Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

graphicguy · May 2015

billyperks4 said:
Here we talk about ELLPS and not old Camrys or individual net worth.

Touche.....

andres3 · May 2015

I once saw the rainbow unicorn of cars. A recent model Toyota Corolla "S" model being driven like it was an autocross modified Miata on a time trial run, but on a public back road that has plenty of curves. This guy kept up a very healthy fast pace in front of me for a good 7 miles or so,

A modified Toyota would be rare, but not newsworthy. The reason I mention this Toyota Corolla is that it was a Toyota being driven at a "fun" back road pace (FAST), which is definitely as rare of a sighting as I can think of.

Perhaps a Camry could be modified to fit into the ELLPS category to fit on topic?

billyperks4 · May 2015

Perhaps a Camry could be modified to fit into the ELLPS category to fit on topic?
Be our guest and take the lead on this.

stickguy · May 2015

It already was. They call it the ES350 and sell it at Lexus.

Michaell · May 2015

stickguy said:
It already was. They call it the ES350 and sell it at Lexus.

Bzzzz ... sorry, the ES doesn't qualify as there is no "P" in it. "ELLS", sure.

dino001 · May 2015

Plus, I heard it's not a Camry anymore, it's Avalon.

Michaell · May 2015

dino001 said:
Plus, I heard it's not a Camry anymore, it's Avalon.

OK, a Camry that's been through the Medieval Rack treatment ...

andres3 · May 2015

I think Toyota has plans to install the V8 from the IS-F model into the Camry or ES and will call it the Camry Hellcat.

markcincinnati · May 2015

andres3 said:
I think Toyota has plans to install the V8 from the IS-F model into the Camry or ES and will call it the Camry Hellcat.

Go on, pull the other one.

cdnpinhead · May 2015

Nothing Japan (let alone Korea) ever produces will be worthy.

So it is written.

qbrozen · May 2015

Oh, come on now. Back when it was new, the G35 was a competitor. They could do it again. Not sure it will qualify for this category, but that upcoming Infiniti sedan with the GTR running gear could be interesting.

ctl · May 2015

Sorry to sidetrack the conversations. To me camry is just a reliable transportation that could have been any of the sort. Not about individual net worth either, as there are people much wealthier and driving lesser cars. Just that I think they are probably not interested in cars to begin with.

flightnurse · May 2015

ctl said:
Sorry to sidetrack the conversations. To me camry is just a reliable transportation that could have been any of the sort. Not about individual net worth either, as there are people much wealthier and driving lesser cars. Just that I think they are probably not interested in cars to begin with.

To some people a car is an appliance, plain and simple. Get's them from point A to point B, they know that they will have to replace said appliance every 7-10 yrs with another appliance these people are happy with what they drive. However, some people in their forum can't wrap their head around this concept, just like on bimmerfest, some guy was very insulting to people who have a 528i and 535i, because in his small mind the only 5 series worth having is the 550i.

flightnurse · May 2015

So here is a video of the new XE with audio of the engine...

https://youtu.be/Gw-LleIXJxQ

laurasdada · May 2015

If only the XE was available New Year's Eve 2013!

flightnurse · May 2015

WOW... did everybody fall off the face of the earth?

billyperks4 · May 2015

Enjoying my F10- getting familiar with the many functions of the I-Drive.

andres3 · May 2015

Here is my recommendation to everyone here.

Take the 15 South from Escondido towards San Diego.
Exit 15 on the West Bernardo Drive/East Pomerado Rd Exit. Take Pomerado East across the freeway.

Both W. Bernardo Drive and Pomerado go in a North/South direction, so you must turn left onto Highland Valley Road to go East/SE.

Prepare for one of the most scenic fun drives imaginable with very little traffic, even on a Friday afternoon.

