Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

graphicguy · July 2015

benjaminh said:
Jon Ikeda promoted to General Manger of Acura:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150727/OEM02/150729892/hondas-accavitti-leaves-top-post-at-acura

Ikeda, among other things, led the styling team for the successful 2004 Acura TL. He has been with Honda since 1989.

WOW...interesting article. Ikeda is the right guy for the job. But, it's rare to see someone resign (get fired?) after several successful product launches and accelerating volumes like Accavitti did.

benjaminh · July 2015

graphicguy said:

benjaminh said:
Jon Ikeda promoted to General Manger of Acura:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150727/OEM02/150729892/hondas-accavitti-leaves-top-post-at-acura

Ikeda, among other things, led the styling team for the successful 2004 Acura TL. He has been with Honda since 1989.
WOW...interesting article. Ikeda is the right guy for the job. But, it's rare to see someone resign (get fired?) after several successful product launches and accelerating volumes like Accavitti did.

Yeah, it's not yet clear what happened here, but it seems like it was rather abrupt. It could be that Accavitti just left for some other reason, personal or professional.

But Acura is doing reasonably well these days. It looks like sales for calendar year 2015 will be up 12% or so, maybe even getting close to 200,000 for the year. Acura's record year for sales was in 2005, when they sold 209k vehicles.

Acura now seems to have passed Cadillac in sales, which is partly because Cadillac has its own issues, and is moving up market, but still—who would have ever thought that would happen?

In any case, Jon Ikeda seems like the right person to lead Acura forward.

qbrozen · July 2015

markcincinnati said:

I'm going to stick with convenience as the killer of the manual.

But, I would be keenly interested in knowing the percentages if such source for that data is available.

I became a convert when the auto versions surpassed their manual counterparts in speed. I prefer pretty much anything that improves performance. I'm not completely converted, however, as I believe the majority of automatics are still inferior to their manual counterparts. There is no way in hell I would have bought a Fit with the CVT trans, for example. It also took alot of convincing to make the switch. I test drove the 135i with ZF 6-speed 3 times before coming to the conclusion that I could live with it. I grew to love it. (not the car, but the trans)

roadburner · July 2015

cdnpinhead said:
The alphabet-soup transmissions are probably wonderful, so long as they work and/or are under warranty.

When they break (and they do), then it's time to find out if the technicians at the dealership even know how to spell transmission. Most of them are told to remove and replace the whole assembly. If it's under warranty, then it's "only" a couple of visits to the d'ship and some amount of time in a loaner. If it's not. . .

Mark is a well-known proponent of never driving anything out of warranty. I've driven most of my vehicles way, way beyond the warranty coverage. We differ.

I like manuals. For simplicity and maintainability reasons, I seek out vehicles with them. My drive to and from work every day, and the trip up to the cabin and back, make use of (at most) 20% of the capability of the vehicle I drive. I just need the vehicle to need minimal attention. Back when I drove among Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary & Regina through the Canadian Rockies in the middle of the night, having a vehicle that demonstrated excellent handling was important. Now it is not; the latest and greatest technology is for those who love bells and whistles. Actual driving rarely enters the discussion The Fraser Canyon at 2 am was a wonderful thing.

Many pretend, as they go around on-ramps. I'm not interested, but recognize that many are. YMMV .

Like you, I tend to own the cars that I drive exclusively for a very long time(Club Sport: 20 years Wrangler: 13 years, MS3: 8 years)- I'm apparently immune to the Shiny Object Syndrome. That said, at the request of my lovely bride I'm going to relent and check out a CPO 2013 E92 335is at my local dealer; it does have an almost perfect option list for my purposes- nothing but the CWP(I wish it was a sunroof delete car but those are rare as hen's teeth). And three pedals, of course. Checking out the ETK, if I were to trash the six speed-an incredibly unlikely occurrence- a BMW remanufactured replacement costs around $3600. The optional DCT? Almost $8,000- and while the DCT appears to be relatively reliable, failures have occurred.

In any event, it's probably academic, as I really liked the STI I sampled and I have yet to try a new Mustang GT with the PP.

circlew · July 2015

I read somewhere the Mustang GT was equal to the M3 in just about every way as far as performance goes.

