Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

mtngal · June 2003

There are only 2 of us, plus a Golden Retriever. I've only had the back seat in the Wrangler once since I bought it. I've ridden in the back jump seat of the Taco twice, and never on a trip. So for me, the lower payload isn't a big deal.

rsholland · June 2003

But others, who see that huge cargo area might well be tempted to (over)load it to the gills.

BTW, we also have a Golden, named Annie. She will turn 7 this August, and is still a 95 pound puppie.

Bob

mtngal · June 2003

My Golden is a male named Winger who is 10. He is finally settling down a bit and only acts like a puppy when we are hiking. He still chases squirrels, though he's getting slower.

I do know what you are saying about people overloading a vehicle with a huge cargo area. I often see overloaded minivans quickly loosing speed when trying to go up some of the steeper portions of my daily commute. And with the ability to fold the seats totally out of the way or remove them easily, it would be very tempting.

paisan · June 2003

With a wrangler there just is no space to put things so if the capacity is low it's hard to exceed it due to space constraints. I think that they should require manufacturers to have a space/payload rating over a certain amount. ie: If you have a lot of space, the vehicle must be able to carry X amount of weight.

-mike

ateixeira · June 2003

It's odd, because the CR-V's payload is 800 and it has smaller 15" wheels and tires. If you look at the load rating of the Element's tires, they're much higher.

So it must be the suspension or the chassis. Or maybe the fact that it's curb weight is higher.

If you get one, wait for one with side air bags. It fared very poorly without them in that IIHS test.

-juice

paisan · June 2003

Similar to the old days where 4x2 models had a greater towing capacity than 4x4 models, the extra weight will decrease the NVWR from the GVWR. (Net v. Gross Vehicle Weight Rating)

-mike

mtngal · June 2003

If manufacturers put suitable payload capacity to the volume, their fleet's fuel economy would go south - you would need a bigger engine to haul the extra weight and so on. I think that has something to do with it.

I'm in no hurry to buy (in fact, I can't yet) so I'll wait for the side airbags, if I do decide to go that route. I'll still test drive the Forester XT and the WRX again (and while I'm at it, the Outback) before I buy.

The funny thing about last weekend was that my hubby wanted to look at the Liberty Renegade. Since I knew he really liked them, I suggested we look at the Element first (otherwise I figured we wouldn't make it to the Honda dealership). After we test drove the Element I suggested that we go to the Jeep dealer, and he said he didn't want to bother. While the Liberty is not completely out of the running, I think it has taken a back seat at the moment.

Now if all of you could just be your normal helpful selves and give me tomorrow's winning lottery numbers, I'd be able to get this whole thing over with!

ballistic · June 2003

Juice says, "It's odd, because the CR-V's payload is 800 and it has smaller 15" wheels and tires. If you look at the load rating of the Element's tires, they're much higher. So it must be the suspension or the chassis. Or maybe the fact that it's curb weight is higher."

Nope. It's the crushing burden of ugliness all Elements are forced to lug around.

- jb

scape2 · June 2003

age 13, calls the Element, "Uglyment"!! I got a good kick out of that one..... My wife could not believe Honda would make something so "Horrific"

ateixeira · June 2003

Laughs now, but Honda has the last laugh. Sales are phenomenal, way above projections. Even combined CR-V/Element sales are above projections. It's a certified hit for Honda.

Compare that to the disaster that was a certain Pontiac we often mention. Nothing could help that, not an emergency face-lift, not even being the top sponsor of the #1 show back then (Survivor).

-juice

xccoachlou · June 2003

Around here, there are a few on the road. I remember when they first came out, they were selling for over sticker.

Now, they are being advertised and there are Elements on dealer lots, dare I say, languishing?

rsholland · June 2003

Funny thing is, it's middle-aged folks who are buying them; just like the PT Cruiser.

Bob

subewannabe · June 2003

it just occurred to me that my 16 foot white water canoe has a payload capacity of 1100 lbs with 6" of waterline. its a royalex 75 pound bathtub, not a sleek kevlar boat, but the payload to weight ratio is impressive. so far, ive gotten two adults , two kids, a monstrous black labrador and gear for an overnite camp out loaded in a stable configuration. maybe honda should offer a promotion for the element which includes a free canoe!
Mark

stever · June 2003

I used to have a 16' ABS canoes like that too. My record was getting 17 gingerly balanced people in it before sending it to the bottom :-). My wife still has a royalex solo boat - that stuff is tough. Too bad you can't get car panels made out of it like some semi cabs are.

Steve, Host

ateixeira · June 2003

I'm talking national monthly sales, of course YMMV and certain regions are hotter than others. They've been on sale since last year, and just now dealers are starting to actually have models in stock.

