Midsize Sedans 2.0

[Deleted User] · August 2016

brian125 said:
cski

Best 900 dollars you will ever spend. Is the warranty transferable?

I thought you said the finish looks new Clay it down and get 3 or 4 coats of the P21's wax on it

http://www.detailedimage.com/Ask-a-Pro/p21s-concours-carnauba-wax-review/

Oh, (chuckling) I do a full Mothers gold on it every major season change We have Summer, post summer where it is 72 to 82 degrees but no humidity and a nice breeze.That is the time for a clay job and a full on wax...not a quick wax...which is half water. BTW, the car had not been washed or even quick waxed in the pics. It was 6PM and ready to thunderstorm. Al pics were shot with crapo cell phone camera. Then all of a sudden December 22nd it is Winter, Plenty of time for layer after layer of beautifying and protecting good quality wax before then.
This time of the year in Virginia we get stuck under a Bermuda High, I frequent(Samsung Galaxy J5-2016) and actually use Turtle Wax- Quick-Wax, which really shines it up and makes it slippery again. I always do it at dusk or even at night because it is 97 to 102+ here in the day time. When you wake up at 5:30 AM and it is 82 degrees already....I am NOT wiping myself out on a full wax, Waxing in direct sunlight can cause the wax to set before you get to it. Most of us dudes found that out 30 years ago. having to compound a fender and then re-wax it and hope to god the clear coat stayed on our 87 Camaro with a head snapping 215 HP 302. Friggin government and lazy [non-permissible content removed] GM. I was lucky...the 87 had Multiport F/I. The 86 had TBI -(Toilet Bowl injection)

I don't know if the warranty is transferrable but I have 3 daughters that are gonna need a car, or at least borrow a car on a regular basis. I keep the title in my name and insure them under my name so the Kia extended service plan will stay in my name. I have actually got my eyes on the new Mustang, because I am 45 and I don't wanna wait till 65, and my license will have zero points on December 1st. On December 27th, as is the tradition in my family, I am going to buy a leftover 2016 Mustang GT premium with the track package. I decided that if I am to have a Mustang, I want as many performance and comfort items I can get, and usually the leftovers are all the high end cars they have trouble moving. I will start the hunt in the fall, My car will continue to be parked here and cared for, My first daughter to graduate on the A Honor roll gets the use of the car on a more permanent basis.The other two will get cars from my mother in law from the dealership she has worked for 35 years and does payroll for the entire franchise. I like to have a plan. Now, if my mother in law finds all three of them wholesale cars, I will sell my car and buy the Mustang with a lot of cash down, or I can always get a check from my home equity line of credit. A lot to think about....but I am HARD on my cars driving-wise, and I can tell you 100% that the Optima is built NOT TO FAIL. It is not as refined as a Honda,,,,but they use them as police cars in Korea.and not the Turbos. Regular 2.4 models do 90% of the duty. Only highway patrol Optimas are Turbos. (DC area is full of South Koreans I have a couple of Korean friends).

andres3 said:
What I mean is it is so common a failure that it is a known major issue. Sounds like Recall material to me, or at least a "step up to the plate" opportunity for the manufacturer to stand behind their product.

I don't know dude. I got a letter, so I took it in ASAP. The thinking is the faster you respond to a potential fuel related failure the better, and it did fail, so, the computer shuts down the Direct Injection and you are then stuck with the low pressure fuel injector that gets you those spectacular F/E ratings. It was HARD to drive slowly. Top speed? 63 with the time I had. (Had to take the Highway for a bit it was 3 miles to get from 45 to 63 and for me: painful. Around town? Fine. However, when I got it back with a fresh, accurate pump, I swear it was, and still is...a LOT quicker. It now FEELS like 200 HP. Also, is smoother, and

andres3 said:

brian125 said:
Andres

@Edmunds has the 4cyl. Regal @9.8 sec O-60. Pretty pathetic. The turbo motor which is faster @252 h/p but suffers low end torque for its class. 0-60 7.2 sec.
252 HP and 7.2 0-60 seems like an under performer.

Does it weigh 5 tons? Does it get 30 MPG?

I'm in the camp that doesn't quite get Macan S's or SQ5's. If you want a fast car, why get a big heavy SUV that is top heavy and can't turn very quickly. I suppose if you are forced to own one car, and only one car, and you have a family to haul around......

I'd rather go the 2-car method from now on; one for fun, and one for daily duties and hauling. I have the fun car, now I need to find something cheap but nice.

