A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

guitarzan · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
You need an agent to get you more per hour. I mean, if you can fix cars that nobody else in your area can fix, you basically have the customer as a hostage.

Absolutely. Marketing is a significant problem for 100%'ers in a world of mediocres.

There may be some ethical line between serving humanity and being selfish. I am unsure what that line is. I have observed many excellent professionals trade services or undercharge through their careers, and have seen the worst of the worst overcharge people. None of that is right.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

If you do a great job better than most, you can take care of yourself and them at the same time. They get taken care of because you've saved them from a downward spiral of repairs that have proven useless previously, you make their car safer and/or more reliable, and you get taken care of because you can extract some profit from your business after all the bills are paid.

An automotive technician has to use his own horsepower to make money---when he stops, the money stops. It's not like some other kinds of more "passive" income, where you can make money by collecting rent or making investments.

roadburner · July 2016

isellhondas said:

She had not done this. He went on to tell her that if this happens, it basically TOTALS the car! They told her the parts need to fix the damage are $ 35,000 not counting labor!

Can this be true? she isn't one to make things up!

Either:
1. She misheard the SA
2. The SA is totally inept, or
3. This is one of the dealerships that throws out wildly inflated maintenance/repair numbers to scare people into either buying extended warranties or trading cars before any warranties expire(I know of a few dealers that put ridiculously high numbers on the service receipts for covered maintenance so the SA can say, "See, this is why ya' need them extended warranties and service agreements").

roadburner · July 2016

thecardoc3 said:

roadburner said:

Precisely- that's how my dealership is set up...
Show us how your dealer would respond to Mr. Navigator from the perspective that you didn't do anything wrong and are dealing with a scammer.

Beats me; it hasn't happened yet.

guitarzan · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
If you do a great job better than most, you can take care of yourself and them at the same time. They get taken care of because you've saved them from a downward spiral of repairs that have proven useless previously, you make their car safer and/or more reliable, and you get taken care of because you can extract some profit from your business after all the bills are paid.

An automotive technician has to use his own horsepower to make money---when he stops, the money stops. It's not like some other kinds of more "passive" income, where you can make money by collecting rent or making investments.

I do agree! My mechanic could raise his hourly rate $30 and that would be fine. Overall cost of service, using aftermarket parts, and never charging for something not done, would still be a better value than every dealership I have visited.

Few of us have rental properties. I suspect what you are talking about, "feast or famine" is the reality for many independent professionals, including programmers, engineers, lawyers, and architects. The real delineation is working for a Fortune type company and having a steady salary and benefits (and no control over anything) vs. being independent, having a great deal of control, but having to hustle for one's next meal. Over the past 30 years, I have seen awesome professionals in these categories go without paychecks for extended periods of time. Relatively speaking their costs may be similar to a mechanic's tools, such as $5,000 yearly state certifications and expensive yearly code updates.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

With all of the price matching tools available to the public such as http://repairpal.com/, and every essay ever written that tries to tell consumers how to find a great mechanic which almost never allow for the stratification in talents and tooling we don't get to raise pricing as easily as suggested above.

Go back and look at every story (advertisement?) ever written that included CarMD. (there are several here in Edmunds) Look at what the consumer has been told about diagnostics. Heck Steve has just about made it a crusade to promote google guesses over really doing diagnostics. The NBC story that Mr. Reed of Edmunds was involved in that got my attention a few years back criticized shops that charged for diagnostics on top of harping about the ones that really were rip-offs. Do you know what was the worst thing they did when that aired? They praised the ones that didn't charge anything. They portrayed him as a knowledgeable expert and he failed to correct that important detail. Was it ignorance of just what it has been taking for shops/techs to keep pace with the technology in the cars or was it deliberate? Only he can answer that for sure but the snippets that I have shared here are routed on how I (and other top techs around the country) have been approaching diagnostics for more than twenty years.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

It's a case by case situation I think. Here in CA you can get charged $110 for just plugging the scan tool in and giving the customer a somewhat brief analysis of what "might" be the problem----fair enough, but if said customer then let's you fix the car, there's no harm in letting off on the diagnostic charge.

