What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

stever · September 2015

henryn said:
From the point of view of a programmer, this would be ridiculously easy

I wondered about the "sophisticated software algorithm" language in the EPA press release since it looks like all it would take would be a simple macro that even I could write. Didn't sound like a complicated feat, but when you put it in terms of machine language, that could hide the code pretty effectively.

It's ironic that the attack on Clean Diesel came from West Virginia University, home of the West Virginia Coal Hall of Fame.

Clean Coal anyone?

ruking1 · September 2015

stever said:

henryn said:
From the point of view of a programmer, this would be ridiculously easy
I wondered about the "sophisticated software algorithm" language in the EPA press release since it looks like all it would take would be a simple macro that even I could write. Didn't sound like a complicated feat, but when you put it in terms of machine language, that could hide the code pretty effectively.

It's ironic that the attack on Clean Diesel came from West Virginia University, home of the West Virginia Coal Hall of Fame.

Clean Coal anyone?

Lol!

EV is run from the electrical grid, which depends on 39% electricity produced from "clean" coal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_in_the_United_States

Nuclear provides/produces 19.5% of electricity. The math indicates a majority ( nuclear/coal) at approximately 59%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_the_United_States

It might be instructive to post the impressive SOLAR power electrical production percentage.

..."Today, solar energy provides four-tenths of 1 percent of the total energy consumed in the United States"... So if it took 18 years to get to that point, maybe in another 18 years, it will be slightly more @ 08% or STILL less than 1% ? At that rate, to generate the same volume of electricity so a/1/one nuck clear plant can be matched ( for removal presumably), of which there are 99, it will take 88 years with solar power ! ? Anybody care to put some numbers together for time needed to produce solar energy electricity to match a clean coal plant ?

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/topics/encyclopedia/solar/

EV, solar and battery would be nonexistent IF not for nuclear and clean coal. Natural gas for power plants would have a hard time starting, again without nuclear and clean coal .

stever · September 2015

Er, EV is run from the grid, which depends 45% from nuclear & ~~clean~~ coal.

Thanks for not sticking "clean" in front of nuclear.

benjaminh · September 2015

I think VW needs to start a buy back program. Give current owners full trade-in value on their 2009-2015 diesels, plus another $8k or so off on a brand new 2016 VW that doesn't pollute. Or, if they are done with VW, give em $4k for their time and trouble and send them on their way. Make the customer happy asap.

As ruking1 said, a crisis is an opportunity. They need to throw several billion dollars at this and turn it from something bad into something good. VW is a very rich company. They can do it.

Either recycle the polluting cars, or, if you're cynical and cheap, ship em to South America to sell there.

But for people who seem to hate gov't regs and pollution controls, they may have their ideal diesel already—one that defeats the EPA and CARB, gets higher mpg, has more power, and pollutes all it wants in the faces of the gov't bureaucrats.

benjaminh · September 2015

Heck, Maybe VW should just give affected diesel customers a new car for a nominal charge, as long as they sign papers promising not to sue?

ruking1 · September 2015

Yes haw! And I thought I was dreaming ....

More realistically, I wish I had zero diesels right now,? When TDI PANIC sales ensues , hopefully it will be @ way cheaper prices.

How does a midsize Mercedes Benz truck grab you? T TDI? Oh yes?!

http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/mercedes-to-reach-decision-on-u-s-sales-of-pickup-truc-1731858742

benjaminh · September 2015

According to some posts elsewhere, some VW dealers, maybe all of them, have put a "stop sale" order themselves on all of their diesels. It seems to be a directive from VW of America management.

And, not surprisingly, Consumer Reports has just taken the VW diesels that pollute off of their recommended list.

ruking1 · September 2015

benjaminh said:
According to some posts elsewhere, some VW dealers, maybe all of them, have put a "stop sale" order themselves on all of their diesels. It seems to be a directive from VW of America management.

And, not surprisingly, Consumer Reports has just taken the VW diesels that pollute off of their recommended list.

