A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

steine13 · August 2015

fezo said:
m - I din't know this for a fact but was always told that having half a quart too much oil in the crankcase is worse for the engine than being down a quart..

Hi fezo,
Too much oil is indeed a problem; the issue is when the level is too high, the throws of the crankshaft beat the oil into a froth, at which point it can't be pumped, the pressure goes south, and the engine is toast.. how much is too much depends on the engine, but since shops routinely overfill by a quart or so, there's some leeaway built in. I went like half a pint over, being the cautious type myself

And you're right, I should just chuck a qt under the trunk floor. Just don't feel like my wife should have to mess with this. They'll be back tomorrow.. so far, no warning light.

Cheers -m

fezo · August 2015

Well, there you go. That's what I remembered. This could kill me for a Subaru. Every so often I hear the siren call of AWD then realize I've gone my whole life without it, including many years in snowy hills and old RWD cars.

I'm pretty partial to Mazdas these days.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2015

Yes, that oil frothing is called "cavitation" and if there's too much excess oil, it could be dangerous. But I don't think 1/2 quart will hurt anything----also it's possible it could some excessive crankcase pressure.

If you want something significant to worry about, there's this:

TESLA HACKED

xwesx · August 2015

The shop next door just rescued me from a bind.

I pulled apart the steering on my '69 Econoline in order to replace the idler arm bushing. On mine, the actual bushing between the post and the sleeve (as viewed in that link) was completely disintegrated, leaving behind a fairly substantial amount of play that would manifest itself in "interesting" ways.

However, the "bushing" was more than just a bushing, but included the sleeve and the post as well, so I needed to press the sleeve on my van's mounting bracket out in order to get this one in. The problem is that I don't have the tools to accomplish this, and my attempts to use what I do have did not yield results.

The guys at the shop worked it into their schedule within an hour of my dropping it by and charged me $15 for the effort. I asked the rep to bump it to $25 and be sure express my gratitude to the tech. For me, just saving the aggravation of messing with it was worth that! I don't throw these guys a lot of business (as I do most of my work myself), but I do appreciate their attitudes and competency when I need them.

stever · August 2015

Sweet!

Must be a good day for projects. I youtubed my frig and took the faceplates and icemaker stuff out of the freezer, pulled the evap fan and played with it on my "bench" with a lamp cord. Stuffed it back in the freezer with some foam padding to try to keep any excess moisture away, theory being that the fan was icing up and that was causing it to hum loudly.

So far so good, and got it back together with no extra parts, but it may take a day or so for the icing symptom to manifest itself again. If that happens, I suppose I'll order a new part and try that. Techs often go out and "fix" this issue with a heat gun.

The poor techs have to compete with every parts company and Joe Blow handyman posting fixes all over the net now. There were at least four videos just on my little problem.

xwesx · August 2015

stever said:
The poor techs have to compete with every parts company and Joe Blow handyman posting fixes all over the net now. There were at least four videos just on my little problem.

Indeed, but there will always be work for those with the wherewithal to get to the heart of the matter. That stuff takes skill that most of us don't have simply because we choose to invest our time elsewhere (even if there is a video out there of someone else doing it).

stever · August 2015

Or you can do it but the tech can do it ten times faster (and right the first time). Time is money.

fezo · August 2015

I'm kind of surprised cardoc didn't chime in on the half a quart extra on the oil. Bit taht I consider him at my beck and call but I'd be interested in what he might have to say.

I have my Mazda 5 in for an oil change at a bit over 5k since I bought it. To tell the truth if it weren't for warranty possibilities later I;d let is slide a couple more. Not down a drop and still clean.

thecardoc3 · August 2015

What else is there to say? It's not like its the first time someone just up and decided to do something other than what is recommended. Will it hurt anything? Probably not. The engineers do try and build in some room so that minor mistakes can be tolerated.

Most don't even know how to correctly gage the oil level with a dipstick today anyway. The "correct" oil level is usually anywhere between the minimum and maximum marks, not at them. People often add oil beyond the fill spec. Some of the Toyota Prius for example have a fill spec of 3.9qt with the filter. They should NOT get all four quarts. With the Atkinson cycle engine and low tension piston rings any extra oil can result in oil making it from the cylinder back into the intake manifold, eventually collecting enough that it can get drawn back in to the cylinder during a hard acceleration and result in oil fouled spark plugs.

