Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

ab348 · February 2016

houdini1 said:

Driver, one other thing I am curious about. In spite of the U.S. rather high income tax, many politicians claim that almost 50% of the people on our tax roles pay no income tax. Is this true in Canada also? With this many people paying no income tax, and probably even receiving money from the government (other taxpayers) maybe this is one of the reasons why we have such a large national debt.

A couple of things I found:

Wade through this Wiki entry to the table near the bottom and there is an interesting comparison of average tax levels in many countries. It shows single folks like me pay pretty close to the same in the uS and Canada, but US families do much better than Canadian ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_taxes_in_Canada

The other thing I always wondered about was mortgage interest deductability in the US. It used to be a big deal when rates were higher, probably less of an issue now.

This article talks about people who pay no taxes, apparently more common in the US than Canada, but still substantial:

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/04/30/onethird-of-canadian-adults-pay-no-income-taxes

roadburner · February 2016

snakeweasel said:
Just received some bad news, my cousin just passed away. She was just 53 and it makes me think about things.

Sorry to hear that, a few of my HS classmates have also passed recently. It definitely makes you confront your own mortality...

Mr_Shiftright · February 2016

In some parts of Africa, life expectancy is about 45 years old.

houdini1 · February 2016

ab348 said:

houdini1 said:

Driver, one other thing I am curious about. In spite of the U.S. rather high income tax, many politicians claim that almost 50% of the people on our tax roles pay no income tax. Is this true in Canada also? With this many people paying no income tax, and probably even receiving money from the government (other taxpayers) maybe this is one of the reasons why we have such a large national debt.

A couple of things I found:

Wade through this Wiki entry to the table near the bottom and there is an interesting comparison of average tax levels in many countries. It shows single folks like me pay pretty close to the same in the uS and Canada, but US families do much better than Canadian ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_taxes_in_Canada

The other thing I always wondered about was mortgage interest deductability in the US. It used to be a big deal when rates were higher, probably less of an issue now.

This article talks about people who pay no taxes, apparently more common in the US than Canada, but still substantial:

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/04/30/onethird-of-canadian-adults-pay-no-income-taxes

Thanks for that info ab. Interesting.

houdini1 · February 2016

roadburner said:

snakeweasel said:
Just received some bad news, my cousin just passed away. She was just 53 and it makes me think about things.
Sorry to hear that, a few of my HS classmates have also passed recently. It definitely makes you confront your own mortality...

Condolences Snake.

nyccarguy · February 2016

@snakeweasel - my condolences. I'm sorry for your loss.

snakeweasel · February 2016

abacomike said:

snakeweasel said:

Just received some bad news, my cousin just passed away. She was just 53 and it makes me think about things.

That IS awfully young. My condolences, snake. It sure does make one think about life! When I had my hear attack a few months ago, it reminds you of mortality and how fragile it really is.

Thanks Mike, and take care of yourself.

snakeweasel · February 2016

roadburner said:

snakeweasel said:
Just received some bad news, my cousin just passed away. She was just 53 and it makes me think about things.
Sorry to hear that, a few of my HS classmates have also passed recently. It definitely makes you confront your own mortality...

Thank you, I have had three cousins pass away and all were younger than me at the time.

snakeweasel · February 2016

houdini1 said:

roadburner said:

snakeweasel said:
Just received some bad news, my cousin just passed away. She was just 53 and it makes me think about things.
Sorry to hear that, a few of my HS classmates have also passed recently. It definitely makes you confront your own mortality...
Condolences Snake.

Thank you Houdini.

berri · February 2016

snakeweasel said:

roadburner said:

snakeweasel said:
Just received some bad news, my cousin just passed away. She was just 53 and it makes me think about things.
Sorry to hear that, a few of my HS classmates have also passed recently. It definitely makes you confront your own mortality...
Thank you, I have had three cousins pass away and all were younger than me at the time.

You just never know in life. However, genetics is a complicated thing and all of this doesn't necessarily mean your life will be cut short. Hang in there Snake.

ab348 · February 2016

berri said:

You just never know in life. However, genetics is a complicated thing and all of this doesn't necessarily mean your life will be cut short. Hang in there Snake.

My sympathies, Snake.

As I get older I find myself intrigued by these DNA testing services I'm seeing advertised on TV now. But I don't know what they would tell me, or if I'd want to know it either.