Yes, one thread grew to 48 pages in one day !

ruking1 · September 2015

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/dKef1JFpiCA

VW EPA scandal, TDI reaction. In the WW2 style.

ruking1 · September 2015

ruking1 said:

stever said:

henryn said:
From the point of view of a programmer, this would be ridiculously easy
I wondered about the "sophisticated software algorithm" language in the EPA press release since it looks like all it would take would be a simple macro that even I could write. Didn't sound like a complicated feat, but when you put it in terms of machine language, that could hide the code pretty effectively.

It's ironic that the attack on Clean Diesel came from West Virginia University, home of the West Virginia Coal Hall of Fame.

Clean Coal anyone?
Lol!

EV is run from the electrical grid, which depends on 39% electricity produced from "clean" coal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_in_the_United_States

Nuclear provides/produces 19.5% of electricity. The math indicates a majority ( nuclear/coal) at approximately 59%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_the_United_States

It might be instructive to post the impressive SOLAR power electrical production percentage.

..."Today, solar energy provides four-tenths of 1 percent of the total energy consumed in the United States"... So if it took 18 years to get to that point, maybe in another 18 years, it will be slightly more @ 08% or STILL less than 1% ? At that rate, to generate the same volume of electricity so a/1/one nuck clear plant can be matched ( for removal presumably), of which there are 99, it will take 88 years with solar power ! ? Anybody care to put some numbers together for time needed to produce solar energy electricity to match a clean coal plant ?

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/topics/encyclopedia/solar/

EV, solar and battery would be nonexistent IF not for nuclear and clean coal. Natural gas for power plants would have a hard time starting, again without nuclear and clean coal .

What EIA.gov says are the energy sources breakdown %'s
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3

benjaminh · September 2015

I live in Kentucky now, but was born and raised in California. As I mentioned, as a child and teenager the smog in LA in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s was bad almost beyond belief. But during those years, the foundations were being set for an amazing turnaround. Ronald Reagan signed legislation in 1967 establishing the California Air Resources Board. Reagan's Hollywood career began in 1937, and he himself had seen the steady decline in air quality in the three decades since. Even before that, back in 1961, when scientists had determined that cars were a huge and increasing share of air pollution in LA, California started the first tailpipe emissions regulations by requiring cars sold in the state to have positive crankcase ventilation. With a c. $10 part largely developed by GM, but given to the rest of the industry without royalties, auto emissions were cut signifcantly. By 1964, PCVs were installed nationwide voluntarily by the auto industry. This started a trend of the US following California's pioneering work in smog control.

The problem was that even as the first baby steps were being taken on tailpipe emissions, the number of cars and the miles driven were exploding in California, from c. 4 million vehicles in 1950, to 8 million in 1960, to 12 million in 1970. And so smog kept getting worse, not better, for not just years but for a couple of decades.

Since CARB came before the EPA (which was established under President Nixon in 1970--those darn liberals, Reagan and Nixon!), the EPA has consistently followed the work of CARB, using its work in California as a template for national tailpipe emission standards. Although EPA's rules usually aren't as strict, and lag behind those of CARB's by at least a few years.

By 1974, as a result, most cars had catalytic converters, significantly lowering tailpipe emission, although at the same time, as I remember as a child, degrading performance and power for several years until the technologies were steadily improved. Unleaded gas became required at the same time to allow the catalytic converters to work, taking thousands of tons of toxic lead out of the air.

Anyway, I found this 15-minute video that picks up the story from before and after this. Essentially LA went from c. 150 days of severe smog alert warnings in 1970, extremely toxic air that can hurt or in some cases even kill people with asthma and so on, to 0 days of these conditions by the year 2000. And what's even more remarkable is that during that time the number of cars and miles driven continued to dramatically increase in CA, up to c. 24 million vehicles by 2000. There are almost 30 million vehicles in California today.

Bottom line: If VW messed with and lied to CARB since 2009, they made a major miscalculation....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Ra8PRtXSU

ruking1 · September 2015

Volkswagen orders investigation into breach of US environment rules

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-investigate-breach-u-environment-130056594.html

Reagan also said trust, but verify.

My 2003/2009 VW Jetta TDI's have been VERIFIED by CA Smog Only stations on two year cycles! The same is true of the 2012 VW Touareg ! PASSED in ALL inspections. Those inspections were a TOTAL waste of time and resources , THEN . In light of this current VW hysteria, they remain a TOTAL waste of time and resources, NOW !