AWESOME!!!! Exactly!!!! But then you still have to live FOREVER with "oh we could have gone to Aruba this year but my husband had to "blow" his Mustang engine (she has no idea what this means). "Isn't blowing an engine bad honey"? The correct answer

brian125 said:
cski

Best 900 dollars you will ever spend. Is the warranty transferable?

I thought you said the finish looks new Clay it down and get 3 or 4 coats of the P21's wax on it

http://www.detailedimage.com/Ask-a-Pro/p21s-concours-carnauba-wax-review/

Mr_Shiftright said:
7.2 isn't so bad. It's maybe one second off the mark of some expensive German cars.

Yeah but that one second kills the fun off the line. My car does 60 in 7.4 to 7.9 depending on who you believe. I believe both. It hates hot weather just like its owner. A/C is ultra cold though and rear occupants have own vents, center pull down console with cupholders, and I ran a charge line under the seats and the floormats for phone/7" Samsung Galaxy Pad3 recharging.

roadburner said:

cski said:
Oh, I will take some new pics and you can see for yourself the 5 year old vs the pics I took the day I brought it home. I will look for them ASAP. Everyone asks me "whats the secret on keeping it looking like it just rolled off the lot?" Shhhhhhhh. The secret is: WORK YOUR [non-permissible content removed] OFF CLEANING AND WAXING IT!!!!!!
Here's my wife's X3 after 12 years and 188,000 miles- it can be done:

It looks great...except that the X3 was the worst rated BMW ever. I am sure I would be pleased to drive it with a 6 cylinder, but a bad BMW is still a great car in comparison with most!!!!! Seriously though, car magazines hated it unanimously. It was their first crossover and I think it got slammed just for not being as much the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Well, the 320 never has been either, but I still remember how it felt to drive mine, and it was a 79 that the owner would give me (free) if I could dig it out of the monster snow pile the county dumped on it in 24 hours. After about 4 hours....people got the word that I would be getting the "eyesore" for free if I could dig it out. his was 20 years ago...blizzard of 96. Well I got it out, he sold it to me for $1.00 on the title, which I never gave him. A quick jump start later, and I drove it home. My girl followed me in my Z24 (87) with digidash and very rare 5 speed manual. Other than outright speed, the beater BMW was hands down more fun to drive than any car I have ever own

benjaminh · August 2016

(The computer seems to have gone crazing duplicating messages. Can it be stopped? Somehow this dialogue came to mind.)

Dave Bowman: Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
HAL: Affirmative, Dave. I read you.
Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave Bowman: What's the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave Bowman: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave Bowman: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL.
HAL: I know that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.

Back on topic.

I think at this point KIAs, Hyundais, Mazdas, Toyotas, and Hondas are all have similar reliability, quality, and durability.

I don't think VW and Ford have reached that level yet, but that's just my opinion.

andres3 · August 2016

cski said:
Adres3 said;

If there was a TSB shouldn't they step up to fix it regardless of whether you have an extended warranty or not? I know I'd be cursing if I had to spend $2,200 dollars on a fuel pump that didn't last 100K miles.

cski typically long response:

If you didn't need a tow, and it was covered under the regular factory 5/60 warranty I would think you would be pleased Do you understand how Gas Direct Injection(GDI) works? I spent zero and they changed the hi-pressure fuel pump, changed the oil and washed it....including power washing the rims and tires to get the grime off and a nice tire foam (same brand as I use). I was thrilled. It sounds like you don't like Korean cars. If I had a 3/36 warranty and it died at 46k that would be 10 YEARS over the factory warranty. No, they would NOT cover it under the terms I signed. Honda tricks people into thinking their cars are better.....and they are in some ways. The Korean cars are the same. Strong in some areas and weaker than others. You want to know why Honda ONLY HAS A 3/36????? It is not because it doesn't need a longer one, it's because they don't want to PAY FOR A LONGER ONE. That's how they got sued over all those tranny problems in 2007/08 people felt they deserved a transmission that would last longer than 40 to 75k...and I agree with them,
Kudos to Hyundai Kia and Chevy too for having the GUTS to stand behind their products long term. I can tell you that with all those horsepower and torque forces under my upcoming car, I am DAMN SURE buying a Fo** 5.0 extended warranty, for as long as they make one.

For a lot of people, including me, Honda extended those transmission warranties without much fuss or resistance, if any. It was extended free of charge.

