What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1 · October 2015

Here's a good Sergeant Schultz response by Toyota.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-officials-ask-isis-got-many-toyota-trucks-175832211--abc-news-topstories.html

I can't even make this stuff up!

gagrice · October 2015

ruking1 said:
Here's a good Sergeant Schultz response by Toyota.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-officials-ask-isis-got-many-toyota-trucks-175832211--abc-news-topstories.html

I can't even make this stuff up!

We know how they got thousand of our Hummers and tanks. We left them there with the keys in them. Not to worry though.

stever · October 2015

"Volkswagen did not just consider its clean diesels comparable to hybrids or plug-in electrics; it believed they were superior, Ms. Oge said.

“These people had religion,” she said. “And that religion was diesel. They simply did not believe in electric powertrains and thought they were a waste of time.”

“The Volkswagen management was extraordinarily arrogant. They thought they were the kings of diesel.”

While German rivals like BMW had been developing electric cars, and Mercedes-Benz — which also boycotted the announcement over concerns the rules favored American trucks — had invested in alternatives like fuel cell technology, Volkswagen had thrown its entire weight behind the promise of clean diesels."

Volkswagen Sought a Green Seal for Its Diesel Cars (NY Times)

benjaminh · October 2015

It seems that some in Congress want to use the VW hearing to see if they should weaken diesel smog standards. And I suppose they might be able to do it for much of the nation, although since the rules are science based, with measurable health benefits, I hope not. But Congress would, I think, find it difficult to overrule the California Air Resources Board, which as we've discussed existed even before the EPA and has it's own authority:

from Auto News:

"The lawmakers will also evaluate whether current U.S. environmental regulations are too strict for companies to comply, when questions turn to a second panel including two senior EPA officials -- Christopher Grundler, director of the Office of Transportation and Air Quality and Phillip Brooks, director of the Air Enforcement Division.

"If the standards are too strict for diesel cars, we'll have to figure that out," said Rep. Diana DeGette, D-Colo., the top Democrat for subcommittee."

http://www.autonews.com/article/20151007/OEM11/151009877/u-s-hearing-into-vw-violations-put-industry-epa-under-scrutiny

ruking1 · October 2015

Empirical cumulative studies and real world cumulative tracking indicate that N0x from gasser cars, light trucks, gas hybrids and SUV's are by far a much greater problem area than the nearly immeasurable diesel car, hybrid,SUV & light trucks.

To be as clear as possible, diesel cars, in real world cumulative tracking raised absolutely ZERO/ZIP/NADA red flags, even in the smoggiest area (AQMD) in the entire nation!!! This is even WITH the VW fiasco & over many "undiscovered " years. So yes, it should be recalibrated.(higher)

Wow!? Even the US Congress is wondering why EPA et al, were all asleep at the wheels??

gagrice · October 2015

Ms. Oge said“These people had religion,” she said. “And that religion was diesel. They simply did not believe in electric powertrains and thought they were a waste of time.”

Someone is lying, I would guess it to be our government representative. VW was building EVs at that time period, and offering hybrids in the USA. VW as far as I know still holds the MPG record with the XL-1 hybrid.

This in 2000 from the most powerful man at VW:

When the new millennium was ushered in, Prof. Dr. Ferdinand Piëch, who is today Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Volkswagen AG, formulated the visionary goal of bringing to the market a production car that was practical for everyday use with a fuel consumption of 1.0 litre per 100 km. In the new XL1, Volkswagen is demonstrating that this goal is now within reach.

I think Ms Oge is making stuff up to sound intelligent. Or just another diesel hater.
From a dealer that was stuck trying to sell a Touareg Hybrid: "We will lose our shorts on this thing" It was already 2 years on the books.

ruking1 · October 2015

If 25% DIESEL is religion, by defacto definition, gassers over 25% are WAY beyond religion? So what is 97%+plus gassers?? CULT? STATE religion? THE only way?

So I would agree, diesel hater!

ruking1 · October 2015

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-massive-volkswagen-recall-is-coming-in-january-2015-10?r=UK&IR=T

The above link is almost as plain English as any article I have seen. It is one thing I've been saying all along, that the cushy (inflexible,aka rigid) VW union contracts have to end. This is despite union, state, union pension, ownerships.

Some other things are: as a minimum, prices have to go down ($2,000 is a kick start) Costs have to go down. Even as VW flips back and forth from the #1/2 positions, sales volumes have to go up.

gagrice · October 2015

"If the standards are too strict for diesel cars, we'll have to figure that out," said Rep. Diana DeGette, D-Colo., the top Democrat for subcommittee."