97.5 % + of CA's 30 M cars are GASSERS, NOT diesels.

To blame/ insinuate app way less than 750,000 TDI's in the whole state are responsible for LA LA lands RUG/PUG pollution (or CA's for that matter) is wildly delusional @ best! Just plain crazy is about as PC as I can make it.

One of the biggest things done in CA was to go from LEADED RUG/PUG to UNLEADED in the 1970's. Why lead was allowed in the first place was beyond absurd. Be that as it may, RUG/PUG is STILL ( 200 % to 600% ) dirtier (30 ppm sulfur vs 15 ppm-nominally delivered@ 5/10 ppm ) than ULSD. ZERO progress there? To boot, biodiesel is @ ZERO 0 ppm sulfur. That puts RUG/PUG figures at even greater absurdity levels.

One of the biggest mistakes that CARB made, at that time was NOT ordering LSD !!

benjaminh · September 2015

ruking1 said:
Volkswagen orders investigation into breach of US environment rules

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-investigate-breach-u-environment-130056594.html

Reagan also said trust, but verify. My 2009 VW Jetta TDI has been VERIFIED by CA Smog Only stations on two year cycles! PASSED in ALL inspections.

But apparently VW has some good code writers....!

benjaminh · September 2015

Automotive News now has a major story on it....What are they going to do with these 2015s and 2016s if they can't be fixed? Although my guess is that they will stop the production of the affected 2016s this week. Might be a year without many of the "clean diesels."

http://www.autonews.com/

"VW orders probe into breach of U.S. emissions rules
Sales of remaining 2015 models with 2.0-liter diesel engines halted
UPDATED: 9/20/15 9:50 am ET - adds details, link | 0 Comments
VW orders probe into breach of U.S. emissions rules
Volkswagen ordered an external investigation after U.S. regulators found software the carmaker designed for diesel cars gave false emissions data, CEO Martin Winterkorn said Sunday, adding he was "deeply sorry" for the violation of U.S. rules...."

stever · September 2015

"Mock, European managing director of a little-known clean-air group, suggested replicating the tests in the U.S. The U.S. has higher emissions standards than the rest of the world and a history of enforcing them, so Mock and his American counterpart, John German, were sure the U.S. versions of the vehicles would pass the emissions tests, German said. That way, they reasoned, they could show Europeans it was possible for diesel cars to run clean.

Testers drove the monitor-equipped diesels from San Diego to Seattle because if Volkswagen had gamed the emission test, they couldn’t be sure how, German said.

Then German received the results of the real-world tests

The California watchdog and the U.S. Environment Protection Agency opened an investigation into Volkswagen in May 2014, according to letters published Friday. The company said it had identified the reasons for the higher emissions and proposed a fix. That resulted in a recall of nearly 500,000 U.S. vehicles in December to implement a software patch.

At the same time, regulators were considering whether to certify VW’s 2016 models for sale -- a routine process for most automakers. Regulators said they wouldn’t approve the cars unless the company resolved the questions about real-world tailpipe pollution."

VW's Emissions Cheating Found by Curious Clean-Air Group (Bloomberg - good article that reads better than my snippets, and they've had some other good coverage)

ruking1 · September 2015

benjaminh said:

ruking1 said:
Volkswagen orders investigation into breach of US environment rules

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-investigate-breach-u-environment-130056594.html

Reagan also said trust, but verify. My 2009 VW Jetta TDI has been VERIFIED by CA Smog Only stations on two year cycles! PASSED in ALL inspections.

But apparently VW has some good code writers....!

Again, I said in another post, but ALL of the vehicles in question need to be tested 100% to see if they ALL 100% performed the magical software actions, they have been purported to have done and continue to do.

IF you believe all accounts, they still do it with 100% reliability!!!

If CARB missed this in the VW diesel over any number of years, how do they still conclude that all the other OEM's gassers do NOT have similar flaws or have not been similarly (allegedly, of course) gamed???? Again keep in mind 98% + remain GASSERS.