Mark: if so, they could say they've added 1100 lbs of payload, but only if you use the canoe!

-juice

bess · June 2003

With the exception of the Passport and Insight, the Element is the worse selling car/suv that Honda has. only 28,000 sold this year so far puts it pretty far down on the list. About the same as the PT Cruiser and Buick Rendenvous sales.

rsholland · June 2003

Whether the Element is or is not the worst selling Honda is irrelevant. What's important is: Is it meeting the sales goals that Honda set out for the car? That's the only way you can judge it to be a success or not.

The Dodge Viper is probably the worst selling Dodge. Does that mean it's a failure? If the Element brings in new or different customers to Honda, then that's not such a bad thing, IMO.

Bob

mtngal · June 2003

I don't know about sales numbers, but I've been surprised how many I've seen around here so soon after release. There are not many at the dealers, and they are all still marked up quite high without anyone dealing much.

baggs32 · June 2003

"If the Element brings in new or different customers to Honda, then that's not such a bad thing, IMO."

That is a good thing. Only problem is that it is not bringing in new or different people.

Joe 40-something seems to be their biggest Element customer. At least around here anyway.

Makes you wonder who's going to buy the Scions, doesn't it?

ballistic · June 2003

Bob says, "Is it meeting the sales goals that Honda set out for the car? That's the only way you can judge it to be a success or not."

Agreed, but did they have to go SO far out of their way to make it look that way? The functions it aims to perform could not have been achieved with less-noxious shape, primer-colored fenders, and so forth? I forget the name, but Toyota is releasing a vehicle that looks much like the Element. I hope against hope that both of these get soundly rejected in the marketplace, so these and other manufacturers aren't encouraged to produce more of the genre.

I realize that style is very much a matter of personal taste, and I'd never claim to have any better basis to evaluate than anybody else, but a small handful of vehicles just seem to be genuinely obnoxious - the Aztek, the Chev Avalanche, the Element, the badly-overdone corrugated side cladding on many recent Pontiacs...even the widely-criticized AMC Pacer was a visual tour de force compared to any of these. Car designers shouldn't intentionally uglify their vehicles just to separate them from the crowd. There are better, and much more creative, ways.

jb

rsholland · June 2003

Here we disagree. I like the looks of the Element.

Also, keep in mind the Element was originally designed to attract college-age folks, not you and me. Funny thing is, I see more middle-aged people buying them than I do 20-somethings.

Bob

ateixeira · June 2003

It is selling to an older demographic, but they are not cannibalized sales, they are additional sales. Honda is happy, I'm sure.

-juice

baggs32 · June 2003

"It is selling to an older demographic, but they are not cannibalized sales, they are additional sales. Honda is happy, I'm sure."

I don't know about that. CR-V sales have slowed down a good bit and I think the Element is one good reason why. Looks like joe 40-something could be trading his older CR-V, Civic, or Accord in for something a little more hip. Or at least that's what he thinks he's doing.

mtngal · June 2003

I'm not sure that "hip" has a great deal to do with it. I think that many of the 40 and 50 something (even 60 something) crowd realize how practical the Element's interior is. At least, that's how this 50 year old feels - I can camp, commute, transport a soaking wet dog, go to the beach for a day and don't have to worry about cleaning up the carpet or vacuuming dog hair out of the seats. If I need to transport sage brush cleared from the back yard to the dump, I can do it easily. It just makes sense for what I want. Exterior styling has very little to do with it.

And that's why I think they will sell more Elements to the older crowd than they will to the younger crowd. They really do care about driving what is considered cool.

ateixeira · June 2003

I think the real reason is that it's not really a good multi-passenger hauler, so it appeals to empty-nesters.

Think about it. For a family of four, the driver has to undo his seat belt every time he drops someone off. What a pain.

It's a much better "2 seater, 4 in a pinch". If you look at it that way, you're not using the back seat routinely and the inconvenience of having to remove your seat belt isn't a big deal.

baggs: sales figures I saw had combined CR-V + Element way above CR-V's alone.

-juice

baggs32 · June 2003

"sales figures I saw had combined CR-V + Element way above CR-V's alone."

You're right if you go by YTD sales. Monthly sales have varied though.

mtngal · June 2003

Juice - good point about the doors. It would be inconvenient to keep opening the front doors to let kids off. It didn't even occur to me, since I will rarely have a 3rd or 4th person with us.

scape2 · June 2003

must all be in California I would guess?? I have only seen a handful in the large NW city I live in.. This Element is plain ugly and will be a fad in passing. Most sales of vehicles when newly introduced sell well. Come back in 2 years when the hoopla is over and you won't be able to give the "uglyment" away!!! LOL!

xccoachlou · June 2003

Honda Element 6,982 in May 2003 and 28,931 year to date.

mtngal · June 2003

Resale value doesn't really enter into my computations - with the number of miles I put on a vehicle, it won't have much worth when I go to sell it. So I don't care if it has lousy resale value.

