CR to announce it. Many articles in Automotive News talk about how Ford plans to turn this around.

    Yes, BMW messed up the X5 launch, too, but I guess owners like them a lot so they're more forgiving?

    -juice
  • onesantafeonesantafe Member Posts: 7
    and while I found strengths in both vehicles, I selected the Santa Fe and after 1200 miles I am still very happy with my decision. I don't have anything to say negative about the Trib...Geeeeeesh. I loved the looks but I am one of the people that also liked the looks of the Santa Fe and preferred the ride , price, and warranty. I purchased the LX with FWD (living in Va not much need for AWD) and had the dealer install the moonroof. So far, no problems and couldn't be happier with my decision.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Congrats. My lil' bro loves them. He's much younger (16) than I am.

    -juice
  • onesantafeonesantafe Member Posts: 7
    And after much research and testing I bought the LX Santa Fe with FWD and with 2400 miles couldn't be happier. Had to have the sun/moon roof installed after market but through the dealer. Don't know that many can compete with my success with vehicles. Seriously, My first purchase was a Plymouth Duster in 73.. After 13 yrs.. purchased a K car(still in use) and 2002 just got our Santa Fe 3/1/02. My best purchase yet.. trust me lol... I have the track record to prove my past decisions.. I love my Santa Fe!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds like you take pretty good care of your cars. Congrats on the new one.

    -juice
  • thor9thor9 Member Posts: 26
    Here is a link I also posted on the Edmund's Hyundai Santa Fe board, to a story from the Detroit News regarding sales of the Hyundai Santa Fe & Jeep Liberty. I thought this might be of interest to everyone who reads this board.


    http://detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0204/06/autos-458536.htm


    Interesting that they note that Hyundai has only one-sixth or one-seventh as many dealers as Ford, but sold HALF as many Santa Fe's as Ford sold Escapes.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That isn't as significant as it sounds - Ford has many SUVs, while Hyundai has only one. So someone shopping for an Escape might buy an Explorer or even a Taurus wagon.

    Still, Hyundai is doing well.

    -juice
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    side to this is the 10yr/100000 mile warranty sways people. Along with the Santa Fe sells for about 1K less than a comparable Escape. But, I guess if you are paying Yon Lu $2 an hour with no health benefits, 401K, or medical benefits you can cut the prices of your vehicles..
  • txsantafetxsantafe Member Posts: 25
    Come on Scape2,

    Everybody knows that Yon Lu makes $5 an hour not $2
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    And its amazing how those unmotivated workers can make a better car. Your constant defense of the Escape, in the face of all its problems, along with this last post, are very revealing. I'm an American, but am quite ashamed of the level of quality American labor is turning out (and service for that matter - has anyone had an appliance repairman over lately?) - Anyway, regarding the low wages, we need to consider that the bulk of work is probably done by robotics anyway! (They don't have a union, I can see it now....). Maybe Hyundai shouldn't open a plant in the US.... I actually expect an attack on Hyundai from organized "labor" and other groups like that, since they can't stand success at their expense!
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Foreign labor rate doesn't come down to absolute dollars, but to what is a decent living wage in that part of the world.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, forget about Yon Lu or whoever, pretty soon it'll be Billy Joe in Alabama. Hyundai announced that'll be the site for its US plant.

    Escape and Focus launches were botched, Ford employees and dealers readily admit that. I think they have good basic products, but just need to dot a few more "i"s and cross a few more "t"s.

    -juice
  • carseeker4carseeker4 Member Posts: 228
    Juice:
    Sorry, I have to disagree a bit about the "i" and "t"s on the Tribscape.... I still read the Escape/Tribute problems board. Every other day there is someone NEW out there. And every time I read it, it reinforces my SantaFe decision. Is the Tribscape a good vehicle? Yes, well-designed and it was my choice up until I picked over BOTH the SF and Trib parked next to one another in the parking lot and test drove both (yes, all in broad daylight too!). And, I picked the SF only at the very end of that process when I discovered the interior quality was better, the tolerances were better, the doors closed more "solidly" and everything from the engine compartment to the retractable cargo cover were more thoughtfully designed and had better materials! I thought that if Hyundai could build a car like this, that it was worth taking the Hyundai plunge. Time will tell. Anyway... I think failing engines/transmissions and the incredibly nagging stalling problems are MORE than dotted i's and crossed t's. Ask any Tribscape owner who has been through those problems. (Sorry for venting, scape2 got me going with the "Yon Lu" post, revealing a number of issues there, not the least of which is being blind to the failures of the American automobile industry in the past 20 years).
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