Here's for 2011.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/viewall.html

Fast Forward to 2015:

http://wot.motortrend.com/1407_totd_you_pick_2015_ford_mustang_gt_or_2015_bmw_m4.html

Here's a Boss 302 in '11 vs the M3 and Merc AMG. Boss 302 had the 3 pedals, not the other 2.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585705

benjaminh · July 2015

Edmunds gives Acura its "Best Retained Value Award" out of all luxury brands:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/best-retained-value-cars.html

"Edmunds.com's Best Retained Value® Awards are part of our continuing efforts to highlight vehicle value for consumers. The awards recognize the brands and models that have the highest projected private party residual value five years after their launch, expressed as a percentage of their average True Market Value® (TMV®). We assume 15,000 miles driven per year.

For 2015, Toyota won in the non-luxury division with a projected 52.4 percent residual value after five years, and Acura won the luxury crown with a projected five-year residual value of 46.9 percent. In addition to these brand-level awards, Edmunds.com issued model-level awards in 24 separate segments.

A reliable assessment of a vehicle's resale value can be a critical piece of information for car buyers. Smart car shoppers will choose vehicles with high retained value so they can maximize their worth at trade-in or sale. And for consumers who lease, selecting cars with strong resale value is just as important: Resale value is a key factor in determining the monthly lease payment. Click here to read more about the methodology for selecting the 2015 Best Retained Value® Award winners."

markcincinnati · July 2015

Despite Cadillac being displaced in sales by Acura, I am rooting for Cadillac and I do think they have the guy to turn the thing around assuming that he gets some of the credit for his 19 year tenure at Audi. Not sure why he left Infiniti, my guess is he wanted to live in New York City, not Hong Kong, but, I assume only he knows the full story.

I keep wondering if the abrupt and rather large MSRP hike Cadillac imposed upon CTS buyers isn't at least part of the problem. I seem to recall they bumped the CTS MSRP to 5-series and A6 levels. One of the merits of the CTS, at least I thought, was that you got a 5 series contender at 3 series prices.

In any case, I am pulling for Cadillac to start putting up some really impressive numbers in the not too distant future.

markcincinnati · July 2015

If anyone was unhappy with their A4/S4 Q5/SQ5 A5/S5's Audi connect feature due to the limitations of the T-Mobile network (here in River City at least), my dealer loaned me an AT&T SIMM chip and coded my MMI to point to AT&T rather than T-Mobile and voila! I am full-time in 3G and typically with at least 3 bars.

Since Audi connect is used to create a WiFi hot spot and to "surf the web," I have found 3G to work good to very good almost all of the time. My friend's 2016 A6 has 4G LTE and it is even better, but Google Search is only a second or three slower on mine, now, than on his -- "Google Search Morton's of Chicago" works about the same on his as on mine.

When driving to Columbus from Cincinnati my colleague can be on his e-mail account and send and receive PowerPoint docs as attachments with decent speed. Not possible with T-Mobile.

If you need to know how to do this, I'm certain I can poke around the MMI and find the secret sauce, but, you'll still need an new SIMM chip, and I can't help you there.

Another benefit is I can use my iPhone on WiFi while I'm in the car, cutting my data plan overruns to practically nil.

DILYL

dino001 · July 2015

markcincinnati said:
One of the merits of the CTS, at least I thought, was that you got a 5 series contender at 3 series prices.

But they declared themselves "fixed" after the bailout, so now they decided they could charge more for "equal" car. Essentially, "get 5 contender for the price of 3" is not working is a luxury/upscale world. That's downmarket commodity "more for less" world. The luxury world is "more for even more", Cadillac thought they could enter that as "equal". They problems is it doesn't work that way. They should have crept the price over time, rather than slamming such a big hike at once. Unless they were prepared for the volumes to crash and thought ATS would take care of that (it did not over longer time).

breld · July 2015

markcincinnati said:

Another benefit is I can use my iPhone on WiFi while I'm in the car, cutting my data plan overruns to practically nil.

DILYL

Hey Mark - with regard to your statement above, don't you still need to have a data plan with regard to the Wi-Fi hotspot in the car?