And pretty isn't all that it is cracked up to be. As I've said before, my Taco has a pretty interior (the reason I let my other half talk me into it), but it is the most uncomfortable vehicle I've ever owned. I won't make the mistake of buying just pretty again!

lfike · June 2003

I have to agree with everything Mtngal says. She sounds very practical (I'll take that anyday!). I also think the Element is "different", but, also being a empty nester in the 50 bracket...it would be the perfect vehicle for hauling my wife and I, 2 schnauzers (mini's), all the garden supplies, flowers, small trees, camping gear etc etc etc.
Some of you think it's all about looks, well, I think your missing the boat. I went as far as test driving the Element and found that it handled BETTER than the CRV. don't get me wrong, the CRV handled extremely well...it's just that the Element has a wider track. Do keep in mind we are talking about a vehicle here....If you need a vehicle that looks good for a date or your ego.....well, it's like they say..."it's what's on the inside that counts". The Element is all about the "inside".
my 2cts

ateixeira · June 2003

Element prices are low to begin with, so IMO resale will be strong, as long as you don't pay MSRP. If you're close to invoice, I mean, we're talking just $16-20k or so. It costs less than the CR-V or just about any vehicle in the topic title.

Lewis: you're perceptive about the handling, because it does get stiffer springs and fatter anti-roll bars, plus 16" rims vs. 15" for the CR-V, all for less money.

-juice

ateixeira · June 2003

Well yeah, Honda accessories are sold seperately. Subaru includes a lot of stuff standard.

The Element DX doesn't even have A/C standard.

-juice

xccoachlou · June 2003

I'm one of those obsessive compulsive (or is it Obsessive-Compulsive... now I'll never get any sleep tonight...) people that likes to compare apples to apples.

So, I did a comparison of the MSRP for the Element vs the 2003 Forester XS, comparably equipped.

The Forester XS comes standard with Roof Rack, side air bags, fog lights, 6 CD Changer, cargo cover, leather covered steering wheel, and alloy wheels. Added was a cargo net, an armrest extension, and splash guards. MSRP was $24,842. The Element, comparably equipped is $23,162.

Juice is right as usual, Subaru includes a lot of equipment as standard that is not found on the Element.

Just to further complicate things, not only should one note how competing vehicles are equipped, and determine the MSRP of comparably equipped vehicles, but also the "TMV" and Invoice prices, along with any incentives and rebates one may qualify for.

tidester · June 2003

Thanks! :-)

tidester, host

mtngal · June 2003

Very interesting. In some ways I didn't want to do what you just did, because I assumed that Honda would price all those accessories much higher, while their base price was so low.

I saw my first Scion on the road yesterday. I think it was some type of promotional vehicle, because it had Scion written on several places. It's exterior has a cleaner design than the Element, and it looked smaller. I might wander past the Toyota dealership I dislike the most sometime soon, just to take a quick, curious look, but since it is 2WD, I wouldn't buy it.

ateixeira · June 2003

Yowsah, the early numbers are in, the XT hit 60mph in C&D tests in just 5.3 seconds! Even street start was 6.3.

That creams even the estimates for the Saturn Vue Redline (close to 7s).

Now if I could only get the moonroof with a 5 speed, it'd be perfect.

-juice

jlemole · June 2003

those are some sweet 0-60 numbers for a little ol' Forester!!

Jon

baggs32 · June 2003

"Yowsah, the early numbers are in, the XT hit 60mph in C&D tests in just 5.3 seconds! Even street start was 6.3."

Was that with a nitrous can too? The latest MT estimates the XT's 0-60 times to be somewhere in the low 8's.

I think 5.3 and/or 6.3 seconds is a little optimistic. Seriously, how can 45 HP take 4.3 seconds off of the 0-60 time?

There's no doubt it'll be faster, but I think high 6's or low 7's would be a little more realistic.

ateixeira · June 2003

MT messed up their numbers, those were estimates for their normally aspirated Forester. It was literally a mistake.

Not that I expect much accuracy from the publication that named Caprice COTY.

How can 45hp take off so much time? Maybe it's not just 45hp. Subaru is known to have underestimated power before (JDM STi was over 300 with only 280 claimed).

We did some calculations based on gearing and weight, and that engine is making about 208hp at the wheels to get those kinds of numbers. That works out to at least 250hp gross.