Microsoft/Apple etc. should hire these magical programmers that code error free!!!! This is HUGE ! I mean past Donald Trump, and the Wharton School of Business! Even GOD doesn't program with 100% reliability? Indeed that was the reason for the FLOOD.

Remember, 98% of the species that ever were on earth are extinct? Indeed, if you are a women's libber Adam was the 1.0 beta test, Eve was perfection? 2.0

That of course might be seen as good? Tha bad news might be GOD is still male?

But let's not dwell in the past. If they're that good, we should take them off the Volkswagen payroll and have them hack Russia and China, to name two! If hey are stealing billions upon trillions of dollars, we have the right to steal it back!

stever · September 2015

Well, their programmers aren't all up to nefarious schemes.

VW Starts Anti-Hacking Venture as Web-Connected Car Use Grows (Bloomberg)

henryn · September 2015

@ruking1

Again, I said in another post, but ALL of the vehicles in question need to be tested 100% to see if they ALL 100% performed the magical software actions, they have been purported to have done and continue to do.

IF you believe all accounts, they still do it with 100% reliability!!!

If CARB missed this in the VW diesel over any number of years, how do they still conclude that all the other OEM's gassers do NOT have similar flaws or have not been similarly (allegedly, of course) gamed???? Again keep in mind 98% + remain GASSERS.

Microsoft/Apple etc. should hire these magical programmers that code error free!!!! This is HUGE ! I mean past Donald Trump, and the Wharton School of Business! Even GOD doesn't program with 100% reliability? Indeed that was the reason for the FLOOD. Remember, 98% of the species that ever were on earth are extinct? Indeed, if you are a women's libber Adam was the 1.0 beta test, Eve was perfection? 2.0 That of course might be seen as good? Tha bad news might be GOD is still male?

But let's not dwell in the past. If they're that good, we should take them off the Volkswagen payroll and have them hack Russia and China, to name two! If hey are stealing billions upon trillions of dollars, we have the right to steal it back!

This is NOT magic, this does not require a high skill level. See the pseudo-code that I posted previously. Any half way adequate programmer (adequate, not highly skilled, merely adequate) could do this in one day, probably a lot less. I did say it would require highly skilled hackers to reverse-engineer the machine code, but writing it in the first place would be relatively easy. And it would be so simple, it would be very unlikely to ever fail.

Anytime the steering wheel is not moving, and the hood is unlatched, don't run the strict emissions controls. It really doesn't get much simpler than that.

Now you have brought up one good question: How do we know others aren't running the same kind of "defeat"? The answer, of course, is that we don't know. And quite obviously, we NEED to find out!

The company said it has also heard from the Justice Department, which the EPA said could pursue criminal prosecution.

I have noticed in the past, the high level executives almost never get punished. The worst that could happen, they resign with a golden parachute and millions in severance packages.

The people who ordered this are almost certainly in Germany anyway, what exactly could an American court do to a German citizen?

ruking1 · September 2015

Well really that was my point, tongue-in-cheek. If you really think that I think it's magical, or difficult, then you TOTALLY misread what I was saying . ( Geez, I was using those yellow winkies). While not a programmer, I have been in and around computer engineering for most of my career.

However, the greater issue: how does CARB miss this .....TOTALLY? and probably more germane SYSTEMATICLY. Not to mention them missing it over many years? This calls into total question the whole 29.4 M /30 M GASSER side.

IF I were VW's legal eagle, I would call for CARBs 100% testing, gasser,diesel , gas hybrid, EV sides. You can bet that it VW knew about it, so does EVERYBODY else ! ! As much as they want to blow this out of proportion, VW diesels are an infinitesimally small portion.

CARB knows the consequences, even without VW calling for it. CARB /EPA is standing in plain sight with the proverbial and literal pants down with a digit in the six o'clock position. This is a scandal of epic proportions! Mark my words, it'll get swept under the rug . So for example, what do you think is going to happen to the EPA, responsible for the Animus River toxic chemical releases?