I believe EPA/CARB regulations are specifically designed to make it near impossible for diesel engines to exist. They have no problem fudging for gassers when it comes to the far more dangerous CH4.

My example is the beautiful award winning Honda diesel engine they were ready to sell here in 2008. It passed the CARB gauntlet with a stick shift but not their automatic transmission. That to me is pretty nit picking. Without diesels Honda would not sell much in Europe. They dropped their hybrids there. They have a new diesel engine, we are not likely to see here.

The main highlight of the Honda CR-V facelift is the new 1.6-liter i-DTEC four-cylinder turbodiesel engine that produces 160PS (158hp) and 350Nm (258lb-ft) of torque, offered with an optional 9-speed automatic transmission that helps reduce fuel consumption compared to the previous 5-speed auto.

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/01/honda-details-euro-spec-cr-v-4wd-diesel.html

The oil companies have the same problem in 2015 as Rockefeller had in 1900. It was nasty smelling toxic stuff then, and still is. That is why they maintain control of the EPA.

An early example of this was a very noxious product that other refiners couldn’t wait to get rid of. They threw away barrels of the stuff down the creeks and rivers, and this toxic runoff made Ohio’s Cuyahoga River flammable. It was said that if a steamboat threw away hot coals overboard, the water would catch fire.

Rockefeller, on the other hand, found uses for this toxic byproduct to fuel part of their refining process. What was this “waste” product? It was gasoline.

http://www.attendly.com/rockefellers-unconventional-approach-to-getting-rid-of-waste/

ruking1 · October 2015

The European 1.6 Liter DTEC 258 #. ft Honda CRV with the optional 9 sp AT, that you linked @ 44/46 mpg US gal, puts it FAR ahead of one of the top selling US compacts, the Honda CRV CUV. Fuelly.com has the 2015 US version @ 27.4 mpg. (1 engine, 1 trans) The European version posts roughly 61% better MPG!!? ( misleading due to 3 engines, 3 trans)

It is easy to see why there are a lot of US diesel haters. Yet if we had the European options, what would be the incentive to buy the gas option?

Many years later they still can't kill gasoline! ?

texases · October 2015

Where'd the 48 mpg come from? EU rating? They're way overstated.

gagrice · October 2015

texases said:
Where'd the 48 mpg come from? EU rating? They're way overstated.

I am assuming you are referring to the Honda CR-V with 1.6L diesel engine. The UK combined rating is 62.8 MPG UK, which would be 52.29 MPG US. With a WONDERFUL 800 mile range.

texases · October 2015

Their ratings are typically 20% higher than real world number, so that 52 mpg is more like 40 mpg.

ruking1 · October 2015

gagrice said:

texases said:
Where'd the 48 mpg come from? EU rating? They're way overstated.
I am assuming you are referring to the Honda CR-V with 1.6L diesel engine. The UK combined rating is 62.8 MPG UK, which would be 52.29 MPG US. With a WONDERFUL 800 mile range.

Yeah, I think US Honda CRV owners would have an even better appreciation for their vehicle if they had the two diesel options, not to mention the trans options, other than the CVT.

stever · October 2015

"Volkswagen AG on Wednesday said it will launch a massive recall in January of vehicles that have been affected by the emissions test scandal that has rocked Europe’s largest auto manufacturer.

The recall will begin in the new year once German authorities have approved the company’s plans to fix the cars.... The recall is expected to be completed by the end of 2016."

Mr. Müller told the newspaper that the company “doesn’t need three solutions, but thousands,” since the EA 189 engine was broadly used in several models with country-specific variations.

A software update would be sufficient for most cars, but other vehicles would require new fuel injection equipment and catalytic converters, Mr. Müller repeated."

Volkswagen to Launch Massive Vehicle Recall in January (WSJ - may be a registration link)

There's no specific mention about the recall in the US in this article..

gagrice · October 2015

The VW announcement it did not hurt my VLKAY stock. Price is up a buck and a half this morning.

Matthias Mueller, the man that Volkswagen hopes will save the company after Emissions-gate, has revealed the first stage in his rescue plan. According to Reuters, the executive told German media that the firm will begin recalling its emissions-cheating vehicles in January, with the program running until the end of 2016. Mueller is quoted as saying that the vehicles will all be "fixed" by that date, implying that the company has found a safe way to reduce their emissions levels. In addition, Mueller has revealed that he's using the crisis as justification to conduct a top-down reorganization of the German car conglomerate. The chief has pledged to make his company smaller and less centralized, adding that each of its various divisions will have to justify their contribution to the overall firm. Which, if we're honest, sounds ominous in the extreme.

http://www.engadget.com/2015/10/07/volkswagen-2016-recall/

ruking1 · October 2015

Glad to hear you didn't take any losses on VW stock !