-juice

PS Go drive one, it *IS* that fast

ballistic · June 2003

bagg32 wrote, "I think 5.3 and/or 6.3 seconds is a little optimistic. Seriously, how can 45 HP take 4.3 seconds off of the 0-60 time? "

Well, there's also the axle ratio - 4:41 instead of 4:11. Also, the betting is that the XT's advertised 210bhp is nowhere near what it's actually making...

jb

jaserb · June 2003

Talk about a publication that can't find its rear-end with both hands. They ought to just hire Ann Job and be done with it.

Juice, if those numbers are for real the Forester just got a whole lot less ugly! That has to make it probably the ultimate all-time sleeper.

-Jason

ateixeira · June 2003

the Forester just got a whole lot less ugly

LOL! She's got a GREAT personality!

-juice

PS I like boxy designs, FWIW

bkaiser1 · June 2003

After about 5 seconds behind the wheel of an XT, you'll know that MT's estimate in the 8's is way off. Hell, my 99 Civic could pull off sprints in the 8's, and my short test drive of an XT this week confirmed, this car has WAY more under the hood than my Honda (or Outback). Even giving them the benefit of the doubt that CD had a strong example, I'd say anything under 7 seconds at this price point is fantastic performance.

B

subewannabe · June 2003

aint misbehavin...are you? by subewannabe Jun 27, 2003 (12:34 pm)
I stopped by my nearest subaru dealer yeaterday, prestige subaru in Asheville( which happens to be the biggest volume dealer in the southeast with a really great service crew that loves aftermarket tuning). they have sold 4 of the 6 XT's they received last week, and agreed to sell me whatever i want on the VIP plan at invoice . the salesman suggested taking the savings on the price of the car and getting the leather, premium sound, more sound insulation and even a sunroof if i want it on a MT through their aftermarket detail shop, under the MSRP on the Premium Package , and get better leather in the process. they had a 2003 silver XS with the premium package that included a light gray leather, and it looked so much better , IMHO, than the dark gray you can get in the XT. Likewise the beige leather in the cayenne red XS. the salesman offered his personal opinion that the AT is more than adequate performance, though, unless i was a MT purist.
  one a side note, the seats on the XT are the same shape and structure as the NA forester, i.e. no meaningful thigh and side bolsters like the WRX. I really like the WRX seats and LOVE, not like, the pneumatic adjustable seat bolsters and lumbar supports on the 6-way electric adjustable leather seats, driver and passenger side,in my '94 explorer.maybe i can get an aftermarket seat set rather than just putting leather on the existing seats.( i actually considered pulling the explorer seats out and putting them in an XT and hook them up to the seat heater circuit, but i dont think that will work.)

   On a serious note....in an amazing display of restraint, i turned down repeated offers to take his remaining 2 XT's on test drives, one Black AT , the other a Red MT. I decided to "do the right thing", considering all the posts in here about getting a truly "virgin" new XT and making sure it was not abused in the break in period. I was also reacting to my shock, and anger, after reading a few posts of folks who test drove XTs from dealers' very limited supply, just out of curiosity and with absolutely no intent to buy it, then blatantly ignored the manuf. recomm. break in procedures by pushing the cars to redline! somebody else can later buy the car that they have abused, and wonder why their car is losing compression at high RPM, etc., and that dealer who trusted them to test drive a car responsibly can try to appease an unhappy owner of a "new " XT and figure out whats wrong with that car and try to fix it.
    the posts in here from new BUYERS like chassol and ballistic have been worth their weight in gold to people who are considering buying a new XT or just subaru enthusiasts. now we also have the reviews in the car mags coming out, driving cars provided by Subaru to be driven to the limits. if you are not buying, maybe you should give some thought to whether you would want to be the person who bought the car you test drove.
Mark

ateixeira · June 2003

What's with the cross-posting? I've read that several times now. It's it just deja-vu? ;-)

-juice

subewannabe · June 2003

i couldnt recall which boards i read about what i feel to be irresponsible test driving , so i posted it in all five of the boards that seem to be carrying on a thread on the forester XT. sorry to wear out my soap box.
mark

ateixeira · June 2003

Oh, I thought you were out on a mission or somethin'. ;-)

You ought to try one, though I'll warn you it'll corrupt you immediately.

-juice

scape2 · December 2003

time to get this room going...
The Ford/Mazda offer the best V6 in this class hands down! I have blown away more Liberties, Hyundias, Vues than I can even count.. Although the Liberty boast its offroad prowness.. on the city streets, (Where 99 percent of our driving is done) the Escape wins hands down.... Love my Escape! 35,000 trouble free, reliable miles...

p0926 · December 2003

scape2- But would you dare to take on a measly 4-cylinder with your V-6 Escape? Say perhaps the Forester XT? ;-) My bet is you'd learn first-hand what it's like to get your doors blown off!

-Frank P.

Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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