Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

berri · October 2014

Those MM Lincoln ads made me laugh before they started spoofing them. The guy comes across to me as either drunk or one of those odd characters you run into while in college. But then he may click with the younger generation, I don't really know much about him.

I'm wondering if one of Cadillac's problems is the bold styling? You don't see much of that with the Germans and when Lexus has applied it, I'm not so sure it has been all that successful.

akirby · October 2014

That's just his personality. It is odd but it's genuine and it's a big part of his popularity. He's a very well known movie star.

I think Caddilac's problem is a) they're making super low volume vehicles like the CTS coupe, wagon and ELR. and b) they're targeting buyers who would never consider a Cadillac (or a Lincoln for that matter).

hpmctorque · October 2014

Here's the latest on where Ford is taking Lincoln, from today's Automotive news...

http://www.autonews.com/article/20141024/RETAIL03/141029873/ford-plans-to-overhaul-lincoln-with-5-billion-push-report-says

akirby · October 2014

Seems clear that Fields is willing to invest a lot more in Lincoln. From the description it sounds like they're doing an Audi style platform that will cover sedans and crossovers with RWD, AWD and fwd on the lower end. It will also be used on fords - probably the Taurus and explorer.

I still think we'll see something based on the mustang platform.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

The obstacle I see that has to be met is that Audi has convinced most people that it uses only Audi platforms--if someone even utters a remark that an Audi "uses VW parts" the company bristles and defends itself by saying that each VW sourced part is re-engineered. But I'm not sure Lincoln is going to be able to create such a clean divorce from Ford.

We'll see.

akirby · October 2014

They don't have to. They just need to build great cars and the naysayers won't matter. The MkC has proven that. Those kind of platform nobs who look down on shared platforms or components are probably not going to buy Lincolns anyway.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

Maybe so, but those platform snobs might be just who Lincoln wants to sell to.

The automotive graveyard is filled with great cars.

akirby · October 2014

I just don't think real buyers care very much about platform sharing. It's a popular topic for gearheads but just like magazine comparisons it doesn't appear to have any real effect on sales.

hpmctorque · October 2014

akirby said:
I just don't think real buyers care very much about platform sharing. It's a popular topic for gearheads but just like magazine comparisons it doesn't appear to have any real effect on sales.

I agree that the main factor in a vehicle's success are the attributes of the product. For luxury car buyers, though, differentiation from mass market models and exclusivity play important roles. greater application of RWD archtecture in Lincolns than in Fords, with the AWD option for RWD models, is one important way to achieve greater differentiation and exclusivity. That's one reason why Cadillac currently outsells Lincoln, in my opinion. It also helps explain the success of Merecedes, BMW, Lexus and Infiniti midsize and large vehicles. That's because RWD is more associcated with performance and more satisfying driving dynamics than FWD. FWD vs. RWD was less important in the less powerful luxury cars of the 1980s and 1990s than it is today.

Some will quickly counter that Audi has achieved success while using FWD architecture. My answer is that there are always exceptions. Acura, Volvo, Lincoln, and of course Saab, have been much less successful with their cars in recent years. I'm not saying that RWD is a magic bullet, only that it's a positive differentiator in the luxury segment. That's especially true for sedans and sporty cars.

akirby · October 2014

It's not so much RWD per se - it's the limitations of a transverse FWD architecture on handling, front end design and power. Even though Audi is fwd the engine is longitudinal which makes up for a lot of those shortcomings.

hpmctorque · October 2014

akirby said:
It's not so much RWD per se - it's the limitations of a transverse FWD architecture on handling, front end design and power. Even though Audi is fwd the engine is longitudinal which makes up for a lot of those shortcomings.

How does positioning the engine longitudinally compensate for FWD's shortcomings, such as torque-steer and front end plowing, for example?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

If anyone shopping for a high-end Lincoln in the future even gets a whiff of a Taurus, they're going to pass on it IMO.

akirby · October 2014

hpmctorque said:

How does positioning the engine longitudinally compensate for FWD's shortcomings, such as torque-steer and front end plowing, for example?

Slightly better weight distribution for one since the tranny is in the middle of the car - 55/45 instead of 60/40. It may allow the front wheels to be placed a bit further forward.

Not a huge difference but slightly better than a transverse setup.

It also allows larger engines and more power to be sent to the rear including continuously like Audi's Quattro. And the same engine can be used for FWD, AWD and RWD applications.

explorerx4 · October 2014

I can't believe how many spoofs of the MM MKC commercials are out there. Good way to waste some time.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2014

And good free PR for Lincoln as well. Can you imagine how much that free airtime would cost?