My new favorite road, and it's probably just as fast at getting me home in an unimpeded S4 driven with advanced techniques as a traffic clogged 15 South.

flightnurse · May 2015

Highland Valley Rd is a great road, also going out to Bates Nut Farm is a good one too. But the real run is going up Mt. Palomar on the south side (we called it the tight side)

andres3 · May 2015

Any highway you can find that is designated as a State Route (ie. SR-# or S-#) is fairly easy for thrill seekers to find. Roads..... now that's much harder to find. Mt. Palomar falls into the S-route category, but it is a great one. The tight side is more like the "west" side though. Either way, you'll encounter many sport bikes enjoying that road, and unfortunately if you are driving spiritedly, you'll inevitably come up behind a Toyota or other absurdly slow vehicle climbing the very twisty switchback grades.

flightnurse · May 2015

andres3 said:
Any highway you can find that is designated as a State Route (ie. SR-# or S-#) is fairly easy for thrill seekers to find. Roads..... now that's much harder to find. Mt. Palomar falls into the S-route category, but it is a great one. The tight side is more like the "west" side though. Either way, you'll encounter many sport bikes enjoying that road, and unfortunately if you are driving spiritedly, you'll inevitably come up behind a Toyota or other absurdly slow vehicle climbing the very twisty switchback grades.

Being one of those sportbikers, spent many a sunday going up and down Palomar, there are two side, S7 (East side) which is the longer of the two roads and S6 which is the tight side (also called the south side) S6 dumps onto Hiway 76.

When the San Diego BMW car club would go up Palomar we did on Sat, when there are no sportbikes.

markcincinnati · May 2015

Experience with this?

I'm closing in on new tires for my 2014 S4 (18" wheels). I live where we have moderate winters -- typically very few snow days, and when we do, they last a day. I have no interest in taking my car to any track event. I am also, typically, not interested in swapping from summer only to winter tires and back.

We all think we're great drivers, no doubt. I drive on the Interstate Highway system here in SW OH, which is to say it is full of pot-holes and every spring the new pot hole crop becomes evident. It is like driving a freakin' obstacle course. Having said that, I do drive once weekly between Cincinnati and Columbus (200 miles round trip). Much of the trip the ambient speed is 80+, some of the trip is 90+.

I have H rated "Grand Touring" tires on the car -- OEM's. They have been OK.

My thought is to replace these tires with the Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06's. My wife's 2014 SQ5 has the "last gen" DWS's -- and they have been very good.

I'm thinking there is some evidence that the DWS 06's are an improved in every way version of the DWS's. There is little info I can find about the tires, although TireRack does seem generally to approve of them.

These tires are UHP's and will be W rated. Their lifespan should be quite good, if the DWS (prev model) is any indication.

Are the tires quiet? Do they improve turn in? Are they rounder than most? Etc?

If you have any personal experience with these on your ELLPS or LPS cars, I would be interested in your comments.

Thanks.

andres3 · May 2015

I really REALLY liked the Extreme Contact DW's, which were fine until I tracked them. Then they chunked even with the lightweight A3. Absent track days, they should be killer. Do you really need the S in DWS if only for a few days? I think you should just drive extra EXTRA carefully on those rare snow days, and enjoy the other 360 days a year a notch better!!!

Also, the Michelin Pilot Super Sports can't be overlooked if you agree with my logic above.

roadburner · May 2015

I have had extremely good luck with the Cooper Zeon RS3-A as the year-round tire on the X3 and as the "winter" tire on my MS3. That said, I haven't heard anything negative about the Contis. I'd also give the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 a good hard look.

nyccarguy · May 2015

markcincinnati said:

Experience with this? I'm closing in on new tires for my 2014 S4 (18" wheels). I live where we have moderate winters -- typically very few snow days, and when we do, they last a day. I have no interest in taking my car to any track event. I am also, typically, not interested in swapping from summer only to winter tires and back. We all think we're great drivers, no doubt. I drive on the Interstate Highway system here in SW OH, which is to say it is full of pot-holes and every spring the new pot hole crop becomes evident. It is like driving a freakin' obstacle course. Having said that, I do drive once weekly between Cincinnati and Columbus (200 miles round trip). Much of the trip the ambient speed is 80+, some of the trip is 90+. I have H rated "Grand Touring" tires on the car -- OEM's. They have been OK. My thought is to replace these tires with the Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06's. My wife's 2014 SQ5 has the "last gen" DWS's -- and they have been very good. I'm thinking there is some evidence that the DWS 06's are an improved in every way version of the DWS's. There is little info I can find about the tires, although TireRack does seem generally to approve of them. These tires are UHP's and will be W rated. Their lifespan should be quite good, if the DWS (prev model) is any indication. Are the tires quiet? Do they improve turn in? Are they rounder than most? Etc? If you have any personal experience with these on your ELLPS or LPS cars, I would be interested in your comments. Thanks.