I'm not sure why they consider the reorganization ominous ! Even before diesel gate, it's reorganize or the competition will crush VW. A blind person can see that coming.

stever · October 2015

Investors like certainty, or at least predictability.

VW has admitted they screwed up, has money and cash flow to address the problem, and some time to deal with it. It's going to get a bit rocky now and then as the fines and suits hit, and there's the backlash from layoffs. Expect quite a bit of volatility for a year or so.

ruking1 · October 2015

stever said:
Investors like certainty, or at least predictability.

VW has admitted they screwed up, has money and cash flow to address the problem, and some time to deal with it. It's going to get a bit rocky now and then as the fines and suits hit, and there's the backlash from layoffs. Expect quite a bit of volatility for a year or so.

I was actually quite thankful for the volatility!

gagrice · October 2015

Glad to hear you didn't take any losses on VW stock !

I just bought in last week at 23.xx, it is going higher now at $26.36. Wish I was not so conservative. I would have bought a lot more.

As for lawsuits, I don't think they will amount to much if VW fixes their car and they have not had any injuries. Not like their car is putting out near the NOx every diesel semi puts out on the highway. If they are worried about their green image they should be riding a bike.

ruking1 · October 2015

While I only have one allegedly " affected " vehicle, I basically want VW to fix the " perceived " problem. Given past transactions, I have no doubt they will.

The galling thing is the governments SEEM to want to hold the owners responsible for something they didn't do, and neither did the owners. Indeed the ones that hold the real responsibility ARE the government agencies that let VW, in this case get away with it @ the front/back ends!! Is there no one else that thinks CARB/EPA has a HUGE credibility problem with the 97%plus gassers?

I would be highly disappointed if I didn't get the before and after emissions snapshots/tests. Without them, this is yet another EPA/CARB lies and CARB/EPA will swear to it scenario. Again, not to sound like a broken record, but isn't this the EXACT same thing that got everybody in trouble to begin with ? Of course they will probably charge me even more for the smog tests.. You know, the smog test where they don't test anything?

Gezzzzzzzz! I can't even make this crap up !

stever · October 2015

gagrice said:
If they are worried about their green image they should be riding a bike.

I guess it's cheaper to farm out some bikes and put your name on them than to follow the emission regs.

Volkswagen bikes

ruking1 · October 2015

stever said:

gagrice said:
If they are worried about their green image they should be riding a bike.
I guess it's cheaper to farm out some bikes and put your name on them than to follow the emission regs.

Volkswagen bikes

Well the real truth is that bike should start paying their fair share for ROADS, etc., They should buy insurance, pay registration fees, etc., etc. There is a bogus argument that since bike drivers are car drivers, they actually pay for it anyway. I submit that if I buy more than one car, I get ZERO discounts on any of the fees !

stever · October 2015

You should be feeling sorry for the football* fans and not worrying about the people who aren't taking up your parking spaces as they run their errands. *Er, futball...oh, soccer then.

"As Volkswagen tries to slowly rebuild its reputation, Winterkorn's successor Matthias Muller says all aspects of the company's business will be reviewed -- including their investment in football."

New Volkswagen chief executive to 'leave no stone unturned' (espnfc.com)

ruking1 · October 2015

stever said:
You should be feeling sorry for the football* fans and not worrying about the people who aren't taking up your parking spaces as they run their errands. *Er, futball...oh, soccer then.

"As Volkswagen tries to slowly rebuild its reputation, Winterkorn's successor Matthias Muller says all aspects of the company's business will be reviewed -- including their investment in football."

New Volkswagen chief executive to 'leave no stone unturned' (espnfc.com)

It must be an even slower news day if they have to print crap like this! VW should know to the $ how much marketing, like football contributes to the bottom line.

stever · October 2015

Half the time when I call my brother in TN, he's hanging out at some field watching the grandkids play.

