Mercedes-Benz M-class (ML320, ML350, ML500 and ML55) 2005 and earlier

thor8 · November 2002

Janoo, the only thing you have to look for is observe the proper break in procedures ( breaks included), thats all,
enjoy.

tashwort · November 2002

Hi all-
I have been visiting this site for about 3 weeks and have found it very informative. I am coming out of a Land Rover Discovery lease in mid-December and have narrowed my new SUV choices to three 2003 models - the ML320, the MDX, or another Discovery. My biggest fear with the ML320 is all I have read about the problems. Anyone out there who can persuade me I should not worry about the problerms? Has MB overcome these in 2003? Thanks for any insight.

pablo_l · November 2002

..oh great, MB dealer tells me the thrid row seat for the '99 is sold out, and that's it. Where are the times where MB had the reputation for trying hard? I a telling you, back in Germany -where I lived for 10 years- you would never get such a short final reply - they'd volunteer to try to locate one for you. The arrogance in MB and BMW dealerships in the US drives me nuts! What short-sighted idiocy! As if it's so hard to be more accommodating, actually it should make their miserable job more fun. Sorry, just had to vent.

Any ideas on where one could still find a third row seat for a '99 M320?

psedrish · November 2002

Try E-Bay

stever · November 2002

or a wrecking/salvage yard....

Steve, Host

mac320 · November 2002

Fantastic engine, drivetrain. Huge oil capacity. MLs have provided good reliability since 2000. MB keeps adding improvements every year, and '03 is probably improved for that reason, but that's to provide more benefits in a competitive market, not to address lingering quality issues.

CR trumpets poor build quality even tho all their little bubbles are colored "red" from '00 and on. No one remembers a niggly longer than a MB reviewer, and the only MB that CR has ever approved of is the E-Class. CR doesn't think anyone should actually own a SUV and that's what colors their view; so, they prefer any cross-over type vehicle. What they don't get is that ML's are the safest of all the SUVs, even compared to the cross-over types, for the OTHER driver, which is a big issue for SUVs that can drive right over other cars in collisions. Only the ML's bumpers are truly designed from the drawing table to the finished product to match up with the bumper's of passenger cars (MLs aren't converted trucks, or raised station wagons or raised vans), and with ESP, MLs can safely drive around mishaps better than the roll-over types. Some of the SUVs will claim to share this bumper-friendly attribute but if you look and compare you'll notice that only MLs have done what it takes. For instance, if you see a SUV with the tow hitch under the rear bumper, you know right off that the bumper must be higher than for MLs which have the tow hitch going through the bumper.

Oil changes have been covered under MB's 50k warranty from '00 and on-- our '00 ML came with Mobil-1 synthetic from day-1. After over 50K miles and the regular FSS intervals, which are more than 12K for our type of driving, it has never required add'l oil between changes and the oil stays the same color as if it was just poured from the bottle.

The dealer we dealt with provides MB loaners so I could have lived with a problem or two. Not all MB dealers provide this level of service but it payed off for our dealer as we replaced our '94 Honda with a '02 "C" based on our positive ML experiences and good service and that MB also has been great with nearly 10K miles so far.

If you're thinking about a 320, I'd check out the brakes for '03. So far, the 430s and 500s have gotten the biggest brakes and widest tires and that gives them the best braking of the MLs, even on wet pavement. Maybe narrower tires would be better in snow but I'd still prefer the bigger brakes. Maybe the bigger brakes will show up on the 320s for '03. That would clinch it for me if I was a new buyer.

mouseonline · November 2002

You should also conside the coming LEXUS GX470.
What a car for the money.

stever · November 2002

JD Power isn't real high on the M-Class reliability either. (Forbes)
But it's a long term study and the buggy intro year is still hurting their numbers.

Steve, Host

wmquan · November 2002

JD Power isn't real high on the M-Class reliability either. But it's a long term study and the buggy intro year is still hurting their numbers.

Actually, JD Power's mid-term quality surveys (based on 1-3 years) on the 2000 and 2001 M-class also come back with below-average scores. Initial quality survey scores (just 90 days, though) for 2000-2002 have all been below average.

CR trumpets poor build quality even tho all their little bubbles are colored "red" from '00 and on.