Isn't your car leased? How many miles do you have on it? How many months/miles do you have left?

markcincinnati · May 2015

andres3 said:
I really REALLY liked the Extreme Contact DW's, which were fine until I tracked them. Then they chunked even with the lightweight A3. Absent track days, they should be killer. Do you really need the S in DWS if only for a few days? I think you should just drive extra EXTRA carefully on those rare snow days, and enjoy the other 360 days a year a notch better!!!

Also, the Michelin Pilot Super Sports can't be overlooked if you agree with my logic above.

The issue is not so much the snow (coefficient of friction) but the things that happen to a "summer performance" tire when temps drop below 45F. So, while I could probably use and enjoy a summer tire in the summer (I had them on my 2009 A4), well, in the winter, the ride and handling characteristics of the car reminded me of "driving on the rims." The car exhibited what I call "same day" turning, and the ride and the sounds from the road were, for lack of a better term, "brittle."

We have moderate winters here in SW Ohio, moderate in terms of precipitation. But once it gets cold, it stays below 40 -- and, well, summer tires just become hard as a rock.

markcincinnati · May 2015

"Isn't your car leased? How many miles do you have on it? How many months/miles do you have left?"

Yes, my car is leased. I have 27,000 miles on it. I don't know what being leased or not has to do with replacing tires -- when the OEM's go, well, you replace them (unless you are within a very short period of end of lease).

My 2009 had Dunlop MAX Performance 19" 35 series tires on it. They had become substantially "not fun" any more at 11,000 miles -- and were said (to me) -- to be pretty much useless by 15,000. I had a blowout (when the outside temp was single digit above 0F) and the tread was so far gone I went ahead and bought 4 instead of the two I would have purchased had they not been those summer only MAX Performance tires. I had a 36 month lease on that one and, well, I was into the lease perhaps 9 months at that point.

When you gotta go, you gotta go.

I am considering keeping this S4 out of lease -- considering. In any case, for the next couple of years, I want the best -- most fun -- rubber I can have on the thing, all things considered.

UHP all-seasons seem to be a reasonable compromise -- I'm just hoping someone here has DWS 06's and cares to comment.

Thanks!

coldinohio · May 2015

rare poster; frequent lurker...
wife had conti DWS of 4WD SUV in NE Ohio no issues in all climates and lasted 4.5 years; did fine on trips to Florida or snow/ice in NE Ohio; seemed pretty quiet when new
I had michelin A/S pilot sport on acura and at ~30k miles, had issue with 'cupping' - apparently known issue and 'resolved' with new compound; they get pretty noisy after 20k miles, IMHO
on my new A4, doing summer /winter and agree with temps below ~40, summer times are a bit challenged; but summer tires great most of time
keep us posted

billyperks4 · May 2015

Normally on a lease, you give back the car with the OEM tires- unless you driving habits are over the top.:)

billyperks4 · May 2015

Flight- I have a 320 XI Sport for a loaner- 535 in for the foot-rest creaks.
I have to say its a spunky little car, its smooth and the acceleration and handling is not bad.
My wife dropped me this morning at the train station and mentioned that the car is smooth and lively.
However, I will steer her towards a 435 or a 335.

Nice ride though- 320 XI Sport.

flightnurse · May 2015

billyperks4 said:
Flight- I have a 320 XI Sport for a loaner- 535 in for the foot-rest creaks.
I have to say its a spunky little car, its smooth and the acceleration and handling is not bad.
My wife dropped me this morning at the train station and mentioned that the car is smooth and lively.
However, I will steer her towards a 435 or a 335.