"Setting up the “Chattanooga Football Club” in 2008, the team’s founders lured a $500 sponsorship from the local Volkswagen dealer to get the team going and the commitment eventually ballooned to nearly $50,000 when the company itself started funding it." (WSJ)

Different team.

ruking1 · October 2015

Might be a good question for him then. IF Volkswagen is contributing $50,000 per year, how many cars are actually VW's, a.k.a. late models.? IF it is less than 80 late model VW's circa 2008 on up per year, it is probably a huge to inefficient waste. It would make more sense to offer an actual buyer $ 1,250 to $600. off. But then VW only makes app $650 per car!

stever · October 2015

Sounds like good PR to me, especially in a factory town. Just from my visits there, you sure notice a lot of new VWs running around, especially the Passats made there. Lots of employee discount cars I'm sure. No idea on real numbers though.

One for @gagrice - Volkswagen Stock Chart Is Looking Like BP's After Oil Spill (Bloomberg)

ruking1 · October 2015

stever said:
Sounds like good PR to me, especially in a factory town. Just from my visits there, you sure notice a lot of new VWs running around, especially the Passats made there. Lots of employee discount cars I'm sure. No idea on real numbers though.

One for @gagrice - Volkswagen Stock Chart Is Looking Like BP's After Oil Spill (Bloomberg)

Well you got me there, because they give employee discounts, it is difficult to ascertain how much VW makes per employee discounted car, or what the policy is. So the number of cars should be higher. I'd say easily 2x's more.

ruking1 · October 2015

More on topic, from what I have gleaned, it doesn't appear that my 2009 Jetta TDI will exceed a software reflashing, or exceed app $600 retail per car. VW has set aside roughly €6.5 billion to fix 11 million cars world wide. So if I did my math correctly that's approximately €591 for car, or $ 664 US.

Purely a guesstimate, I have read legal costs might log in @ €15 billion and extra monies for fixes at €10 billion.

Interesting that I saw this statistic in the Wall Street Journal OPINION article and not in any CAR magazine. The 2008 nitrous oxide standard is .07 grams./mile.

Indeed it is already a 90% REDUCTION of the AVERAGE PVF (cars) on the road. Indeed most cars EXCEED this standard according to ...me? Hell no! According to the EPA!!! As well documented, 97% + plus of the passenger vehicle fleet are GASSERS !!! The standard represents about 1/40 of the output of the average pick up truck (gasoline or diesel).

Health effects for the diesel PVF indeed might be systematically exaggerated i.e. greatly, even @ 5 to 20 deaths per year.
One might think that no nukes is good nukes ( in the Louis Rukeyser style) , but he has an interesting conclusion.

How to Settle the VW Scandal, By Holman W. Jenkins Jr., Page A13, WSJ , Wed, Oct7, 2015.

imidazol97 · October 2015

stever said:
Sounds like good PR to me, especially in a factory town. Just from my visits there, you sure notice a lot of new VWs running around, especially the Passats made there. Lots of employee discount cars I'm sure. No idea on real numbers though.

Isn't selling all those employee discount cars a lot like selling into fleets and rentals?

stever · October 2015

When I saw "clean nukes" I moved back to the front page @ruking1.

I think there's ~2,000 VW employees in Chattanooga. Figure another, I dunno, let's go big - 10,000 suppliers in a day's drive who may get the same discount (a day's drive is half the US population). .

That's a big fleet of potential discounts.

ruking1 · October 2015

stever said:
When I saw "clean nukes" I moved back to the front page @ruking1.

I think there's ~2,000 VW employees in Chattanooga. Figure another, I dunno, let's go big - 10,000 suppliers in a day's drive who may get the same discount (a day's drive is half the US population). .

That's a big fleet of potential discounts.

LOL! I can't say I blame you, the numbers are really compelling @ 59.5% clean: nuclear/coal with less than one half of 1% being supplied by wind and solar. It's a further slamdunk because it will take roughly 88 years to be able to decommission one nuclear plant at the current rate of wind and solar progression. The same is probably true of coal fired plants. Keep in mind that there are a host of very very stiff resistances environmentally and otherwise tto new natural gas fired plants. Quite ironically, there are environmental resistances to solar and wind . This in-action further gives the existing power plants even longer life!

Here's an easy one, Hoover dam was commissioned in or put online in 1936, 80 years in operation. So to provide electrical energy, it has been disrupting the natural flow in the environment. Environmentalist hate it. Who knows it could cause all sorts of unintended consequences that we really have not taken notice of, stuff Like earthquakes, weather change due to altered earth rotation, etc ., etc.

