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Comments
With all the problems I hear about on here and from personal friends concerning the JGC, I am sure glad I don't have one. I would hate to spend that much time in the shop without my vehicle.
Did I mention there are Nissan, Honda & Toyota "problems" discussions? The CR-V one in the Owner's Club comes to mind off-hand. I know the Van ones better (Quest & Odyssey have them for sure - the Sienna one can be found by searching for "sludge"). No real point here, other than anything mechanical is going to need maintenance at some time in its life.
Steve
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Fishrxman, I couldn't have said it better. "Tons of valuable information about owning a Jeep can be found through the posts here. The valuable posts have specific information and clear, thoughtful replies. Look back at the NAMES of those making posts. It is shameful for anyone to make off the wall comments without backing. You can tell which posts are worth reading and which should be entirely ignored."
"In March, Chrysler led Detroit automakers in Consumer Reports magazine's annual product reliability survey...Components are being shared across product lines and among DaimlerChrysler affiliates Mercedes-Benz, Mitsubishi Motors Corp. and Hyundai Motor Co. Suppliers are being held to higher quality standards as well."
Steve
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Are you not willing to admit what DC is willing to admit?
Reliability aside, the JGC is a better vehicle to be used as designed. Power, capability, good room for it's size, doesn't drive like a boat, comfortable ride height but still class leading ground clearance, and darn good lookes compared to most of the mini-van looking SUV's. You have to go to a full-size to get the "utility" of the JGC.
I can't see getting all boo-hoo about reliability anymore. My Tacoma needed shocks, rotors, and pads at 30K, and a new A/C system at 50K. Still a nice vehicle, but that's probably a lemon to some folks around here.. I'd have been pretty ticked if the only reason I bought that truck was to hit 200K without ever doing a thing to it. My current Jeep had the rotors replaced under warranty at 25K and that's it. Approaching 50K miles now but think I'm about due for pads. So actually I'm ahead of my Tacoma as far as problems although I just don't worry about that too much. In the last 10 years I've put close to 500K miles on various domestic and imports and have yet to have one not start beyond a dead battery. I can't imagine driving 15K miles per year and worrying about reliability issues with any vehicle produced today. The only thing I may not buy would be a first year Ford. If I like it I'm going to buy it, I don't care who makes it. Just so it does the job I want.
And the first thing I'd do to the Q is replace the power antenna with a fixed mast. I smacked a tree branch with mine yesterday going down an alley and thought of bigorange. I've had power antennas back when they were popular and never again. Put three of them on my Camry and that's a stinking car that never seen anything but paved roads.
I have never consulted Consumer Reports prior to the purchase of any asset that I have owned. Never. Not for a car, computer, camera - nothing. Yet, I have never owned a lemon, had recurrent problems or resented a purchase. I think CR is about is unbiased and scientific as the last presidential election. Its just not true. Far too many factors, far too much at stake.
I do spend a great deal of time speaking with owners and consulting sites such as this. In viewing the many posts on JGC one thing I dont understand is the need to continuously compare without accomplishing improvement. Its almost like the Manhatten project in concept - build the best big stick. Have we not moved forward ?
As an American consumer I dont care in the least if the Honda, Nissan, Lexus, Acura etc are better or worse in comparison. While I understand I am only one opinion on this discussion group it is the view I hold. Thats because I dont ever plan to look at one or purchase one. The only worthy competitor to offroad use that Jeep has internationally appears to be the Landrover products.
DC has offered a 3/36 plus a 7/100 warranty. Why worry ? Why stress ? Just drive it, its a machine and machines have issues. All of them.
One thing I know for sure. In my years working mountain rescue and being an avid outdoorsmen nothing makes me laugh more than the multitude of SUV;s on the road that are driven by people that will never take them off road or use their capabilities. Thats just fine since most of them wouldnt make it. Most of the SUV's are perfect for occassional bad weather (although even needing 4WD for that is questionable) and otherwise look great at the mall and at the office as a nice alternative to the mini-van.