I'm curious how that works - the S3 my wife just got has that feature, and as it so happens, it does have an AT&T card. Since we have our data/phone with AT&T, I had assumed (after the trial) that we'd be adding that to our data plan, just as you would an iPad or other device. Is that not how it works?

breld · July 2015

I think I answered my own question with a little research on audiusa.com. So the wi-fi is just one of the features bundled with "Audi Connect," available as a subscription cost.

benjaminh · July 2015

premium sales for June of 2015

BMW 32,176

MB 28,044

Lexus 26,121

Audi 18,262

Acura 15,527

Cadillac 13,515

(Somehow I got the figure wrong for Acura earlier. Sorry about that.)

roadburner · July 2015

circlew said:
I read somewhere the Mustang GT was equal to the M3 in just about every way as far as performance goes.

Here's for 2011.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/viewall.html

Fast Forward to 2015:

http://wot.motortrend.com/1407_totd_you_pick_2015_ford_mustang_gt_or_2015_bmw_m4.html

Here's a Boss 302 in '11 vs the M3 and Merc AMG. Boss 302 had the 3 pedals, not the other 2.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585705

Well, as I understand it the Boss 302 would give the E3x M3 all it could handle(no pun intended) and the 2015 GT PP is just as fast-or faster-than the Boss. I'd give the current M3/4 a slight edge for now- but all bets are off when the GT350 and GT350R arrive.

markcincinnati · July 2015

With Audi Connect you pay a certain price, based on the number of pre-paid months you opt for, and you get unlimited data. You can use a PC in wifi mode and up and down load attachment laden emails without limit as to the plan.

I still think it is expensive -- if you don't pre-pay -- but Audi Connect is a very good feature and google search is a great feature to have.

The inability to upgrade a 2014 S4 to 4G is disappointing -- but, in this case is NOT a reason to replace the car.

I am the frustrated consumer -- case in point, I bought a 4K UHD TV, I await source material, hoping for a year end roll out of 4K content.

I am my own worst enemy,

Mark

benjaminh · July 2015

Over at Acurazine, some drivers are reporting 38-40 mpg on the hwy with the V-6 TLX, which is quite a bit above the EPA rating. Surprising, but I guess it makes sense, because at 70 mph typically half of the V-6 engine is shut off with VCM. The result is that you're running a 3 cylinder car with the 9 speed transmission at c. 1500 rpm.

Some drivers seem to really like the ZF transmission for this reason, but others really don't. Some people seem to have jerky and "hunt for the gear" shifting issues at low speeds.

So for the Acura TLX it seems like a win some/lose some world going from their 6 speed to the 9 speed tranny.

roadburner · July 2015

Track Battle: Honda Civic Type R vs BMW M3 and Audi RS3

markcincinnati · July 2015

I would have to assume the BMW M3 would be the champ in that comparo. But, since there is no RS4 other than the avant, I see the logic of selecting an RS3.

I thought the S4 was the analog to the BMW 335 or 340 or whatever BMW is offered with a blown 6-cylinder as high performance. The M3 would typically go up against the RS version of the cars from Audi, except in this case where Audi only offers up its highest performer in SW format.

circlew · July 2015

Well, as I understand it the Boss 302 would give the E3x M3 all it could handle(no pun intended) and the 2015 GT PP is just as fast-or faster-than the Boss. I'd give the current M3/4 a slight edge for now- but all bets are off when the GT350 and GT350R arrive.

Ford claims GT350R Mustang matches Porsche 911 GT3 lap time
http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-claims-gt350r-mustang-matches-porsche-911-gt3-lap-time-89242.html

I believe the price would be in the M3's ballpark but the ELLP equation are quite different. All P - No luxury at all!

robr2 · July 2015

markcincinnati said:
I would have to assume the BMW M3 would be the champ in that comparo. But, since there is no RS4 other than the avant, I see the logic of selecting an RS3.

I thought the S4 was the analog to the BMW 335 or 340 or whatever BMW is offered with a blown 6-cylinder as high performance. The M3 would typically go up against the RS version of the cars from Audi, except in this case where Audi only offers up its highest performer in SW format.

I think the goal was to show that the M3 is not the end all of sports sedans ad that it could be "beaten" by a lowly Civic.