[Deleted User] · November 2014

Good that the MKC is doing OK and the MKX is about to be re-released. As far as passenger cars go, Ford/Lincoln is not doing so well. On cars, it is Toyota, followed by Chevrolet, Honda, Nissan and then Ford. Thank goodness for the F150.

explorerx4 · November 2014

@Gregg_vw, They all wish they the had an F150.

akirby · November 2014

Fusion ATPs are $4k higher than Camry. And Lincoln was profitable without the MKC. It's not all about sales volumes.

stever · December 2014

This post could be placed in Road Trip or Classic Cars just as easily, but I took a shuttle service from El Paso to home tonight. The ride was a Town Car, vintage unknown. The shuttle service has three of them; one is barely broken in with 115,000 miles and the granddaddy has around 640,000 miles on it. The one that I rode in was cruising along with 380,000 miles.

The driver said they were meticulous with maintenance but otherwise just drove them. The idea of having to replace them at some point really wasn't on their radar.

hpmctorque · December 2014

Yeah, some of those Town Cars used for livery service rack up amazing mileage, as do Crown Vics used for taxi service. Since Southwest Texas and New Mexico are low humidity areas, rust isn't a problem as these vehicles age. Eventually all components wear out, but if the body remains sound components can be swapped out, as needed. Apparently, since a 200,000+ mile car is ~90% depreciated, keeping these cars in service is more economical than trading them for more fuel efficient ones.

akirby · December 2014

Lincoln just announced they're switching from THX to Harman Revel high end stereo systems. I assume this will be similar to the Mark Levinson Lexus systems and another step towards making Lincoln a true luxury brand along with Black Label and upgraded dealerships.

fintail · December 2014

Yesterday I saw a MKT with "Town Car" badging on the side.

stever · January 2015

"Four luxury brands had consumers trading in their luxury ride for a mass-market vehicle more often than not. Leading the exodus charge was Lincoln, with Ford's struggling luxury brand seeing nearly seven of every 10 consumers trade in its vehicles for a non-luxury ride."

Bad News for Ford's and General Motors' Luxury Brands (fool.com)

akirby · January 2015

What a terrible conclusion. Look at the average age of the Lincolns that are traded in on a non luxury model - 9 years. That means some are probably 10-12 years old and there was nothing much luxury about those older models. Same could be said for Cadillac.

If they were selling the same vehicles now that they were 8-12 years ago then it might mean something but they're not.

And that's IF the numbers are accurate. I have a feeling that was probably a very small sample from Edmunds since I don't think automakers or dealers regularly report such statistics.

Don't get your automotive predictions from the Fool.

stever · January 2015

Okay, but that graphic came straight from Edmunds.

[Deleted User] · January 2015

Not surprising at all. No need to even really discuss it. Both Cadillac and Lincoln are fighting their way back in different ways. Cadillac is obviously doing better than Lincoln, but its sales are not anywhere near where the company would like to see them.Lincoln sales are picking up, but we have to admit they are picking up from a very low place. Let's see how these brands are doing a couple of years from now.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2015

I see the graph as a good thing. Lincoln has to do what Cadillac decided to do --that is, Fire All Their Old Customers.

Harley Davidson did the same exact thing decades ago and it helped them immensely. Now a gentleman can ride a Harley and hopefully, someone under 80 can drive a Cadillac and the Lincoln.

You don't have to build the best car, (or motorcycle) in the world---in fact, neither Lincoln nor Harley could build it, at least not at a price point that made any sense whatsoever.

So rather than compete with Lexus or Mercedes, what you do is come close enough, and add value + an attractive New Image.

I know---sounds simple on paper---but it isn't of course.

fintail · January 2015

Gentlemen ride Harleys?

A friend of mine, my age (30s) is still won over by the MKZ and would consider one when his Prius lease is up, so the brand isn't completely hopeless.

ab348 · January 2015

fintail said:
Gentlemen ride Harleys?

A friend of mine, my age (30s) is still won over by the MKZ and would consider one when his Prius lease is up, so the brand isn't completely hopeless.

There is always a lunatic fringe for any brand.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2015

You bet. Harley is re-branding like nobody's business: (and this dealer is in OKLAHOMA !!)

ab348 said:

fintail said:
Gentlemen ride Harleys?