Michaell · February 2016

Snake - my condolences on your loss

graphicguy · February 2016

As interest rates rise, money flows back into savings vehicles that the banks offer and away from the speculative markets (like oil)...much more stable investments.

More taxes aren't the answer. How many of your tax dollars will actually make it to infrastructure if they do raise them?

Sorry! Against any new taxes. Use whatever tolls you need for rebuilding your roads. But, never give politicians money. That never goes well.

snakeweasel · February 2016

berri said:

snakeweasel said:

roadburner said:

snakeweasel said:
Just received some bad news, my cousin just passed away. She was just 53 and it makes me think about things.
Sorry to hear that, a few of my HS classmates have also passed recently. It definitely makes you confront your own mortality...
Thank you, I have had three cousins pass away and all were younger than me at the time.
You just never know in life. However, genetics is a complicated thing and all of this doesn't necessarily mean your life will be cut short. Hang in there Snake.

Well it wasn't genetics with any of them. My family tends to live long.

snakeweasel · February 2016

ab348 said:

berri said:

You just never know in life. However, genetics is a complicated thing and all of this doesn't necessarily mean your life will be cut short. Hang in there Snake.
My sympathies, Snake.

As I get older I find myself intrigued by these DNA testing services I'm seeing advertised on TV now. But I don't know what they would tell me, or if I'd want to know it either.

Thank you.

snakeweasel · February 2016

Michaell said:
Snake - my condolences on your loss

Thank you.

abacomike · February 2016

graphicguy said:

As interest rates rise, money flows back into savings vehicles that the banks offer and away from the speculative markets (like oil)...much more stable investments. More taxes aren't the answer. How many of your tax dollars will actually make it to infrastructure if they do raise them? Sorry! Against any new taxes. Use whatever tolls you need for rebuilding your roads. But, never give politicians money. That never goes well.

I totally agree with NOT giving any discretionary funds to the government. But any sane person knows we cannot keep increasing the National Debt. There are many ways the debt can be reduced:

* Adhere to a strict balanced budget and apply surpluses to reduce the National Debt.

* Increase taxes sufficiently so that the National Debt can be reduced over a period of time with NONE of the revenues being allowed to become discretionary.

* Create an environment that is pro business which will enable "real" economic growth which will create more jobs and increase Federal revenues which in turn will create surpluses which cannot be made discretionary and can only be used to reduce the National Debt.

OR any combination of the above.

What has caused this out of control National Debt? Wars and armed conflicts over the past 50 years coupled with a Federal Government (Congress and the Executive Branch) that spends more than it receives in revenues. Think about it - 19 trillion dollars - an amount that can never be eliminated for generations to come unless something changes!!!

stickguy · February 2016

sorry to hear snake. I will agree that 53 is way too young. especially because I happen to be 53 at the moment.

just heard that my best friend from HS (also 53, no surprise) just had a 2nd stroke last night. He had a major one about 2 years ago, and has been in a rehab place most of the time since then. Not a good situation.

abacomike · February 2016

stickguy said:

sorry to hear snake. I will agree that 53 is way too young. especially because I happen to be 53 at the moment. just heard that my best friend from HS (also 53, no surprise) just had a 2nd stroke last night. He had a major one about 2 years ago, and has been in a rehab place most of the time since then. Not a good situation.

I just updated my living will to make sure my family does not sustain my life by artificial means. I don't want to live as a vegetable. I don't want doctors, hospitals and nursing homes getting my assets. I want my heirs to benefit from whatever I have.

driver100 · February 2016

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:
="abacomike"
And when interest rates hit 3, 4 or 5% or more, what happens then? Interest on the debt will triple or quadruple or quintuple!

There has to be bi-partisan support for "reducing" the national debt because in the very near future, interest rates will force the diversion of money from social and military programs to paying interest on the debt.

But if we can raise billions of dollars on a $10 per barrel tax on imported/exported oil and those billions go directly to reduce the national debt instead of spending it on new programs, in 5-10 years, we will have made a dent on our national debt.
Mike, I should have read your post first...my concern is when interest rates rise....it will be like buying a new car when you are so far under water you will sink.

I agree a bit of pain like a $10 a barrel charge to pay down the debt would be wonderful, we can afford since gas is so low....and what a fairly easy way to get our finances under some kind of control.