But, we need to keep in mind that we are talking about under 1 second between the three which most of us would never feel. IMHO, day to day living with the S4 or M3 would be better than in the Civic Type R. I presume the R would be better suited to a 20 something than my 50+ YO body.

qbrozen · July 2015

roadburner said:
Track Battle: Honda Civic Type R vs BMW M3 and Audi RS3

What am I doing wrong? I click on that and it shows me a video of the Type R vs a couple of European hatches.

roadburner · July 2015

I don't know, maybe go to the AE home page and access it from there.

robr2 · July 2015

qbrozen said:

roadburner said:
Track Battle: Honda Civic Type R vs BMW M3 and Audi RS3
What am I doing wrong? I click on that and it shows me a video of the Type R vs a couple of European hatches.

Go to http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/videos

It's the third one down.

qbrozen · July 2015

ok. thanks.
Well, need to take it for what it is... a very very small track. I very often beat much more powerful cars at the autocross with my GTI, which I'm sure would not have been the case on a larger road course like NJMP, for instance.

flightnurse · July 2015

Here is an article about the new Ford GT350R, on paper it sound like a champ, the flat plain crank should give it a unique sound over the Camero SS. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-first-ride-review?src=nl&mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&date=073115

tlong · July 2015

flightnurse said:
Here is an article about the new Ford GT350R, on paper it sound like a champ, the flat plain crank should give it a unique sound over the Camero SS. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-first-ride-review?src=nl&mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&date=073115

Of course a lot of things look good on paper...

roadburner · July 2015

Based on Ford's recent track record with their performance cars(Mustang GT PP, Boss 302, Fiesta?Focus ST) I would be extremely surprised if the GT350R wasn't a world class high performance car.
That said, I'm even more intrigued by the 2016 Focus RS. It would appear to offer significant power(345 hp) in a very sophisticated AWD package- with an MSRP of less than $37k.

circlew · August 2015

'16 CTS-V http://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/31/2016-cadillac-cts-v-first-drive/

Cadillac engineers told me repeatedly that they didn't set out to "out-BMW BMW" or "chase the M5." Fair enough. My gut feeling is that former M5 owners might love this CTS-V if they gave it a true test, but I understand that what drives one person to purchase a six-figure (or nearly) German performance sedan might not be sated with a domestic badge. But the Cadillac certainly makes a strong case for itself when spec sheets are measured.

Take the previously cited competitive set from Audi, BMW, and Mercedes for example: The CTS-V has a clear power advantage over all of them. The M5 gives up 80 hp and 130 lb-ft, the RS 7 80 hp and 113 lb-ft, and the E63 by an appropriate 63 hp and 40 lb-ft. The Cadillac is the lightest of the bunch, undercutting by anywhere from 130 to 330 pounds, and only the all-wheel-drive Mercedes is quicker to 60, by two tenths of a second. But you'll have to pay out of the nose to get those tenths: the E-Class is about $17,000 more expensive, base to base. Meanwhile, the Bimmer is roughly ten grand more dear, and the slant-back Audi about twenty-five. You pays your money and takes your choice, and all that, but even for rich guys that's not chump change.

markcincinnati · August 2015

"I Can't Drive 55!"

You must know by my id here that I live in Cincinnati. The SMSA of this city is about 1.5M the last time I looked. The city itself has a population of under 400K. Technically, then, most of us don't live in the city. I earn my living, however in the corp limit, as does my wife.

I drive to work -- or at least I used to -- on two interstates: I-275 and I-71. I have tried driving on these interstates at the early and late "normal" times, and find myself often putt putting along at whatever speed the car can manage "at idle." In winter, it is even worse.

I have now taken to driving on secondary roads and residential streets -- just to be able to get to 35MPH - 50MPH.

I am, currently, driving an Audi S4 -- a car that in the blink of an eye can almost reach triple digit speeds and the thing feels like it is on rails, making it a great hi-way cruiser, capable of an easy-peasy drive from Cincinnati to Columbus at speeds north of 80MPH.

I have not driven an RS7, I have driven a 2015 S6, however, and even that was somewhat frustrating since it is capable of feats of fancy that are virtually impossible on the roads I drive to go about my business.

I used to think if I had "Trump Money", I would certainly go for a super-car or at least an "entry-level super car." Not any more.

I really enjoy my S4 -- the few times I've been able to really push it, I have been impressed with its "performance envelope." I suspect I would find going back to a 2.0T equipped A4 a let down. But, I also suspect I would find moving forward with an RS4 (if a sedan version were to be made available in the US) would be a let down, too -- or at least immensely frustrating.

