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Comments
Acura TSX:
6-speed manual/5-speed auto = $27,035
6-speed manual/5-speed auto/nav = $29,035
------------------------------------------------
Legacy GT sedan:
5-speed manual = $25,995
5EAT = $27,195
Legacy GT Limited sedan:
5-speed manual = $28,495
5EAT = $29,695
The Acura comes standard with HIDs, a moonroof and leather, but no AWD. It has a 6-speed manual, and it needs it due to a typical somewhat peaky engine. An excellent navigation system is available.
The Legacy has AWD, a more powerful engine, with much better torque. It doesn't have a 6-speed manual, but probably doesn't need one as much as the Acura does. There is no moonroof on base GT models. HIDs and NAV are MIA, even on Limited models.
Bob
All these prices INCLUDE the $575 destination charge
2005 OUTBACK INVOICE PRICING:
2.5i - $22,668
2.5i LTD - $25,398
**add roughly 1,000 for 4-speed automatic transmission
2.5 XT - $26,308
2.5 XT LTD - $28,766
**add roughly 1,200 for 5-speed automatic transmission
3.0R Sedan - $29,039
3.0R LL Bean - $30,131
3.0R VDC - $31,223
2005 LEGACY INVOICE PRICES:
2.5i Sedan - $19,936
2.5i Sedan LTD - $23,076
2.5i Wagon - $20,848
2.5i Wagon LTD - $24,171
**add roughly 1,000 for 4-speed automatic transmission
2.5GT Sedan - $24,487
2.5GT Sedan LTD - $26,763
2.5GT Wagon - $25,398
2.5GT Wagon LTD - $27,856
**add roughly 1,200 for 5-speed automatic transmission
Bob
I don't care what people say but the 300C and G35 are options to my liking, if the Leg can't come through ;-)
There's also a link here for the same info on the Outback!
Bob
Premium Package w/o Full-size Spare Tire
Includes Bose premium 200-watt, 7-speaker audio system with AM/FM cassette, RDS and Nd woofer, power tilt/slide glass sunroof with one-touch open/close and pinch protection, dual zone climate control with rear vents and interior air filter, driver's seat memory with entry/exit assist, 4-way power adjustable passenger seat, reclining rear seats with adjustable outboard head restraints, Homelink Universal Transceiver, auto-dimming rearview mirror and all power windows one-touch up/down.
The G35 already comes with leather seats and HIDs. How's that compare to the Ltd package on the Legacy/OB?
Ken
they have to find meaningful differentiation, and capitalize on it.
~c
While the GT handles very decently when driven aggressively, my Accord Coupe handles just as well if not better. However, in doing so, it does it with aplomb and without the degree of mechanical drag that I feel, and much higher noise level I hear due to the extra two wheels being driven, while driving my GT.
I'm not suggesting that anyone here made anything less than the best decision in purchasing their automobile. What I'm trying to convey, is that there are lots of fine choices out there. I suggest that it's not necessary to become defensive of anyone's choice and that it doesn't make much sense for anyone to state how great a vehicle drives when it is obvious that they've never driven it, i.e the 2005 Legacy.
While we enthusiasts may not wish to admit it, our stock Subarus are no more "drivers cars" than their nearest competition. Except perhaps for those few racers among us, or the rest of us while gently accelerating on snow and ice.
OK 'nuf said. I'm done with this subject.
We just have different opinions about what may be items of personal preference.
If you are happy with your Accord and think it beats the Legacy you are entitled to your opinion, but it is only your opinion.
I stated in a previous post that I had owned 5 Accords I actually owned seven. 76-79-83-88-89-90-93. Now I must have liked them cause I kept buying them, but refinement and quiet were not terms that I would throw lightly at them.
They were all more than a little noisy especially at highway speeds. I bought My 01 GT wagon because of a lack of Accord wagon.
After seven Accords I can state without reservation that the legacy is a way more refined car than any of my Accords and I do not say that lightly I was a died in the wool Accord lover.
Cheers Pat.
-Frank P.