I don't mind Korean cars, I'm just wary of the long term reliability and the fact that warranty is not transferable. Kudos to the long warranty though for original owners, but there is also some truth to Honda not needing a longer warranty because the warranty is never used (V6 transmissions being one sole exception).

Most Honda buyers understand this and wouldn't pay more for a longer warranty. For example, if Honda included a longer Hyundai like warranty but gave you a $200 deduct if you opted for the 3/36 instead; I think many would opt for the 3/36 and take the free $200 rebate up front.

I withhold any kudos to Chevy for their temporary longer term warranties though, because they were given with the idea they'd never have to be fulfilled (similar to Chrysler's lifetime versions) as they were headed into bankruptcy in a fast landslide that could only be stopped with about 60 billion bailout dollars. 60 billion pays for a lot of warranty claims.

I'm in the best warranty is the one you never have to use camp. Also I think there were 4 or 5 parts that Audi stepped up voluntarily to cover 7 years or 120K miles in my '06 A3 precisely because they didn't meet their standards of durability. I think I got 2 or 3 separate letters notifying me of these extended warranties, complete with instructions to be reimbursed if you already had spent money on the parts.

andres3 · August 2016

akirby said:
An OEM spoiler is not going to make any difference in handling on the street.

I'm not so sure about that. My car has an operable spoiler OEM and it seems to do its job well; it's not there for looks alone.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2016

Most engineers say a "real" spoiler is only effective starting at 60 mph (not too much effect) and on up from there. You might really notice the difference at 100 mph on up. If properly engineers, they aren't providing downforce, they are preventing axle lift.

[Deleted User] · August 2016

andres3 said:

cski said:
Adres3 said;

If there was a TSB shouldn't they step up to fix it regardless of whether you have an extended warranty or not? I know I'd be cursing if I had to spend $2,200 dollars on a fuel pump that didn't last 100K miles.
cski typically long response:

If you didn't need a tow, and it was covered under the regular factory 5/60 warranty I would think you would be pleased Do you understand how Gas Direct Injection(GDI) works? I spent zero and they changed the hi-pressure fuel pump, changed the oil and washed it....including power washing the rims and tires to get the grime off and a nice tire foam (same brand as I use). I was thrilled. It sounds like you don't like Korean cars. If I had a 3/36 warranty and it died at 46k that would be 10 YEARS over the factory warranty. No, they would NOT cover it under the terms I signed. Honda tricks people into thinking their cars are better.....and they are in some ways. The Korean cars are the same. Strong in some areas and weaker than others. You want to know why Honda ONLY HAS A 3/36????? It is not because it doesn't need a longer one, it's because they don't want to PAY FOR A LONGER ONE. That's how they got sued over all those tranny problems in 2007/08 people felt they deserved a transmission that would last longer than 40 to 75k...and I agree with them,
Kudos to Hyundai Kia and Chevy too for having the GUTS to stand behind their products long term. I can tell you that with all those horsepower and torque forces under my upcoming car, I am DAMN SURE buying a Fo** 5.0 extended warranty, for as long as they make one.

For a lot of people, including me, Honda extended those transmission warranties without much fuss or resistance, if any. It was extended free of charge.

I don't mind Korean cars, I'm just wary of the long term reliability and the fact that warranty is not transferable. Kudos to the long warranty though for original owners, but there is also some truth to Honda not needing a longer warranty because the warranty is never used (V6 transmissions being one sole exception).

Most Honda buyers understand this and wouldn't pay more for a longer warranty. For example, if Honda included a longer Hyundai like warranty but gave you a $200 deduct if you opted for the 3/36 instead; I think many would opt for the 3/36 and take the free $200 rebate up front.

I withhold any kudos to Chevy for their temporary longer term warranties though, because they were given with the idea they'd never have to be fulfilled (similar to Chrysler's lifetime versions) as they were headed into bankruptcy in a fast landslide that could only be stopped with about 60 billion bailout dollars. 60 billion pays for a lot of warranty claims.

I'm in the best warranty is the one you never have to use camp. Also I think there were 4 or 5 parts that Audi stepped up voluntarily to cover 7 years or 120K miles in my '06 A3 precisely because they didn't meet their standards of durability. I think I got 2 or 3 separate letters notifying me of these extended warranties, complete with instructions to be reimbursed if you already had spent money on the parts.