I have a friend who recently bought a CRV. Off road. Sure whatever. Maybe if its on a flatbed and sebring is towing it behind. He belives however that it will work. And who am I to tell him it wont - CR rated it very highly.
Have we reached quality improvement ? Not yet, because our individual needs are so significantly different.
Enjoying the discussion, and the debate.
paramedic99
It is basically satellite radio. By default, most stereos won't pick it up. To get it you have two options:
1. Get an aftermarket stereo that has XM capability built in. You will need an external XM tuner.
2. Get a RF modulation system (Sony, Alpine, Pioneer, and others) that basically hook into your factory stereo head unit and you listen via a radio frequency. You will still need the external XM tuner.
I wanted to avoid the RF if I could, though I have it in my BMW and it sounds GREAT. I just like the idea of having the xm unit with the head unit. My wife and I love the stock look and would like to keep that without having to go to a DIN size stereo like an Alpine. GM and DC like using the big fat stereos and I was hoping there would be a 1.5 DIN that has XM ready to go.
I have pics of the RF unit (at least the display of it) at: http://community.webshots.com/user/skimblz_ if you want to get a better idea of what it looks like.
-Paul
"Reliability aside, the JGC is a better vehicle to be used as designed. Power, capability, good room for it's size, doesn't drive like a boat, comfortable ride height but still class leading ground clearance, and darn good lookes compared to most of the mini-van looking SUV's...
Nicely stated, Sebring95, 100% true. Last night I took a long look through the QX4 board here on Edmunds. Amazing how many posts there are about problems owners have had with the QX4, including one owner who had his in the shop the 28 of the first 30 days he owned it.
It just amazes me when folks like BigOrange30 trash the JGC (after owning just ONE for a short time I might add) and buy something they claim is "much more reliable" - yet among his own posts over in the QX4 forum are interweaved plenty of people who have had their QX4's in the shop for a WIDE variety of problems. Like Paramedic99 said, "its a machine and machines have issues. All of them." The key word here is "ALL".
I have owned plenty of cars in the past that Consumer Reports has trashed and in almost every single case I have not had the problems or issues or quirks that they have reported about. The advantages the Jeep Grand Cherokee has FAR outweigh any problems one might encounter, which reading posts from a lot of 2001 and 2002 Jeep owners is extremely minimal and NO DIFFERENT from any other brand out there.
He has a 99' Chevy Silverado and his wife has a 99' Grand Cherokee Limited 4wd V8 with Quadra-Drive, Sedona with Camel leather. Talking with my father one day about our Avalance he mentioned how he used to work for Chrysler some years back. Going on he said they've had several problems with it since new coupled with less than stellar service, the exact opposite of his Silverado. But, I digress.
Knowing what a commonly problematic combination they have (99' LTD V8 with Quadra-Drive), I could only imagine what had gone wrong so far. Then today I heard what sounded like a large diesel truck in their driveway and went out for a look. What was going on? It was a large flat bead and after having rolled the Jeep out of the garage, I watched them pull it up on the back and drive away. Jee, another shocker (yeah right!).
We spoke to him again this afternoon and he said that when he went out this morning it wouldn't start and after having pumped the gas pedal a few times it still wouldn't (don't even begin to ask me why he would do such a thing to a fuel-injected vehicle!). One of the problems they had happen before was with the fuel pump but it wasn't ever really figured out and he was told it was some electronic glitch. Well, I guess that could be, as that was the only thing the -1* Chrysler dealer would tell us about our 300M on one of its many all-day visits.
The 300M was a story in and of its own (the 300M board guys aren't to fond of me!), and now I know our neighbors have to go through the same crap as we did for more than a year and a half.
Ah, what a nice life it is to finally have a FLAWLESS vehicle! It's so great to have something that never makes you worry or has to go in all the time for more and more annoyances or defects. We traded the 300M back in March for a 2002 Chevy Avalanche Z66 by the way.