Nice ride though- 320 XI Sport.

Thanks

This past weekend I had a 535d, our SA is trying his best to get two cars sales out of us as, so I was able to take the 535d for the weekend. I was sold before this weekend, but not sold enough to sign on the dotted line. I can see that being my next car, unless BMWNA imports the 435d. The 4 cyl diesel has the torque but the kick the 6 cyl diesel gives and the MPG is really a no brainier.

markcincinnati · May 2015

billyperks4 said:
Normally on a lease, you give back the car with the OEM tires- unless you driving habits are over the top.:)

"Normally?" I'd say that the OEM tires may be good for anywhere between 12,000 and 36,000 miles. In the ELLPS class, often the tires are of the low profile, super sticky and stiff sidewall type which "normally" translates to relatively short tread wear. If you lease a German car, these days, it often comes with MAX performance summer only tires and those types have even less tread life since they offer very soft tread in the pursuit of high cornering forces.

SW Ohio leases are typically 36 to 39 months and 15K per year. No way you could keep the OEM tires on the car, at least if you wanted to enjoy the last 6 to 12 months of "ownership."

I have leased, now, almost three dozen cars in my life -- I have ONCE kept the OEM tires on for the entire lease -- I leased a 1996 Audi A6 (for one year) while I awaited my 1997 A8 to arrive.

Now, my friend on the other hand, turned in his leased car with the original oil still in it. He just added a quart or two every once in a while and changed the filter a couple of times. It was an Acura that he ended up trading in on a BMW. He did, however, replace the tires twice (he commuted between Detroit and Cincinnati).

Just to make sure I wasn't smokin' sumthin', I called my dealer and asked how many customers replace the tires on their leased cars -- his answer was "all of them." He then said, almost all of those with leases over 12 months.

dino001 · May 2015

I agree. I have 45k in my 328i sport pack and the second rears are coming to a replacement in couple of months, mabe four. 5 thousand miles tops. Fronts are wearing a bit longer, but I replaced them togeteher last time at 25k, this time it looks they will probably last a bit longer.

roadburner · May 2015

Promising: 435i ZHP With the inclusion of the LSD, and the promised improvement of the EPS I could possibly see owning one.

In other news, I drove a 228i and was totally underwhelmed- and the June Road & Track confirmed my impressions. It contains a comparison test of an FR-S, an EcoBoost Mustang(with the Performance Pkg) and a 228i(with the Track Handling Package). A few relevant quotes:

With absolutely no feedback coming through its steering wheel, the 228i is a bear to manage at its limits with stability control off, first understeering considerably, then flinging itself sideways at inopportune moments.

...more Buick than Bimmer. Every time we stop, the 228i's driver begs to get into something else.

The Mustang meanwhile, feels more like a BMW than the BMW.

The Scion prevailed, if you couldn't guess- the consensus being that it had the sweetest handling and consistently punched above its weight.It's definitely not an ELLPS car however; Jason Cammisa puts it bluntly:
It isn't for insecure show-offs.

flightnurse · May 2015

roadburner said:
Promising: 435i ZHP With the inclusion of the LSD, and the promised improvement of the EPS I could possibly see owning one.

Many people like myself who owned the original ZPH 330i find this new one an insult. It's a parts bin special, The original ZPH was not, Nothing different about the transmissions, nothing special about the interior, nothing different about the engine, so the new ZPH has the MPPK, MPE anyone can buy them and if done right at a lower price then this package. I can't wait to see how much the price is going to be for this "ZPH" car...

andres3 · May 2015

graphicguy said:

andres3 said:
I think the Neon experience was so bad that I have no patience left in this lifetime for an unreliable car. Another unreliable car would quickly vanish from my possession. I am risk averse to unreliable possibilities.

Honda and Audi were not perfect experiences for me, but the fact they stood behind their product and either paid for repairs or reimbursed me for repairs (even if technically after warranty period) went a long way towards gaining my trust.
I think that's why I'm anti-Audi right now. If they wouldn't have acted like posteriors, stepped up and taken care of the problems that they admitted to having, instead of jerking me around, they'd be on my shopping list.