I think there are many ways to think about it.
In December, 2011; I was gonna buy a 4 door sedan to replace my aging and EXPENSIVE to maintain 00 Grand Cherokee Laredo V8(the new Mazda6 and new Accord were not available yet). Even though when I was on the lot I knew it was a Sonata underneath, the warranty sealed the deal. If Hyundai/Kia offered a 3/36 like Honda, their sales would plummet. Summary: People still do not completely trust them. I was one of them.

I would pay a $200 deductible in a HEARTBEAT on a $2500 ECU/BCU replacement.Just an example. You have to remember how long 10 years and 100,000 miles is.

Anyway, in our large family we like to keep paid-for cars. There are too many up-and-coming 1st-time drivers to trade in cars. Plus, I like to buy w/o a trade. Usually sell outright. Whats the hurry?

Lastly, I am here in part to document the long term reliability of my car. Almost 5 years have gone by and she still drives like new. I am impressed so far

[Deleted User] · August 2016

Hey guys, I am having trouble with things posting over and over again. I apologize. Mr Moderator, I tried clicking on your name and I couldn't.

[Deleted User] · August 2016

Ok, From now forward everything is ok. I didn't mean to or want to take over the board. I Apologize. I hadn't posted in so long that I made an error, and in no way wanted the three pictures of my car and quote for 3 other posts dragging behind them. So, I am very sorry and will keep my mouth a bit more shut. The pictures and reposting of things I already said was an accident. Also, I wasn't very nice to the 1st gen BMW X3 that his wife drives/co-owns. I apologized to him in a personal post...but thought you guys should know too that I wasn't very supportive. I suck.

berri · August 2016

I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it

stickguy · August 2016

Nice that Chris likes his car so much. My Sonata is fine. Absolutely nothing exciting about it, but does the job, comfy, lots of tech and features. Bullet proof. But I won't miss it when it goes back.

[Deleted User] · August 2016

roadburner

you just keep on cruising in that X3. It also looks quite younger than it is. What are the little "bumps" two on each side of the bumper (right under the headlights)? I will repost your picture for forum reference. I am really curious!

stickguy · August 2016

headlight squirters.

[Deleted User] · August 2016

stickguy said:
Nice that Chris likes his car so much. My Sonata is fine. Absolutely nothing exciting about it, but does the job, comfy, lots of tech and features. Bullet proof. But I won't miss it when it goes back.

Hey stickguy !

I think the changes that Kia made to the body and the interior are significant. That and the blood red color on my EX with 17" alloys,dual exhaust, fogs, leather, Sirius, Bluetooth, and huge space in back (thus the length of our cars) for such a low price made it a no-brainer to buy...and I paid $50 extra a month to pay it off early. I found out that other than driving dynamics, Car and Driver prefered the looks of the Optima over the Sonata, stating both cars lacked the stiffness and suspension tuning of the Honda and Mazda. (neither of which were on sale when I bought my car).

So, in summery, I enjoy driving a slow car fast, using the sport shift feature frequently to stay in the most controllable gear-3rd while playing race car on the highway. These little races are always friendly and we wave and go our separate ways.

I will not miss the driving dynamics, lack of real power (like over 300HP) prodigious understeer, and the lack of pedigree. I will miss all the free stuff at the dealer. Like free oil changes for life, free car washes for life, free state inspections for life and long warranty. The ability to remove and replace the giant KIA badges for the more subtle "K" badges was nice too.

As I have said before , when the kids are grown I am going to get that great american muscle car that really handles, and can also be had for a similar bargain for what you get.

Just a few more years and maybe I will shuffle over with my Hurry-cane and get one.

stickguy · August 2016

yours is the prior platform, right? I have the revised one that underpins the latest Kia.

you got the base motor or the turbo? Not sure I ever got that straight.

I first was looking at a leftover 2014 Sonata 2.0t limited, but just liked the new style (especially the interior) better.

benjaminh · August 2016

Midsize Mini Clubman $7000 off of msrp at my local dealer:

http://www.minioflouisville.com/VehicleDetails/new-2016-MINI-Cooper_Clubman--Louisville-KY/2800609173

Price $27,545
Louisville $5750 Savings! 1 - $5,750
Expires : 8/28/16
Louisville $2000 Lease Cash 2 - $2,000

And if you qualify for owner loyalty and the college grad discount you can get another 1k off. Pretty good price, but it seems to say that sales aren't so hot on this model....