I've ridden in a friend's 99' Laredo before and found it quite nice, and they don't seem to be having much of any problems. It's good to know Chrysler is getting better and better with each year, but I don't think we'll be going for another ever again!
"Ah, what a nice life it is to finally have a FLAWLESS vehicle! It's so great to have something that never makes you worry or has to go in all the time for more and more annoyances or defects. We traded the 300M back in March for a 2002 Chevy Avalanche Z66 by the way."
Let me get this straight - the Chevy Avalanche that you JUST bought 3 months ago you consider a "flawless vehicle", the one that you bought to replace the problematic 300M? Are you kidding? While I think it is amazing that it has not been in the shop for the first 3 months you have owned it, you will most likely see the repair shop just as often as you did with your 300M. The Avalanche has had more than its share of problems, include some serious ones like engine oil consumption and engine knocking. Not to mention side door problems, water leaks, lock cylinder problems, slipping tranny, AC problems, leaking transmissions, radio problems and more. Like the new and very problematic Trailblazer, I don't see the Avalanche being that great reliabilty-wise either. BOTH of these new 2002 vehicles have far more problems than the 2002 Jeeps.
What amazes me is all the people that post on this board that have had one problem vehicle, like your neighbor's Jeep and your 300M, and then because of that experience, "ALL" similar brand vehicles are stereotyped as "unreliable" - yet the vehicles you folks are replacing the "bad ones" with are just as unreliable or have had (or will have) just as many problems as your previous vehicles! I don't get it. But, I can say this Beach15, my guess is that you will soon be posting all of your new problems on the Avalache board and a year or two from now will trade it in for "something more reliable".
Steve
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Reliability is every bit as important to me as it is to all of you. That's why I drive the JGC... for me, it's the best snow vehicle out there. Yes, I had a bad one. No, it didn't turn me off on this brand. I didn't let one bad experience turn me off on this vehicle, or on DC in its entirety.
I worked with my dealer to get the vibration problem fixed on my 98. They made several serious and honest attempts to fix this with no success. I certainly can't blame them for not trying. I can't blame DC for not standing behind their product either. They bought it back without question and gave me a fantastic deal on a new 99 to boot. I figured that if my dealer and DC were willing to make the effort to make things right, keep me as a customer, and stand behind their product like that, then I'm going to continue driving a JGC. Two JGC's later, I've had absolutely no regrets on that decision.
Prior to owning my first JGC in 93, I considered myself a GM person. That's all I ever drove. I've certainly had my share of problems with them too. Yet I still liked them and continued to drive them. Whenever I decide it's time for a new vehicle, I always take a serious look at the Tahoe because I like them and the extra room would be nice (I won't even waste my time looking at a Blazer/Trailblazer). I always come back to the JGC. The overall quality and available features still beats anything the Tahoe has to offer... and for about $4-5K less.
I also take into consideration that I've been driving JGC's and servicing them through one dealer exclusively since 93. None of my JGC's have ever "broken down" and left me stranded. I'm not saying that could never happen. But I'm comfortable with the vehicle and my service department's ability to fix any problem that may arise. I know what my JGC is/isn't capable of and I'm aware of all of its characteristics. None of these are so earth shattering that they can't be dealt with, or makes me want to switch to a different brand of vehicle. I'm not dealing with any more issues here than I would be if I was driving something else.
Like tloke1, I'm amazed at all the "one problem vehicle" posters out here too. I'm not putting anyone down for that, and you truly have my sympathy. I believe these people are victims of the "law of averages" (I was one too) more than anything else. That could've happened no matter what you bought. I know that's no consolation and it's no excuse for a poorly built, individual vehicle. But, I believe the vast majority of JGC owners are happy. At least the ones I know are.
I also get the impression that there are a few posters out here who never have owned a JGC. Why they're posting in this particular thread is even more amazing to me. Their opinions and credibility carry zero weight and that's why the people that are truly interested in the JGC need to read between the lines and weed out the "no-experience" comments.