It comes down to this one basic rule of business. Most businesses, especially service businesses, survive on REPEAT customers. Every bit of goodwill you invest in will come back to you, one way or the other.

That's not at all the same as selling yourself cheaply.

kyfdx · July 2016

On another note, the independent that I paid to diagnose my CEL did a great job. The price was $104+tax, and they found what they think caused the intermittent fault (loose intake pipe, leaking in un-metered air), and was able to fix it within the allotted diagnosis time, so no extra charge.

Of course, being intermittent, we won't be sure if that was the actual cause until I drive it for awhile.

My first time using them (VW/Audi specialist). Very good communication, very clean shop/waiting area, and very friendly/personable. (And, I'm not just saying that, because it turned out to be a minor repair).

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

I sometimes get to sit in on a problem-solving session at my friend's Porsche-Audi shop and it's really interesting to see them attack a problem. Between the 25 years experience of the two brothers, and the excellent tech training of one of their German-born employees, and a hands-on office manager who knows all the info and parts sources.....well, things get DONE!

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
It's a case by case situation I think. Here in CA you can get charged $110 for just plugging the scan tool in and giving the customer a somewhat brief analysis of what "might" be the problem----fair enough, but if said customer then let's you fix the car, there's no harm in letting off on the diagnostic charge.

I got one of my favorite e-mails this morning. My GDS subscription is expiring in one week which means another pay-out just like the tool I renewed last week. Do you think they will give it to me for free if I don't charge the customers that let me fix the cars?

Mr_Shiftright said:

It comes down to this one basic rule of business. Most businesses, especially service businesses, survive on REPEAT customers. Every bit of goodwill you invest in will come back to you, one way or the other.

Only if we are there to come back to......Even then experience has shown it doesn't work as cleanly as one might hope for. They might come back, but there can be years in-between the visits and it's only for the times when cheaper alternatives have already failed. Which works to push our CODB (cost of doing business) higher and doesn't guarantee a return on it.

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's not at all the same as selling yourself cheaply.

But that is the end result or else close up.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Every bit of goodwill you invest in will come back to you, one way or the other.

If the one way or another wasn't there that would be a false statement. The reality has been that some of the goodwill given does pay dividends, the majority of it disappears into a vacuum and rest of it goes to PT Barnum.

guitarzan · July 2016

The state of the economy comes to mind as something you mechanics cannot control. For my aforementioned service professionals, a dead economy can mean a dramatic slowdown in business. Today I would think that used car repairs are UP UP UP long term (?), given the economy, that new car sales have not made up for the slump, and because used cars are going for outrageous prices. This notwithstanding that the total volume of business may only be partially connected to rates that you can charge.

stever · July 2016

thecardoc3 said:
Heck Steve has just about made it a crusade to promote google guesses over really doing diagnostics.

Not me, I use DuckDuckGo and try to avoid Google as much as I can. That and using in-private browsing helps keep me from getting Repair Pal and Mitchell 1 ads following me around the net.

But yeah, info is good and I research everything. I may not find the answer but I can converse with my mechanic or doc or realtor or whoever.

isellhondas · July 2016

roadburner said:

isellhondas said:

She had not done this. He went on to tell her that if this happens, it basically TOTALS the car! They told her the parts need to fix the damage are $ 35,000 not counting labor!

Can this be true? she isn't one to make things up!
Either:
1. She misheard the SA
2. The SA is totally inept, or
3. This is one of the dealerships that throws out wildly inflated maintenance/repair numbers to scare people into either buying extended warranties or trading cars before any warranties expire(I know of a few dealers that put ridiculously high numbers on the service receipts for covered maintenance so the SA can say, "See, this is why ya' need them extended warranties and service agreements").