With the current debt $10 a barrel tax going to retire the debt would take 475 years to retire the debt presuming no defect spending and no interest on the debt.

In short $10 a barrel tax to pay down the debt is like throwing snowballs at a tank.

OK...I have a new plan. The whole world does much better when oil is probably at least at $60 a barrel. So make that tax $30 a barrel, pay the debt down in 1/3rd the time......160 years, and not only will it get paid off.....it might give the economy a boost.

btw.....$10 a barrel and if it takes 475 years it is hopeless trying to pay off the debt......if it takes 475 years at $10 a barrel we'll never collect! I think the debt should also be paid down (in Canada as well, we are worse) with a 10 cent per charge per cup on coffee, and $1 on every meal over $10.....we would all suffer a bit, but not a huge amount....and think of it....debt free!

driver100 · February 2016

snakeweasel said:
Just received some bad news, my cousin just passed away. She was just 53 and it makes me think about things.

53 is much too young! Live your life, buy the car you want (within reason), enjoy every moment, think positive, appreciate all the good things. Passing away so young is tragic, there are no words that could make sense, my deepest condolences.

driver100 · February 2016

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

houdini1 said:

ab348 said:
No, cost of most things here is higher. In fact it became an issue a couple of years ago when governments were starting to notice that identical products were 30% to 50% more here. And now with the C$ worth only 70% of the US$ it has only become worse. A head of cauliflower from California is now $6 here.
In the U.S., most families would have to have a husband and wife both working, with good jobs, to make $140,000. a year. Median income in the U.S. is about $50,000. I think the median income in Canada is about $75,000.
You may be right but I don't know. Got this from the internet:
It shows that the median family income in Canada is $76,000 — generally higher in the west than the east — while the median individual income is just $27,600. That means just as many individuals earn less than $27,600 as earn more. The richest 10 per cent of individuals are making more than $80,400

How can the median family income be $76k and individual be $27600....wouldn't that add up to $55k with 2 people working, unless they count kids income as well, or do married people tend to make more?????????

Cost of cars is 20% more in Canada and set to rise as there is now a 30 - 40% difference in currency, house prices are at least double for some unknown reason. Compared to Florida we need brick construction for the most part and basements. We have summer clothing but need an equal amount of more expensive winter clothing. Plus costs of doing business in a huge area with sparse population.

But what is better. Ride to work on a bike like they do in Denmark? No worries, government will pay for your healthcare, education, pension...........but, tax rate is 75%!

The numbers do look a bit screwy. I got my numbers from the internet too. Maybe in Canada there is a lot of people making very little and a lot of people making a lot. Kind of like the U.S

I was trying to find the average income in the U.S. and Canada to compare, but I could not find an average salary for Canada. They showed an average income for various occupations and average income in each province, but I could not find an overall average. Average income per worker in the U.S. was $44,000.

Driver, one other thing I am curious about. In spite of the U.S. rather high income tax, many politicians claim that almost 50% of the people on our tax roles pay no income tax. Is this true in Canada also? With this many people paying no income tax, and probably even receiving money from the government (other taxpayers) maybe this is one of the reasons why we have such a large national debt.

Let me try to answer this first houdini........at least I will take a stab at it. The short answer is about 1/3 of Canadians do NOT pay taxes.
They do estimate that in the US about 45% of the people don't pay taxes, but of that 45% the rich can fall into the non-payer group if they get their income from tax-exempt bonds or overseas sources for which they get foreign tax credits, according to Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. This can't happen in Canada........I am thinking that makes it very close with margin of error.

driver100 · February 2016

This may be of interest (might be suspect by some since it comes from CNBC...but, it is something to think about)

The top-earning 1 percent of Americans will pay nearly half of the federal income taxes for 2014, the largest share in at least three years, according to a study.

According to a projection from the non-partisan Tax Policy Center, the top 1 percent of Americans will pay 45.7 percent of the individual income taxes in 2014—up from 43 percent in 2013 and 40 percent in 2012 (the oldest period available). (Tweet this)

The bottom 80 percent of Americans are expected to pay 15 percent of all federal income taxes in 2014, according to the study. The bottom 60 percent are expected to pay less than 2 percent of federal income taxes

I have a feeling we are headed for trouble as more people go on the government payroll system. Maybe we should just forget about the debt and party until it's over.