As far as someone not commenting on a post, its interesting that everyone avoided the last one I put up here referring to the threads on linked in. For all of the criticism the trade gets about price, seeing what these managers demand for wages while the trade self destructs under them should have gotten more attention.

xwesx · August 2015

I'm not sure what there was to say; there certainly wasn't anything there with which to disagree. Disheartening, for sure, especially for those within the trade. In some ways, I think this is a natural consequence of two compounding factors: 1., The vast majority of people owning vehicles they can ill-afford to operate, and 2., The level of technology/complication demanded from these machines that are also expected to "just work."

stever · August 2015

Leasing seems to be the wave of the future, at least until the autonomous cars arrive. Three years and it goes back to the dealer. Then it's CPO'd.

So there's ~6 years under warranty. At some point it'll be easier for the manufacturer to simply swap out the rental or CPO and ship the broken car to Central Warehousing for recycling, instead of paying techs in every dealership to fix something. Think VCRs or TVs or toasters.

Call it the subscription model.

thecardoc3 · August 2015

A few years back and of course the whole reason I ever got involved here NBC, and one of the editors for Edmunds performed one of those sting operations and of course found enough bad techs to support the story that they wanted to present. NBC did a reprise on the story attempting to exonerate the dealer and place all of the blame on the techs and service writers. That was probably the worst thing that they could have done because the dealer management is directly responsible for teaching them to do their jobs in a fashion that set them up to fall for the trap. Then to see that they (some of them) are getting wages that are ten times, if not more than what some techs make well. Let's just say the rest would probably be cut by the censor....

fezo · August 2015

Thanks. I knew the basic story but that shed more light on it.

I'm kind of with xwesx here.

thecardoc3 · August 2015

It's going to take some research to see exactly what the techs are supposed to do for a state inspection in Vermont, but there is likely a lot more to this story then has been presented at this time. http://www.wmur.com/news/licensed-car-mechanic-charged-with-manslaughter-in-customers-death/34665076

In Pa we cannot fail a car for rusty brake lines. Brake lines fail if they are leaking when we look at them, but pass the inspection if they are not leaking. Techs should advise the customer about the findings during the inspection and if the lines appear to be bad enough recommend that they be replaced but that's all they are permitted to do. There is a very good reason why its done this way. Allowing the lines to fail the inspection based on what they look like leaves the tech open to be wrong both ways in that if the tech could fail a car that someone else judges the lines to not require replacement, or the tech could pass a car only to have the lines fail shortly afterwards.

Now for the fun one, do the wheels actually have to be pulled to inspect the brakes? There are cars today that do not require the wheels to be removed in order to measure the brake linings, with disc brakes. There are some with drum brakes that the manufacturers have installed inspection ports in the backing plate and the basic check of those assemblies is all that they require unless there are other symptoms that suggest there is a problem with the system that goes beyond basic wear.

Rust, rocker panel rust can fail in some cases, and not fail in others. Even then it can be somewhat subjective.

Make sure you read through the comments, one poster now expects that the techs will fail everything and that will cost him/her more money.

I found this after a quick search. http://dmv.vermont.gov/safety/detailedinformation

xwesx · August 2015

Truly there is likely SO much more to it!

I always have a difficult time with scenarios where one person is held accountable for the effects of another person's actions. If the car really was passed without performing the required inspections, then that is a failing of the shop/tech. But, if the inspection was done to standard (how do they know it wasn't, exactly?), it's pretty desperate to blame the shop for something that happened months later.

Cars fail. I've experienced brake failure before (master cylinder went bad), and it is really scary, but then I drove another 1,500 miles to Alaska before fixing them, so I also know that the most likely reason this woman died was because her husband panicked when the brakes failed.

stever · August 2015

thecardoc3 said:
Make sure you read through the comments, one poster now expects that the techs will fail everything and that will cost him/her more money.

It could turn out like A&P mechanics. They are "licensed" techs and they also can be held accountable in lawsuits, not to mention fines and loss of their license by the FAA. So a $300 repair can become a $4,000 one.

The Savvy Aviator #51: A Mechanic's Liability (avweb.com)

thecardoc3 · August 2015

http://www.brianboardmanvt.com/car-info/
On this page the author states that the fee for an inspection is based on the shops labor rate, and then there is the $10-$25 quote in the above link.

This forum does mention prices in the $35 range, but what really gets some attention is the fact that several state that the inspection typically took the techs about 5 minutes.http://www.city-data.com/forum/vermont/586208-places-car-inspection.html

Note how some tell others to avoid certain shops that find things wrong with the car when doing an inspection. They try and make it appear to be unethical to actually have to repair a car under the program, so its no wonder that some techs would end up essentially selling stickers. They come off as hero's for not doing the job, that is until something bad happens.

xwesx · August 2015

Perhaps precisely on topic.....