I totally agree with you and Shifty. They made very sure that she knew that had she damaged it it wouldn't be covered by the warranty.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

I had a Chrysler Pacifica that was dropped off for an ABS system issue. The ABS system uses a 12v bias to power up the wheel speed sensors and testing showed that it wasn't present at the connector for the right front sensor. Accessing the module connector showed that the bias voltage was present and temporarily bypassing the vehicle harness restored the sensor operation. So, it didn't need a sensor and it didn't need a module but the location of the failure in the harness couldn't be identified without removing the harness from the vehicle (that would be a major expense). There are times that doing a bypass makes more sense than a harness repair/replacement and this was one of them. So a trip to one of the local parts stores was necessary to get some supplies to build a section of the harness

This is where this got interesting, I found out that they no longer do code pulls for customers. This happened quietly, I hadn't heard anything about them abandoning the practice. They have a list of shops that they recommend the customers visit and wanted to know if I wanted to be on the list. The next question was, would I do it for free?

With today's highly networked cars every diagnostic event needs to start by pulling information from every module on the car, not just the one with the warning light on in the dash. That's why the O.E. scan tools are the best choice for any given vehicle since they have that strategy engineered into them. That little fact also means that to even try and give a customer an accurate, complete baseline description the shop might have to pay for a short term subscription if they don't pay for the full year subscription. Short term subscriptions range anywhere from $20 to $50 for three days usage. Just pulling the OBDII codes for a check engine light isn't enough in a large percentage of the cases and it has been very misleading to the consumers for anyone to try and suggest that it is. The Pacifica mentioned above had several very important codes in some other modules that could have led to a customer being disappointed by only addressing the ABS issue. That didn't mean these other issues had to be repaired right away, but they needed to be recorded as part of the service visit. Meanwhile a Chevrolet Silverado with an air bag light on and no communication with the air bag module as well as Toyota Prius that was towed in for a no-start each produced the same type of concerns. So no, I won't be doing code pulls for free. But I am on the list.

stever · July 2016

My understanding is that the parts stores in California aren't allowed to pull codes (by BAR I think).

I don't know Doc - I think a free or cheap diagnosis service would be a great way to get business. May be a plan for a new shop owner to grow the business, but I understand the flipside where you only do work for a living wage.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

stever said:
I don't know Doc - I think a free or cheap diagnosis service would be a great way to get business.

It's not, and never has been.

stever said:
May be a plan for a new shop owner to grow the business,

That's a plan for a new shop owner that leads to failure in his/her new business.

stever said:

but I understand the flipside where you only do work for a living wage.

And that's why a new start-up fails when they try to be too cheap. Every penny given away as "goodwill" comes from the one and only place that it can, and its from the owners pocket. Here they are faced with a really big set of fixed expenses that must be covered before they realize enough money to even buy a loaf of bread, and then there are all the non-fixed costs that still have to be addressed. That new business (and a lot of older ones) often find themselves working twelve to sixteen hour days only to not turn an actual profit at the end of the week, and then someone walks in and wants something for nothing.

It's really sad watching this and knowing its something that there isn't any way to solve it other than to let the trade fail until it gets small enough that it can start all over again. New start-ups with flawed business plans are only going to make the bottom come faster.

stever · July 2016

Yeah, but lots of auto parts stores saw a nice bump in business once they started reading codes free and giving away their "diagnosis". Well, most of them did free diagnosis anyway, but having something "official" showing up on the OBD gizmo added a lot of weight to those who wanted to throw parts at something.

My guess is that AutoZone took away a lot of biz from the indy shops.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Auto Zone and others doing code pulls to sell parts sold a lot of unnecessary parts and in a lot of cases the low quality parts they often pushed added problems to the car instead of making it better. That still goes on in some places. Last week I got to diagnose a 2004 Dodge pick-up that had new downstream O2 sensors installed in it that was still setting a P0141 and P0161. The customer had bought a computer for the truck and wanted it installed since the sensors didn't fix it. I gave him a choice of diagnosing it first and he agreed. The sensors he was sold were the wrong ones for the truck, his PCM was fine.