I don't waste my time either with what CR or any other publication has to say. Those opinions are subject to the personal preferences of the individual writers and I don't think it's a real world reflection on the vehicle itself. I also don't trust anybody's opinion when it's a job they're getting paid to do. Money creates biased opinions.
Of the two formats currently being offered (XM and Sirius), I believe the XM format is the way to go. Cheaper subscription, more features, variety and most importantly, the availability across more of the country. Sirius is behind schedule on start-up and is/was having a cashflow problem. Their subscription fee is higher.
In the 02 JGC brochure, I see they have a satellite radio option as a MOPAR aftermarket accesory add-on. Works through your factory radio I believe with a RF hookup, but displays the channels/info right through the factory radio dial. Unfortunately, it's the Sirius format. I wonder if the option is even available through a dealer at this time? Or how long it'll be a viable format if Sirius can't stay afloat? Makes me hesitate to go this route and invest the money if it isn't going to be around down the road.
But I'll make this quick, Steve. GM is offering XM on a good chunk of their 03 line coming out soon, so yes manufacturers are getting on board.
I like the idea of RF using the stock head unit on the 02's. Wonder if it would work with 2000 model or if I would have to replace with a 2002 head unit. If THAT is the case, I'd just as soon go aftermarket with a 1.5 DIN.
-Paul
Steve
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Car 1 - Honda Accord just got bought back under the lemon law.
Car 2 - Honda Accord tranny failure after 2 years.
Imaging the chagrin of the people who bought the two most reliable cars in the world. Anecdotal stories don't do very well - they are after all machines. They break down just as we do.
I will submit Japanese car manufactures do build good cars, but they are all machines nevertheless.
New AM/FM/CD stereo with built-in NAV - DVD based NAV system with display screen features just one disc for all of U.S.A. and parts of Canada. Single slot CD player with CD changer controls (11-disc total capacity). Sirius Satellite Radio® capable ($1795 MSRP).
New Sirius Satellite Radio System (MSRP $299 + install, available November 25th).
I suppose if Sirius ends up having financial problems and doesn't make it DC will have to switch over to XMS.
"I like the idea of RF using the stock head unit on the 02's. Wonder if it would work with 2000 model or if I would have to replace with a 2002 head unit. If THAT is the case, I'd just as soon go aftermarket with a 1.5 DIN. "
The Mopar unit should work fine on your 2000 model JGC as it's designed to work with most Chrysler radios. But I would wait for the new system coming in November that I mentioned in post #1220 above.
Everyone: Can I ask a dumb question? What is a creampuff (as in cars, the food tastes pretty good)? I've heard it used in a variety of ways (ex: rebuilt cars) and am slowly going insane over not knowing what it means. Thanks!
The definition of "cream puff" used as a slang term for a car means "an old, especially secondhand car that's in very good condition."
I think many people mistakenly apply this term to rebuilt or restored cars. I take the meaning as defined above... applying to an original car in very good condition.
A complete redesign is slated for the 2005 model year and will probably be out in the Spring of 2003.
http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=635&CatID=1
Notice that Saturn and Infiniti are #1 and #2. Chrysler must have been dead last in 2001.
Steve
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The text was taken exclusively from Car-Truck.com, it was their report. And I thought I followed their required protocol by properly crediting them:
"Any publication that reports on the copyrighted contents of this column without giving proper credit to www.car-truck.com as its source may be prosecuted for copyright infringement".
But I see your point, better to just post a few highlights rather than the entire article.
Note that on the list Chrysler is ABOVE average in reliabilty, AND that there is less than a 5% difference in points between the Infinity ratings and Chrysler. Of course Infinity is high on the list due to the great cars they build, the Nissan Pathfinders/QX4 are a different story as you saw by the number of TSB's issued. By the way, I understand you have recently made your first trip to the Infinity dealer for warranty service, just a couple months old and the door seals are already falling off. Looks like Infinity is heading downward on the list while Jeep is heading upward, it won't be long before they will cross and Jeep will surpass...
