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Comments
-Frank P.
The 401 through Toronto is 16 lanes wide at some points though. Have you ever been up here or just know what the traffic is like from what you've heard?
But by far the worse drivers up there are going East out of Montreal :-)
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
-juice
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
Bradsher on Frontline, PBS, July 2001: How will the changing demographics of SUV buyers influence rollover rates?
"A big factor holding down the number of rollover deaths in SUVs until now is that these have mostly been $35,000 luxury vehicles being bought by prosperous middle-aged families with children who don't go out much after dark, aren't drinking a lot. The problem is coming in that teenagers like SUVs more than any other age group, according to the automakers' research. ... They lack the driving skills to keep a vehicle like a sport utility on the road with all four wheels down. Then you are probably going to see more rollovers. ... "
--- so, what's the point? SUVs are dangerous, or that they're dangerous in the hands of inexperienced drivers? Isn't any vehicle? Should we outlaw anything bigger than a Kia Rio to anyone under the age of 23? Or, should we pretend that the teen who wants to lay waste to another SUV from a stoplight (sorry, I couldn't resist) might not lose control and roll over our smallish convertible or sedan?
From the Colombia Journalism Review, Sept/Oct 1998
"Bradsher has blown the whistle on the harsh reality that their [SUVs] increasing presence on the roads can be deadly to passengers in smaller, standard cars. Auto executives, and many journalists on the beat, argue that larger vehicles have always had an advantage over smaller cars in accidents – so why all the fuss? .....Speak with other auto reporters and they'll tell you that winning a Pulitzer is Bradsher's primary motive in devoting so much time and space to SUVs."
Of course, there are probably as many references touting Bradsher's wisdom about the dangers of SUVs as there are critics, although I believe the matter is much simpler than such debate. Answer this: If you were driving with your family and saw an out-of-control Navigator speeding at you head-on in thick traffic, what would you rather be driving, a Camry or a Land Cruiser?
Frankly, I think it would be more effective to battle aggressive drivers and tailgaters than any particular auto class.
By the way, I'm not a fan of fake wood trim either, although some lacquered real wood looks almost as plastic-y.
Where do you prefer your gear selector?
column or center console between the seats?
Sorry about being sarcastic - I see the above situation almost every day. It constantly amazes me that many people don't seem to realize that having that extra height comes at a price - you can't drive an SUV like a sports car. And that sports car has some advantages over the SUV - like nimble handling and lots of power.
Even if you aren't weaving in and out of traffic in an overloaded SUV at 20-30 mph above the speed limit, you are still putting yourself and others in danger by moving along at an excessive speed alone. You never know what is going to happen in front of you and a speeding SUV will not handle an emergency situation as well as most cars will.
paisan seems to think otherwise. It is easy to do that though.
Some Excursions are even exempt from CAFE standards because the GVWR is so high. I think a special license should be required to drive such a huge beast, it only makes sense. You want a 16 year old driving that thing and sharing the road with you, loaded to capacity? We need graduated licensing.
I prefer shifters on the center console. Column shifters remind me of my dad's old cars. I don't like the ones in the dash, either, like the Highlander. Tradeoff is you can't walk between the seats, but I prefer the solution Volvo uses - let the rear seat slide forward for access to a kid in the center booster seat (also built-in).
-juice
Bob
Yet any 16 year old with a plain, basic license can drive them. It ain't right, they should require a different class of license.
-juice
I disagree with you about the license. I want to be able to drive the bigger trucks if I need to.
Bob
Let me put it this way - could your son handle driving a 13 ton truck without any additional training?
Someone like you probably should get a little extra driver training to drive something that big. I wouldn't mind if I had to go. Nowadays they require similar training before you can get a motorcycle license.
-juice
The problem with extra licensing is, it would put a HUGE burden on the commercial industry. The only real difference between a Class VI (26K GVW) truck and a Class VII (26,001 - 33K) truck is the GVW. The class VI exists "purely" so drivers don't have to get a CDL. Physically, a Ford F-650 (Class VI) and a Ford F-750 (Class VII) are identical. Same is true with other Class VI/VII trucks.
I've been driving since 1962, and in all those years I've driven a Class VI truck no more than a 1/2 dozen times, if that much...
Bob
The Pilot is mid-size and far more fuel efficient than the full-size SUVs. Nissan's Murano will also be mid-sized.
Bob: even if he has no interest, my point was he would not be prepared to drive that thing, though he's legally registered to do so.
But if I have to nit-pick, I don't think you should be licensed to drive a manual tranny if you took the driver's test in an automatic. Think about it - my little sister is completely dangerous behind the wheel of a manual-equipped car.