Mr_Shiftright · August 2016

Minis are getting beat up pretty badly in the car mags and reliability ratings--not sure if that has something to do with it.

Sandman6472 · August 2016

Like the Mini, a lot, but am a bit weary after hearing that it's a really hard riding vehicle. My Golf, on the other hand, rides really nice and my spinal issues have never been a problem. I just like the looks of the Mini and the "coolness" factor because one doesn't see them on every corner, like a Civic. The Golf is also a vehicle that's not on every corner and I do like the looks of it. To be perfectly honest, my Golf does everything I want my daily driver to do and have no complaints except the lack of usb/aux input. A major faux pas on VW's part being that the 2015 model was a first year vehicle...they included them both in the 2016 model! My only complaint and it's a minor one.
Just hit 22K and all is well. Tires wearing very evenly and with my commute, averaging 250 miles per week. This number might be going up if I do go back to that other company but luckily, they have moved a bit closer to our house since last working there...I'll take anything I can get. Figuring doing that 2 days each week, sometimes 3, G-d willing!

The Sandman

benjaminh · August 2016

Here's a very positive review of the Clubman S, which is the more powerful model. That's the model listed for 20k at my local dealer. Considering that this car is really a BMW, it's pretty impressive that you can get it for about half the price of 320i.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caWqYFGif_Y

Mr_Shiftright · August 2016

$20K? You mean a used one? A 2016 could be run up to $35,000 no problem.

benjaminh · August 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
$20K? You mean a used one? A 2016 could be run up to $35,000 no problem.

Check out this listing:

http://www.minioflouisville.com/VehicleDetails/new-2016-MINI-Cooper_Clubman--Louisville-KY/2800609173

stickguy · August 2016

well, $1,500 of that most people don't qualify for. But could still be a nice lease deal. That is a base engine though, not a hot rod S.

I kind of like that, outside of the colors. too bad no moonroof. Wonder what my wife would do to me if I brought one of those home?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2016

benjaminh said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
$20K? You mean a used one? A 2016 could be run up to $35,000 no problem.
Check out this listing:

http://www.minioflouisville.com/VehicleDetails/new-2016-MINI-Cooper_Clubman--Louisville-KY/2800609173

Yeah, it's a gimmick, and it's not an S--it's a base model car. But still, if you somehow manage to jump through all the disclaimers and time deadlines, might not be a bad lease deal.

benjaminh · August 2016

My mistake. I thought it was an S. Still a pretty good deal for that particular car....

Mr_Shiftright · August 2016

Yep it is

roadburner · August 2016

I've visited that dealer; the NCM got under my wife's skin and she is now hesitant to even consider a Mini- especially in light of the recent long term tests that don't exactly instill confidence in the car's long-term reliability

benjaminh · August 2016

roadburner said:
I've visited that dealer; the NCM got under my wife's skin and she is now hesitant to even consider a Mini- especially in light of the recent long term tests that don't exactly instill confidence in the car's long-term reliability

Aren't BMWs known for above-average reliability? That's something that puzzles me about Mini as a brand—that it doesn't seem to have the same reliability as the parent company. In the first few years that BMW owned Mini it could be said that they were working out the kinks, but it's been 20 years now....

benjaminh · August 2016

I've now owned my new 2016 Accord EX for a little more than a month, and so far almost everything seems an improvement over my 2008 Accord EXL navi. I do miss shifting once in a while, but less often than I thought I would. My 2008 weighed about 100 pounds more and yet had less torque, and so it felt underpowered even when shifting for myself. The 2016 has a direct-injected engine and a little less weight, and so is faster to 60 by about a second, which is significant.

The 2008 was also almost a little bit Buick-like in its suspension. It wasn't floaty or wallowy unless you really pushed it around corners—but once in a while I did, just for fun. The new Accord is more sporty and less floaty. It's not a BMW—although BMWs themselves have become softer in recent years except for the performance models—but it is fun to drive in a slightly aggressive way.

The tires are nice enough, being Goodyear Assurance V-rated, but they are designed as much for economy as for grip, and so a little bit of tire squeal can be heard going around corners with some speed. It's not like a 70s cop show, or anything, but....

Anyway, I was thinking that today's midsize cars are more or less the equivalent in the market of a Ford LTD from 1972:

benjaminh · August 2016

I think Ford made and sold more than half a million LTDs back in 1972. Wasn't it the best selling car in America? I'm sure production numbers are out there somewhere, but I'm not seeing them. Calling Andre1969?

