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enjoy.
I have been visiting this site for about 3 weeks and have found it very informative. I am coming out of a Land Rover Discovery lease in mid-December and have narrowed my new SUV choices to three 2003 models - the ML320, the MDX, or another Discovery. My biggest fear with the ML320 is all I have read about the problems. Anyone out there who can persuade me I should not worry about the problerms? Has MB overcome these in 2003? Thanks for any insight.
Any ideas on where one could still find a third row seat for a '99 M320?
Steve, Host
CR trumpets poor build quality even tho all their little bubbles are colored "red" from '00 and on. No one remembers a niggly longer than a MB reviewer, and the only MB that CR has ever approved of is the E-Class. CR doesn't think anyone should actually own a SUV and that's what colors their view; so, they prefer any cross-over type vehicle. What they don't get is that ML's are the safest of all the SUVs, even compared to the cross-over types, for the OTHER driver, which is a big issue for SUVs that can drive right over other cars in collisions. Only the ML's bumpers are truly designed from the drawing table to the finished product to match up with the bumper's of passenger cars (MLs aren't converted trucks, or raised station wagons or raised vans), and with ESP, MLs can safely drive around mishaps better than the roll-over types. Some of the SUVs will claim to share this bumper-friendly attribute but if you look and compare you'll notice that only MLs have done what it takes. For instance, if you see a SUV with the tow hitch under the rear bumper, you know right off that the bumper must be higher than for MLs which have the tow hitch going through the bumper.
Oil changes have been covered under MB's 50k warranty from '00 and on-- our '00 ML came with Mobil-1 synthetic from day-1. After over 50K miles and the regular FSS intervals, which are more than 12K for our type of driving, it has never required add'l oil between changes and the oil stays the same color as if it was just poured from the bottle.
The dealer we dealt with provides MB loaners so I could have lived with a problem or two. Not all MB dealers provide this level of service but it payed off for our dealer as we replaced our '94 Honda with a '02 "C" based on our positive ML experiences and good service and that MB also has been great with nearly 10K miles so far.
If you're thinking about a 320, I'd check out the brakes for '03. So far, the 430s and 500s have gotten the biggest brakes and widest tires and that gives them the best braking of the MLs, even on wet pavement. Maybe narrower tires would be better in snow but I'd still prefer the bigger brakes. Maybe the bigger brakes will show up on the 320s for '03. That would clinch it for me if I was a new buyer.
What a car for the money.
But it's a long term study and the buggy intro year is still hurting their numbers.
Steve, Host
Actually, JD Power's mid-term quality surveys (based on 1-3 years) on the 2000 and 2001 M-class also come back with below-average scores. Initial quality survey scores (just 90 days, though) for 2000-2002 have all been below average.
CR trumpets poor build quality even tho all their little bubbles are colored "red" from '00 and on.
I'm afraid if one of your assertions of CR bias is based on the fact that more bubbles are colored red, then you have to read the front part of the reliability summaries. It shows that for each category, the average for all vehicles is a certain score, and in fact the average for all vehicles in each category is usually a "half red" or a "full red" in each. That's why a vehicle can have mostly or even all half-red bubbles and still be considered below average overall.
Those bubbles as used in the reliability category scores merely reflect a percentage of repairs (somewhat misleading since as used in general scoring, the bubbles truly mean a relationship to average). CR shows that as each year progresses, the average of all vehicles improves, and their overall score for a vehicle is based on where it stands relative to that average.
No doubt the M-class has improved significantly, and CR's reliability surveys actually confirms that. But at the same time, all vehicles on average improve, and MB is still struggling to close that gap, even in the vehicle's fifth model year.
But even CR states that the M-class is an otherwise excellent vehicle, so I don't think there is any bias involved. MB has admitted to quality control issues and is working hard to improve, and hopefully we'll see more fruits of that effort.
Mike
Mike
'03 ML should be quite reliable. If you have concerns, extended warranty from MB will cover you up to 8 yrs. Discovery is awesome looking. No need to mention, it's the one with the legendary off-road capability.
I hope that this helps.
Wally
What a car for the money."
I wonder if you are saying that sarcastically because the GX470 is a 4Runner in Lexus clothing. It's small and not especially powerful, you can get a much better deal by buying the 4Runner instead.
Having gone long beyond mere objective reporting many years ago, CR and JD Power’s self-aggrandizing pronouncements, all to the considerable enabling of those that are the beneficiaries, have become nothing more than the newest marketing tools, and amount to little more than the latest form of auto review.
The problem is, nobody rates the reviewers. Perhaps the reviews of auto reviewers should have their product reviewed by the auto manufacturers: “I expected more from this writer when the pen was put to the paper-- so many adjectives to the mile and yet, no appreciation for the intrinsic and too much wallowing in personal ephemeral joys.”