A friend of mine, my age (30s) is still won over by the MKZ and would consider one when his Prius lease is up, so the brand isn't completely hopeless.
There is always a lunatic fringe for any brand.

fintail · January 2015

If that's a real H-D helmet, it needs leather, studs, and a $1200 price tag. In my area anyway, they mostly seem to sell to flamboyant older guys who still think 1972 biker movies are cool, and a few younger guys who think a vibrating bike and some questionable facial hair make them look tough. Many are the accountants during the week - suburban rebel on the weekend types, so they might carry a laptop

My friend has probably been described as a lunatic, maybe it's a demographic Lincoln can chase. I know what his next car won't be. He's fascinated by the MKZ pano roof, and doesn't mind the premium over a loaded Fusion - but the lease rates the last time he looked weren't terribly competitive.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2015

Well that's the brilliance of Harley marketing--they turned mediocrity into gold.

akirby · January 2015

Caddy is dropping CTS prices up to $3K and making $2200 worth of options standard at no extra cost due to poor sales and high inventory levels. ATS is down 33%. CTS down 7%. XTS off 50%. Way too much inventory.

But hey, how about those BMW killers?

berri · January 2015

I think both Cadillac and Lincoln need to figure out how to improve their depreciation rates if they are going to be strong luxury competitors. That Cadillac example is just another example of what over pricing can do to a model and it's brand's reputation.

berri · January 2015

So I'm looking at Detroit auto show stuff and see the upcoming revised MKX crossover. Lots of MKC styling cues. Then I read while it will be a 2016, it won't have the all new and supposedly much improved version 3 Ford My Touch/Synch coming out for 2016 models. What the heck? How can you seriously claim you are out to make Lincoln a real luxury line again, and then cut corners like this? It just doesn't make sense. I can already hear the "it's just another Ford Edge" talk if cost cutting like this is going to keep taking place. Looks like a nice vehicle, but more dumb management decisions. Maybe the new system won't be ready yet. But then, don't release a new luxury model if it's not ready yet - just hurts the car's image upon launch.

akirby · January 2015

They're not cutting any corners. Sync 3 just isn't ready yet. There is also a good chance that there will be a Lincoln specific version with more features that they'll unveil later.

Do you really think they should delay the launch of a brand new vehicle with a brand new engine just because the new version of an infotainment system isn't ready yet? How does that make any sense?

Isn't the 2.7LEB with 330 hp and 370+ lb/ft of torque more important and more relevant?

[Deleted User] · January 2015

The MKX has already been delayed. Now they are talking next fall before sales begin. Let's not hold it up any longer, just to get some newer electronics. Too bad they won't have a better transmission to begin with. Six speeds are old school in that class now. Caddy will have their new SRX soon after. Let a new fight begin...

Ford made a big splash at NAIAS with the GT (WOW!!!), the 2017 Raptor and 350GTR. I wonder though if more effort could have been put into bringing more mainstream models to market sooner. Lincoln is doing well with the MKC and MKZ, but badly needs more products. No one should even buy the MKS, given how it is so outclassed by the competition, and the MKT hardly even counts as a model with its slow sales. Maybe Lincoln will pull some surprises in the next year or two, like Ford did with the awesone awesome awesome GT, and Buick with its Avenir concept (an extraordinarily beautiful large car).

Here's hoping. I must say it is refreshing to see some unexpected product proposals. Ford kept rumors of another GT under tight wraps until just a few months ago, and no drawings or photos were leaked. I kinda like that.

stever · January 2015

akirby said:
Do you really think they should delay the launch of a brand new vehicle with a brand new engine just because the new version of an infotainment system isn't ready yet?

Isn't the 2.7LEB with 330 hp and 370+ lb/ft of torque more important and more relevant?

I dunno, there's a lot of people who really don't care about all that HP and torque. They are on the phone all day and want the voice activation (plus voice activated music), the concierge functions and the nav. The swipe screen like their iPad is important to some too.

Anymore, not having a USB port is a deal killer for me.

[Deleted User] · January 2015

I agree. Not having a USB port is stupid. So many models have had that for years. No need to delay a launch in order to work in something so ubiquitous and necessary.

stever · January 2015

That was my generic USB rant - surely the MKX has (at least) one of those?

(Whew, yeah, it has at least one and a slot. Thought I was going to have to sell my Ford stock for a minute there.

A Sync3 delay I can sort of understand but there's a lot of demand for tech now).

akirby · January 2015

MFT has 2 usb ports and a SD card slot that can also be used for music or pictures if you don't have Nav. Sync 3 is the same.

The point was that MFT was and is still just fine as an infotainment system now that they've stabilized it. I believe it has all the features that the competition has and maybe more. It certainly doesn't put them at a disadvantage against the competition yet. And I do still think we'll see something better from Lincoln within the next year.

If Lincoln is doing everything wrong and Caddy is doing everything right, why are Lincoln sales up and Caddy sales down? And why are they cutting CTS prices?

What good does it do to have great products like ATS and CTS if you can't sell them in sufficient volume or at target prices?

When Lincoln does roll out great new products they'll have an upgraded dealer experience, black label customizations, high end Revel audio and other exclusive features that Caddy won't have.