But to any of us who dare call themselves an enthusiest it is much more than that. It also does not have to be a Lambo or any other exotic car either as you infer it has to be in order to escape your scathing appliance label.
Actually in terms of reliability and overall driving enjoyment I would pick my GT over most exotics any day. At least when I start out on a journey I can be pretty sure I am gonna reach my destination, most of the time with an exotic car thats a crapshoot:-)
Cheers Pat.
CRaig
The 2003-2004 Accords are the seventh generation of the line, obviously with more modern technology, refinement and features than your pre-1994 vehicles.
My use of the word "appliance" was not my "scathing appliance label". It was, in fact, a direct quote from kenoka's post #13964.
(I'm therefore totally qualified to state that my Subaru, as well as those owned by everyone on this board is just that, an appliance. We are not talking Maserati and Lamborghini here folks, just a good pedestrian AWD vehicle)
By this line of reasoning that would render Maserati and Lamborghini appliances also, after all they are just cars are they not?
Also my Honda observations are not solely based on my last 11 year old Honda, I drove my buddy's 2002 Accord and although I never said anything to him I did not like it much. After he had driven my GT wagon to Toronto and back (he needed the use of a wagon to move some stuff we exchanged cars for a weekend)
Within a week of the Toronto trip he exchanged his Accord for an 03 GT wagon he was amazed at the lack of road and windnoise in my car compared to the Accord, and he had thought wagons were inherently noisier than Sedans.
In the end Blane if you are happy with your Accord good for you, but do not use it to disparage a car nobody here has even driven yet, and lastly do not disparage others choice of cars by labeling them all just appliances.
And while Accords have no doubt gotten more refined over the years they have engineered the excitement out of them IMHO, they are about as exciting to drive now as a Buick Century.
Since we are not going to agree lets agree to diagree and leave it at that.
Cheers Pat.
Colin: 8 mpg? I got 17 while towing! 21 mpg on the sand! :oO
Let's analyze Dave's analysis (to be redundant):
$2500-$2700 for LTD pkg on GT gets you:
8 way power driver's seat
4 way power passenger seat w/ manual lumbar
Moonroof
Leather trim upholstery
The first two have little to no value to me, but I guess that's a $400 option or so on other brands. The moonroof is worth $1200 for its size. $900 for leather. So maybe it is priced fairly.
I'd still rather get the moonroof only, by itself, for $1200.
But you look at invoice prices and they seem pretty reasonable. While the TSX is better equipped, it's still just a N/A 4 cylinder with very little torque. Plus it sells near MSRP, so you'll be able to get a Legacy for less (base GT) or about the same (GT LTD).
-juice
The Accord is the mid-size sedan standard so naturally it's the car people will compare pricing to. The major issues I have with that is that the Accord is still *not* sporty, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Sure, an Accord coupe with the V6 and the MT has its appeal, but you can't get that combination in a sedan, and the suspension is still biased towards comfort.
Ed took his Forester and in his rookie outing left every V6 Accord in that autocross in his wake. OK, that was the last generation Accord V6, but it was the last generation Forester with the base 2.5l engine! You don't think a new Legacy with a turbo would run circles around an Accord V6? I do. The TSX would be a better challenger because it is lighter and more nimble.
The TSX is, in my opinion, and Bob's, a more natural competitor. It's smaller, same size as Legacy, plus sportier. It's closer in every way imaginable.
On paper, you take the EPA mpg and multiply by peak HP, divide by the cost in dollars, subtract the cost to insure and multiply by the residual value as a percentage then add interior passenger space in cubes and the total number of stars NHTSA gave it and you get...
a car that lost to Ed's quasi-SUV in autocross.
Legacy GT will sell to people who care about AWD, performance, and handling. 99% of the market will bypass the Subaru dealer and buy a Honda or something else, Subaru will sell to that other 1%. And that's just fine with them.
-juice
Cheers Pat.
The Baja is not connecting with the young buyers at whom it was aimed, Saito said at the launch here of the redesigned Legacy and Outback.