Last night on the way home, I saw a 2006 Subaru Forester disabled on the side of the road with generous amounts of steam rolling from the engine. I stopped to help, and they had someone on the way already, so we chatted about the apparent issue. The guy who was with the owner (a middle-aged lady) said he figured it was "just a thermostat," but I took one look at the coolant overflow bottle and said that they definitely had bad head gaskets (as was clearly evidenced by the massive amount of combustion gunk built up in there - a telltale sign on these cars).

Immediately, the lady launches into a tirade about a local auto shop, where she took the car only a week earlier as part of her getting ready to sell it, and she had asked them for an inspection and to top off all the fluids. Well, they quickly came back with telling her that it needed new head gaskets, as well as another $600 or so in other odds and ends, for a grand total of $3,700. She then went on to say how they "didn't even top off the fluids like I asked them to, so I had to do it myself!" She specifically noted that the PS fluid and brake fluid were not done, etc.

Without trying to disregard her concerns, I noted that they weren't wrong about the head gaskets, and that it is a very labor-intensive job. I related my past work on the subject and the time involved (took me about 18 hours of labor), as well as the cost in parts. She wasn't very encouraged by all that, but hopefully came to realize that the auto shop (which generally has a good reputation) was not trying to fleece her. She asked for an inspection, and they clearly did one, but she already had the expectation that it was in top condition, so hearing otherwise only served to disappoint her.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2015

That's pretty pricey for headgaskets alone on a 2.5L Subie however. Should be about half that. Of course, we don't know what all they were going to do for the $3,700---maybe an entire top end rebuild, new hoses and belts, new radiator (I hope so!) timing belt, clutch, etc. so the quote could be quite legit.

stever · August 2015

My mechanic in the UP had done them for around $1,500. I was just asking for future reference and never had the issue on my '97 Outback.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2015

Some get lucky, but sooner or later Mr. Headgasket tracks down everyone.

stever · August 2015

I was happy to dump mine, having avoided that bullet for a decade.

My sister, the one lusting after a MINI (for several years now), has an '05 Forester that won't die. She doesn't really want to trade it or buy a MINI until the Subie starts giving her trouble, but it's pushing 160k and no leaks, and has the original gaskets afaik (she got it used). Complaints for that year don't seem high anyway but there are some reports on the net.

xwesx · August 2015

The price around here for both gaskets is $2,200-2,500 at the shops. She didn't specify what all the other things on the list were, nor what the price was specifically for the HG job. But, given the miles on the car (when I said mine had 127K on it, the guy responded "this one has a lot more than that"), I don't think the quote was out of line.

thecardoc3 · August 2015

If the Subaru needs reconditioned heads, and not just head gaskets then the estimate is probably correct.

Meanwhile this is interesting. http://www.autonews.com/article/20150706/RETAIL05/307069993/asbury-takes-tech-shortage-into-own-hands $12. hour to go to their training program and they give the tech a starter set of tools and $5000 at graduation. The only requirement after that is the graduates have to commit to working for the dealer for a year or else they have to return the tools and some of the money for the schooling. I know a shop that is looking for an entry level tech, which is what you would have after a program like this that wants to pay $10/hr.

stever · August 2015

That clawback stuff is pretty common up in Canada I understand. Not the tools so much but the employer paid education. Leave your job "early" and you have to pay your employer back.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2015

What we need is a European -style apprentice program, but geared toward American needs and culture.

For instance, if parents are going to fork over $30K to $60K a year for a kid's college education, but this kid is really into Porsches and Ferraris, why not pay an independent Porsche facility to educate him instead?

This system relieves the shop of having to support a non-productive newbie for a while (the rule being that an untrained person at a repair shop costs the shop money for the first 6 months, then "breaks even" the next 6, and finally starts making the shop some money after that).

It also relieves the apprentice of having to work at the shop after his training and can also pay for his tools. Part of the apprenticeship would be in business management, so that the newbie will have a better chance of success once he's on his own.

This program would be for young people who really want to go to the top of their game, and carve themselves a reputation perhaps in auto sports, aftermarket product development, restoration work, or even sales.

kyfdx · August 2015

thecardoc3 said:
If the Subaru needs reconditioned heads, and not just head gaskets then the estimate is probably correct.

Meanwhile this is interesting. http://www.autonews.com/article/20150706/RETAIL05/307069993/asbury-takes-tech-shortage-into-own-hands $12. hour to go to their training program and they give the tech a starter set of tools and $5000 at graduation. The only requirement after that is the graduates have to commit to working for the dealer for a year or else they have to return the tools and some of the money for the schooling. I know a shop that is looking for an entry level tech, which is what you would have after a program like this that wants to pay $10/hr.