Another car example: the 2004 Toyota Prius advertised EPA of 60 C/50 H. At the time 2003/2004 that I had it in my gun sights, I was hearing 43 mpg max. Subsequent ownership flap was so vehement, that the EPA changed car testing procedure to favor gas/hybrids. Still the changes still would not let Prius come near to those numbers. Only subsequent redesigns elevated the mpg!

stever · September 2015

Well, the gold mine was polluting before the EPA tried to clean it up (and there's 100s of abandoned mines just like that one where the owners left the taxpayers holding the bag).

One of the problems, I think, is funding. It's not cheap to do the emissions testing so the EPA just adopts the standards and spot checks the manufacturers. It's kind of like the IRS, you pay your taxes or get hammered if you get caught cheating.

But Congress won't fund the IRS so the number of audits is miniscule making the odds really good for cheaters. Probably the same sort of thing with the EPA.

What's ironic is that if you funded the agencies (and didn't subcontract out the work to contractors who would charge the taxpayers twice as much) then the cheating would ease and the revenues from simple compliance would more than fund the IRS and the air would continue to stay clean(er). But no, government is a big bad boogieman that must be hindered at every turn. The heck with our lungs and our asthmatic kids.

Don't know how CARB does it.

ruking1 · September 2015

stever said:
...

One of the problems, I think, is funding. It's not cheap to do the emissions testing so the EPA just adopts the standards and spot checks the manufacturers. ...

Don't know how CARB does it.

Well yes, I guess they buy holy water wholesale. I wonder how much they pay for incense, on the front end, being as how this stuff is smoke and mirrors? Like you've heard me say more than once, I can't even make this stuff up!

You commentis does not explain the government required smog certifications that are required to be done by the car owners.

So what you are saying defacto : Buddha bless you at every checkpoint. Pay the man @ each checkpoint waving the holy water !

stever · September 2015

Glad you agree with me but we're talking clean air, not clean water.

ruking1 · September 2015

stever said:
Glad you agree with me but we're talking clean air, not clean water.

Ok, let's get the sequence right here.

The holy h20 is to bless the bogus certified clean air tests.

The incense ( cough cough) is for the smoke and mirrors.

houdini1 · September 2015

ruking1 said:

benjaminh said:

ruking1 said:
Volkswagen orders investigation into breach of US environment rules

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-investigate-breach-u-environment-130056594.html

Reagan also said trust, but verify. My 2009 VW Jetta TDI has been VERIFIED by CA Smog Only stations on two year cycles! PASSED in ALL inspections.

But apparently VW has some good code writers....!

Again, I said in another post, but ALL of the vehicles in question need to be tested 100% to see if they ALL 100% performed the magical software actions, they have been purported to have done and continue to do.

IF you believe all accounts, they still do it with 100% reliability!!!

If CARB missed this in the VW diesel over any number of years, how do they still conclude that all the other OEM's gassers do NOT have similar flaws or have not been similarly (allegedly, of course) gamed???? Again keep in mind 98% + remain GASSERS.

Microsoft/Apple etc. should hire these magical programmers that code error free!!!! This is HUGE ! I mean past Donald Trump, and the Wharton School of Business! Even GOD doesn't program with 100% reliability? Indeed that was the reason for the FLOOD. Remember, 98% of the species that ever were on earth are extinct? Indeed, if you are a women's libber Adam was the 1.0 beta test, Eve was perfection? 2.0 That of course might be seen as good? Tha bad news might be GOD is still male?

But let's not dwell in the past. If they're that good, we should take them off the Volkswagen payroll and have them hack Russia and China, to name two! If hey are stealing billions upon trillions of dollars, we have the right to steal it back!

All the more astounding, considering it was VW doing this fancy coding !

ruking1 · September 2015

Exactly!

In other news, here is MB's CEO doing the "Lois Learner" or H. Clinton"s state dept official moonlighting on her unauthorized server, handling the highest classified documents. Some of those are literally burn before reading.

If anyone else in the classified material food chain mishandle just ONE classified document, they'd get three hots, a cot and a b/g f named bubba for easily 10 years.

..."Volkswagen peer Daimler, meanwhile, signaled it may not be subject to the same violation.

"I have a rough idea of what is happening and that it does not apply to us," Daimler Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche said on Sunday at an event in Hamburg.