Just as an aside....I watched the last part of the made for TV movie about Bernie Madoff and it was fascinating. He didn't read books, lies constantly, doesn't show remorse, not much personality, he didn't read books or newspapers, has no feeling for the people he cheated, AND HE DIDN'T BUY OR SELL ONE SHARE, he went through $50 billion totally thru his Ponzi Scheme.

driver100 · February 2016

houdini1 said
Average income per worker in the U.S. was $44,000

Average income in Canada is about the same $49000.

Keep in mind, with our lower $ these days that $49k is more like $30k in US $$$$s.
Now I really feel ripped off! :@

driver100 · February 2016

Good info about tax rates ab.
That mortgage deduct-ability is a nice extra in the US....however, it also leads to people remortgaging their homes all the time and increasing their debt...also could be a factor in the housing crash. 20% of Floridians owe more than their house is worth. Maybe it was a good idea at one time...not so sure it is a good thing today....and more lost revenue for the government.

driver100 · February 2016

"abacomike"
What has caused this out of control National Debt? Wars and armed conflicts over the past 50 years coupled with a Federal Government (Congress and the Executive Branch) that spends more than it receives in revenues. Think about it - 19 trillion dollars - an amount that can never be eliminated for generations to come unless something changes!!!

Maybe we need a new definition of government that includes the concept that governments by their nature like to spend, have no controls in place, and will forever be in debt - and maybe we just have to accept it.

The world will end before it gets paid off anyway

.

iluvmysephia1 · February 2016

That IS awfully young. My condolences, snake. It sure does make one think about life! When I had my hear attack a few months ago, it reminds you of mortality and how fragile it really is.

abacomike - I haven't missed any posts on here for months so hopefully I haven't missed any of your health updates. But it sure seems then that you're doing better! Keep it up, I don't know if any of your docs are advising you to exercise, or just walk a bit every day, if you feel up to it. Because that comes to mind as a good idea to strengthen your cardiovascular system a bit. Happy to hear things are calming down with you and I sincerely hope this is true.

snake - I am very sorry to hear of your loss. I lost my Mother in May of 2015 so both parents are gone now. This kind of news does sting - and it gets you questioning your own situation almost inevitably.

abacomike · February 2016

iluvmysephia1 said:

That IS awfully young. My condolences, snake. It sure does make one think about life! When I had my hear attack a few months ago, it reminds you of mortality and how fragile it really is. abacomike - I haven't missed any posts on here for months so hopefully I haven't missed any of your health updates. But it sure seems then that you're doing better! Keep it up, I don't know if any of your docs are advising you to exercise, or just walk a bit every day, if you feel up to it. Because that comes to mind as a good idea to strengthen your cardiovascular system a bit. Happy to hear things are calming down with you and I sincerely hope this is true. snake - I am very sorry to hear of your loss. I lost my Mother in May of 2015 so both parents are gone now. This kind of news does sting - and it gets you questioning your own situation almost inevitably.

Yes, I walk every morning for 30 minutes except for Sundays. I still do not have the stamina I had 6 months ago, and I usually have to take a breather halfway through my walk, but I haven't given up. I have an ultrasound scheduled early Monday morning to determine if that blood clot has dispersed - and then a large battery of blood tests right after that. I had a stress test and will know the results on Feb. 17th when I see the cardiologist next.

Otherwise, I am doing my best to stay out of the hospital. Thanks for asking.

houdini1 · February 2016

driver100 said:
"abacomike"
What has caused this out of control National Debt? Wars and armed conflicts over the past 50 years coupled with a Federal Government (Congress and the Executive Branch) that spends more than it receives in revenues. Think about it - 19 trillion dollars - an amount that can never be eliminated for generations to come unless something changes!!!

Maybe we need a new definition of government that includes the concept that governments by their nature like to spend, have no controls in place, and will forever be in debt - and maybe we just have to accept it.

The world will end before it gets paid off anyway

.

At the end of 2000 our nat'l debt was only 6 trillion. So in just 15 years it has grown by 13 trillion to 19 trillion. Mind boggling, and no end in sight. Something is very wrong.

driver100 · February 2016

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:
"abacomike"
What has caused this out of control National Debt? Wars and armed conflicts over the past 50 years coupled with a Federal Government (Congress and the Executive Branch) that spends more than it receives in revenues. Think about it - 19 trillion dollars - an amount that can never be eliminated for generations to come unless something changes!!!
Maybe we need a new definition of government that includes the concept that governments by their nature like to spend, have no controls in place, and will forever be in debt - and maybe we just have to accept it.