So far, Cadillac has treated me as well/better as any other brand I've ever owned, that includes BMW, Audi, and Acura.

The CTS feels so solid, I can't quite see any parts flying off.

I don't mean to rub any salt in the wounds, but I think it's fair to ask that you share your updated "review and aversions" for Cadillac with the people that frequent this forum topic, as they might not be familiar with the other you've posted in.

Parts haven't flown off, but there's been other serious issues. My, what a difference a month makes! Nevermind the "report back when and IF You get to 65K miles thing I said!"

Meanwhile, almost at 24K miles in the S4 and it hasn't needed any parts to be replaced by Audi yet. I have a long commute lately. The car is wicked fast and quick now that it's fully broken in. I did notice a hard grinding-like shift vibration/noise/misshifts by the DSG into reverse a couple of different mornings moving from a standstill. I'll keep an eye and ear on that.

roadburner · May 2015

FYI, GG also had a very unpleasant experience with the Audi dealer network.

andres3 · May 2015

roadburner said:
FYI, GG also had a very unpleasant experience with the Audi dealer network.

Yes, but he's been BURNED BEFORE by Cadillac, this is simply history repeating itself.

BIG DIFFERENCE; Audi's never burned him before; only once.

Some here wrongfully argue things have changed; I think I've correctly argued all along they really have not.

Chrysler said the same things in 1994 about the Neon and "old" Chrysler that GM says about the "old" GM today. It's the same regurgitated marketing and it gets old. They need to put their money where their mouth is.

billyperks4 · May 2015

" Audi's never burned him before; only once. "

Does this statement make any sense?

andres3 · May 2015

billyperks4 said:
" Audi's never burned him before; only once. "

Does this statement make any sense?

When I reread and proofread that I noticed it as well, but let it slide as it was late at night.

Should say, Audi has only burned him once, and hadn't burned him prior to his recent experience.

flightnurse · May 2015

andres3 said:

Yes, but he's been BURNED BEFORE by Cadillac, this is simply history repeating itself.

BIG DIFFERENCE; Audi's never burned him before; only once.

Some here wrongfully argue things have changed; I think I've correctly argued all along they really have not.

Chrysler said the same things in 1994 about the Neon and "old" Chrysler that GM says about the "old" GM today. It's the same regurgitated marketing and it gets old. They need to put their money where their mouth is.

Regarding Caddy, it wasn't GG who had the problem but his mother. Also that was like 20 yrs ago, it's not the same Caddy company either, just look at their product line.

In regards to Audi, it happened 2 yrs ago, very recent.

It's not the same regurgitated marketing, if a company turns around and makes products that people want to buy and treat customer like humans, then they will successful. GM cars are the same cars 5 yrs ago, look at the Impala, the new Malibu, Cruze, ATS, CTS, Vette, Regal, LaCrossee etc...

billyperks4 · May 2015

I like the new "SS"- looks real nice going down the highway- but then again, nothing looks better than a F10.

andres3 · May 2015

flightnurse said:

andres3 said:

Yes, but he's been BURNED BEFORE by Cadillac, this is simply history repeating itself.

BIG DIFFERENCE; Audi's never burned him before; only once.

Some here wrongfully argue things have changed; I think I've correctly argued all along they really have not.

Chrysler said the same things in 1994 about the Neon and "old" Chrysler that GM says about the "old" GM today. It's the same regurgitated marketing and it gets old. They need to put their money where their mouth is.

Regarding Caddy, it wasn't GG who had the problem but his mother. Also that was like 20 yrs ago, it's not the same Caddy company either, just look at their product line.

In regards to Audi, it happened 2 yrs ago, very recent.

It's not the same regurgitated marketing, if a company turns around and makes products that people want to buy and treat customer like humans, then they will successful. GM cars are the same cars 5 yrs ago, look at the Impala, the new Malibu, Cruze, ATS, CTS, Vette, Regal, LaCrossee etc...

I'll give you that the cars have improved, they just about had to as they had nowhere to go but up.