Anyway, I did find these stats. Common engine for the 1972 LTD was a 400 cu inch V-8, which is over 6 liters. Weight was c. 4200 pounds, which is not that bad considering it was 216 inches long and 79 inches wide. Still, that's about 1000 pounds more than today's midsize cars, which except for hip room probably have almost the same interior room as an LTD. I think you'd probably get about 10 mpg in combined city/hwy driving in an LTD.

From the mid-1960s to early 1970s Ford used to advertise that its LTD was quieter than a Rolls Royce:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r18YRP-jWAY

m6user · August 2016

Ford Torino was the midsize Ford of that time. LTD was always full size. Actually Galaxie was but the LTD was a dolled up Galaxie.

akirby · August 2016

benjaminh said:

Aren't BMWs known for above-average reliability? .

Not at all. Average at best and some models have been below average.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2016

About industry average for problems, not better not worse.

benjaminh · August 2016

m6user said:
Ford Torino was the midsize Ford of that time. LTD was always full size. Actually Galaxie was but the LTD was a dolled up Galaxie.

Good point. But when it comes to the best-selling car in America for decades, from the 40s to the early 70s, it was the full-size Ford or Chevy, and now it's the large midsize Toyota Camry, with the Accord in a strong second place year after year. And the Sonata even counts as "full size" if you take the EPAs measurement into account.

The LTD was the nice and even luxurious car that the middle class could afford, kind of in the same way a loaded Camry, Accord, Optima, Sonata, Mazda6, Fusion, Altima, etc. is today.

roadburner · August 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
About industry average for problems, not better not worse.

And some-such as the 2 Series- are considerably above average on the reliability metrics. And as always, the quality of a dealer's service department makes a huge difference in the ownership experience. That's one of the reasons I passed on both a Mustang GT and a Golf R- my local Ford and VW dealers refuse to employ techs with opposable thumbs.

m6user · August 2016

No, the LTD was the equivalent of Buick LaCrosse or Toyota Avalon. The LTD didn't sell in huge numbers. Probably similar to the Camry/Avalon ratio. There was probably three or four Galaxies sold for every LTD. Again, the Torino and Gran Torino were the midsize cars and comparable to today's Camcords. Then you had the compact Maverick and the subC Pinto. I'm not forgetting Mustang or Tbird but they were more specialty cars.

benjaminh · August 2016

m6user said:
No, the LTD was the equivalent of Buick LaCrosse or Toyota Avalon. The LTD didn't sell in huge numbers. Probably similar to the Camry/Avalon ratio. There was probably three or four Galaxies sold for every LTD. Again, the Torino and Gran Torino were the midsize cars and comparable to today's Camcords. Then you had the compact Maverick and the subC Pinto. I'm not forgetting Mustang or Tbird but they were more specialty cars.

Yes, you're right, but....

In 1972 if you count all the full-size Fords, we are talking production and sales of about 800,000. And so that was the big middle of the market in a way that midsize sedans are today. Of course the middle of the market is also defined by RAV4s, CRVs, Escapes, etc., which are in a way the compact station wagons of today's market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Galaxie

berri · August 2016

A couple of years later and the LTD pretty much pushed the Galaxie out.

ab348 · August 2016

Yeah, Ford did what domestic automakers always did back then. They cheapened up the top-line model and created a new one, in this case the LTD Brougham, above it with pretty much the same level of trim the older model used to have. By '72 or so the regular LTD interior looked like a Galaxie of 5 years earlier.

berri · August 2016

I'm sorry, but even back then names like Galaxie and Impala beat the heck out of LTD or Caprice in my book - brought out my "Fury"

thebean · August 2016

berri said:

I'm sorry, but even back then names like Galaxie and Impala beat the heck out of LTD or Caprice in my book - brought out my "Fury"

Not to mention how much better they are than what we have today, like TLX, Q37, ATS, etc.

berri · August 2016

Slow down Bean, that example is starting to look like a flight plan routing or a cryptography message

Mr_Shiftright · August 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:

benjaminh said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
$20K? You mean a used one? A 2016 could be run up to $35,000 no problem.
Check out this listing:

http://www.minioflouisville.com/VehicleDetails/new-2016-MINI-Cooper_Clubman--Louisville-KY/2800609173
Yeah, it's a gimmick, and it's not an S--it's a base model car. But still, if you somehow manage to jump through all the disclaimers and time deadlines, might not be a bad lease deal.