I think clothing is important. George Armani is very different from GAP.
What I try to say is that GX470 is a much better car than ML500. That's just my opinion. You may think differently. Which is a good thing. That's why we have so many choises.
Mark
True, but if you put an Armani label on a GAP product and charge Armani prices, then it's a rip-off, just like what Toyota has been doing with Lexus for years.
"What I try to say is that GX470 is a much better car than ML500. That's just my opinion."
What do you base your opinion on? Do you own both vehicles? Do you know anything about either vehicle?
Automotive News / September 16, 2002
Kunihiro Hoshi, chief engineer for the GX 470, spoke with Staff Reporter Mark Rechtin at the press launch of the GX 470.
The GX 470 shares a platform with the new Toyota 4Runner. How is the GX 470 different?
Basically, the engine and transmission and brakes are the same, but there also are many differences. The actual body shell, the body-in-white, is different. For example, the ... side glass and front sill are much thicker on the GX, which means you need a different body structure. Also, the suspension settings are much different, because we are dealing with a luxury mid-sized vehicle. We focused on vibration isolation, sound isolation and ride comfort, whereas the 4Runner focuses more on the direct feeling of handling.
Since this was a new segment for Lexus, which vehicles did you benchmark during development?
For interior quality, we benchmarked the BMW X5 from a design and product-quality perspective. From the driving dynamics point of view, the X5 is very nice but is not so nice in the second passenger seat because it is harsh and noisy. For the second seat we wanted the comfort of the Lexus LS 430 or the LX 470. Since I was on the LS 400 development team, I wanted to create a sport-utility with noise, vibration and harshness specs more on that level. We could not find any points on the Mercedes-Benz ML that we wanted to include in the GX. It's not so special.
Steve, Host
Steve, Host
Cheers
Pat
And I still don't see much difference between the GX and the 4Runner, the inside is the same. All that's changed are the windows, suspension settings and the outside sheetmetal. That doesn't much make it a different product.
We looked at both of the other vehicles you mentioned. They are both fine, however, the Discovery is under powered, especially given that it is a V-8. The MDX, to me felt like driving a mini-van. It lacked the wow factor (important when your spending $40k) that I have enjoyed with my ML. We also looked at the BMW, nice vehicle, but alot of money for a small SUV. Hardly any cargo room, not to mention no 3rd row, which I wanted. While I like the hide away feature of the MDX 3rd row, I believe the ML provide more room for the 3rd row passenger. This is due to the fact that the rear seat slides 5 inches forward, providing more leg room. My knees touched the back of the rear seat in the MDX.
Like you, I followed this site for a good month before making my purchase. I concluded that the 2002 and 2003 model years have overcome the quality issues that plagued the 98-2000 models. Good luck on your decision. What ever you buy, don't spend too much time second guessing your decision.
My driveway has an uphill incline, it's snowing right now 11/27/02 the ML couldn't go up my driveway. I cautiously reversed down the hill, turned off the ESP, tried to go up again, still no traction at all, tried again in LOW gear, no luck. I finally i pulled back at considerable distant got a running start and spun all the way up the driveway.
I have a Toyota Land Cruiser and a Geo Tracker both vehicles have no problem going up the driveway with this storm.
I contacted my MB dealer, they graciously offered to have vehicle at their shop this morning but I made appt. for Friday 11/29 instead. I love the ML for the safety factors, the ride, handling and the "WOW" factor but if ML cannot make it in my driveway on snow days then I'll sell it in a heartbeat.
Anyone with this problem or suggestions?
Your tires are probably to blame.
My driveway has an uphill incline, it's snowing right now 11/27/02 the ML couldn't go up my driveway. I cautiously reversed down the hill, turned off the ESP, tried to go up again, still no traction at all, tried again in LOW gear, no luck. I finally i pulled back at considerable distant got a running start and spun all the way up the driveway.
I have a Toyota Land Cruiser and a Geo Tracker both vehicles have no problem going up the driveway with this storm.
I contacted my MB dealer, they graciously offered to have vehicle at their shop this morning but I made appt. for Friday 11/29 instead. I love the ML for the safety factors, the ride, handling and the "WOW" factor but if ML cannot make it in my driveway on snow days then I'll sell it in a heartbeat.
Anyone with this problem or suggestions?
Many say the ML320 has better traction on the snow because the narrower tires dig better compared to the wider tires of the ML430 or 500 because they tend to float on the snow, anyway snow tires are the big factor, they are silica ingregnated.
Good luck and don't give up on the ML, it's a great foul weather truck.
Cheers
Pat
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/
Steve, Host
Steve, Host