The products functionality was but one reason these companies were headed into the cesspool of failure though. The other problems still linger regarding durability, reliability, as well as for customer service, goodwill/good faith dealings, honesty, fairness, and that's a management and worker-bee issue.

It is my understanding GG was the Point of Contact for trying to get his Mother's Cadillac fixed/working? It might not have been his car, but it became his problem to deal with? Correct me if I"m wrong.

If I had a family member come up to me and ask to have me help them "deal with" Chrysler, I'd tell them their best course of action was to leave/abandon the car in Mexico with the doors unlocked and the keys inside.

flightnurse · May 2015

andres3 said:

I'll give you that the cars have improved, they just about had to as they had nowhere to go but up.

The products functionality was but one reason these companies were headed into the cesspool of failure though. The other problems still linger regarding durability, reliability, as well as for customer service, goodwill/good faith dealings, honesty, fairness, and that's a management and worker-bee issue.

It is my understanding GG was the Point of Contact for trying to get his Mother's Cadillac fixed/working? It might not have been his car, but it became his problem to deal with? Correct me if I"m wrong.

If I had a family member come up to me and ask to have me help them "deal with" Chrysler, I'd tell them their best course of action was to leave/abandon the car in Mexico with the doors unlocked and the keys inside.

Andres you keep beating a dead horse i.e GM and the Old Days, just like what you are doing with Chrysler.

The reason why GM was failing was the bean counter ran the company, it was cheaper to build one platform and have all brands use it, Caddy was dying because the generation who bought them where dying and people who had the money didn't want a front wheel drive Caddy that didn't drive well. That is why GM imported a Opal that could zig. Buick was dying for the same reason Caddy was, in the past 5 yrs both brands are enjoying a come back and I hope they continue, it only makes the competition better.

Chrysler (really Dodge) is doing the same thing, when MB bought them people were waiting for good things to come from that marriage, and it finally did the 300, but that was too late for MB, MB wanted Jeep and didn't care about everything else. Out of the that marriage MoPar got the independent suspension from the E class and their 5 spd transmission which made the 300 the success it was/is. Sure the Crossfire was an american version of the SLK.

I'm not too sure why you have to harp on GG, he has every right not to like Audi right now, allow him to do that. You love your S4, great, keep doing so. I'm glad we have a couple of Caddy owners here, I like to hear how they are holding up..

andres3 · May 2015

flightnurse said:

andres3 said:

Andres you keep beating a dead horse i.e GM and the Old Days, just like what you are doing with Chrysler.

The reason why GM was failing was the bean counter ran the company, it was cheaper to build one platform and have all brands use it, Caddy was dying because the generation who bought them where dying and people who had the money didn't want a front wheel drive Caddy that didn't drive well. That is why GM imported a Opal that could zig. Buick was dying for the same reason Caddy was, in the past 5 yrs both brands are enjoying a come back and I hope they continue, it only makes the competition better.

Chrysler (really Dodge) is doing the same thing, when MB bought them people were waiting for good things to come from that marriage, and it finally did the 300, but that was too late for MB, MB wanted Jeep and didn't care about everything else. Out of the that marriage MoPar got the independent suspension from the E class and their 5 spd transmission which made the 300 the success it was/is. Sure the Crossfire was an american version of the SLK.

I'm not too sure why you have to harp on GG, he has every right not to like Audi right now, allow him to do that. You love your S4, great, keep doing so. I'm glad we have a couple of Caddy owners here, I like to hear how they are holding up..
I agree that more competition is better for the market overall. However, I feel like sustaining failed business models like GM and Chrysler stifles competition from other would be startups and potential new car companies that would have provided different (and probably better) competition. Sure they've changed, but I don't' think enough.

I'm not harping on GG. I don't blame him for not liking Audi. Bad Customer service should result in lost customers. I like hearing from Caddy owners as well; the more information I have the better I say.