The world will end before it gets paid off anyway .

At the end of 2000 our nat'l debt was only 6 trillion. So in just 15 years it has grown by 13 trillion to 19 trillion. Mind boggling, and no end in sight. Something is very wrong.

Actually, I think it is on track. Prices double every 10 years with 7% inflation, so in 10 years the $6 trillion would become $12 trillion, plus 5 years would add half of the double amount or $6 trillion more.....so debt isn't really increasing...it is just on track....I should get a job in government explaining these things.

abacomike · February 2016

driver1000
At the end of 2000 our nat'l debt was only 6 trillion. So in just 15 years it has grown by 13 trillion to 19 trillion. Mind boggling, and no end in sight. Something is very wrong.
Actually, I think it is on track. Prices double every 10 years with 7% inflation, so in 10 years the $6 trillion would become $12 trillion, plus 5 years would add half of the double amount or $6 trillion more.....so debt isn't really increasing...it is just on track....I should get a job in government explaining these things.

But we don't have 7% inflation. In fact, inflation has been between .75 - 1.5% for almost a generation.

Driver, isn't it wonderful to be able to prove almost anything so long as you control the data and the statistics?

Michaell · February 2016

driver100 said:

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:
"abacomike"
What has caused this out of control National Debt? Wars and armed conflicts over the past 50 years coupled with a Federal Government (Congress and the Executive Branch) that spends more than it receives in revenues. Think about it - 19 trillion dollars - an amount that can never be eliminated for generations to come unless something changes!!!
Maybe we need a new definition of government that includes the concept that governments by their nature like to spend, have no controls in place, and will forever be in debt - and maybe we just have to accept it.

The world will end before it gets paid off anyway .

At the end of 2000 our nat'l debt was only 6 trillion. So in just 15 years it has grown by 13 trillion to 19 trillion. Mind boggling, and no end in sight. Something is very wrong.

Actually, I think it is on track. Prices double every 10 years with 7% inflation, so in 10 years the $6 trillion would become $12 trillion, plus 5 years would add half of the double amount or $6 trillion more.....so debt isn't really increasing...it is just on track....I should get a job in government explaining these things.

Except the inflation rate since 2000 is nowhere near 7%, so the debt has grown substantially.

Half of those years under a Republican administration, half under a Democratic administration. Equal opportunity blame.

abacomike · February 2016

It's all about armed conflicts and mortgage bankers!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2016

Exactly. As long as the interest is paid and the GDP increases, then the debt to GDP ratio remains the same.

People should be more concerned about HOW the money is spent--that's the ticket.

houdini1 · February 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
Exactly. As long as the interest is paid and the GDP increases, then the debt to GDP ratio remains the same.

It has been a long time since that happened.

stever · February 2016

Another POV on spending that $10 oil tax on infrastructure from the current champion state of the US boondogglers:

"The solutions are obvious. Don’t fund projects without independently verified financial and feasibility studies. Don’t start projects without all the money on hand to finish them. Don't invest public money in economic development projects without private investment. And don’t spend millions on engineering and environmental studies until all the players have skin in the game." (ADN)

So, first, you have to determine that you need a car and get your spouse to vote for the deal. Check Edmunds for the feasibility of driving that Miata - oh, you have two kids in the household? Opt for a minivan. Then save up and pay cash for it.

(Part two is sit back and watch the economy crash....)

iluvmysephia1 · February 2016

Dodge City (pop.30,000) is building an $11,000,000 waterpark near the Wright Park Zoo. Money for the waterpark was raised through the "Why Not Dodge?" tax. Business people in town are taxed one penny on the dollar and send it to the city.

Dodge's kids are gonna be splashin' in style.

stever · February 2016

I'd only vote for that if it has a whitewater component like the parks in Boise and Reno do.

iluvmysephia1 · February 2016

Yeah, this park was all ordered-up before we got here. Dunno if it even has whitewater in it. I can play basketball at the 'Y' now - the Mrs. and I joined in late December. $27.17 a month total for the both of us through payroll deduction at the hospital.

snakeweasel · February 2016

stickguy said:
sorry to hear snake. I will agree that 53 is way too young. especially because I happen to be 53 at the moment.

just heard that my best friend from HS (also 53, no surprise) just had a 2nd stroke last night. He had a major one about 2 years ago, and has been in a rehab place most of the time since then. Not a good situation.