Most people associate the Legacy and Outback as vehicles for a more mature audience, than that of say the Impreza audience. The same holds true for the Baja because it is an offshoot of the Outback. So maybe Subaru was wrong from the very beginning, basing this vehicle off the Outback? Perhaps the whole idea was doomed from the beginning, trying to target the younger audience with this vehicle?
Most Baja buyers are over 40.
What’s wrong with that? These are the folks with the $$$, not the young kids. The vehicle is perfect for folks who putter around the house, and gardeners.
Saito said the cost to develop the Baja was low, but poor sales may not justify a new generation.
There’s an old saying in the graphic design business that there’s never enough money to do it right the first time, but (when it fails) there’s always money to do it over. Yeah, Subaru did the Baja on the cheap, and now they’re paying for it.
"Subaru has done a good job making it more affordable to young people by taking off features," says Dale Walker, former dealer council chairman and owner of Walker's Renton Subaru in Renton, Wash.
I disagree. Less is not more in this case. Less is less
But he says young buyers tend to purchase trucks from other Japanese makes.
Why? Because they offer features not available on the Baja, such as real utility and real off-road ability.
The Japanese company decided to produce the Baja after a concept version received rave reviews at the 2000 Los Angeles auto show.
Yeah but somewhere between *concept* and *production* the Baja lost most of what was appealing about the ST-X. There’s a lesson to be learned here (actually many lessons to be learned here).
The Baja originally was priced at more than $24,000, and sold poorly from the start. Subaru tried to whip up demand in February 2003 by offering a $22,545 Baja Sport version without the standard leather interior and other features. In August it offered a $2,000 incentive on the original Baja and a $1,000 cash rebate on the Sport model. In a bid to lure younger buyers, the Baja Turbo was launched in December at $24,545, including destination. The Turbo has a 2.5-liter engine based on the powerplant in the popular Impreza as well as larger wheels and an upgraded audio system. The original Baja was dropped at the end of 2003. Subaru continues to offer customer cash incentives of up to $1,000 on the Sport and Turbo models.
Too little, too late.
Subaru will make more changes to the vehicle for the 2005 model year. "We are adding the things that were concerns - that it didn't have a locking hard cover in the back. There will be a locking hard cover available next year," says Rick Crosson, vice president of marketing.
Again, too little, too late.
Subaru is considering lowering the price again for the 2006 model year. Crosson says Subaru may remove some of the body cladding, "which will enable us to do that, but we aren't set on it." For 2006, Subaru is also thinking of changing the tailgate "to make it more user-friendly," says Crosson. He says the current design is "a bit cumbersome."
Should have been that way from the get-go.
The only thing Subaru isn't changing is the advertising. The Baja is "attracting gardeners vs. the young surfer crowd, but we still put it out there as youthful and sporty," says Crosson. "In marketing it is probably better to gear (advertising) to the youthful spirit than the nonyouthful."
Sounds like they still don’t know what they’re doing, or who they’re targeting this vehicle for
Bob
-mike
From what I've read numerous times over the last few years, surveys indicate that less than five percent of SUVs ever get farther off-road than the local supermarket parking lot. So I'll presume that AWD sedans, such as those that we own, are probably off-road significantly less than even that miniscule percentage. If I have to do the rare drive "on a damp backroad", I have no problem in occasionally slowing down the five mph that would make me feel more in control. Sure, it's more fun to be on the cutting edge of control, but bodywork repairs cost money and raise insurance premiums.
Even YOU will concede that we are not discussing autocross or track use of the two brands of sedans for which I've suggested price comparisons. I've done that to try to illustrate that there are other fine choices for the vast majority of buyers.
Here's something from today's news:
http://www.hwysafety.org/news_releases/2004/pr041804.htm
They didn't test that many vehicles, but note which two came out on top in the side-impact tests:
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summary_midinexp- .htm
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summary_smsuv_cu- - - rrent.htm
Notice which make is on top and then look where Toyota is ;-)
-Frank P.
I have several relatives that I suggest to get Honda/Camry since they buy the car, drive it to work and home and wouldn't know the difference nor appreciate it...
-mike
I've no argument that the Impreza-platform Forester did extremely well in crash testing.
My concerns are with the Legacy platform versus its competition.