I just empathize with him because he's going through something I've sworn to avoid in my lifetime. One of the reasons I won't give Chrysler a 2nd chance is because I don't want to be in the weak position of having to fight them from being burned twice. I wouldn't have any patience for failures; however minor; so it's best I avoid them since I'd be a picky nitpicky customer for sure. They'd have to bend over backwards to keep me pleased.
My lifetime patience for an unreliable vehicles is all used up; no more in that tank.

markcincinnati · May 2015

The way I earn my living is by working with distributors of beverage alcohol products. For purposes of our discussions here, think of these distributors as your friendly local auto dealers.

I have come to learn that the distributors and suppliers have a love hate relationship. I must assume there is some similarity with auto mfgs and their retailers. Since I have been dealing with German car dealerships for the most part since 1977, my observation does not support this assumption. My Audi dealer seems to have a very positive relationship with Audi of America. My beverage alcohol customers seem to have no love lost relationship with their suppliers, however.

So, I do believe that my only matter of recourse, should I have an issue with my German car, is by dealing with my Audi dealer (at least first off). I have no issues with my dealership and we also had no issues with our three BMW's and the local BMW dealership. When something needed attending, the Audi and BMW dealership have always greased the skids, so to speak, to get the issue taken care of.

My few dalliances with American cars have, on the other hand, almost always had issues that the dealer wanted to get argumentative with. The same was true with Acura, but not with Infiniti. If someone says they have had issues with a GM or Chrysler car that required "much" effort to achieve resolution, well that seems, to me, to be justification for not patronizing American car dealerships. I've had the same experiences way back when I was in college and was trying to become a life-long Chrysler products customer.

My somewhat recent experience visiting a Chrysler/Jeep dealership in search of a new car, really did but one thing: I would, at this juncture, NEVER buy a Chrysler/Jeep product, as the experience made me feel the need for a shower -- and that was just going in for a test drive.

My preference is to work with what I have come to call "horizontal" car dealerships. The salespeople at such dealerships seem hell bent on discussing everything BUT the cars they presumably sell. Talk about zero pressure, zero stress, the German car reps seem, on a scale of 1 to 10 to place selling a car as number 11 on their list of things they want to do. One being the #1 thing they want to do.

Of course, the cynic in me assumes this could be part of a well studied act to make me believe they [the German dealership] really do care about what I want, rather than making a sale TODAY. In any case, I do respond to the negative pressure to buy. And, truth be told, I am not really all that concerned if this is all just contrived to manipulate me.

The guy I buy cars from is on my "list": you know the one that has a doctor, dentist, barber, accountant, lawyer, vet and a few other key individuals on it that we all rely on to keep us safe, sane, legal and well.

In my case, I happen to love German cars, Swiss watches, Italian shoes, and mostly Japanese electronics, and so on -- I have come to build relationships with folks who sell and support these products and services.

Nothing is perfect -- and I assume every product has lemons -- and because of this, I believe in relationships. If you buy into the notion that the stuff we buy we buy because of the service and support afforded us as consumers by the retailers, you should be shopping for the purveyor with as much care as you shop for the product itself.

My experiences -- after 33 Audis all from the same dealership -- have convinced me nothing else even comes close.

If you have an experience that you will -- on purpose -- repeat, I would urge you to at least consider doing so.

Most of the cars we discuss in this forum are more alike than not, if you find a great BMW or Cadillac dealership, I would urge you enjoy the benefits that you can glean via loyalty.

Finally, I'll leave you with this: one in a row is not a trend.

circlew · May 2015

Anyone have a relative that had the "floating lifter" disaster with Jeep Grand Cherokee V-8's a few generations back? My Bro' did and after he dumped it for a Kia Sorrento and vowed newer to return to Chrysler.

It appears some genius engineer decided not to bolt down the lifters!!! Holy crap!

He also had many other issues with his '04 that proved the word 'Junk' had true staying power with Chrysler over the years....

flightnurse · May 2015

Here is a new Alfa sport sedan

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2017-alfa-romeo-giorgio-sedan-25-cars-worth-waiting-for-feature

qbrozen · May 2015

i hope they change the Chevy taillights and undercut the 3-series price, otherwise it doesn't stand a chance.

Michaell · May 2015

And, how many Alfa dealers will there be? Co-located with the Fiat dealers or separate?

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