Thanks Guy.

snakeweasel · February 2016

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:
Just received some bad news, my cousin just passed away. She was just 53 and it makes me think about things.
53 is much too young! Live your life, buy the car you want (within reason), enjoy every moment, think positive, appreciate all the good things. Passing away so young is tragic, there are no words that could make sense, my deepest condolences.

Thank you Driver.

driver100 · February 2016

Just an example of how government works and can be so inefficient:

In 1992 the government of Tampa decided they needed a highway (Suncoast Parkway) for all the people moving into the area...and the highway would lead to even more development. Cost of the highway...$507 million, to be paid for by tolls.

This was the changing projected revenue and actual revenue:

$150 million In 1992, that was the amount of income from tolls predicted by 2014 .

$121 million In February 1995, dropped its 2014 estimate by $29 million but still touted it as a future success.

$59 million In December 1995, cut prediction in half. What changed? New census figures came out. The Suncoast just barely passed a test for financial feasibility.

$38 million In 1998, dropping the numbers even further. But construction already had the green light. There was no turning back. The toll road opened for business in 2001.

$22 million How much the Suncoast Parkway actually made in 2014 — $16 million less than the lowest prediction

And, that is how government works.....with very little accountability. A business wouldn't last if it made a prediction like that.

stickguy · February 2016

well, government is the ultimate monopoly.

snakeweasel · February 2016

stickguy said:
well, government is the ultimate monopoly.

Well We vote for them. Now if voters actually voted looking at the choices like business people look at employees instead of voting on "promises" of the future maybe things will change.

But voters are voting for ho gives the bigger handout so we are doomed.

imidazol97 · February 2016

snakeweasel said:
But voters are voting for ho gives the bigger handout so we are doomed.

Back in the 1990s an economist said that the voting power had switched or would be switching soon from those who make money to those who take money from the government's various sources that the workers and capitalists had paid in. Does anyone remember who that was?

We are doomed because the incumbents in DC have their own interests at heart and not those of the people of the US. Wall Street big money still runs the country.

stickguy · February 2016

well, we only really get to vote for the pre-selected options, none of which are really working for us. But it is something.

abacomike · February 2016

imidazol97 said:

But voters are voting for ho gives the bigger handout so we are doomed.
Back in the 1990s an economist said that the voting power had switched or would be switching soon from those who make money to those who take money from the government's various sources that the workers and capitalists had paid in. Does anyone remember who that was?

I said that!

In fact, I say that all the time!

imidazol97 · February 2016

Was it Greenberg?

Mr_Shiftright · February 2016

abacomike said:

imidazol97 said:

snakeweasel said:
But voters are voting for ho gives the bigger handout so we are doomed.
Back in the 1990s an economist said that the voting power had switched or would be switching soon from those who make money to those who take money from the government's various sources that the workers and capitalists had paid in. Does anyone remember who that was?

I said that!

In fact, I say that all the time!

Well one look at America's political map would prove him decisively wrong.

berri · February 2016

Congress acting rationally, in a business manner for the taxpayer? Let's start with the big Pharma world. We are getting screwed while the lobbyists pad our representative's and senator's pockets. Hence, they've saddled us with one of the most expensive pharmacy costs in the world. How about the irony of red states and blue states. The red states push for balancing the budget and all, but collectively take in far more federal dollars than they pay through military bases, Corps of Engineers water projects and agricultural subsidies and tax breaks. Blue states tend to payout more to the feds than they get back, believe it or not. The reality is they don't know what they are doing in Washington from a business person's perspective. They just work based on how fat their pocket can get and what they think buys votes. They do like to put on big, dramatic hearings spectacles that accomplish nothing, but get them press coverage. If there was a Congressional picnic, if one side wanted hamburgers, the other would demand hot dogs. That's why they can't fix our tax code and businesses are doing foreign inversions to get out from under it. You are all talking logic and common sense unfortunately. But there isn't the leadership or sense of real concern toward the citizens in Washington to act that way. If you are mostly just about yourself, you won't change the world, right? Oh wait, take good care of the rich and the crumbs will trickle down to everyone else!

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