I'm afraid if one of your assertions of CR bias is based on the fact that more bubbles are colored red, then you have to read the front part of the reliability summaries. It shows that for each category, the average for all vehicles is a certain score, and in fact the average for all vehicles in each category is usually a "half red" or a "full red" in each. That's why a vehicle can have mostly or even all half-red bubbles and still be considered below average overall.

Those bubbles as used in the reliability category scores merely reflect a percentage of repairs (somewhat misleading since as used in general scoring, the bubbles truly mean a relationship to average). CR shows that as each year progresses, the average of all vehicles improves, and their overall score for a vehicle is based on where it stands relative to that average.

No doubt the M-class has improved significantly, and CR's reliability surveys actually confirms that. But at the same time, all vehicles on average improve, and MB is still struggling to close that gap, even in the vehicle's fifth model year.

But even CR states that the M-class is an otherwise excellent vehicle, so I don't think there is any bias involved. MB has admitted to quality control issues and is working hard to improve, and hopefully we'll see more fruits of that effort.

derel2 · November 2002

I apologize that this is not a question related to the ML series but can anyone tell me what "kompressor" stands for that I occasionally see on the back of some of the Mercedes sedans?

Mike

derel2 · November 2002

How does one remove the black plastic engine cover on the 1999 ML 430. Does it just snap off or are there some sort of fasteners holding it on that need to be removed?

Mike

kiiwii · November 2002

All are good choices. MDX should be a reliable SUV, but knowing it's a Honda Odyssey minivan with bigger wheels (yeah yeah, I know it's a bit more than that. don't attack me on this)...UGH!.. that really bugs me.

'03 ML should be quite reliable. If you have concerns, extended warranty from MB will cover you up to 8 yrs. Discovery is awesome looking. No need to mention, it's the one with the legendary off-road capability.

wniel · November 2002

Kompressor in German stands for Super charger. Typicaly, vehicles that have this have smaller engine displacement but yet can get the horsepower of the larger engines. I say typically because this is not always the case as the new E 500 AMG also is coming with the Kompressor and is boosting the horsepower up to somewhat over 450 and that is a high horsepower engine to start with.
I hope that this helps.
Wally

ctic · November 2002

"You should also conside the coming LEXUS GX470.
What a car for the money."

I wonder if you are saying that sarcastically because the GX470 is a 4Runner in Lexus clothing. It's small and not especially powerful, you can get a much better deal by buying the 4Runner instead.

mac320 · November 2002

If you put too much stock in CR and JD Power, you may miss a good bet. CR is mired in the weight of its own predisposition. JD Power mainly is reviewing the buyer not the car. For some old geezer, if a glove box light is out it's a major design defect. For a younger buyer, there's always more to be excited about and the first purchase is always better than the previous old beaters.

Having gone long beyond mere objective reporting many years ago, CR and JD Powers self-aggrandizing pronouncements, all to the considerable enabling of those that are the beneficiaries, have become nothing more than the newest marketing tools, and amount to little more than the latest form of auto review.

The problem is, nobody rates the reviewers. Perhaps the reviews of auto reviewers should have their product reviewed by the auto manufacturers: I expected more from this writer when the pen was put to the paper-- so many adjectives to the mile and yet, no appreciation for the intrinsic and too much wallowing in personal ephemeral joys.

bertram60 · November 2002

wmquan · November 2002

I don't think CR is as bad as some people think. I still find their surveys useful. The key is to take them as another (significant) source of input in specific areas, and not the gospel on all things automotive. E.g. one can dispense with their assessment of "sportiness" and "fun" since that is clearly not their focus. But their reliability/quality surveys are quite empirical. Some folks aren't happy with their results, but they should probably direct their indignation at the manufacturer and not the messenger.

mouseonline · November 2002

"I wonder if you are saying that sarcastically because the GX470 is a 4Runner in Lexus clothing. It's small and not especially powerful, you can get a much better deal by buying the 4Runner instead. "

I think clothing is important. George Armani is very different from GAP.
What I try to say is that GX470 is a much better car than ML500. That's just my opinion. You may think differently. Which is a good thing. That's why we have so many choises.