An unlimited bank account would allow me to acquire, for instance, an RS7 or whatever else might pass these days as a super sedan (an M5, too, would qualify). But what advantage would I have -- I rarely can use the full accelerative force my pedestrian S4 provides. Were I to attempt to "punch it" I would, more often than not, find myself overtaking and potentially ramming ("rig for ramming speed") the pokey car in front of me.

Cutting yet another second+ off of my ability to accelerate would be -- in theory -- fun and potentially a safety feature (if you say it real fast and squint, 0-62MPH in 3.7 seconds could be a safety feature, couldn't it?) But, uh, REALLY? I think it is safe to say it is so highly unlikely I could ever use that much quickness, it would just be very, very frustrating. Heck, it is already frustrating with the "urge" my lowly S4 musters.

So, I have reached a point where I lust for the kind of performance that is available and, currently, unaffordable -- but I also balance that lust with the reality that it is not virtually impossible to use such power, it is literally impossible to do so.

So, I ask myself, why bother -- traffic is not getting any better, speeds are not getting any higher, abilities to actually use such accelerative force are waning as each day passes.

I'm just about ready to use public transportation -- oh wait, we don't have much of that here in River City, so I have to putt putt along in my "entry level super sedan" (well sort of), wondering what it would be like to, as my buddy says, "punch it."

DILYL -- 55MPH actually would be an improvement.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2015

I think you should get yourself some quick and agile dwarf car, like a Mini or Fiat Abarth. I find cars like these so much easier to drive in traffic and if you equip them correctly, they aren't the least bit spartan. Unfortunately, not cheap either.

markcincinnati · August 2015

Well, for that matter, I could probably go all the way down to a Smart car -- but, still not sure how even that would allow me to keep moving when the rest of the folks were at a virtual stand still. Besides, I drove a mini and they aren't exactly what I would call "quick."

I'm not so much lamenting the continuous move up in power as I am the continuous creep of traffic congestion and the resulting slow down of movement.

My friend who lives in Dallas says even urban Texas is suffering from progressive reduction of the speed at which one can drive and accelerate. And, I'm living in about as much "middle of nowhere" as I would want to tolerate.

Having been to Germany many times, I am impressed how it is still possible to have a high speed autobahn and fairly high speed train transportation even around the major cities. An American Autobahn would certainly be refreshing -- probably not gonna happen though.

Mean time, it seems we will have to put up with cars that are generally overkill in terms of their performance capabilities.

sweendogy · August 2015

2 recent road trips 800 total miles mostly highway I have gotten a combined 29mpg. s4 25k miles. Car does a lot well.

markcincinnati · August 2015

Sween, my S4 does similarly -- better than the 2.0T I had (2009).

I read that the HP of the S4 will be bumped to about 360, probably in an effort to differentiate the S4's performance from the S3. At this point my plan is to CPO the thing at the end of the lease and keep it for at least another year -- hope this doesn't jinx anything: this car has been bullet proof in terms of reliability and service requirements.

My only regret, no sport diff.

roadburner · August 2015

Most of today's turbo motors can achieve respectable mpg numbers assuming that they are matched with a vehicle with appropriate gearing. My Mazdaspeed averages north of 28 mpg if I keep cruise speeds under 80- that's with a tuned 2.3 liter making about 320 hp.

circlew · August 2015

This AWD Q50S is averaging 26 mpg highway/21 all around (keeping at 75 mph cruising). Not great but acceptable for a 3,700 lb. sled.

markcincinnati · August 2015

roadburner said:
Most of today's turbo motors can achieve respectable mpg numbers assuming that they are matched with a vehicle with appropriate gearing. My Mazdaspeed averages north of 28 mpg if I keep cruise speeds under 80- that's with a tuned 2.3 liter making about 320 hp.

Agreed, but the S4 is not turbo charged, rather it is super charged which ought to be less efficient one would think.

roadburner · August 2015

Well, yes and no; an SC engine uses some of the power the SC produces to operate the SC, but a turbo motor may-MAY-have more exhaust backpressure than a NA or SC motor.

flightnurse · August 2015

So Lexus did what I figured it would do, it has replaced the weak 2.5l V6 out of the IS250 and is using a modified version of the NX200 turbo 4. This past year when looking at SUV's we test drove a NX200 and wasn't all that impressed with the power it had, we both felt the BMW X3 felt faster.. The article I'm posting does not post 0-60 times..

http://blog.caranddriver.com/2016-lexus-is200t-the-entry-level-lexus-is-gets-a-much-needed-power-boost/

breld · August 2015

Certainly not surprising that Lexus is finally offering a 4 cyl turbo to compete with the other makes. I do find it kinda bizarre that it will only be RWD, and the base AWD offering will be a de-tuned version of the V6.