Auto Zone did a lot of things that hurt independent shops when they came into a market. For one, they sold parts over the counter for less than they sold them to shops and started doing the curbside battery installs. They also were selling very poor quality starters and alternators with lifetime guarantees and that created a lot of friction between shops and consumers at every level of the service. It was an interesting visit the last time one of their reps visited my shop asking for my business. I told him he had no chance and should save himself some time and head on down the road unless he really wanted to know why. He decided he wanted to know why, and when I was done explaining each of the details he thanked me and agreed that if the roles were reversed he would feel the same as I do.

stever · July 2016

Guess that's why AutoZone is just an also ran. Only has 5,000 stores after opening their first one in '79 and they only had 10 billion in revenue as of last August. Guess no one trusts them or their private label batteries and other parts.

Indy shops and dealers, on the other hand, have a perfect track record and never screw up a job.

thecardoc3 · August 2016

As my Grand-ma would say, "I'll let you in on a little secret". My warranty return rate was under .25% which means I could go for years without a single come back, and I do the most difficult work there is. Another parts store who lobbied for my business had to take pause when I told them how they pay warranty repairs isn't important to me as much as the fact that they have to pay them is.

Mistakes happen, defective parts happen. Reducing those problems to that level takes attention to detail and a lot of hard work.

But anyway, I gave you something to really comment on, how a simple O2 sensor heater circuit was tested and all you could do was disparage. Those sensors were from AutoZone. The customer replaced them with O.E. sensors and the truck was fixed.

thecardoc3 · August 2016

As my Grand-ma would say, "I'll let you in on a little secret". My warranty return rate was under .25% which means I could go for years without a single come back, and I do the most difficult work there is. Another parts store who lobbied for my business had to take pause when I told them how they pay warranty repairs isn't important to me as much as the fact that they have to pay them is.

Mistakes happen, defective parts happen. Reducing those problems to that level takes attention to detail and a lot of hard work.

But anyway, I gave you something to really comment on, how a simple O2 sensor heater circuit was tested and all you could do was disparage. Those sensors were from AutoZone. The customer replaced them with O.E. sensors and the truck was fixed.

benjaminh · August 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
....RE: Fixing 2016 cars in the future: As bad as it looks now, Doc, it's going to be 10X worse soon enough. Not only are engines reaching, dare we say, MAXIMUM levels of practical complexity, but overlaying that is all this info-tainment junk and "driver assist" technology, which is both a benefit and a curse.

Who is going to fix 10 year old obsolete collision avoidance radar? I'll tell you who---- a few very VERY expensive specialists who have a shop a long way from your house.

On top of those challenges, we are facing the somewhat ludicrous scenario of an engine or transmission failure totaling a perfectly otherwise good, clean, 5 or 6 year old used car that was bought for $30K or $40K.

I fear the trip to the junkyard is getting shorter and shorter.

This is one reason I've previously bought Honda Accords and gotten the extended HondaCare 8 year 100k warranty for c. $1000—and then sold my cars more or less when the extended warranty expires. I was trying to buy one of the most reliable cars, and then adding insurance on top of that.

But for the new 2016 Accord I just got I skipped the extended warranty, because I never used it on my 2002 Accord or 2008 Accord, both kept for c. 8 years and 80k or so. It's too soon to tell if we'll use it on my wife's 2013 Accord, but even though it's more or less cheap insurance I skipped it to save money.

But now you've got me a little worried because in addition to everything on my 2008 the 2016 has direct injection, side and back-up cameras, AndroidAuto, etc. I did skip the warning light and beep partially-drive-your-car-in-certain-situations HondaSensing, in part because I wanted to drive my own darn car myself without interference, but also so that there would be less to break.

Anyway, I think I have a year to potentially get the HondaCare for $1,100 or so, and maybe I should? On the other hand, my past Hondas have been so reliable that it seems a waste....

On your example of a 5-year old used car that costs $30-40k, what basic type of car would that be? A BMW 7 series or MB S-class?