So what would it take to replace its electrical energy output? Is it being built right now? A new project can face easily 10 years of court challenges. Do you think it's going to be taken off-line or decommissioned soon? . Even SoCal environmentalist like water coming out of their taps and AC. Oh and lights @ night.

texases · October 2015

Wind's at 4.4%

ruking1 · October 2015

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3

Here is a 2014 breakdown. Wind @ 4.4% blew by the reference I was using. Solar still dismal @ less than one half of 1 %. Even MA Senator Edward Kennedy put the kibosh on a ocean based wind farm! Nimby eh?

Just got the VW GA letter in the mail. The affected cars are both safe and legal to drive as noted by the EPA and it's September 18 press release. I have read the actual fix could ping-pong around until the end of 2016.

I just read that the 2016 application to sell 2.0 L diesels was withdrawn. The 3.0 L TDI in the 2016 Touareg will sell.

stever · October 2015

Did you get the $2,000 incentive letter too?

Interesting about the 2016 application being withdrawn. Just read another post that sounded like the '16 2.0l TDIs won't be sold period in the US. Curious to see if that's true or if VW will be able to tweak 'em and certify them before the 2017 model year arrives (I'm behind on the news today).

ruking1 · October 2015

stever said:
Did you get the $2,000 incentive letter too?

Interesting about the 2016 application being withdrawn. Just read another post that sounded like the '16 2.0l TDIs won't be sold period in the US. Curious to see if that's true or if VW will be able to tweak 'em and certify them before the 2017 model year arrives (I'm behind on the news today).

Yes.

It will be interesting to see how the 2016 VW Touareg TDI sells. I saw an article saying $4000 incentive.

ruking1 · October 2015

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3

Lucy(Toyota), you have sum xplaining to do!

Hilarious!

So where do we order the TRD machine gun mount?

stever · October 2015

Renewables have already passed hydro? That's encouraging.

I don't get this WSJ story.

"Volkswagen AG conceded it won’t be able sell diesel-powered vehicles in the U.S. for a prolonged period, withdrawing a request for regulators to certify new models in the wake of an emissions-cheating scandal."

This story doesn't talk about which diesels won't be certified and sold - are they really talking about all of them?

stever · October 2015

Hm, Fox indicates that the certification problem "only" applies to diesel Jettas, Golfs, Passats and Beetles. Dealers must be real unhappy over this news. But the LA Times quotes Horn as saying "We have withdrawn the application for certification of our model year 2016 vehicles."

"They’ve abandoned the entire 2016 model year diesels, and that's not good news for owners," Brauer said. "It suggests that the fix is probably not going to be easy. It suggests that the fix involves so much challenge that they’re not even going try to make the 2016s work." (Karl Brauer used to be here at Edmunds and landed at Kelley a few years back).

Ah, an update, the fog is lifting a bit -

"Update: The EPA issued a statement saying, "Today Volkswagen withdrew their certification application for 2016 vehicle models that use the 2.0L diesel engine including the AUDI: A3 VOLKSWAGEN: BEETLE, BEETLE CONVERTIBLE, GOLF, GOLF SPORTWAGEN, JETTA, PASSAT models."

texases · October 2015

Confusing - the new (2016) 2.0L ones have urea injection, but they still had the cheat code? I didn't know that. And they can't be quickly brought into conformance? This just keeps getting worse for VW.

stever · October 2015

From the Twitterverse, Horn has just testified that for about 430K of the 482K vehicles, a software fix won't work. New hardware will be needed too. Most VW TDIs will need costly retrofit with new catalytic converter and possible urea fluid injection.

Refunds aren't on the table. At this point anyway.

henryn · October 2015

stever said:
Hm, Fox indicates that the certification problem "only" applies to diesel Jettas, Golfs, Passats and Beetles. Dealers must be real unhappy over this news. But the LA Times quotes Horn as saying "We have withdrawn the application for certification of our model year 2016 vehicles."

"They’ve abandoned the entire 2016 model year diesels, and that's not good news for owners," Brauer said. "It suggests that the fix is probably not going to be easy. It suggests that the fix involves so much challenge that they’re not even going try to make the 2016s work." (Karl Brauer used to be here at Edmunds and landed at Kelley a few years back).

Ah, an update, the fog is lifting a bit -

"Update: The EPA issued a statement saying, "Today Volkswagen withdrew their certification application for 2016 vehicle models that use the 2.0L diesel engine including the AUDI: A3 VOLKSWAGEN: BEETLE, BEETLE CONVERTIBLE, GOLF, GOLF SPORTWAGEN, JETTA, PASSAT models."