Having said that, it could be a very welcome offering for those lamenting the lack of "base" six-cylinder options in this segment.

breld · August 2015

markcincinnati said:
Sween, my S4 does similarly -- better than the 2.0T I had (2009).

I read that the HP of the S4 will be bumped to about 360, probably in an effort to differentiate the S4's performance from the S3. At this point my plan is to CPO the thing at the end of the lease and keep it for at least another year -- hope this doesn't jinx anything: this car has been bullet proof in terms of reliability and service requirements.

My only regret, no sport diff.

Good to know. With my wife's recent S3 acquisition, it has me thinking of a used S4 or S5.

nyccarguy · August 2015

@breld - is your wife's S3 a stick?

breld · August 2015

@nyccarguy - nope. No stick available at this point for the S3, only rumors of eventual availability.

I think she has settled in on the idea of the automatic now. We have, or have had, a few iterations of the Audi/VW DSG, and this one seems to be the best by far.

benjaminh · August 2015

Sales of some entry-level lux models for July:

small:

A3 3,167 +46.3%

CLA 2,439 +2.6%

Verano 2,379 -25.4%

ILX 1,613 +30.6%

Regal 1,541 +23.7%

CT 1,374 -30.6%

1/2series 1,028 +61.1%

more mid-size:

3series 7,729 -12.1%

Cclass 6,384 +12%

ES 5,440 -14%

IS 4,280 -5.8%

Q50 3,807 +54.7%

TLX 3,530

LaCrosse 3,451 -12%

MKZ 2,642 -4.8%

A4 2,218 -18.4%

ATS 1,588 -38.5%

S60 1,052 -39.5%

Q40 407 -69.6%

markcincinnati · August 2015

The ATS sales are particularly disappointing.

markcincinnati · August 2015

If you get a chance to read the new Road & Track opinion page by Bob Lutz, "Go Lutz Yourself," I highly encourage you to do so.

Bottom line - substance, reliability and durability are no longer the issues of concern ("there are no bad cars"), rather it is style that is (and will continue) to determine the success of the automobile. Interesting perspective.

I do understand this perspective, but I just can't bring myself to pay nearly $10,000 more for an Audi A7 over an A6 of comparable equipment, content, etc. There are plenty of other examples where the "slick" design seems to command big bucks over the essentially identical vehicle. My first "ah-ha" moment was during a BMW test-drive challenge for cancer (where you accumulate a donation based on the number of test drives you take in one day). I drove an X5 then an X6, these are the same cars -- somehow the X6 has a substantially higher asking price.

And, I actually think the X5 is better looking.

To each his/her own.

benjaminh · August 2015

Maximum Bob's words are to be taken with a grain of salt, imho.

No way do I think the long-term reliability of all makes is essentially similar this point. Wishful thinking.

sweendogy · August 2015

Can anyone name the caddy

benjaminh · August 2015

markcincinnati said:
The ATS sales are particularly disappointing.

The new boss of Cadillac seems close to crazy to me. He thinks he can charge prices above BMW? Caddy seems to be in free fall. Sad. Although that has seemingly allowed a make I like better, Acura, to pass Cadillac, which I never thought I'd see....

http://www.modernreaders.com/why-pay-500-a-month-to-lease-a-cadillac-when-you-can-pay-less-for-a-bmw/29485/lorenzo-tanos

"Cadillac Boss De Nysschen Sticks to Guns with High Lease Prices

Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen, a.k.a. the architect of what many hope would be the luxury brand’s grand comeback, hasn’t had it easy at times. Most recently, he was scored by several dealers in New York who want him to make Cadillacs cheaper by offering more affordable leases and rebates.