I remember vaguely thinking c. 25 years ago that there wouldn't be many people who would be able to work on an Infiniti Q45, or whatever they were called, when they were 10 years old. But I guess that's why as a percentage of sales more high-end cars are in the junkyard at age 10-15 than Toyotas, Nissans, Hondas, etc.

qbrozen · August 2016

Just make sure it covers all those extras. Many extended warranties exclude things like electronics

kyfdx · August 2016

First time I bought an extended warranty was on my 2002 CR-V. $1000 for 7 year, 100K mile protection. Kept the CR-V for 6.5 years and 106K miles. Never made a single claim.

stever · August 2016

thecardoc3 said:
But anyway, I gave you something to really comment on, how a simple O2 sensor heater circuit was tested and all you could do was disparage. Those sensors were from AutoZone. The customer replaced them with O.E. sensors and the truck was fixed.

So, the customer should have used the dealer for parts (or O'Reilly's or Rock Auto) and simply swapping the parts out fixed the problem? Got it.

thecardoc3 · August 2016

stever said:
So, the customer should have used the dealer for parts (or O'Reilly's or Rock Auto) and simply swapping the parts out fixed the problem? Got it.

O'Reilly's and Rock Auto also sell the wrong sensors for that truck, the dealer would have given them the right ones. So just changing them out is a trap because what was in there when I got the truck were in fact the second set from the zone, on top of the fact that they had already chosen to now just swap out the PCM. They never actually tested anything and you have more than once been critical of a mechanic that would just change a part trying to fix something, but in this moment you are coming across as praising just tossing a given part. Meanwhile without really testing using the right routine and tools, you didn't know for certain what part is actually bad until after someone else did. For pressing like that, it would have served someone right for them to keep buying and tossing sensors, and the PCM(s) at this in vain, and even if they did luck into making the problem go away have no idea what fixed it or why.

The only right answer every time is to test and prove what is going on, period. It's misleading to the consumer and especially to young technicians to waffle back and forth to what ever perspective wasn't the one taken. Where consumers have been misled time and time again by people pretending to know starts with the idea that pulling codes equals diagnostics, it does not. Pulling codes is only one step of just the beginning of the routine. If everyone tested exactly as I did, there would be no mistakes. The best part is it really doesn't take all that long to do once you have made the investment to learn how to do it. But that's really the rub isn't it? Other than techs like myself almost no-one else has made anywhere near that kind of investment and admitting that would have them expose themselves as being fakes.

thecardoc3 · August 2016

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/42265/toyota/highlander-hybrid/hybrid-abs-problem#latest

She thinks having to pay for diagnostics is lame, is afraid to drive the car, etc. How about you tell her what part to throw at it without someone really testing it correctly. Or else, why don't you explain to her why it does cost to have the problem investigated by a skilled technician following the right routine.

stever · August 2016

From a consumer's point of view, that's the rub. I bet you'd have to look long and hard to find any car owner who has never had a poor experience at a dealer's shop, and many of those people will tell you that the tech either misdiagnosed the problem, installed the wrong part, installed a part that broke shortly after or threw parts at the problem and never did fix it.

And yet we have to pay for all that bumbling around and hope we get lucky. (Here's this morning's example - took three trips and two shops to fix an AC issue).

And you wonder why people try to figure out the problem on the net themselves?

roadburner · August 2016

stever said:
From a consumer's point of view, that's the rub. I bet you'd have to look long and hard to find any car owner who has never had a poor experience at a dealer's shop, and many of those people will tell you that the tech either misdiagnosed the problem, installed the wrong part, installed a part that broke shortly after or threw parts at the problem and never did fix it.

And yet we have to pay for all that bumbling around and hope we get lucky. (Here's this morning's example - took three trips and two shops to fix an AC issue).

And you wonder why people try to figure out the problem on the net themselves?