psedrish · November 2002

I rarely even look at them at all. For instance, the'd take all kinds of points away because the COMMAND center on the Benz is too confusing! I agree it may make for a bad rental car, but as an owner, it's a non-issue. I know where all the buttons are and what they do. With regard to reliability, I don't know but my MBs have been great. More impt (an intangible I guess), when I call, stuff happens. Mostly (even for svc) an new MB (a C or ML) is delivered to house or office the same day and the hassle factor is zero. I'm never going back to a car where svc is a humiliating, time-consuming ordeal of arguing with some svc writer that the "window seal leaks"....if I say it does, it does. I tried a Caddy after 9/11, but the ordeal was too much. I'm glad to be home.

mark156 · November 2002

mouseonline, is "George Armani" the American cousin of the Italian designer, Giorgio Armani? I wonder if "George" wears a "Rolodex" watch?

)

Mark

wmquan · November 2002

Yes, CR doesn't measure the dealership experience in vehicle ratings. It varies widely, even with MB. E.g. sounds like your dealer is great, delivering MB loaners to your home or office. Meanwhile, a number of other MB owners are going to the MB dealer, waiting around, and getting an Enterprise rental in the form of a Corolla or Grand Am. Quite a difference!

tarik · November 2002

mac320 · November 2002

It doesn't seem like the the LEXUS GX470 offers much competition in a comparison with the ML500. It's not a "What a car for the money," deal as was mentioned: the MSRPs are about the same. The ML has more power, torque; obviously stops quicker too--the ML has bigger brakes front and rear and wider tires. The GX is longer by about 5" but has a shorter wheelbase; and, with all that overhang, the GX still has less cargo capacity. The 4Runner and Pathfinder were never originally designed for V8s-- unless they've changed a lot, the GX's engine compartment must be very crowded.

psedrish · November 2002

I drove my wife's '02 ML today and I think it's pretty noisy (wind noise) compared to my '02 S or my last '97 S. Is this common at highway speeds?

ctic · November 2002

"I think clothing is important. George Armani is very different from GAP."

True, but if you put an Armani label on a GAP product and charge Armani prices, then it's a rip-off, just like what Toyota has been doing with Lexus for years.

"What I try to say is that GX470 is a much better car than ML500. That's just my opinion."

What do you base your opinion on? Do you own both vehicles? Do you know anything about either vehicle?

mouseonline · November 2002

Bye. See you at the other board.

mouseonline · November 2002

Last post.

Automotive News / September 16, 2002

Kunihiro Hoshi, chief engineer for the GX 470, spoke with Staff Reporter Mark Rechtin at the press launch of the GX 470.

The GX 470 shares a platform with the new Toyota 4Runner. How is the GX 470 different?

Basically, the engine and transmission and brakes are the same, but there also are many differences. The actual body shell, the body-in-white, is different. For example, the ... side glass and front sill are much thicker on the GX, which means you need a different body structure. Also, the suspension settings are much different, because we are dealing with a luxury mid-sized vehicle. We focused on vibration isolation, sound isolation and ride comfort, whereas the 4Runner focuses more on the direct feeling of handling.

Since this was a new segment for Lexus, which vehicles did you benchmark during development?

For interior quality, we benchmarked the BMW X5 from a design and product-quality perspective. From the driving dynamics point of view, the X5 is very nice but is not so nice in the second passenger seat because it is harsh and noisy. For the second seat we wanted the comfort of the Lexus LS 430 or the LX 470. Since I was on the LS 400 development team, I wanted to create a sport-utility with noise, vibration and harshness specs more on that level. We could not find any points on the Mercedes-Benz ML that we wanted to include in the GX. It's not so special.

stever · November 2002

Maybe we should edit the title of the "MB M-class vs Acura MDX vs Lexus RX300 vs BMW X5 vs Cadillac SRX" discussion to add the GX,470 since you seem to be looking for a comparison topic?

Steve, Host

she1122 · November 2002

I am looking for snow tires for my ML430. Costco does not carry them. I am cringing at what looks like about 180 dollars per tire. Does anyone have any suggestions that would lower the cost of 4 tires ?

stever · November 2002

Lots of good advice in the Tires, tires, tires discussion too. Not as active but maybe more on point is the Snow/Ice winter tires one. Check out the Tire Rack ad here too for some good info.