-juice
More recently (3 years ago), I drove a rather imposing Class III (F-350) U-Haul van, to move stuff out of my father-in-law's place, after he passed away. It's really just a matter of getting used to the size.
Bob
-juice
For those who are shopping, here's a new review of the Vue:
Long-Term Road Test: 2002 Saturn Vue
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
-juice
$700 for OnStar? You gotta be kidding me.
I wish they offered a manual with the V6.
-juice
I don't have a good answer about licensing. For instance, I drive one of the poorest high speed handling SUVs on the market, I think. Should there be a seperate license for it, just because a small number of idiots out on the road don't drive it safely? Most people I know who drive them know enough to drive it slower than anything else, and to crawl along if it is windy.
As far as younger drivers go - as juice and others pointed out - they don't have much experience to know what safe handling is all about. Maybe we should go with a system that has a 1 year learners permit, or something like that, so that young drivers can get more experience before they are "turned loose."
-juice
-juice
As for the graduated licensing topic, I'm wondering what's done in other countries. For example, I know that Germany has (or at least had) relatively stricter training and licensing standards (including first aid classes) for all age groups; but I'm not sure what the minimum age for cruising the autobahn is. I haven't formed an opinion on this yet, but wonder what it would be like if the US raised the minimum driving age for full licensing. Maybe inexperienced drivers should have vivid decals or antenna flags indicating their level of training until they have proven some practice and skill (isn't something like that done in Canada?). Conspicuity has a way of making people behave more carefully.
Otherwise, I wouldn't be completely averse to taking special driver training for different classes of vehicles, although it might be inconvenient. The biggest problem would be dealing with (and paying for) the inevitable beaurocracy. I suppose that our "insurance point" system takes care of some of that problem indirectly. Meanwhile, whenever I see a rental truck in my mirror or path my impulse is to get as far away as possible.
Besides that, the trucking industry would fight any such legislation to its death.
Bob
More on topic, has anyone here actually seen a Murano up close yet?
-mike
I talked to my friend who owns the Vue. She has a 4 cylinder and still loves it - it goes up and down the mountains very easily. She has a 2WD (lucky her - she isn't a commuter) so it isn't important for her to be able to get out of her place in the winter. She thinks the seat back isn't the most comfortable, but it isn't bad, and she loves the gas mileage.
http://www.gov.mb.ca/tgs/leg/gdl/class5.html
We have many more classes of vehicles that you need special tests for to be able to drive legally. The link is only for cars and light trucks.
I agree too paisan, but would you or anyone else blame themselves if they rolled an SUV over while driving at "excessive" speeds?
We stand to benefit more (both financially and legally) by blaming the manufacturer(s).
-mike
Part of the solution: Driver skills training. Safe and considerate driving practices. Remembering that driving is a privilege, not a right.
Big part of the problem: Lawyers and insurance companies have created a game not unlike "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?". Here, even something like getting fat from too much fast food stands a great chance of gaining people a financial windfall (from court or publicity); while taking personal responsibility for foreseeable consequences costs money. No mystery about whether that's likely to change.
On many of these boards, lots of complaints turn quickly into "is there a possiblity for a class action suit here?" And then everyone wonders why manufacturers are often slow to adjust anything that can be construed as an admission of defect. Buying a new vehicle and buying a lottery ticket are still two different things, aren't they?
I'm considering bringing a class action suit against the PowerBall because they invariably pick the wrong numbers! I know I have the winning numbers when I buy my ticket but they always manage to bungle it and invariably pick the wrong numbers every Wednesday and Saturday. :-)
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
I wonder if UHaul would offer some basic advice, and maybe offer a little instruction to a newbie. Just a thought if the industry wanted to address it themselves.
-juice
You may object to personal injury and manufacturer liability claims. You may find PI (personal injury) attorneys objectionable. God knows I do, and I've worked with them and for them in a support capacity; they argue with you over where the sky is blue on a sunny day. But if you are aware of what goes on, you begin to see that most large manufacturers and insurance companies will do the math and go for profit over safety on a pretty regular basis. And in a world where your elected representative will put campaign contributions ahead of morality, ethics, and your safety, someone has to be the objectionable [non-permissible content removed] that makes things uncomfortable for those that put profit over public safety. And do not forget that the vast majority of awards are given by juries, and that the defendants have the highest priced lawyers available, the best educated, the best supported, the most articulate. Where things settle out of court, usually the plaintiff actually has a pretty good case - if he/she did not, there'd be a fight.
I've known a lot of doctors. And bankers. And architects. Self-made men, CEOs. Owners of insurance agencies and at least one insurance company. They were all objectionable bastards. But they had their purposes and they did their jobs well.
-mike