"But it is much too early to make a final statement on this," he added."...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-investigate-breach-u-environment-rules-130056470--finance.html

I also can guess some of the technical issues. The GTG's attended over the years have been instructive. But then neither VW nor MB will be prosecuted on what I think or guess. But on the other hand, on first look, I'd take $37,500 to settle on my 2009 VW Jetta TDI sub 100,000 miles ! Fat chance!

I think the truth is much closer to what I've been saying all along: follow the money. Using the MB 350/250 BT as an example: the governments would rather receive taxes on 22 mpg (.0276) rather than 35 miles mpg.(.0182) (60.75 vs 63.78 CA) 52% more per mile driven. No brainer here, CRUSH the diesel segment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States

gagrice · September 2015

Well folks I have read every article posted on this. And they all seem to be using the same authors. The only testing the EPA/CARB has used is this company from the EU, running road tests with a device stuck up the tailpipe, built by some people in WV that are alternative energy wonks. Doesn't that raise a red flag for anyone else? If CARB and EPA have NO legitimate testing equipment for diesel exhaust, I think this is premature. If they have ripped me off on my smog check by hooking up to the Touareg's computer and believing what they read, I want my $58 back.

What all this goat roping fiasco tells me is the Government has NO way to tell if my diesel is emitting pollution on the highway. And that goes for millions of diesel trucks out on the road. Sniff and watch for black smoke.

Someone posted a long dissertation about CARB and EPA and Los Angeles smog. I was also raised there. I could not breathe from the horrible air during the 1950s and 60s into the 70s. Getting the lead out of gas was at least 95% of the problem. The rest is fine tuning of the exhaust systems. Getting the Sulfur out of diesel was the big difference between dirty diesel and clean diesel. Most of the recent developments have only cut very minute amounts of pollution. Ships are still the largest polluters on the planet.

Time for a reality check that is needed around here from time to time. EPA and CARB go for the low fruit and don't worry about the real polluters. Thanks to the oligarchy that owns our government.

As ships get bigger, the pollution is getting worse. The most staggering statistic of all is that just 16 of the world’s largest ships can produce as much lung-clogging sulphur pollution as all the world’s cars.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

gagrice · September 2015

benjaminh said:
I live in Kentucky now, but was born and raised in California.

You should be thankful, at least for a while. Wait until the EPA you love takes away your cheap electricity produced by coal. You will go from 7 cents per KWH to 42 cents and rising like we pay in CA because they want absolutely pristine air. Look at your electric bill from when you run your AC and see what you will pay. The price we pay in CA is so we can brag about all the Wind and Solar power. Of course we need lots of natural gas powered generators for when the wind don't blow and the sun don't shine. Or like so many of my neighbors I could spend $30k on a solar system for my home and hope it lasts until it pays for itself.

Just for the record, the average Tesla uses about 1 KWH to go 3 miles. Or in San Diego that is 14 cents a mile. About 40% more expensive than driving my Touareg TDI. And I don't have to kill my back getting into and out of my SUV.

ruking1 · September 2015

Yes, as bad as that is, it is completely drawfed by natural emissions. Hawaii, for example should be considered a toxic waste zone, due to known and ongoing volcanic emissions/eruptions. The state needs to be evacuated! Yet it is considered one of the most beautiful places on the earth. If the Eco narrative is to be believed, that is wildly skitzoid !!!!!

Where to move Em? Why near Yellowstone National Park, of course !

stever · September 2015

One of my links said the outfit hired the West Virginians because they had the equipment they needed to test the cars. The reason the outfit wanted to test the TDIs was to convince the Europeans that diesels could be clean. Didn't work out as they had planned.

henryn · September 2015

gagrice said:
Well folks I have read every article posted on this. And they all seem to be using the same authors. The only testing the EPA/CARB has used is this company from the EU, running road tests with a device stuck up the tailpipe, built by some people in WV that are alternative energy wonks. Doesn't that raise a red flag for anyone else? If CARB and EPA have NO legitimate testing equipment for diesel exhaust, I think this is premature. If they have ripped me off on my smog check by hooking up to the Touareg's computer and believing what they read, I want my $58 back.