I believe that if you speak with the vast majority of Subaru owners, not necessarily the enthusiasts on this board, you will find that they do not view their vehicles as any more "driver's cars" as do owners of Accord Coupes.
I guess then though by your judgement, all subie owners should have Accords/Camrys since they are superior? Just not sure what you are getting at here is all....
-mike
I consider myself an "enthusiast" too. That's one reason that I own the V6 Coupe with all the goodies. It's also the reason that I own the GT Limited.
However, even though we've never met, I'll guarantee that at least 85% of your own driving is also "drive it to work and home".
-Frank P.
A lot of times When a guy defends something this hard it is more to justify his purchase to himself than to anybody else.
Cheers Pat.
Even though I may have to drive to/from work, being an enthusiasts I make the most out of every trip in my car, as those on here that know me, every road is practice for the track just at lower speeds.
-mike
-Frank P.
Hmmm not sure what to say on future models...
-mike
Bob
Look up the last test drive of the Accord V6 sedan in C&D. In the same issue they had a test of near-luxury sedans.
Impressively, the 0-60 for the Accord beat out all the more expensive cars. A great feat, and many customers don't look beyond that number.
But if and when you do, you'll notice the braking and lateral grip numbers were below the worst of the near-luxury cars in that test.
Now I'll admit, everyone wants a peppy car, but how about some balance?
The Legacy just might have it all. That's the issue. Maybe 95% of drivers won't notice, but this is a car for the other 5%.
-juice
If you don't need AWD don't pay for it. But for someone who wants a wagon and wants AWD, I think the new Legacy and Outback are priced very competitively across various equipment and HP levels.
And...
<swampy puts his virtual hands over juice's mouth>
MMMMPH!
-juice
I promise that this is my last post on the subject, but I feel that I should address your post #13993 regarding lateral grip, etc. and Mike's and Pat's concerns about "enthusiast" cars (meaning, as I believe we all understand the term, those that "handle" extremely well, particularly at speed).
As a preface, I've said several times that I loved my 1996 Legacy GT and I love my 2002 Legacy GT Limited (both 4 door sedans). However, I'm not blinded by faith in my enthusiasm for the brand, technology or model. I try to keep an open mind to other concepts.
The following are three exerpts from the January 2003 Consumer Reports comparo of the Subaru Legacy L Special Edition 2.5 liter four sedan/Honda Accord EX 2.4 liter four sedan/Saturn L200 2.2 liter four sedan (all automatics). Consumer Reports tests all vehicles on their Connecticut track. I'll note right here that the Legacy was not the GT model with somewhat better suspension/handling goodies
"The Legacy delivers a supple ride and handles with the agility of a European sports sedan, but it is not as forgiving at its handling limits."
"All-wheel drive is an advantage in slippery conditions, but takes its toll on acceleration and fuel economy."
"The steering is quick and precise, and the car handles twisty roads well. But when pushed beyond its handling limits, the tail tended to slide out abruptly. Though controllable, that made it a challenge to get through our avoidance maneuver."
While the preliminary data indicates that the 2005 Legacy line will be a great leap forward, only time will tell. Right now, the pricing that we've seen indicates that a loaded GT (the way I'd probably buy one) will be priced too high for a Subaru in today's crowded AWD sedan market. When I'm again in the market for a new AWD vehicle for my wife, Subaru will no doubt be at the top of the list to consider.
That's it. I'm done with the subject too. Let's move on.
-mike
-Frank P.
Craig
Bob
not as forgiving at its handling limits
Anyone else read that as "fun"? It means you can wag the tail. CR is looking for a safe car that is devoid of excitement, which is fine for them, not me.
takes its toll on acceleration
The turbo has enough excess efficiency to overcome that extra drag. Would you apply that phrase to the Forester XT?
Keep in mind you're comparing a used 2002 Subie to a brand new car in the honeymoon stage of new car ownership. Not to mention it's the new generation vs. an older generation Subie.
It would be interesting if your wife indeed bought a 2005 Legacy GT, and then we heard your opinion a year from now. You might be saying all the same things about your used Accord.
-juice