A 31% improvement by the Jeep brand shows a remarkable effort and credit should be given where credit is due. They have totally turned things around the past few years. I rest my case once again.
I guess we can consider you a "publication", since you're publishing good posts here :-)
Steve
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I am interested in how you separated the Jeep score from the Chrysler score in that report. It appeared to me that all of the DC products were lumped together. Don't they all get serviced at the same shops?
Maybe you don't, and maybe others would? Same could be said about any kind of part failure on any vehicle. Some people will be bothered by them and others won't.
Seriously, enjoy your "most reliable car on the road." In the meantime, we'll continue to enjoy our so-called "not as reliable" JGC's. ;0)
Hmmm, I wonder if Jeep Grand Cherokee door seals would fit on the QX4, might be a better way for BigO to go...
If they cut corners on the door seals most likely they cut corners elsewhere. Looks like "the most reliable vehicle on the road" isn't so reliable after all. 3 months old and problems already!! Oh yeah, I have never once had my Jeep in the shop for any repairs. Score: BigOrange "1", TLoke1 "0".
The obsession with having the last word is interesting tloke and the scorekeeping is childish even if it were true.
My JGC's haven't been "perfect" yet problems have been infrequent and nothing my dealer can't handle. My 99 went in for brake rotors and a driveshaft in the 3 years I had it. Pretty insignificant, even by your standards, right? Everything I've seen so far on my 02 points to a much better built vehicle than my 99 was. If I have problems, I'll do like everyone else does and take it in for repair. I certainly won't lose any sleep over it.
But even small problems (like door seals?) that happen frequently can add up to a lot of frustration and the feeling that your vehicle isn't as reliable as you originally thought. Time will tell, as it does for everybody. I hope you can speak this highly of your vehicle after 3 or so years of driving it. Good luck! ;0)
I do consider the brake rotors and the driveshaft major issues. Anything that has to do with the safety or runnability of the vehicle is major.
Even though many people complain out here about these, neither of these problems have led to part failures or accidents. That's the key, and why I don't consider them major problems. They've been noise and vibration annoyances, nothing more. And they're easily corrected.
Do I need an exorcist? In all of the discussions I read, only one person seems to have had the same problem. (kupper25, May 15, 2002) Was your problem fixed? Has anyone else seen the same problem?
A low or dead battery seems to be the cause and these people have been saying that you should check the battery for a proper charge and to make sure the battery connections are clean and tight. Failing that, the majority reported that replacing the battery clears the problem up.
You may want to try this first. At most, you'll be out the cost of a new battery... which is considerably less than the dealer will charge you to find and fix the problem. They'd probably replace the battery themselves anyway.
I dont understand, The 2004 model year will start in January 2003??? And the 2005 will be out in Spring of 2003, do you mean 2004?? I have a 98 JGC and love it but also was expecting a redesign coming up so plan on waiting. Just wanting a little clarification as im looking forward to the redesign...Jeff
It is correct that the 2003 model production runs just a few short months, ending December 2002. The 2004 model will be introduced very early, with production starting January 2003, and should start to be available on dealer lots sometime in late January or early February 2003.
Ford did this with their "all-new" 2002 Explorer, introducing it around February 2001, about 7-8 months ahead of the normal fall release schedules. In fact, Ford started building the 2002 Explorers in December of 2000!
The current JGC design has been around since 1999, and with the all-new design still a couple years away Jeep needs to have some "refreshing" quickly to stay competitive, hence the early 2004 model release and changes.
I had this happen about a month ago. I was ready to have the computer module replaced, but it was just a battery. I'm glad that was all it was, but I was very upset that something so simple as a dying battery can cause those kinds of freaky things.
I didn't think it was the battery as the lights all worked brightly, just the dash was spinning, and the doors wouldn't unlock with the key fob.
Good luck.
-Paul