Steve, Host

kullenberg · November 2002

Having a 430 really limits your choices. Nokian makes a winter rated M/S tire that is excellent, but the size is a little off ( 275/60/17). I considered them for my 430, but went with the Michelin Cross Terrains, instead. They are a M/S rated tire, and they have done very well in the 2 or 3" of snow we have had so far. They are well sipped, so I expect they will be fine. EXPENSIVE!
Cheers
Pat

she1122 · November 2002

Thank you for your input. I had found the Tire Rack and was scrolling through the site. I will check on the Nokians. I bought the ML used and am thrilled to have it. It is still under warranty so I am watching my pennies. However, I live in Oregon and we want to go to the mountain for some skiing. Four tires really add up on cost !

mac320 · November 2002

"It's not so special." That is pretty funny. Mr. Hoshi say "GX not so special?" He's got guts!

ctic · November 2002

OK, so you base your opinion on an interview with the chief engineer for the GX470, think he's going to be unbiased? duh

And I still don't see much difference between the GX and the 4Runner, the inside is the same. All that's changed are the windows, suspension settings and the outside sheetmetal. That doesn't much make it a different product.

rvaughn4 · November 2002

I wrote for the first time two weeks ago(message #6345). I have owned my 2002 ML for over 5 months and have 7600 miles. I thoroughly enjoy the vehicle. We have had no problems and have been extremely pleased with the ride, the handling, the gas mileage (have a 320), and the very safe feeling you get knowing that you are surrounded by 10 air bags and are but a push button away from help with the tel-aid system. The vehicle has good braking ability and occasionally I like to play with the "auto-stick" transmission, which allows you to change gears. This is great when you need extra power for passing another vehicle. I should also note that my insurance was only $20 more per year over my 2000 Chrysler Town and Country Limited. The reason was the safety rating on the ML.

We looked at both of the other vehicles you mentioned. They are both fine, however, the Discovery is under powered, especially given that it is a V-8. The MDX, to me felt like driving a mini-van. It lacked the wow factor (important when your spending $40k) that I have enjoyed with my ML. We also looked at the BMW, nice vehicle, but alot of money for a small SUV. Hardly any cargo room, not to mention no 3rd row, which I wanted. While I like the hide away feature of the MDX 3rd row, I believe the ML provide more room for the 3rd row passenger. This is due to the fact that the rear seat slides 5 inches forward, providing more leg room. My knees touched the back of the rear seat in the MDX.

Like you, I followed this site for a good month before making my purchase. I concluded that the 2002 and 2003 model years have overcome the quality issues that plagued the 98-2000 models. Good luck on your decision. What ever you buy, don't spend too much time second guessing your decision.

mkwame · November 2002

We bought my wife's ML November 01, we didn't have any snow last winter in CT.

My driveway has an uphill incline, it's snowing right now 11/27/02 the ML couldn't go up my driveway. I cautiously reversed down the hill, turned off the ESP, tried to go up again, still no traction at all, tried again in LOW gear, no luck. I finally i pulled back at considerable distant got a running start and spun all the way up the driveway.

I have a Toyota Land Cruiser and a Geo Tracker both vehicles have no problem going up the driveway with this storm.

I contacted my MB dealer, they graciously offered to have vehicle at their shop this morning but I made appt. for Friday 11/29 instead. I love the ML for the safety factors, the ride, handling and the "WOW" factor but if ML cannot make it in my driveway on snow days then I'll sell it in a heartbeat.

Anyone with this problem or suggestions?

fedlawman · November 2002

AWD is great in inclement weather but ultimately, traction comes where the rubber meets the road.

Your tires are probably to blame.

mkwame · November 2002

I have 31k on the original Dunlop tires.

mkwame · November 2002

We bought my wife's ML November 01, we didn't have any snow last winter in CT.

My driveway has an uphill incline, it's snowing right now 11/27/02 the ML couldn't go up my driveway. I cautiously reversed down the hill, turned off the ESP, tried to go up again, still no traction at all, tried again in LOW gear, no luck. I finally i pulled back at considerable distant got a running start and spun all the way up the driveway.

I have a Toyota Land Cruiser and a Geo Tracker both vehicles have no problem going up the driveway with this storm.