Where I live, no one would work a job that required actual skill for $10/hr. (and, I'm not on the coast). The cashier at my local BMW dealer started at $10/hr, last year.

Amazon and Google start warehouse workers at $12/hr, just down the street from me.

If you can't pay more than that for a tech, you might as well close up.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2015

$10/hr for a tech is insulting.

xwesx · August 2015

Yeah, the

Mr_Shiftright said:
$10/hr for a tech is insulting.

Indeed! The information regarding the training program looks like a reasonable compensation to the student while going through it (and graduating), but if he has a $10/hr job to look forward to after finishing? Naw.....!

Mr_Shiftright · August 2015

Many kids raised today by helicopter parents do not want to pay any dues. They want $80K right out of college.

qbrozen · August 2015

Had an interesting adventure under the S70's hood today. AC was dead, but that has been nothing new, as I have had to charge it once per year. This time, however, it had enough freon. After some hunting around, found that rodents had chewed through the high-pressure switch wire harness. OK, kinda good news as it is an easy fix.

well, you probably already guessed that is not the end of the story. Still didn't work and I set about testing every damned component without any luck. High pressure switch OK; low pressure switch OK; compressor OK; fuses OK; relay OK; cabin temp sensor OK. It just wouldn't complete the circuit through the relay and send power to the compressor. Seemed it had something to do with the ECM not doing its job. After much web surfing, I finally found a post where someone had removed and reseated their ECM to solve what sounded like the same problem. Eh, can't hurt, right? Sure enough, that cured it! So it took about 4 hours of my life for what amounted to about 30 mins of actual work, all told. Ugh. At least it didn't cost me anything in parts.

thecardoc3 · August 2015

Sounds like disconnecting the PCM cleared a trouble code that was blocking the compressor relay command from being made. The PCM likely saw the request for AC operation, but the software didn't permit the output.

stever · August 2015

Makes sense - fixed a few computers glitches by removing parts down to the mobo and plugging them back in. Good chance to clean out the accumulated dust and cat hair too.

thecardoc3 · August 2015

You do know where the phrase "get the bugs out" came from, right?

stever · August 2015

Yeah, but I'm still not sure I believe it. Seems like it was a moth and we don't say get the moths out.

Then again, ravens and eagles short out transformer stations now and then.

(edit - found a good link about the ~~entomology~~ etymologically of "buggy")

Mr_Shiftright · August 2015

Nah, the word appears in public discourse as meaning a "fault", way back in the late 1800s. Thomas Edison is often cited as one of the early users.

thecardoc3 · September 2015

This probably deserves its own thread, but it fits here as well. It's a common theme represented in this "article", where someone play's the role of being discriminated against where they step up to fight back and try to become some kind of a hero for the effort. https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/05/the-auto-industry-discriminates-against-women-so-i-quit-my-engineering-job-to-become-a-mechanic/

Back when that was first written in the Washington post and the related TED Talk was reviewed it had of course mixed reactions in the automotive tech and shops world. Some parts were felt to be correct but most of it was believed to be over-hyped. One particular concern that those outside of the business would likely overlook was about the "go-fund me" aspect of it all. The most notable part of that was how Ms. Banks was way off target with her reported needs when it came to the kind of capitol that is required to open a shop and just what one really needs to have in order to open a shop. On just the financial perspective, she missed the mark by an order of some ten to twenty times, and depending on a given location and the shops targeted specialty it could even be some multiple of that. Worse yet was her focus on material inventory as compared to the tools and equipment required to provide the services that the customers would need her to have. If she was really ready to be a technician/shop owner then her business plan (and help request) should have reflected the real costs of opening such a business. That should be seen as a concern to consumers because anyone opening a business without a solid business plan usually finds themselves in trouble in a hurry.

A few of the women shop owners from this group
http://www.carcare.org/womens-board/ did reach out to her unsuccessfully.

thecardoc3 · September 2015

Just when you thought there was no more to say about engine oil.....http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/d417c62e#/d417c62e/36

thecardoc3 · September 2015

This one should leave a few heads shaking in disbelief.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150911/RETAIL05/150919958/colo-dealership-held-liable-in-test-drive-accident

The dealer is liable for the accident while the customer was driving during a (new to her) vehicle purchase.

roadburner · September 2015

Moronic; liability insurance for dealers will increase and customers will end up paying...

stever · September 2015

How do you figure? The article says “However, where, as here, the dealer’s representative is a passenger during the test drive, the majority rule is that the dealer is liable for the prospective purchaser’s negligence.”