Quote from Consumer Reports (2015)

"The Mini Cooper S has the worst history among all cars we have tracked over the past decade."

andres3 · August 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

benjaminh said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
$20K? You mean a used one? A 2016 could be run up to $35,000 no problem.
Check out this listing:

http://www.minioflouisville.com/VehicleDetails/new-2016-MINI-Cooper_Clubman--Louisville-KY/2800609173
Yeah, it's a gimmick, and it's not an S--it's a base model car. But still, if you somehow manage to jump through all the disclaimers and time deadlines, might not be a bad lease deal.
Quote from Consumer Reports (2015)

"The Mini Cooper S has the worst history among all cars we have tracked over the past decade."

Wow, that's quite the accomplishment given how lowly some Jeep and Fiat and Chrysler's do.

brian125 · August 2016

My Bil bought a 2013 CPO JGJ 4 months ago 26k on the clock. He has been back 4/5 times to dealer with some minor problems and a ongoing transmission slip between 2 / 3rd gear. I heard Chrysler announce a recall on the Trans recently. These trucks look sharp but reliability is awful.

Chrysler new T&C minivan looks really nice they did a good job on this model.
Reviews look good................ jury will be out on reliability.

benjaminh · August 2016

I wonder what the Consumer Reports' record is on the VW Passat? With a c. 23k base msrp, it is one of the least expensive midsize sedans out there, and discounts of as much as 6k at are available at my local dealer. For instance, here's one for less than 18k:

http://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/VehicleDetails/new-2016-Volkswagen-Passat-4dr_Sdn_1.8T_Auto_S_PZEV-Louisville-KY/2666989393

"NEW 2016 VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT 4DR SDN 1.8T AUTO S PZEV BACHMAN SUMMER SALE PRICE: $17,370"

I think the Passat has the only standard turbo engine among midsize cars. But check out this review of that turbo's reliability from an owner who wrote a review for Edmunds:

"32k miles and 1.8t rear main seal blows out!!!!

by James D. on Jul 1, 2016
Vehicle: 2016 Volkswagen Passat

I bought this car in March and do a lot of highway driving, not racing it around. Highway driving is easy: I drive conservatively and all my fluid changes have been done on time. Come to find out, I'm blowing smoke out the rear, and I blew a rear main seal on the engine and may have done some internal engine damage, too. The repair bill was nearly $3,000, but fortunately for me, it was covered under warranty. I looked up a VW tech I went to high school with who works for a large VW dealership in Dallas, and he says, and I quote, "VW's rear main seal design on their 1.8t's have been pure garbage for some time, and VW knows about this. We've seen a few Passat rear-main blowouts already. It's the same motor with the same problem the Golfs and Jettas had. This is how we make our money. Once the 36K mile warranty expires, the cost is no longer (negotiable, as always to the dealership) by VW. So the owner gets screwed." He went on to say, "Most 1.8t's are designed to hit 45K miles without serious problems, but with the 2014 to 2016 Passats, we're seeing this problem all the time. What's an owner to do? Sit around and say, 'No, I'm not going to repair this.' They end up forking over the $2600 and that's that, but in the end run, we lose another customer." He thinks VW does this by design, and to me, it's no wonder after realizing what they did with Dieselgate, with an aim to deceive. I should have gone with an Accord but was tempted by the extra inch or so of front-seat leg room the Passat offered me. BEWARE DO NOT BUY THIS CAR UNLESS YOU HAVE MONEY TO FIX IT."

http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/passat/2016/sedan/review/

Even after the diesel scandal, as well as my own nightmare experience with owning a VW 20 years ago, I can't quite believe the conspiracy theory here. But it's true VWs in general aren't known for their low cost and trouble-free ownership experiences. It may not be a conspiracy, but I don't think VW is focused on quality, reliability, and durability in the same way that Toyota, Honda, Mazda, etc. have been for several decades now.

andres3 · August 2016

benjaminh said:
I wonder what the Consumer Reports' record is on the VW Passat? With a c. 23k base msrp, it is one of the least expensive midsize sedans out there, and discounts of as much as 6k at are available at my local dealer. For instance, here's one for less than 18k:

http://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/VehicleDetails/new-2016-Volkswagen-Passat-4dr_Sdn_1.8T_Auto_S_PZEV-Louisville-KY/2666989393