Back in 2007 I was considering a new GTI. I knew that the DSG transmission required a fluid change at 40,000 miles so I called the three local VW dealers' service departments to find out how much they would charge to perform the service. One dealer put me on hold and came back with: "The newer transmissions are sealed and don't need service. Everything is done through the computer." At the second dealer the SA who picked up asked me what a DSG was. I was transferred to a second person who stated that there was "no recommended service" for the DSG. Only the third dealer actually got it right.

thecardoc3 · August 2016

stever said:
From a consumer's point of view, that's the rub. I bet you'd have to look long and hard to find any car owner who has never had a poor experience at a dealer's shop, and many of those people will tell you that the tech either misdiagnosed the problem, installed the wrong part, installed a part that broke shortly after or threw parts at the problem and never did fix it.

And yet we have to pay for all that bumbling around and hope we get lucky. (Here's this morning's example - took three trips and two shops to fix an AC issue).

And you wonder why people try to figure out the problem on the net themselves?

No, that isn't what I wonder about. What I find curious is when handed the real alternative to all of that, you go out of your way to preserve the chaos.

thecardoc3 · August 2016

I just checked that link, three visits and two shops? Lets try "cause and effect". There has been no shortage of pressure to make testing the AC correctly the first time improper in the consumers eyes. So most shops rely on charging the system and using a dye to reveal the leak as the testing routine. It appears that routine succeeded in identifying the failure, but of course it does take time for that to happen. So then we get to the part about it taking two shops. If they want it for free it has to be done at the dealer, we don't get to do warranty work, not that it applies here. FWIW I would have no problem doing that diagnostic and repair in one visit, and I know others that could do the same. Seems the only real issue is the shortage of qualified shops and techs, and the consumer not knowing how to find the right shop.

stever · August 2016

Here's one - Dirty oil after dealer change.

Are dipsticks usually dirty (i.e., the dealer put oil in the truck but didn't check the level with the dipstick after wiping it off)? When I change my oil, it seems to get dirty real fast, unlike the honey you have in your Explorer, @thecardoc3. Maybe the tech really drove it around the block to check for leaks.

Or maybe you get what you pay for?

thecardoc3 · August 2016

Depending on what vehicle and engine this is and how bad the oil that was in it had gotten, its entirely plausible that the new oil could look absolutely terrible with-in a matter of seconds after changing. Besides, how many times have you quoted that Blackstone labs person who said you can't tell if oil needs changed by it's color, or odor or.....

The reason the oil in my Escape barely gets dark at all is because it has never once been allowed to fail, plus I change the oil at somewhere between six to eight week intervals when the reminder says that it has less than 10% life left.

stever · August 2016

I think that was some other link about the color and odor. Blackstone is the one that says "oil is oil".

thecardoc3 · August 2016

Well, it was just a matter of time.

http://www.ratchetandwrench.com/RatchetWrench/August-2016/Arrests-Made-for-Suspension-of-Vehicle-Hacking/?utm_source=KnowledgeMarketing&utm_medium=RW - Newsletter Emails&utm_term=RW - RW Insider&utm_content=RW_RWInsider_0805&utm_campaign=NADA Calls for Mandated Vehicle Inspections&eid=276170960&bid=1489284

thecardoc3 · August 2016

I wonder how much open source played a role into making it easier to hack those cars.

stever · August 2016

Kind of like those open source screwdrivers that let people turn ignition switches on?

(WSJ link)

Should have limited screwdriver sales to licensed techs years ago and fixed that problem.

roadburner · August 2016

stever said:
Kind of like those open source screwdrivers that let people turn ignition switches on? (WSJ link)

Should have limited screwdriver sales to licensed techs years ago and fixed that problem.

Owners Manuals too!

thecardoc3 · August 2016

stever said:
Should have limited screwdriver sales to licensed techs years ago and fixed that problem.

It appears you didn't read the story that I linked to, nor the one you used to try and downplay the conversation.

From your July 2012 link "I was able to start a 1989 Suburban after dismantling the steering column with the screwdriver. Mr. Derocher couldn't get his later model SUV to start, but, "you're in neutral, and you can steer," he said."