They didn't "believe what they read", they were told the truth by their monitoring equipment. At that moment in time, there was no illegal pollution going on. Why? Because the hood was unlatched, and the steering wheel was not moving.

This ain't rocket science, folks.

I like diesels, I think we would be better off with more diesels.

But the two diesel apologists on this forum are losing all credibility. All.

ruking1 · September 2015

Too funny. It really doesn't change a thing for most people, whether gasser, diesel, gas hybrid or EV. I am also with you there . It is far from rocket science! I am in complete compliance with CA smog requirements, regardless of whether I think I am getting ripped off with an unnecessary inspection, or not. Or whether or not someone or some folks cooked the VW emissions books. Loss of credibility to for me? Not even close!

ruking1 · September 2015

gagrice said:

benjaminh said:
I live in Kentucky now, but was born and raised in California.

...

Just for the record, the average Tesla uses about 1 KWH to go 3 miles. Or in San Diego that is 14 cents a mile. About 40% more expensive than driving my Touareg TDI. And I don't have to kill my back getting into and out of my SUV.

Given what I have gleaned, app 14 cents pmd: fuel is what I calculated. On the 12 Touareg TDI with about 33 mpg @$2.44 gal of ULSD = approximately 90% more. Over the 180,000 miles, that's a fair chunk of change. If I bought a $35,000 solar panel system @ approximately 15,000 miles a year, it will take me about 17 years to break even. If I bought 14,344 gal of diesel @ 33 mpg that will give me 473,361 miles of commute miles. That's 31.56 years of extra commuting.@ 15,000 miles per year. If don't do that and just plug into the USA grid, 59% of the electricity is provided by clean coal and clean nuclear. Of course that would throw me to highest and higher penalty tiers, which is app 44 cents per KWH.

benjaminh · September 2015

gagrice said:
...I could not breathe from the horrible air during the 1950s and 60s into the 70s....

Well, you largely have CARB (and Ronald Reagan) to thank for the fact that you and millions of others can breathe in comfort now.

But I think it's true that CARB and the EPA need to start doing significant levels of real world testing with not just diesels, but with gas cars as well. I assume they are gearing up to do that now.

One question is obviously: how many people at VW knew about this? My guess is quite a few, although probably there's no record of it. My son, who is a computer science major in college, offered this speculation for how this could have happened: back in c. 2007 someone wrote a simple piece of code, as suggested, as a "stop gap" measure as the car and engine were being developed. They assumed that it would fixed it down the line, by someone else, as the engineering on the engine and emissions system were completed. But then this never got done. And when CARB and the EPA gave certificates, it just became a "don't rock the boat" situation. Probably a few people in powertrain and software knew, but swept it under the rug. Perhaps a few execs knew as well, and similarly said ignore it.

VW has whined in the past about its diesels being picked on unfairly in the US. Perhaps that corporate culture of victimization leaked down to the people doing this, who mentally excused themselves because they thought the regs were too tough and "unfair."

But, as other have suggested, in many ways this is a black eye for CARB and the EPA too. How did this problem go undetected for 6 years?! Shows their certifications for compliance sometimes aren't worth the paper or electrons used to compose them. They need to change their testing policies asap....

kyfdx · September 2015

VW stock down 20% today

texases · September 2015

Here's a good summary:
jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018

stever · September 2015

kyfdx said:
VW stock down 20% today

Good time to buy.

"To some extent the cheating by Volkswagen seems more blatant (than Toyota's SUA recall), but the numbers are lower and there are no fatalities involved," Stadler said. "This suggests that in the 'heat of the moment' the long-term effect on Volkswagen may be overstated. Sure it will hurt, but maybe not quite as bad as we expect right now."

Story from Yahoo and that's my parenthetical note in the quote.