And since Lincoln has been profitable for several years now, there is no hurry.

stever · January 2015

That reminds me - haven't heard any real gripping about management Ford since Mark Fields replaced Mulally last summer. I think that's a good thing.

berri · January 2015

I think Cadillac has several problems. First and foremost, you aren't going to sell them at German pricing. GM got too aggressive. Most of the Cadillac's kind of look very similar and that look is starting to get long in the tooth. Finally, do Cadillac drivers really want a European suspension, or are they looking more for a classic American luxury ride? I know it's in to think Euro, but I have to think that if you are looking for that, you'll probably just buy European unless there is a huge price discount by going Cadillac. Lexus may be making a similar poor judgment. Lexus sold very well when they were similar to American luxury cruisers. I think some of the new Lincoln products are styling more American these days, and that might just be a smart idea while Cadillac and Lexus seem to pursue faux German.

akirby · January 2015

That is exactly the problem. They're building nice vehicles but they are vehicles that their dealers can't sell for the prices they need to charge. Also one of the reasons for a big inventory backup is that Cadillac was paying their dealers cash for ordering more vehicles (not for actually selling them, just for ordering them). What a recipe for disaster. When the dealers complained Johan basically said that they aren't getting the bigger (meaning longer time frames - 5 years or more) picture of where he wants to take the brand. Unfortunately Johan doesn't get the current picture that dealers can't sell the current products the way they need to and most of the other new products recently announced will just make it worse instead of better.

Timex can't sell $5K watches and Cadillac can't sell BMWs at BMW prices yet. Neither can Lincoln but they understand that and are going after what they can sell and make a profit. It may not be sexy but one allows you to stay in business and the other doesn't.

Cadillac should be spending money helping dealers upgrade their facilities and experience and building vehicles that their buyers want instead of alienating their buyers going for conquest sales that aren't there.

ab348 · January 2015

I thought this was a discussion about what Ford needs to do with Lincoln. Stop worrying about Cadillac, guys.

akirby · January 2015

But all we've heard the last 3 years is how Caddy is doing it right and Lincoln is failing. This shows the complete opposite. What Lincoln needs to do is anything but what Caddy is doing.

ab348 · January 2015

I really don't want to get into this discussion but let's look at some facts. YTD sales thru December courtesy of goodcarbadcar.net:

Cadillac CTS 31,115
Cadillac ATS 29,890
Cadilac XTS 24,335
Cadillax SRX 53,578
Cadillac Escalade 30,552
Total: 170,750

Lincoln MKZ 34,009
Lincoln MKS 8,160
Lincoln MKC 13,077
Lincoln MKX 23,995
Lincoln MKT 4,800
Lincoln Navigator 10,433
Total: 94.474

Both brands are making some good to excellent vehicles now but they have taken different approaches - Lincoln by building off thinly-disguised Ford vehicles, while Cadillac has done that in a couple of cases (XTS and Escalade) while using unique platforms for others. It is a different strategy that may allow them to sell at higher price points. It takes time to build a brand back up. Both may succeed. Results will only be known over the long term. For my needs, I prefer what Cadillac has to offer right now. But the overall market will decide over time. You probably can't go wrong with either.

akirby · January 2015

Cadillac also had the highest incentives for 2014 and they've recently had to cut CTS prices. If you're losing money then higher volume just helps you go bankrupt faster. Lincolns may be "thinly disguised Fords" but they're turning a profit by keeping volumes in check and keeping ATPs high and incentives lower. Cadillac is ignoring the folks who want to buy their vehicles and trying to sell cars to folks who would never set foot in a Cadillac (or Lincoln) dealership and they're failing miserably. Adding more even higher priced vehicles is only going to make it worse. Crossovers will help but that should have been the first move.

It's understandable that people like Caddy's vehicles and therefore try to rationalize their business model as opposed to Lincoln's, but in the end it's about being profitable and Caddy has a bigger road ahead of them than Lincoln does.

ab348 · January 2015

I seriously doubt that Lincoln is turning a profit at 94,000 vehicles a year even though their development costs are probably low. They could probably improve those results if they were to drop 2 or 3 vehicles that do not sell worth a lick like the MKS and MKT.

akirby · January 2015

Ford has said specifically that Lincoln was profitable at least 3 years ago. The reason is simple - they're spending very little on vehicle development using shared Ford platforms and they're keeping ATPs relatively high maximizing profits on less volume. They could increase sales by adding incentives and/or reducing prices but that wouldn't help profits.

Lincoln is also putting a lot of effort into upgrading dealerships and dealer experiences which Caddy also needs desperately. And Black Label customized designs. Luxury buyers want this stuff more than they want RWD.

Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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