I contacted my MB dealer, they graciously offered to have vehicle at their shop this morning but I made appt. for Friday 11/29 instead. I love the ML for the safety factors, the ride, handling and the "WOW" factor but if ML cannot make it in my driveway on snow days then I'll sell it in a heartbeat.

Anyone with this problem or suggestions?

thor8 · November 2002

The first thing that comes to mind is tires if you dont have traction. If there is one thing than the Ml is famous for is the handling in adverse weather, testimonials here and in other forums abound of first time buyers thrilled by the ability of the ML to move when other vehicles failed.
Many say the ML320 has better traction on the snow because the narrower tires dig better compared to the wider tires of the ML430 or 500 because they tend to float on the snow, anyway snow tires are the big factor, they are silica ingregnated.

kullenberg · November 2002

I have to think that tires are the problem here. I have a 99 430, in the mtns of western NC, and we get a lot of snow, although little last winter. I replaced the OEM Dunlops (275/55/17) at approx 20K mi, with Mich. LTX M/S tires in a 265/70/17 size, and they were great, but they made the truck sit 2.5" higher, and it was unstable. This past summer I put a on set of Mich. Cross Terrains, in the proper size (I have a very helpful tire merchant, and he gave a good allowance on the LTX). The tread pattern on the X_Terrains is very similar to the LTX, with more sipps. So far this winter, they have been great, thru several snow falls. My drive is quite steep, and gravel, and never gets plowed. Both the LTX and the X Terrains have no problem getting up the drive. When it's really slick, I recomend turning off the ESP, so that engine power doesn't cut back. Nokian is another brand you might consider, I don't know if they make anything in your size. http://www.nokiantires.com/ Here is a tire size calculator to help compare diff sizes http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

Good luck and don't give up on the ML, it's a great foul weather truck.

Cheers

Pat

wniel · November 2002

I have a 98 ML 320 that I bought new and have driven it considerably in the mountain snow. We have a condo in Mammoth Lakes CA. Which is in the high Sierra and never felt like I couldn't go where I needed to go because lack of traction. I replaced the original Dunlops at 45K miles and put Dunlops on again, only the next level up and have been very pleased with them. While driving in the mountain snow, it gave me the feeling that it was impossible for me to get stuck unless I drove it into the ditch. Now if one is driving on ice, then all bets are off as it's very difficult to get traction unless you put chains on all four wheels.

califjohn · November 2002

info on the new ML350? I may have missed it but I would appreciate if if someone could give me a link to any info on the introduction, and performance of the new V6. Many thanks!

thor8 · November 2002

Wofgang pages offer a wealth of information on anything related to the ML.

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/

califjohn · November 2002

for the link! Great site and I will use it. I couldn't find out when the 350 would go on sale tho'. I did find out all I wanted to know about the new engine and performance. After looking at Wolfgang's site and the info on the new and bigger (more "G"like?)2004 ML and the return of diesels to the US market I may wait for a bit. Thanks again!

mac320 · November 2002

The 3.7L-powered ML replaces the 320 and has been on the www.mbusa.com web site for a couple of weeks.

alaskaml · November 2002

Something is wrong with your ML. I have driven more than 100,000 miles with MLs in Alaska in every kind of terrain and weather condition we have here. Deep snow on steep grades is how I drive the last 1/2 mile to get home each night in winter. Sometimes I do this on pure ice that it is impossible to stand on (then I use chains on all 4 wheels) The ML has never had a problem. Last winter I drove the thing home and the snow was above the bumper. I was amazed that it could pull up a steep grade through that stuff. The ML is bad [non-permissible content removed].

stever · November 2002

Welcome to Town Hall, Alaskaml. Sounds like you live near Golden View maybe? (I put in ~20 yrs. in Rogers Park). There's a Rover driver in Stuckagain who hangs out here you need to meet (Nanuq). He's into snow over the bumper too!

Steve, Host

alaskaml · November 2002

Not Stuckagain......Eagle River. I live at about 1500' back in the Valley.

stever · November 2002

Oh, that's even "better" . I have visions of a Gelaendewagen in your future! Maybe it'll even snow up your way soon and cover up the glaciation.

Steve, Host

Mercedes-Benz M-class (ML320, ML350, ML500 and ML55) 2005 and earlier

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