Might be a good time to buy a gasser VW too, since the dealers just lost ~25% of their inventory and may be hurting for customers. Or even an AdBlue VW, assuming they aren't affected by the stop order. Don't know if the certification for the 2016 AdBlues has been stalled. (in the comments, the author of the Jalopnik story says they are stalled too).

texases · September 2015

There were no REAL fatalities involved in the Toyota problem. There was no actual finding of a design defect. Improper floor mat installation doesn't qualify, in my opinion. The fine was only for how Toyota failed to follow the rules on reporting to the US government agencies.

ruking1 · September 2015

kyfdx said:
VW stock down 20% today

And what a wonderful short ! It is hard to over emphasize! In less than one trading day, it's paid for all the diesels I've ever gotten and then some.

I only wish I had caught it at the 52-week high and sold today (52 wk low) ! The gains would be enough to buy a Bentley. Oh well, guess I have to settle for VW's ( dah people's car) (Touareg ).

stever · September 2015

May have lost my bargain window for getting a Prius.

Then again, gas is heading for $1.99 all over....

stever · September 2015

Hm, sounds like DEF dosing may have been tinkered with too. But perhaps only in the 2.0 liter diesels. CARB.

Bet CARB requires (re)testing of all of VW's diesels now.

texases · September 2015

No DEF on those 2.0 TDIs. I think that's the big problem. No way to retrofit, either, I'd think.

ruking1 · September 2015

stever said:
Hm, sounds like DEF dosing may have been tinkered with too. But perhaps only in the 2.0 liter diesels. CARB.

Bet CARB requires (re)testing of all of VW's diesels now.

How do you mean ? Gagrice and I have stated very clearly that they are required to go through CA smog only testing on 2 year cycles. His and all of mine have passed.

ruking1 · September 2015

stever said:
May have lost my bargain window for getting a Prius.

Then again, gas is heading for $1.99 all over....

From what I can gather, Toyota has seldom seemed to want to bargain on the Prius. With gas heading to sub $1.90 , counterintuitively I think it's a good time.

stever · September 2015

I don't think CARB believes the testing. I think they are concerned that there's another software cheat that pumps up the DEF when the other VW diesels are tested.

I want to feel some schadenfreude after all the comments by the clean diesel crowd but this corporate nonsense directly affects my one nephew in Chattanooga who works for a supplier making interior bits for VW and other car manufacturers.

Place your bets:

How much will DieselGate cost VW?

stever · September 2015

texases said:
No DEF on those 2.0 TDIs. I think that's the big problem. No way to retrofit, either, I'd think.

I thought I read somewhere this morning that at least one 2.0l has DEF. Maybe the Passat?

A retrofit would require plumbing and could take up some interior room. Owners wouldn't like that, even if it were possible.

stever · September 2015

A reporter is looking to talk with a VW diesel owner affected by the recall. Please email PR@edmunds.com today, 9/21/15, if you would like to share your perspective.

ruking1 · September 2015

stever said:
A reporter is looking to talk with a VW diesel owner affected by the recall. Please email PR@edmunds.com today, 9/21/15, if you would like to share your perspective.

Again, I'm not really sure what that means, from the customers' perspective. I have received no letters. Nor has the dealer called me up to immediately bring the 09 Jetta TDI in, for... anything.

Now my guess is whatever they do at the dealer or corporate has to be all good. Sure, not peel me a grape good.

Early on in ownership, there was a question about the DSG. The warranty went up to 100,000 miles . I've posted about how VW stepped up and took care of the high-pressure fuel pump issue . Perhaps my emissions systems will get double the mileage warranty to say 250,000 miles. Or, they will cover it whenever it needs repair. There is no DEF system , aka catalytic converter.

The local dealers have taken care of goofy stuff that I would never imagined it would have. They have replaced free of charge lamps that have blown out. They've replace batteries with generous proration. They even wash the car after each visit.

texases · September 2015

"I thought I read somewhere this morning that at least one 2.0l has DEF. Maybe the Passat?"

You're right, maybe the Passat, but the big issue is all the 100,000s of Golfs and Jettas without DEF. VW may not be able to 'fix' them to meet regs. Then what???

stever · September 2015

Maybe VW can plant a tree for every one they leave on the road. And fill Berkeley with hanging baskets full of spider plants....

ruking1 · September 2015

stever said:
Maybe VW can plant a tree for every one they leave on the road. And fill Berkeley with hanging baskets full of spider plants....

GO BEARS! Go Berkeley Enginerring!

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