Just guessing here, but I would imagine it went something like this:

The EPA does not have the capability (at this point in time) to test diesel engine emissions “on the road”, only in the lab. If they were to approve the 2016 VW diesels, that would mean they are “trusting” VW. And anyone who would trust VW right now, well …

So VW is thinking if they request certification, the EPA is 99.99% probability going to refuse. So why even ask, and suffer the further humiliation?

I really don’t think VW had any choice but to “withdraw their request for regulators to certify new models”.

ruking1 · October 2015

Everybody has "obamaized" the language! (Gotten with the program)

Appearances dictate one notion, VW is trying to limit the potental exposure to ANOTHER crisis type situation. It also makes sense to let the brouhaha die down. Between EPA,CARB and VW , the current US "fixes" aren't even approved yet. EPA/CARB, etc are in no position to be dictatorial. Indeed the dictatorial nature forcing seemingly impossible goals are really major reasons software is used in the emissions compliance process: gasser & to a way small % & vol- diesel. All the global political types haven't even weighed in yet.

Regardless, the 10.5 m world wide VW TDI's are slated to be fixed BEFORE US TDI's. (Less than .5 M.) Be that as it may, until actual US approval, best guess is end of 2016. Approval delays would rightly be attributed to politics @ EPA/CARB, etc., etc. Realistically, it could drift into 2017. I would also swag that approval of the 2017/2018 TDI's will be a condition of the 2009 to 2015 my fix/es. As a side bar, it would be interesting to get a "hysterical" 2016 TDI! Make mine the Golf !

As I recall, 2006 were the last diesels until 2009. So the gaps are not without precedence.

As chaotic as things may seem. For as many irons that seem to be in the fires, I still think the stated goal & end game is to create conditions to allow VW to be the (# 1) number one global auto manufacturer .

Update :

I just heard on CNBC in Michael Horn's (CEO,VW G A) testimony before Congress : fixes could actually take 1 to 2 years (sic, after approvals). This could put fixes up to & past 2018.

The place seemed asleep? Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Even when I swag , I can't make this stuff up!

xwesx · October 2015

stever said:
Renewables have already passed hydro? That's encouraging

Hydro *is* a renewable (but, I get what you meant).

Personally, I would NOT want to see wind or solar take any meaningful portion of the energy "market share," assuming consumption at the level reported in that release. I like landscapes with beauty and variety. The whole US would look like Arlington, OR, or southern MN if we were to proliferate those technologies sufficiently to supplant other fuel sources. Perhaps if we used a quarter of the electricity that we do today, going fully renewable would even be in the cards.

And, considering the amount of resources (non-renewable) that go into wind and solar, we would definitely need to keep mining ramped up, but I'm sure the environmentalists would overlook that.

ruking1 · October 2015

I'm glad a lot of other people think wind and solar are butt ugly ! Needless to say each and together are woefully inefficient.

gagrice · October 2015

stever said:

gagrice said:
If they are worried about their green image they should be riding a bike.
I guess it's cheaper to farm out some bikes and put your name on them than to follow the emission regs.

Volkswagen bikes

These are REAL Beach Cruiser bikes.

http://www.fattirebeachbikes.com/?gclid=CIzQgaO5s8gCFQiVfgodTesJcg

xwesx · October 2015

ruking1 said:
I'm glad a lot of other people think wind and solar are butt ugly !

Don't get me wrong, I think that it's good to have this technology out there. I just don't want to see it everywhere! Here's likely the best current example of renewables out there:

http://www.adn.com/article/20150926/kodiak-builds-renewably-powered-island-lessons-rural-alaska

And, I guess that's great if you have a clear-cut island on which to construct the towers.

stever · October 2015

Y'all are assuming that solar won't get more efficient and smaller. The 21 panels that my house would require today could be 15 in a year or three. Our off-grid friends manage with 6 panels but they don't need AC.

xwesx · October 2015

stever said:
Y'all are assuming that solar won't get more efficient and smaller. The 21 panels that my house would require today could be 15 in a year or three.

I'm betting on that, and waiting in the meantime. Solyndra was a brilliant idea that brought just what you said to reality. The problem was that people weren't willing to pay for it (yet).

I will also add that if we can get things like solar exclusively on the buildings we already trade for our environment, then we're accomplishing two things at once. The frustration I have with these things is when we mega-size them and build special infrastructure for them in places better suited to other things, such as forests, fields, or even just "nature." It really defeats the purpose of "renewable" when we dump so many resources into the infrastructure. Given the limited lifespan of the components, I am not convinced that the (environmental) payback is there.

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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