"NEW 2016 VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT 4DR SDN 1.8T AUTO S PZEV BACHMAN SUMMER SALE PRICE: $17,370"

I think the Passat has the only standard turbo engine among midsize cars. But check out this review of that turbo's reliability from an owner who wrote a review for Edmunds:

"32k miles and 1.8t rear main seal blows out!!!!

by James D. on Jul 1, 2016
Vehicle: 2016 Volkswagen Passat

I bought this car in March and do a lot of highway driving, not racing it around. Highway driving is easy: I drive conservatively and all my fluid changes have been done on time. Come to find out, I'm blowing smoke out the rear, and I blew a rear main seal on the engine and may have done some internal engine damage, too. The repair bill was nearly $3,000, but fortunately for me, it was covered under warranty. I looked up a VW tech I went to high school with who works for a large VW dealership in Dallas, and he says, and I quote, "VW's rear main seal design on their 1.8t's have been pure garbage for some time, and VW knows about this. We've seen a few Passat rear-main blowouts already. It's the same motor with the same problem the Golfs and Jettas had. This is how we make our money. Once the 36K mile warranty expires, the cost is no longer (negotiable, as always to the dealership) by VW. So the owner gets screwed." He went on to say, "Most 1.8t's are designed to hit 45K miles without serious problems, but with the 2014 to 2016 Passats, we're seeing this problem all the time. What's an owner to do? Sit around and say, 'No, I'm not going to repair this.' They end up forking over the $2600 and that's that, but in the end run, we lose another customer." He thinks VW does this by design, and to me, it's no wonder after realizing what they did with Dieselgate, with an aim to deceive. I should have gone with an Accord but was tempted by the extra inch or so of front-seat leg room the Passat offered me. BEWARE DO NOT BUY THIS CAR UNLESS YOU HAVE MONEY TO FIX IT."

http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/passat/2016/sedan/review/

Even after the diesel scandal, as well as my own nightmare experience with owning a VW 20 years ago, I can't quite believe the conspiracy theory here. But it's true VWs in general aren't known for their low cost and trouble-free ownership experiences. It may not be a conspiracy, but I don't think VW is focused on quality, reliability, and durability in the same way that Toyota, Honda, Mazda, etc. have been for several decades now.

Mazda? Really? I haven't heard much good about Mazda's when it comes to reliability and durability. I've heard and seen a lot of bad. People generalize about all Japanese cars when really it is just Toyota and Honda that earned that reputation of bulletproof reliability. I don't think Nissan nor Mazda ever contributed much to that image; other than being competent and mediocre at longevity (not lemons, but not like the top 2 Japanese makes).

suydam · August 2016

I think of both Mazda and Nissans as very reliable and they usually get good ratings. I've owned several Mazdas and they've all lasted a long time.

andres3 · August 2016

suydam said:
I think of both Mazda and Nissans as very reliable and they usually get good ratings. I've owned several Mazdas and they've all lasted a long time.

Care to list which ones performed well long term?

I can list a mid 00's Mazda 3 and an '09 Mazda 6 as less than stellar examples of durability for a friend and brother in law. Also, there are stories here on the forums about troublesome rotary engines in the RX models. There is one guy that had tracked a Mazdaspeed 3 for quite a while successfully.

Seems to be hit or miss, with the misses not being terrible, but certainly far from ideal. Mazda used to have a 4year/50K warranty but now they pretend they are Toyota or Honda with the short version.

imidazol97 · August 2016

benjaminh said:

I think the Passat has the only standard turbo engine among midsize cars.

The 2016 Malibu has a 1.5 Turbo standard and 2.0 Turbo standard on others or an option. A hybrid may be available but not standard.

suydam · August 2016

I've owned a Mazda 323, 626 hatch, a 6 wagon, and I'm about to buy a 3 hatch. But my experience is just anecdotal. If you look at large data sets like CR, that's more meaningful.

ab348 · August 2016

andres3 said:

Mazda? Really? I haven't heard much good about Mazda's when it comes to reliability and durability. I've heard and seen a lot of bad. People generalize about all Japanese cars when really it is just Toyota and Honda that earned that reputation of bulletproof reliability. I don't think Nissan nor Mazda ever contributed much to that image; other than being competent and mediocre at longevity (not lemons, but not like the top 2 Japanese makes).

I agree. Mazda sells a lot of 3s and CX5s up here in Canada and I've known a lot of people who bought the,. They are not robust cars. Nissans are just cheap cars.

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