If you ask de Nysschen, the main thing is to “do what’s right for the brand,” and doing what’s right doesn’t include cheapening a premium brand. But is it still the right thing to do when Cadillac sales are down 1.5 percent for the first half of 2015, while the luxury space continues to surge in popularity? Consider that Caddy’s international rivals – Audi, BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes-Benz – all enjoyed 7 percent growth or better in the same period. Once again, Cadillac is the outlier in its class, and de Nysschen may need to do more. For one, Cadillac has just one crossover despite the popularity of the class, and both the CTS sedan and ATS coupe are suffering in the sales race.

One tool Cadillac can use to turn things around, dealers contend, is to offer cheaper leases for its vehicles. In a Bloomberg special report, Potamkin Cadillac (Manhattan) general manager John Bruno related that the CTS once cost under $400 per month to lease. But now, leases are worth over $500 a month, or over 20 percent more expensive, and more expensive than what one would pay to lease a comparable BMW...."

Michaell · August 2015

sweendogy said:

Can anyone name the caddy

ELR ... a rare sighting.

dino001 · August 2015

markcincinnati said:
The ATS sales are particularly disappointing.

Nearly negative 40 percent is a disaster, considering that ATS didn't even reach its midcycle upgrade and their initial stated goals for the volumes. ATS was supposed to capture the fallout of CTS sticker shock, but it seems it did no such thing - people simply walked away completely, they didn't get CTS and they didn't get ATS, either.

I wonder if that's just Cadillac's hubris, or a real strategy. For years good old GM was losing money on every car they sold and "making up in volume"

, but that "strategy" was a road to bankruptcy. Perhaps they decided to simply acknowledge they can't sell as many cars as before, but through product improvement, they can reach some sustainable level of sales, albeit lower than before. One possibility is, if they are truly capable of having superior product and financially ready to back up lower volumes, they may attempt to hop over Germans, who are going in an opposite direction, by making their brand more accessible. How difficult is that? Extremely. Even if they can make a product that beats the Germans, the logistical problems are multifold - their dealer network is too big for the lower volumes of "exlusive brand", they would have to let go many (which costs money in broken contracts), they will need to shutter or repurpose plants (which costs money) and the risk is the downward spiral may still continue (people see sales falling so they don't wont to join the "losers" club). The previous GM had completely gutless management and militant unions, which made any real downsizing impossible. Not sure if the current one can pull it off - perhaps they can. The road to brand rebuild is long and twisted.

Cadillac has been a "volume premium" brand for many decades now. It was "super rich" brand only at its inception. By the time around 50s -60s it was a car not just for a millionaire, but also for the local dentist and lawyer. It meant higher prices than popular cars, but low enough so every midsize town could have a Cadillac dealership. It's not like Jaguar, where they always were a niche player with small network, except failed rebadge Ford Mondeo experiment. Today they seem content with small market segment with very expensive product. Cadillac is simply too big for that. They need volumes. I think it's basically a failure from the sales point of view, even if the products (CTS and ATS) are best they have ever been.

dino001 · August 2015

markcincinnati said:
I do understand this perspective, but I just can't bring myself to pay nearly $10,000 more for an Audi A7 over an A6 of comparable equipment, content, etc. There are plenty of other examples where the "slick" design seems to command big bucks over the essentially identical vehicle. My first "ah-ha" moment was during a BMW test-drive challenge for cancer (where you accumulate a donation based on the number of test drives you take in one day). I drove an X5 then an X6, these are the same cars -- somehow the X6 has a substantially higher asking price. And, I actually think the X5 is better looking.
To each his/her own.

In luxury goods segment, the customization of the taste allows for big premium. It's actually part of the appeal - to have something others don't. Others may have something similar, but not the same. This is me - the color, the exterior, the interior, or these options. BMW used to boast that you could have something like 2 million combinations in their 3-series, just in the US market, this was before splitting off 4-series (I can't even imagine, how many you could have in Europe, when you have three times as many engines).

Some people are willing to pay for being different. X5/X6, A6/A7, BMW's GT or GC lines are all catering to those people. It's probably expensive to make those short lines of different bodies, so you have to pay to get them. I consider those "butique" lines an equivalent of special leather, Bang and Oluffsen audio, or other high premium options. Some people won't see a value in that (for you it's "the same" car), others will tell you that look is worth 10 grand. Just like some people would say that premium leather or audio system are marginal for them and they won't pay 5 grand for those (they may be nice, just not five grand nice).

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