The 2007 SUV wasn't started, but it was compromised since the guy broke the steering and shifter interlocks, but even that isn't what they are talking about with the Ratchet and Wrench article from earlier this week. They are talking about thieves exploiting open source uploading software which allows them to bypass the security system and then actually starting the car and driving it away without any key at all. They had stolen some 100 cars before they got caught. In the end it was just a matter of time, the pressure to have open source outweighed common sense and now that Pandora's box is open good luck closing it.

stever · August 2016

There's a bunch of ways to start cars with screwdrivers - seems like it's Chryslers or Jeeps that you'd stick the blade into the ignition (link). Shorting the starter solenoid with an insulated screwdriver is an old trick. (link)

It's all the same old exploiting a weakness, just using a different method with a laptop. As soon as this weakness is fixed the crooks will figure out another angle. It's not the end of the world and it's certainly not a good reason to kill open source.

Our forum software is open source.

thecardoc3 · August 2016

The forum software doesn't carry the users 70mph down the highway nor cost them tens of thousands of dollars.

stever · August 2016

Well, if someone steals your login information and you use the same password for your banking ....

thecardoc3 · August 2016

stever said:
Well, if someone steals your login information and you use the same password for your banking ....

And you want an apples to apples comparison, you would be liable.....

stever · August 2016

My banking passwords are unique to those sites, as everyone's should be. I use KeePass to keep track of ~~all~~ both of them. Yep, it's an open source proggie.

btw, got a real question for you (and anyone else). Who should I trust for an opinion on the condition of my minivan tires? The wear bars are visible but not close to being even with the tread. My usual mechanic or a place like Discount Tire? Or just ask both?

stever · August 2016

Hm, Lincoln's head is covered and my guess with my little ruler is a scooch over 4/32nds of tread left. Not exactly a lot of siping left on the sides, if there ever was any. And let me guess - a real tread measuring tool costs $40, right?

roadburner · August 2016

When we inspect a lease turn in BMW requires all tires to have a tread depth of 3/32" or the lessee gets billed for new tires.

stever · August 2016

Yeah, I usually buy tires sooner than later and won't wait until the "official" 2/32nds. But I'm curious (assuming my measurement is close), how many more miles they are good for.

thecardoc3 · August 2016

There isn't a single answer to your question. If you don't experience any adverse operating conditions, then you can push them about 20% further than they have already gone. I.E. If you have already gone 30K on them, then in about another 6K you will be on the wear bars provided your driving habits don't change. The problem is, what if you do encounter a heavy rain or ponding on the road? There is no way that the tire(s) is(are) going to perform as designed. What if a trip takes you through the mountains and you suddenly encounter some snow?

The shops are supposed to measure the tread, inspect to see if ANY of the wear bars contact the road and advise from there. They have been portrayed as being wrong ( greedy, etc.) if they recommend that you replace the tires right now, but if you have an accident in rain because of hydroplaning a cop could easily write you a ticket because of the current condition of your tires. I've seen shops end up in court when tire wear was blamed as the cause of an accident, and yet the shops couldn't fail the tire(s) when they saw the car because they were just like yours are right now. So in typical fashion, they are wrong if the tell you to replace them (based on just this information) and if you have an accident they will get to be wrong if they don't tell you to replace them.

If they were mine, (or my daughters) they would already have been replaced. This is the point in time when a lot of people end up in a situation where they say, "I'd pay anything if I could only go back in time and...."

I'll say, you have looked at them and they are on your mind as being questionable. How much do you like to have peace of mind?

stever · August 2016

Thanks Doc, yeah, these have gotten into the questionable stage this summer. Time to shop.

qbrozen · August 2016

stever said:
And let me guess - a real tread measuring tool costs $40, right?

What is a "real tread measuring tool"? I have a little pocket one that cost something like $2.99. Works great.

And, yes, that tire looks like hell. I'd have replaced them already.

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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