So nothing much has really changed, although you may not like how it works.

Now I understand why so many dealers have been willing to let my wife and I take off on test drives by ourselves.

thecardoc3 · September 2015

stever said:

Now I understand why so many dealers have been willing to let my wife and I take off on test drives by ourselves.

OSHA would probably have something to say about an employee being put under such a workplace condition.VBG

Mr_Shiftright · September 2015

I've always been under the impression that if I'm test driving a dealer's car with a salesman, and I wreck it, the car is still his baby. I suppose if I were cited for negligence or some such, then the two insurance companies would squabble about it.

thecardoc3 · September 2015

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150907/RETAIL05/309079980/public-retailers-pump-up-service-capacity

Meanwhile, Asbury Automotive Group, of Duluth, Ga., northeast of Atlanta, this year has hired about 200 service techs across its 86 dealerships including adding "a significant number" of what the company calls "quick lube techs and tech trainees," said Renee McKenzie, Asbury's vice president of human resources.

Asbury wants to add another 250 techs over the next 12 months, primarily in Florida, Georgia and North Carolina, McKenzie said. Besides training techs internally, Asbury is getting them through referrals, outside hires and technical schools and local high schools.

An increase in warranty work due to recalls is diverting service technicians from high-profit customer-pay business, D yke said. Honda and BMW, which have issued wide-reaching recalls, account for 30 of Sonic's 102 stores, he said.

In March, Sonic created designated "warranty teams" at its 15 Honda stores to deal with warranty work and free other staff to do more customer-pay business.

Likewise, said [non-permissible content removed]: "I'd hire another 200 immediately if they were available. We're building new stores left and right and we're adding lots of service capacity."

thecardoc3 · September 2015

Here is a comment from a Linked in forum about the article that the above quotes are from...

Respectfully Tom that article is just marketing propaganda written by high level people disconnected from tech's entirely. I consistently see the really good tech's leaving the big dealerships to get paid more by the independents. They usually earn commission there, do no more warranty (which we all know is a time/money waster for tech's and writers), and they don't have to work Sundays.

These big dealers are "always" hiring new tech's because they are always loosing them by not sharing the proper amount of the profits with them and forcing them to do the low paying really long and complicated jobs while the lube techs make more than they do and know less

The "non permissible" BTW was a guy's name, suspect he is Scandinavian.

stever · September 2015

ahem, fixed.... Don't ask me why the software didn't kick out the second instance. Have to ask a tech.

But good luck finding one.

thecardoc3 · September 2015

Here is another link. This is easily one of the biggest topics right now that are being discussed. http://blog.dealertrack.com/blog/2015/9/9/3-easy-ways-to-boost-your-tech-supply

There are just too many bad aspects to the career for the talk to make a difference. The trade will continue to fail until flat rate goes away and the working conditions, wages, and benefits get moved to where they need to be.

stever · September 2015

I really do think there's an opportunity for a new business model here. If the manufacturers can't make the parts more modular so that anyone can swap out an entire system without a lot of heavy lifting (EVs?), then give the owner a loaner and transport the vehicle to a central location where a bunch of good techs can do their thing. The value of getting it fixed the first time would outweigh the transport expense.

It already happens with engine "rebuilds" - I'd rather have a reman than have a dealer do a complete rebuild of my engine (or transmission). Plenty of techs can't even get an oil change right.

Cars are pretty dumb items anyway; for all the improvement over the decades but they still are a bunch of bits and pieces that bolt together and then get covered up by pretty sheetmetal. When you pop a panel off, it's either a wiring harness mess or a bunch of parts that have to fit together just so to work, and when something wears or breaks, the whole shebang has to be disassembled to fix it. And often the part is surrounded by other parts or hoses, with frozen bolts and sharp edges to contend with.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2015

There's only two ways that dealers are going to keep top talent: 1) pay them a lot more, or 2) do like the tech companies do--make the work FUN whenever possible. If you pay low wages for drudge work, you have the perfect combination for continued failure.

xwesx · September 2015

Mr_Shiftright said:
There's only two ways that dealers are going to keep top talent: 1) pay them a lot more, or 2) do like the tech companies do--make the work FUN whenever possible. If you pay low wages for drudge work, you have the perfect combination for continued failure.

Quite true.

The thing is, though, that automotive work really IS fun! People go into this field because they love it; it's interesting, challenging, and rewarding work! So, it's a shame that the "industry" has figured out how to make the work a drudgery such that all the negative aspects overpower the inherent rewards of the job.

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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